:00:11. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Elected politicians tend to
:00:18. > :00:23.lose their grip on power and prestige with brutal speed, and so
:00:24. > :00:27.it was for my guest today. For five years, Nick Clegg was Britain's
:00:28. > :00:30.Deputy Prime Minister, the Liberal Democrat who entered a coalition
:00:31. > :00:35.with the Conservatives and gave his party their first real taste of
:00:36. > :00:40.power in generations, and then came the 2015 Gemill election. His party
:00:41. > :00:44.was annihilated and he took much of the blame. His brand of liberal pro-
:00:45. > :00:47.European politics now looks like badly damaged goods. Is there anyone
:00:48. > :01:20.to blame but himself? Nick Clegg, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:21. > :01:26.Good to be here. How easy is it to deal with that sense of overwhelming
:01:27. > :01:31.rejection which you must have had after the 2015 election? A little
:01:32. > :01:34.bit easier than you might imagine because anyone watching this
:01:35. > :01:39.programme thinking of going into politics, don't go into politics if
:01:40. > :01:43.what you want is endless praise and bouquets of flowers condiments.
:01:44. > :01:47.Politics is a rough business and you shouldn't embark on it if you are
:01:48. > :01:54.prepared to live and die by the sword. In that sense, I wasn't
:01:55. > :01:58.braced for the result that materialised but you kind of have to
:01:59. > :02:02.accept that is part of the life you choose if you go into politics. That
:02:03. > :02:06.covers the personal feeling, the voters said no to you, not in your
:02:07. > :02:11.constituency but to your party, but I'm thinking more the rejection of
:02:12. > :02:15.ideas. What you have offered the British public, that liberal vision,
:02:16. > :02:20.and particularly the pro- European vision was soundly and roundly
:02:21. > :02:29.rejected. That must hurt and worry you? I'll wouldn't take it
:02:30. > :02:33.personally because I think the rejection of our membership of the
:02:34. > :02:35.year European Union, which was more manifest in the referendum rather
:02:36. > :02:39.than the election last year... I feel more worried about the future
:02:40. > :02:43.of the UK following that referendum than I did following the defeat of
:02:44. > :02:48.my party in the polls and the election last year. Parties come and
:02:49. > :02:52.go, politicians rise and fall but it seems to me that turned the country
:02:53. > :02:56.has taken on the 23rd of June is altogether more serious and in my
:02:57. > :03:00.view I think we will lose something quite precious. I'm more concerned
:03:01. > :03:05.and worried about that than I was even at the Madaya of my fortunes
:03:06. > :03:09.and my party's fortunes in the general election last year. Let's
:03:10. > :03:13.keep on the European theme then and look at the sorts of things you have
:03:14. > :03:17.said and the mindset you bring to the table when we consider Britain
:03:18. > :03:22.and Europe. You said this recently," I regard the referendum outcome as
:03:23. > :03:28.the greatest act of national self immolation in modern times". That a
:03:29. > :03:32.direct quote from your book. And you foresee, it seems, nothing but doom
:03:33. > :03:37.for the United Kingdom. Now, that's a message that was peddled by David
:03:38. > :03:41.Cameron and yourself before the election but here we sit two or
:03:42. > :03:44.three months later and doom, armageddon certainly hasn't arrived.
:03:45. > :03:49.Because we haven't left yet. There's a very odd state of the Nile over
:03:50. > :03:53.the summer that, oh, look, the referendum happen, the Earth is
:03:54. > :03:56.still spinning and the sun is still coming up in the morning. The
:03:57. > :04:00.economy is humming along and the markets are happy. But nothing has
:04:01. > :04:10.happened. But the markets know we will make an exit from the EU. This
:04:11. > :04:14.is an important point and a great dilemma we will face over the coming
:04:15. > :04:17.years, they don't know and no one knows and most worryingly the
:04:18. > :04:21.government doesn't know on what terms we leave. Yes, the decision
:04:22. > :04:24.has been taken that the UK will leave the EU but how you do that...
