:00:00. > :00:09.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:10. > :00:12.Two months ago, Turkey's elected government managed to survive
:00:13. > :00:21.Not necessarily - not if you regard freedom of expression
:00:22. > :00:24.and an independent judiciary as prerequisites of
:00:25. > :00:31.Thousands of judges, journalists, civil servants have been locked up
:00:32. > :00:37.My guest today is Ece Temelkuran, a prominent writer and journalist
:00:38. > :00:43.who knows how difficult it can be to speak out in Erdogan's Turkey.
:00:44. > :01:25.Thank you for having me. Let's start with what is happening in Turkey
:01:26. > :01:29.today and has been happening for the last couple of months. As everything
:01:30. > :01:37.that happened since that attended crew, as taken you by surprise or
:01:38. > :01:40.not width the coup, it did. But the things that happened afterwards, not
:01:41. > :01:48.really -- attempted that matter. Because everybody is talking about
:01:49. > :01:55.if this was a staged act or not, or if it was a real coup attempt. Your
:01:56. > :02:01.view? I think it was a real coup attempt. When things don't go the
:02:02. > :02:06.way we think they go, the one who benefit from the incident is the one
:02:07. > :02:09.who creates the incident. That rule does not really apply every time in
:02:10. > :02:17.middle eastern countries. People thought since the president is
:02:18. > :02:20.benefiting from the situation, he might have staged this act, which
:02:21. > :02:27.was not the case, I think. His political career has been built on
:02:28. > :02:33.this turning crashes into opportunities. It was not surprising
:02:34. > :02:42.that he would try to restrict them himself even more after the coup,
:02:43. > :02:49.which is legitimate in many people's eyes at the moment. -- crisis. You
:02:50. > :02:56.use that interesting phrase, turning a crisis into an opportunity. Sorry
:02:57. > :03:00.to interrupt. I do it all the time. I am just trying to set some rules
:03:01. > :03:07.in the hope you don't do it. His political career started at a
:03:08. > :03:12.certain point when he was in prison, and when he was out of the prison,
:03:13. > :03:18.he was a very strong leader already. From that time going on throughout
:03:19. > :03:23.his career, he did a similar thing and turned crises into
:03:24. > :03:31.opportunities, which is brilliant. You made a point several times of
:03:32. > :03:34.repeating a pump, in 1997, after a very complex moment in Turkish
:03:35. > :03:39.political history -- poem. Another attempted coup of a sort. President
:03:40. > :03:45.Erdogan addressed a crowd while under pressure, and he said the
:03:46. > :03:54.minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosque is our barracks,
:03:55. > :03:58.the divine army await our faith. Because you regard that as such a
:03:59. > :04:03.seminal moment, is a true therefore to say the you believe President
:04:04. > :04:08.Erdogan's career has been something where from the beginning he has been
:04:09. > :04:12.a man on a mission and a mission which involves authoritarianism in
:04:13. > :04:19.the name of Islam? I have been a critic of this government from the
:04:20. > :04:22.very beginning. I am not one of those who love this government in
:04:23. > :04:29.the beginning and all of a sudden understood there were frittering
:04:30. > :04:34.inclinations in this regime. -- authoritarian. I would say it was
:04:35. > :04:39.significant and obvious, it was apparent from the beginning. When
:04:40. > :04:43.you know Turkish history, it was supposed to be so. This government
:04:44. > :04:49.was supposed to be authoritarian. We have to go back to the 1980 coup,
:04:50. > :04:55.which all of the leftists and progressive people created millions
:04:56. > :05:03.of exiles and imprisonments, torture cases and so on. You were left with
:05:04. > :05:09.very strong conservative society, their much a conservative society
:05:10. > :05:15.and a strong right-wing politics. I would say when you look throughout
:05:16. > :05:23.time, this government was, this Turkey, has been the outcome of the
:05:24. > :05:30.1980 coup. They are different brands of authoritarianism introduces true.
:05:31. > :05:37.Every brand. -- in Turkish history. Here are a few figures. 130 media
:05:38. > :05:43.organisations shut down since the coup. 45 newspapers, 29 publishing
:05:44. > :05:48.houses, radio stations, 16 television stations, magazines,
:05:49. > :05:52.three news agencies, they have all been in one way or another
:05:53. > :05:57.interfered with or intervene with or shut down by the Turkish government.