:04:25. > :04:28.It's not a technocratic issue, it's a profound issue that strikes at the
:04:29. > :04:30.heart of what will happen to the economy, what... It has
:04:31. > :04:34.constitutional implications for how law is passed, whether we mimic law
:04:35. > :04:37.in the EU or not, profound implications on how we fight crime
:04:38. > :04:41.and deal with climate change. How you leave, which by the way wasn't
:04:42. > :04:45.put before the British people on the 23rd of June because the Brexiteers,
:04:46. > :04:49.this Motley Crew of Pied Piper is that persuaded us to take this
:04:50. > :04:52.unprecedented leap couldn't agree among themselves what Brexit meant.
:04:53. > :04:55.It doesn't surprise me at all in a sense that nothing has happened
:04:56. > :05:02.because in a sense nothing has happened. The Motley Crew of pied
:05:03. > :05:06.pipers, it's a phrase I suppose that is somewhat sneering. It's more than
:05:07. > :05:12.that, I think it has been one of the most spectacular acts of political
:05:13. > :05:17.dishonesty on the part of a number of opportunists and populists who
:05:18. > :05:25.have fed on people's legitimate grievances about their lives to
:05:26. > :05:29.promise them 315 million for the end of the NHS and immigration problems.
:05:30. > :05:33.Promises and threats were made on both sides, which were probably not
:05:34. > :05:37.justified by the facts, but I'm more interested in the intellectual basis
:05:38. > :05:45.on which you approach this. Your approach seems to be that all those
:05:46. > :05:49.of reasonable and rational mind must be pro- Remain in the European
:05:50. > :05:53.Union. You seem to assume that all those who in the end won the
:05:54. > :05:59.argument, the Brexiteers, are nothing but opportunists and liars.
:06:00. > :06:03.Too many people in the UK, including serious and respected politicians,
:06:04. > :06:07.economists and business leaders, that's unacceptable. No, I don't
:06:08. > :06:11.think it is. They now lead to live up to the possibility for what they
:06:12. > :06:16.have done that need to. I don't have an argument, I met thousands of my
:06:17. > :06:20.constituents in Sheffield, I have no argument with those people voting
:06:21. > :06:23.for Brexit because for them the question wasn't about whether you
:06:24. > :06:26.like this directive or that directive or agreeing with the
:06:27. > :06:30.master of criteria, for ordinary voters who are angry and frustrated
:06:31. > :06:34.and haven't had a pay rise since 2008, concerned whether their kids
:06:35. > :06:38.will get their feet on the first rung of the property ladder, I
:06:39. > :06:41.disagree but I understand that for them the referendum was an
:06:42. > :06:54.opportunity to give the status quo a kicking and to say, no, I'm angry
:06:55. > :06:58.with my lot and I want it change. I have no argument with them but I do
:06:59. > :07:01.have an argument... I'm not going to backpedal about my dismay at the
:07:02. > :07:03.intellectual dishonesty with which otherwise intelligent people across
:07:04. > :07:06.the political spectrum sought to persuade people that this utopia
:07:07. > :07:09.would beckon if we would leave the EU. The EU is a deeply flawed
:07:10. > :07:12.organisation. This comes to your question about the intellectual
:07:13. > :07:16.basis. The reason I think what has been lost is so precious is for this
:07:17. > :07:20.reason. We live in a globalised world. If I think about the future
:07:21. > :07:22.of my children will occupy in decades ahead, there's almost
:07:23. > :07:27.nothing which will impinge on their lives. The environment, rhyme, jobs,
:07:28. > :07:31.prosperity which doesn't in one shape or form require a collective
:07:32. > :07:35.international response -- crime. Cutting ourselves off from the
:07:36. > :07:37.flawed but nonetheless most sophisticated way of taking
:07:38. > :07:41.collective international decisions in our hemisphere seems something
:07:42. > :07:46.that is shortchanging the fortunes of the young. And by the way that is
:07:47. > :07:51.also what the young think. You are a Democrat, you made that case and you
:07:52. > :07:55.lost, you fail, let's be blunt. This is something interesting the
:07:56. > :07:59.Canadian level, is a very like-minded politician to you,
:08:00. > :08:03.something that he said observing you and this is something he wrote in
:08:04. > :08:07.the review of your recent book, he said," Presenting yourself as the
:08:08. > :08:12.uncontestable voice of sweet reason isn't smart politics. It is elitist
:08:13. > :08:18.condescension and the Brexiteers have their reasons and their reasons
:08:19. > :08:22.won the argument" Clay's brand of liberal modernisation is the natural
:08:23. > :08:27.mating call of elite cosmopolitans -- Clegg. I don't agree with that in
:08:28. > :08:32.the same way that people who contest Donald Trump's assertion that all
:08:33. > :08:36.America's problems will be solved if you build a wall against Mexicans.