:05:58. > :06:01.The liberal secular side of Turkish politics is saying this is worse,
:06:02. > :06:09.the repression is worse then we saw with the military dictatorships. Do
:06:10. > :06:13.you say that? It is tragic that we have these two options only, either
:06:14. > :06:21.military dictatorship or this kind of operation. -- oppression. I don't
:06:22. > :06:25.want to make a comparison. Why not? Because it is not the only option,
:06:26. > :06:31.these are not the only options. They are the two strands of your history
:06:32. > :06:35.so it is easy to make a comparison. I wonder if you don't want to
:06:36. > :06:41.because... Is like no, it is not. There are many dichotomies repeated
:06:42. > :06:46.the mainstream media. It is either military people or conservative
:06:47. > :06:58.right-wing religious authoritarian regime. That is not a right way of
:06:59. > :07:01.looking at things. It assumes that military is secular and therefore
:07:02. > :07:07.against the religious movement. It is not like that. In the 1980 coup,
:07:08. > :07:12.it was the first time the military approved the brigade free religious
:07:13. > :07:22.lessons in Turkey. Actually, the military authority approved and
:07:23. > :07:36.supported actively the religious movements and the other two ago when
:07:37. > :07:41.-- Fethullah Gulen, which is supposedly responsible for this
:07:42. > :07:45.coup. Right now, Turks are being encouraged by the government to make
:07:46. > :07:51.a binary choice. President Erdogan is essentially using the language of
:07:52. > :07:55.George W Bush after 9- 11. You are either with us or against us. He is
:07:56. > :07:59.representing the state, democracy and the survival of a great Turkey.
:08:00. > :08:04.He says those against whom are enemies of the state and traitors.
:08:05. > :08:08.Whose side are you on? I am trying to BB story teller and not to take
:08:09. > :08:13.sides, I want to tell the whole story, the entire story. Once you
:08:14. > :08:17.take one side, you don't hear the other side, and more importantly,
:08:18. > :08:23.the other side does not hear you. There is no room, in order to
:08:24. > :08:31.respect. It is an extremely polarised society -- in all due
:08:32. > :08:36.respect. All sites have been hating each other, and that hurts turns to
:08:37. > :08:41.disgust. People don't want to see the other cohabit with the other.
:08:42. > :08:47.That is a very dangerous thing. You rather neatly dodged my whose side
:08:48. > :08:54.are you on question. I will come back to it. You have a history with
:08:55. > :08:58.present anyone. In 2012, you were a prominent correspondent with the
:08:59. > :09:04.Haberturk newspaper and wrote vitriolic columns ticking on
:09:05. > :09:09.President Erdogan directly. -- taking on. You addressing directly
:09:10. > :09:13.and say, so you give the orders, my commander, but I am not listening to
:09:14. > :09:19.you any more. We are the rest of this country. We will not listen to
:09:20. > :09:22.your orders any more. In President Erdogan's mine, that probably sounds
:09:23. > :09:29.like in a sense you are pre-empting the coup, questioning... You are
:09:30. > :09:35.putting ideas in people's minds. It was years ago. Secondly, it was not
:09:36. > :09:39.about President Erdogan, it was about the massacre that happened on
:09:40. > :09:46.the border that accidentally killed a dozen kids. You say we are the
:09:47. > :09:51.rest of the country. Because of that article, and a 32nd telephone
:09:52. > :10:00.call... You were fired, tracked down. You have continued writing and
:10:01. > :10:03.you have a prominent voice in and out of Turkey. But it is
:10:04. > :10:12.extraordinarily difficult to navigate right now. Absolutely. One
:10:13. > :10:17.thing I feel like pointing out something, this is the new fashion
:10:18. > :10:22.in media now. Being against us. It started after the uprising. Before
:10:23. > :10:27.that uprising, all of these people who are now criticising's, most of
:10:28. > :10:31.the intellectuals and journalists, they were praising this Turkish
:10:32. > :10:36.model. After the uprising, it it is all over the place. They are acting
:10:37. > :10:40.as if President Erdogan is the mother of all evil. He moved from
:10:41. > :10:45.being the Democrat, moderate Islamist, to be authoritarian. You
:10:46. > :10:49.would be surprised but I think it is unfair to him. There was something
:10:50. > :10:54.wrong with the model, not the man. Nobody takes the time to think about
:10:55. > :10:58.what was wrong with that model. You are saying it was naive and wrong to
:10:59. > :11:02.ever think there was this thing called moderate Islam. Is that what
:11:03. > :11:07.you are saying? It is not that which I am saying. It is this fantasy of
:11:08. > :11:15.perfect marriage within democracy and moderate Islam, it was lacking
:11:16. > :11:21.vision. In a sense, I want to get personal. We have talked about the
:11:22. > :11:24.difficulty of navigating as a writer and journalist in today's post coup
:11:25. > :11:29.Turkey, and God knows it is difficult. Have you had to dial back
:11:30. > :11:33.on what you write? Are you constantly aware with every word
:11:34. > :11:40.that leaves your computer that you could be running a very personal
:11:41. > :11:47.risk? This has been my story for the last 20 years, which, you know, is
:11:48. > :11:50.my entire writing life. There are hundreds of journalists locked up
:11:51. > :11:54.right now, many new friends and colleagues of yours. But surely
:11:55. > :11:59.meant you can't say what you want to say any more. This is not new
:12:00. > :12:04.fertility to start with, but it is true that it has become more
:12:05. > :12:09.worrying at the moment -- new for Turkey. Yes, I do feel concerned. To
:12:10. > :12:15.give the British understatement. LAUGHTER
:12:16. > :12:20.You are still based in Istanbul. Yes, I am. I have another place in
:12:21. > :12:26.Zagreb, I bought it a few years ago because it is not only the
:12:27. > :12:33.oppression and Turkey being threatening, the turbulent times
:12:34. > :12:39.paralyse you. You are intellectually paralysed in such a turbulent
:12:40. > :12:46.country. Sometimes I need some peace of mind, so I go to Zagreb to write.
:12:47. > :12:51.You have written movingly about sometimes the way you feel about
:12:52. > :12:54.Turkey, the homeland. One phrase I remember about you feeling almost
:12:55. > :12:59.like a relationship with a lover, a lover that is you so badly and so
:13:00. > :13:03.deeply, and I just wonder if you believe that the relationship
:13:04. > :13:11.between you and your homeland, is that amount of hurt is there, can be
:13:12. > :13:17.repaired? This as being going on since the establishment of this
:13:18. > :13:22.country. Since the state. The state is never being compassionate towards
:13:23. > :13:26.people like me. Towards people who tell the real and entire story of
:13:27. > :13:32.the country. I mentioned almost all of them in the book. The very
:13:33. > :13:37.important ones at least. The greatest poet in Turkish literature,
:13:38. > :13:45.and another great poet in Turkish Language. All of these names either
:13:46. > :13:52.have been imprisoned, tortured, exiled, you know, whatever you want.
:13:53. > :14:00.So this state has been quite massless against those children that
:14:01. > :14:04.loved him most -- mercilessly stop is that because you are out of tune
:14:05. > :14:09.and out of step with most Turks? Therefore it is easy to isolate you
:14:10. > :14:14.and to try to pin you down and in a sense, to silence you?
:14:15. > :14:19.No country loves their children if they are children is constantly
:14:20. > :14:25.talking about the negativity is of the country. It is not about Turkey,
:14:26. > :14:32.it goes for many countries and many societies. I am a writer. It isn't
:14:33. > :14:36.easy to like a writer who writes about political stuff. And you talk
:14:37. > :14:41.about subjects that Turkey as a state, not just any government, but
:14:42. > :14:45.at the state has declared to be off limits, like the army and genocide.