:08:37. > :08:41.You think there is a direct parallel? Donald Trump and the
:08:42. > :08:46.arguments to leave the European Union? There a populist... Isn't
:08:47. > :08:51.that your condescension? It is taking the arguments seriously and
:08:52. > :08:55.if I'd fixed line, populism down the ages has always... It has come in
:08:56. > :09:00.any shapes or form, nationalist or not, populist or not, it has taken
:09:01. > :09:05.complex problems and says to angry or fearful voters, I feel your anger
:09:06. > :09:10.and here's the solution, build a wall, yank yourselves out of the...
:09:11. > :09:16.Nationalists north of the border who I think are a form of populism,
:09:17. > :09:19.saying it is all London's fault. It is grievance politics, blaming
:09:20. > :09:25.complex problems on something or someone else is. Here's the rub, the
:09:26. > :09:30.many people I met who voted Brexit, actually the things they need,
:09:31. > :09:34.decent jobs, decent funded social care, better public services, a
:09:35. > :09:38.fairer slice of the cake, better housing, all of those things should
:09:39. > :09:42.be provided for by British governments and aren't going to be
:09:43. > :09:46.solved by yanking out of the EU. Do you agree with the lead of the Lib
:09:47. > :09:49.Dems today, Tim Farron, your successor, who says there should be
:09:50. > :09:53.a second referendum, saying the answer is wrong so we need the
:09:54. > :09:58.people to vote against. That's not what he said, what he said, and
:09:59. > :10:02.rightly in my view, the facts in the coming years will bear him out I
:10:03. > :10:06.think, he says the decision has been taken openly and democratically, not
:10:07. > :10:10.I don't like something I agree with but it has happened, leaving the EU,
:10:11. > :10:15.but nobody spelt out to the British people before the 23rd of June what
:10:16. > :10:19.Brexit meant. When that happens, when a deal is struck, all the
:10:20. > :10:23.questions about agriculture, science, free movement, the single
:10:24. > :10:27.market, trade relations, once those are settled in the same way the
:10:28. > :10:31.principal decision was taken by the British people to leave, the terms
:10:32. > :10:37.of departure should also be... That is blatantly absurd, it will take
:10:38. > :10:41.two years to get the deal done. Bemba vote will happen and either
:10:42. > :10:44.the British public will agree to the deal but if they don't, which you
:10:45. > :10:50.hope they won't, then what happens? We are in total in Bow. It would be
:10:51. > :10:56.an absurd demand to make if the Brexiteers secured a mandate for a
:10:57. > :11:00.particular model of exit for Brexit before the 23rd of June, they not
:11:01. > :11:04.only deliberately suffocated and disagreed with themselves about what
:11:05. > :11:08.it means for the UK outside the EU, they made a number of very seductive
:11:09. > :11:12.commitments, all of which have evaporated within a few days and
:11:13. > :11:15.weeks since the referendum. So it is reasonable for Tim Farron to say in
:11:16. > :11:19.keeping with the democratic principle of a referendum to decide
:11:20. > :11:22.to leave in the first place, the terms of departure, which isn't
:11:23. > :11:26.technical, it is profoundly important how we leave, should also
:11:27. > :11:31.be subject to a vote for the British people. In simple terms you are
:11:32. > :11:35.backing a second referendum? On the terms of departure. Once the deal
:11:36. > :11:40.has been struck? And the British public will be into that? I think
:11:41. > :11:44.over time there will be a growing appetite for it because I think it
:11:45. > :11:47.will be so difficult for this government to actually engineer a
:11:48. > :11:52.successful form of Brexit which conforms to everything they want,
:11:53. > :11:57.apparently they want free trade, though want all the nice bits of
:11:58. > :12:01.security in the EU but not the bad bits and so forth. We challenge them
:12:02. > :12:04.in terms of what they are doing. This is important, the British
:12:05. > :12:07.people will be frustrated that having been told everything will be
:12:08. > :12:10.simple they actually find it's not that straightforward and at that
:12:11. > :12:15.point the British people should be allowed to have their say and not be
:12:16. > :12:19.told to like it or lump it. The coalition government as we now know
:12:20. > :12:24.and you know to your cost cost your party so dear. It has led to the
:12:25. > :12:33.annihilation of your party. Not annihilation. You have eight seeds
:12:34. > :12:36.and you began with 57. 2.5 million people voted for the Liberal
:12:37. > :12:40.Democrats. The Liberal Democrats last year got 1 million more votes
:12:41. > :12:46.than the SNP, we have eight and they have 56. To say to 2.5 million
:12:47. > :12:48.people that the cause you believe in has been annihilated is
:12:49. > :12:53.self-evidently not true. The insult doesn't come from me but it comes
:12:54. > :12:58.from you and the decisions in the coalition, most obviously the
:12:59. > :13:02.decision you make on a U-turn not to raise tuition fees. It was your
:13:03. > :13:07.supporters who felt insulted by that and that is why they left you in
:13:08. > :13:12.their droves. That's correct. This insult you are talking about is
:13:13. > :13:15.something you delivered. I am challenging the silly assertions to
:13:16. > :13:21.save a party that garnered 1 million more votes than the SNP in an
:13:22. > :13:24.election a year ago at a low point is annihilated and that is
:13:25. > :13:30.self-evidently absurd. We are winning by-elections. In Sheffield
:13:31. > :13:34.last Thursday. We let from fourth to first place. You read the polls like
:13:35. > :13:40.I do, you know what they say. They haven't shifted much. 7%. If there's
:13:41. > :13:44.one industry that has been discredited in recent times it is
:13:45. > :13:49.polling. Is it annihilated? No. Was damage done to the Lib Dems by us
:13:50. > :13:52.going into coalition? Of course it was, it would be odd to say
:13:53. > :13:56.otherwise, otherwise I wouldn't have resigned or written a book detailing
:13:57. > :14:02.in meticulous details exactly what went right and what went wrong. You
:14:03. > :14:06.called a debacle, you called the tuition fee decision a debacle but
:14:07. > :14:12.you don't really explain why. I did explain. Let me explain. We didn't
:14:13. > :14:16.win the election. I was not Prime Minister. We didn't have the
:14:17. > :14:22.democratic right to implement our manifesto in full. You did not need
:14:23. > :14:24.to back Cameron on the tuition fee issue. You didn't need to but you
:14:25. > :14:45.chose to. B explained. -- let me explain. They
:14:46. > :14:49.were certain to see fees increased. Given their sanctimonious claim
:14:50. > :14:54.later... Today you don't seem to be saying sorry. You asked me for an LX
:14:55. > :14:59.-- explanation. If you asked me for an apology, I could do that. But you
:15:00. > :15:02.have a different expression. Both parties agreed more than they did
:15:03. > :15:09.with me that they wanted fees increased. If the Liberal Democrat
:15:10. > :15:14.entered into an agreement with labour, we had no money to commit to
:15:15. > :15:20.abolish and of fees. We did the next best thing. That was the compromise.