:14:46. > :14:49.You have taken it on in a way most writers refuse to because they know
:14:50. > :14:53.it could lead to their being locked up. You've also taken on the human
:14:54. > :14:59.rights situation in the Kurdish areas of Turkey, repeatedly. I think
:15:00. > :15:03.you would probably call yourself a feminist in a way that upset some
:15:04. > :15:08.Turks. Yes. The human rights defender. I am not really a
:15:09. > :15:13.defender, I am trying to move to the storytelling part. I am trying to be
:15:14. > :15:17.more on the storytelling part. In all these cases you mentioned,
:15:18. > :15:23.Armenian issues, the Kurdish question and so on and so forth, all
:15:24. > :15:28.of them I want to tell the entire story. In the Armenian case, for
:15:29. > :15:35.instance, I thought the term genocide stopped the conversation
:15:36. > :15:39.between Turkish and Armenian people, so I try to find another way to tell
:15:40. > :15:43.the story without mentioning that word and to tell the pain of
:15:44. > :15:49.Armenian people to Turkish people and vice-versa. For Kurdish people I
:15:50. > :15:55.tried to bring those people as human beings for the people in the western
:15:56. > :16:01.Turkey to see the story. Because I am this naive person who thinks that
:16:02. > :16:06.once you know the story you can understand the person. Against that
:16:07. > :16:12.you betray a Turkish society which in some way seems to be determined,
:16:13. > :16:14.not just because of government instruction, but collectively
:16:15. > :16:23.determined to forget to be silent. -- you portray. You talk about the
:16:24. > :16:26.Dubai-isation, where as long as people have access to shopping
:16:27. > :16:31.centres and converts they can sort or forget all of the polarisations
:16:32. > :16:39.and divisions within their country. Is that the weight you feel about
:16:40. > :16:43.Turkey today? Turkey is, the cliched definition, that Turkey is the place
:16:44. > :16:46.between Asia and Europe. So once you are on a bridge you feel like
:16:47. > :16:50.passing through it, not really staying on it. So I always thought
:16:51. > :17:00.that Turkey has been hurrying up, rushing history, let's say, to cross
:17:01. > :17:04.the bridge. The ideology in the beginning was to cross the bridge to
:17:05. > :17:08.the western side, where is in this new Turkey the idea was to cross to
:17:09. > :17:13.the other side, to eastern side. You strike me as a deeply westernised
:17:14. > :17:21.Turk. Is that how you see yourself? I am pretty much middle eastern in
:17:22. > :17:26.my emotional world, but if we talk about realities I am kind of Weston,
:17:27. > :17:35.I think. I want to bring it back to politics, you would be delighted to
:17:36. > :17:41.know. I want to bring it back to Erdogan and your critique of him,
:17:42. > :17:45.which you would suggest makes his talk of democracy illegitimate, and
:17:46. > :17:50.yet the truth is that according to all of the evidence in Turkey today
:17:51. > :17:53.he is more popular and his government is more popular today
:17:54. > :17:56.than it has ever been. More than two thirds of Turks appear to willingly,
:17:57. > :18:04.voluntarily, support President Erdogan. How does that fit in your
:18:05. > :18:11.picture? First of all, I told you before and I repeat it again, this
:18:12. > :18:14.book is not about Mr Erdogan and I am not personally criticising Mr
:18:15. > :18:22.Erdogan. I am talking about the system, the ideas, the ideologies
:18:23. > :18:29.and so forth. Let's put that aside. Democracy is a funny thing. Once you
:18:30. > :18:34.define it as just... As the ballot boxes, then you can get anything you
:18:35. > :18:42.want. But then it is not only ballot boxes, it's unions, foundations,
:18:43. > :18:46.civil society and so on and so forth. Would you draw a parallel
:18:47. > :18:52.between Mr Erdogan today and Vladimir Putin, in Russia? I think
:18:53. > :18:56.there's a trend the world and you are going to go through that as
:18:57. > :19:07.well, I think, in Britain. There is a trend of order -- orderism. Having
:19:08. > :19:12.Putin, in France they are having right-wing parties, in Austria as
:19:13. > :19:17.well, so this is a trend. And I think it represents the crisis of
:19:18. > :19:21.democracy for the entire world and that's why Turkey is important.
:19:22. > :19:28.That's why Europe has to pay more attention to Turkey, because if the
:19:29. > :19:34.Turkish democracy gets damaged, I think that might have a domino
:19:35. > :19:38.effect in Europe and you will see the right-wing parties in Europe
:19:39. > :19:47.will rise with the same discourse, the same arguments, that have been
:19:48. > :19:50.used in Turkey. You seem quite disillusioned with the way Western
:19:51. > :19:53.powers have looked at Turkey in recent years and you seem to believe
:19:54. > :19:59.they have consistently misunderstood what is happening. Not really. I
:20:00. > :20:03.think they chose to believe in this project, the Turkish model, because
:20:04. > :20:13.it fit the requirements of the world. What do you mean, the
:20:14. > :20:18.moderate idea, that Erdogan could be the effective bridge between Western
:20:19. > :20:27.ideology and the Arab world? Yes, especially after the fears of 9/11.
:20:28. > :20:33.By the way, I am feeling like the guinea pig of a failed experiment, a
:20:34. > :20:43.massive scale experiment, and most people feel the same way. In Egypt,
:20:44. > :20:51.people who went to Tahrir Square, almost the same thing. What, a sense
:20:52. > :20:56.of betrayal? Not betrayal, you are asking about the west and my
:20:57. > :21:04.disillusionment. I think they refuse to talk to secular parts of society
:21:05. > :21:07.and politics and they were still enthusiastic for a decade, so
:21:08. > :21:13.enthusiastic about this project. So they fell for the narrative of the
:21:14. > :21:18.secularism of these countries, the elites, they are oppressive and they
:21:19. > :21:25.are pressing the real people of Turkey, or the real people of the
:21:26. > :21:28.country and so on. I think all these people, all these intellectuals and
:21:29. > :21:34.writers, they should show the same enthusiasm now when they connect,
:21:35. > :21:43.communicate, with the secular part of the society. We view, you mean.
:21:44. > :21:47.What happens to you now? With you. You say from time to time you feel
:21:48. > :21:50.intellectually paralysed and you have to get out. Do you think you
:21:51. > :21:59.will end up living... Given that situation... No, God forbid, I don't
:22:00. > :22:02.want that. It is not an easy thing to talk about. I look at other
:22:03. > :22:06.journalists and writers and frankly courageous people, as you've said,
:22:07. > :22:12.who are committed to truth telling and write -- right now in Turkey
:22:13. > :22:22.that's dangerous exercise. I am not a courageous person. I am a perfect
:22:23. > :22:29.coward. Callard? -- cow would? The things you have written? I am a
:22:30. > :22:33.serious coward. Usually this programme doesn't work like that.
:22:34. > :22:39.You say you are courageous and I say you are not. No, this is how I deal
:22:40. > :22:45.with life. A fierce. I am not a courageous person. Whenever you
:22:46. > :22:52.bring up imprisonment and so on I go to -- like this. But I don't want to
:22:53. > :22:56.be defined by courage because that is a lot of weight on one's shoulder
:22:57. > :23:01.and then introduces you to this person who is courageous. And there
:23:02. > :23:05.is a funny thing about being in a position, especially in Turkey
:23:06. > :23:09.nowadays, even though you are oppositional. Whenever the political
:23:10. > :23:12.power becomes more primitive you are coming more primitive accordingly
:23:13. > :23:20.and you are turning into this person who says, no! Which doesn't require
:23:21. > :23:24.much intellectual capacity. That's why I am trying to write the whole
:23:25. > :23:27.story, that's why I am telling that Turkey's story is far bigger than
:23:28. > :23:33.the current government and current issues. It is interesting you say
:23:34. > :23:37.this. My last question is this, we do you feel you will move away from
:23:38. > :23:41.the sort of daily diet of commentary and columns and journalism and more
:23:42. > :23:47.towards your fiction, maybe more allegorical stuff, where the tension
:23:48. > :23:52.with the state and the government is less of a daily pressure? Yes.
:23:53. > :24:00.Because journalism, or articles, daily articles, are more mediocre,
:24:01. > :24:06.in a way. Compared to literature. When you write literature you write
:24:07. > :24:11.these big books, so all these people who want to hate you have to take
:24:12. > :24:15.their time and spend energy and they do do that, so they don't see the
:24:16. > :24:19.politics actually buried in them a mark that basically buried in those
:24:20. > :24:22.books. That's a great way of putting it. Ece Temelkuran, thank you very
:24:23. > :24:45.much for being on HARDtalk Thank you.
:24:46. > :24:50.Tuesday the 13th of September will be a day to remember,
:24:51. > :24:54.not just because of extreme heat but a day of contrast.