:15:21. > :15:25.There are some people are no that would call a Coppermine is a
:15:26. > :15:29.betrayal. Until heaven freezes over. -- compromise. It is what happens in
:15:30. > :15:33.coalition governments, there is no secret and there was no secret about
:15:34. > :15:37.that. If you don't have power on your own, you compromise. It cost us
:15:38. > :15:42.a great deal politically. As it happens, it was a system that led to
:15:43. > :15:45.a different outcome in university education that many people predicted
:15:46. > :15:50.and now we have more people from disadvantaged grounds in university
:15:51. > :15:54.than before. Do I apologise to the anger and frustration that people
:15:55. > :15:58.feel that we made a commitment that we clearly couldn't keep? Yes, we
:15:59. > :16:04.do. What about the realities of having to make compromise? I can't
:16:05. > :16:13.and I won't. It was just a question of how the coalition worked out.
:16:14. > :16:17.Left-wing commentators and analysts, "Almost everything that Nick Clegg
:16:18. > :16:22.colluded with in the government was an error. Almost everything he
:16:23. > :16:28.achieved by comparison was Kipling. His role, now, is as a warning
:16:29. > :16:36.beacon of what not to do. " This is always the same of people like him.
:16:37. > :16:43.The angry sanctimonious left ends up doing the spadework for the right.
:16:44. > :16:51.It is patented ludicrous to say the income tax system introduced is...
:16:52. > :16:57.Not just from the left but from the right. You never push Cameron out of
:16:58. > :17:04.his comfort zone. You made many wins. They did not push Cameron into
:17:05. > :17:12.places he didn't go. You own supporters wanted him to go. -- your
:17:13. > :17:19.own. I want to cite people I may disagree with. I don't agree with
:17:20. > :17:23.him at all. Instead of constantly beating up on the Liberal Democrat,
:17:24. > :17:28.they kept their eye on their conservatives. The Conservatives
:17:29. > :17:37.would not be as dominant as they are now. In a coalition government when
:17:38. > :17:46.no one wins outright. You strike compromises. Having spent five years
:17:47. > :17:51.doing it, I know a lot more than Polly Toynbee. Of course the
:17:52. > :17:54.Conservatives did not like what was put in place which they dismantled
:17:55. > :17:58.over the last years. They did not like that we didn't want to have a
:17:59. > :18:02.referendum on their terms will stop of course it didn't want the huge
:18:03. > :18:05.amount of money dedicated to the poorest children at the youngest age
:18:06. > :18:09.in the way that we did. Of course they did not like the massive
:18:10. > :18:12.revolution in the income tax personal system, personal income tax
:18:13. > :18:16.system, which they condemned as unaffordable. To dismiss all these
:18:17. > :18:26.things as piffling is a self evidently ludicrous. You can argue
:18:27. > :18:31.about whether the Libs are on life support or not that you have eight
:18:32. > :18:35.MPs, no presence in Westminster, their presence in the country in
:18:36. > :18:40.terms of the noise made by politics, what will happen to the voters that
:18:41. > :18:44.fill themselves still to be centre ground voters question mark element
:18:45. > :18:50.it is a big question that will shape the future of politics over the next
:18:51. > :18:54.few years. There will be an alignment over the next few years.
:18:55. > :19:03.The basic transmission of our democracy has ground to a halt. It
:19:04. > :19:08.has stopped. With a new Prime Minister he was to secure her own
:19:09. > :19:13.mandate, they got 24% of the vote? They now rely on elderly English
:19:14. > :19:18.voters, not exclusively, but largely, to sustain their power. As
:19:19. > :19:24.long as they kneecap labour beyond the border, there is no way that
:19:25. > :19:28.labour can sustain. A healthy democracy relies on the people of
:19:29. > :19:33.power constantly worrying that someone is go to take power away
:19:34. > :19:37.from them. That is now impossible. Labour cannot win, YouTube can't,
:19:38. > :19:42.Greens can't, somehow to restore the balance, the yin and yang that all
:19:43. > :19:47.democracies need, I think it is time that politicians of different
:19:48. > :19:50.persuasions start working together. In your analysis of what is
:19:51. > :19:55.happening in politics, across the world, you talk about the importance
:19:56. > :19:58.and the growing influence of the politics of grievance, of identity,
:19:59. > :20:03.of the heart and a motion, rather than the head and rationality. If
:20:04. > :20:07.that is the case then I am struggling to see how what you are
:20:08. > :20:11.offering, what you offered in 2015 in the election and what you offer
:20:12. > :20:15.today in terms of Europe and the whole raft of other issues as well,
:20:16. > :20:21.is really appealing to the voters of today. What you have to ask is what
:20:22. > :20:24.kind of world do you think we can have and the problems that we face
:20:25. > :20:28.which is considerable, what is the best way to deal with them? Politics
:20:29. > :20:32.at the end of the day is about trying to offer a better life and
:20:33. > :20:36.answer problems that people face. I personally do not, however much you
:20:37. > :20:40.urge me to do this, I will not accept that the way to deal with a
:20:41. > :20:43.lack of affordable housing, a lack of decent social care, a lack of
:20:44. > :20:49.wage progression, the millions of low income workers is the point the
:20:50. > :20:54.finger of dream at Brussels or Islam of foreigners or single mothers. I
:20:55. > :21:00.do not believe that simply pointing a vitriolic finger of blame which is
:21:01. > :21:05.at the heart of populism. ... It is the temper of the Times. If you
:21:06. > :21:08.except that the temper of the Times is how I described it, how are you
:21:09. > :21:12.with your Liberal centre ground politics going to match the temper
:21:13. > :21:17.of the times? It is one of the reasons I wrote the book. I do not
:21:18. > :21:21.have the encyclopaedic answer but some of the elements of the answer,
:21:22. > :21:29.the politics of reason, should perhaps be less reasonable in
:21:30. > :21:34.standing up for itself. What does that mean? There is an almost
:21:35. > :21:41.Pastoral response to some of the vivid and rather livid allegations
:21:42. > :21:49.and claims -- pastel. Whether it is the Raj, Trump, -- Nigel Farage,
:21:50. > :22:02.Marilla Penn, they say things that are patently... We need to be more
:22:03. > :22:08.vocal in spelling out why they are false prophets, they are making
:22:09. > :22:14.false promises of simplicity to a complex problem. I think most
:22:15. > :22:18.people, most of the time, are smart enough to know that life is not
:22:19. > :22:22.always simple and that is sometimes you want to have solutions to things
:22:23. > :22:27.in a complex world, you cannot just do so by building walls or blaming
:22:28. > :22:30.others. Let's end with a personal question. Politics has been tough
:22:31. > :22:38.for you in the last couple of years, you have been derided, you're from
:22:39. > :22:42.-- and family have copped a bruising. David Cameron has
:22:43. > :22:47.announced he is quitting politics. You go to do the same? I made that
:22:48. > :22:54.promise to my constituents that I will stay. Sheffield Hallam last
:22:55. > :23:01.May. You make it sound like a penance. No, no, no. I made that
:23:02. > :23:07.commitment. I made my work as a constituent MP. You have been at the
:23:08. > :23:11.very pinnacle of British politics, deputy Prime Minister, it is hard to
:23:12. > :23:20.see where you go from there. Weller I do not know what the future holds.
:23:21. > :23:24.--I do not know. Most MPs haven't in 2016, made public whether they will
:23:25. > :23:28.stand again in four years time. I think most people understand there
:23:29. > :23:33.is a time and a place to confirm that. That is exactly what I will
:23:34. > :23:38.do. In the meantime and this idea that you can only enjoy politics as
:23:39. > :23:44.you are being wafted around in a ministerial... It's absurd. It is
:23:45. > :23:49.more fun to win and Toulouse will stop to politics if you only want to
:23:50. > :23:56.win. -- more fun to win than two loos. You have to take losses with
:23:57. > :24:02.as much grace and resilient as the pleasure that you take in winning.
:24:03. > :24:06.-- lose. Nick Clegg, we have two end there. Thank you for being on
:24:07. > :24:31.HARDtalk. They give a much. -- thank you.
:24:32. > :24:34.Our spell of scorching September weather continues across many parts