0:00:00 > 0:00:00a web permit. She said she always followed immigration laws
0:00:00 > 0:00:01a web permit. She said she always followed immigration laws but
0:00:01 > 0:00:01a web permit. She said she always followed immigration laws but has
0:00:01 > 0:00:01followed immigration laws but has not
0:00:01 > 0:00:01followed immigration laws but has not clarified
0:00:01 > 0:00:02followed immigration laws but has not clarified the issue
0:00:02 > 0:00:02followed immigration laws but has not clarified the issue --
0:00:02 > 0:00:03not clarified the issue -- work permit.
0:00:03 > 0:00:08Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Britain's opposition Labour party
0:00:12 > 0:00:16is at war with itself, preoccupied with a challenge
0:00:16 > 0:00:19to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership from within the Parliamentary Party
0:00:19 > 0:00:21and riven by accusations of plotting, intimidation
0:00:21 > 0:00:26and treachery.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29And all this after the Brexit vote exposed the disconnect
0:00:29 > 0:00:37between Labour and its core working-class voters.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40My guest is veteran Labour MP, Frank Field, one of the few loud
0:00:40 > 0:00:43pro-Brexit voices in his party.
0:00:43 > 0:00:48Are we now witnessing the slow death of Labour?
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Frank Field, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Thank you.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Here's a puzzling fact, it was David Cameron
0:01:20 > 0:01:24who put his career on the line for remaining inside the EU
0:01:24 > 0:01:30and it was David Cameron who had to resign after the Brexit vote,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33the Tory party appeared to be in disarray but the party
0:01:33 > 0:01:37which right now is suffering complete meltdown and chaos
0:01:37 > 0:01:40after the Brexit vote is your party, the Labour Party - why?
0:01:40 > 0:01:42I think there are a number of reasons.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46The Tories clearly understand power and the movement of power rather
0:01:46 > 0:01:50more than we do and they were rather quick in moving from one
0:01:50 > 0:01:55Prime Minister to another.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57There was a folding of the candidates in the Tory
0:01:57 > 0:02:03opposition so that helped.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07In the end Theresa May took over, it was quick and it was decisive.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09And she has built a new government...
0:02:09 > 0:02:13And your party, if I may say so, has never looked more useless.
0:02:13 > 0:02:18No, not only...not even responding to what the government's new agenda
0:02:18 > 0:02:24is - I mean, they have set an agenda in two areas,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27the first one, which is a major one, is the acceptance that we are going
0:02:27 > 0:02:32to leave Europe.
0:02:32 > 0:02:41How and what we mean by that, it is of course part
0:02:41 > 0:02:44of the debate, but we are a party of re-moaners, as we ought to be
0:02:44 > 0:02:45called, we just...
0:02:45 > 0:02:46Your party?
0:02:46 > 0:02:46Yes, absolutely.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49That we should actually have another referendum on this -
0:02:49 > 0:02:51it is over, it is finished, we've moved on, we now
0:02:51 > 0:02:55have the opportunity and the duty to seize on how we now shape
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Britain's future, in friendship with the EU, but outside the EU
0:02:57 > 0:02:59and looking actually to a world stage rather
0:02:59 > 0:03:01than a much narrower one.
0:03:01 > 0:03:06If I may, how could it be that just 4% of Labour MPs favoured Brexit
0:03:06 > 0:03:09in that long campaign and yet 52% of the electorate favoured Brexit?
0:03:09 > 0:03:15Why did that disconnect occur?
0:03:15 > 0:03:18It is a long-standing one in that if you go back historically,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21the Labour Party has always been this coalition between working-class
0:03:21 > 0:03:24interests which were then thought to be represented by the trade
0:03:24 > 0:03:30unions and what they called the intellectuals, the Fabianites
0:03:30 > 0:03:37of the Labour Party, who joined together,
0:03:37 > 0:03:46and there was a trade-off between the two of what the policies
0:03:46 > 0:03:48would be, and if you look, certainly to the '60s,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51when our vote began
0:03:51 > 0:03:54to unwind, because you talked about sort of the slow death
0:03:54 > 0:03:58of the Labour Party, my worry is that it will be a fast
0:03:58 > 0:04:00death, unless we act decisively.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04But the decline has been there, in the sense that those who once got
0:04:04 > 0:04:06these idealistic objectives of what politics is about,
0:04:06 > 0:04:10a crucial part that affects the flavour of any agenda of how
0:04:10 > 0:04:14governments perform and so on, have become the dominant one rather
0:04:14 > 0:04:17than actually trying to represent those class interests,
0:04:17 > 0:04:23and now we have moved, really, for many Labour supporters,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27which the Brexit vote showed - it is not a classist issue so much,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30although there is, but we are fed up with having the big stick
0:04:30 > 0:04:33of globalisation walloped on top of us, and our living
0:04:33 > 0:04:34standards pushed down.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36There is this huge new agenda which is about identity,
0:04:36 > 0:04:38about country, about place, about borders...
0:04:38 > 0:04:44And, a word you have not yet used, it is about immigration,
0:04:44 > 0:04:46and many of your opponents inside the Labour Party
0:04:46 > 0:04:49who categorically disagree with you about the future of Britain
0:04:49 > 0:04:53and the future of your party say that you and others who supported
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Brexit manipulated misleading arguments about the nature
0:04:56 > 0:05:04of immigration in the UK today.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07Well, if that is true it is because they were not listening.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10I mean, I have been accused of being a racist from the early
0:05:10 > 0:05:122000s onwards by raising the issue.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15We cannot have this level of immigration - the effect that it
0:05:15 > 0:05:18has on the country and its identity but also on the labour interest,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21which are generally speaking - not always - but generally speaking
0:05:21 > 0:05:24the most vulnerable in our society.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27That's my interest, standing up for those groups.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Right up to the last election when we staged a meeting
0:05:30 > 0:05:33within the Parliamentary Labour Party over immigration,
0:05:33 > 0:05:37and I asked Ed Miliband, "Do you not see a link between us
0:05:37 > 0:05:42letting five million people in and wages pushed down,
0:05:42 > 0:05:49shortage for houses, cannot go to your school and so on?"
0:05:49 > 0:05:52And there was growling from some members who disapproved and Ed got
0:05:52 > 0:05:54up and said he could not see any link at all.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58So that is how related we were to the real world
0:05:58 > 0:06:02and certainly the world where our voters are,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05and half the voters were taken out in the election when we lost those
0:06:05 > 0:06:07seats (CROSSTALK) and that's the future...
0:06:07 > 0:06:09When you mention the core interests of working people surely
0:06:09 > 0:06:11the fundamental core interest of working people
0:06:11 > 0:06:14is to have a strong growing economy and if you look at the sorts
0:06:14 > 0:06:17of indicators that come from business, from the CBI,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19from Chambers of Commerce and from people who actually run
0:06:19 > 0:06:21businesses, they all say that the levels of immigration
0:06:21 > 0:06:23reflect the needs of British industry, British businesses
0:06:23 > 0:06:25for workers, skilled workers, unskilled workers, hundreds
0:06:25 > 0:06:28of thousands of them that come from the EU and,
0:06:28 > 0:06:30frankly, half of them come from outside the EU -
0:06:30 > 0:06:33that is what has made the British economy successful over
0:06:33 > 0:06:38the last decade.
0:06:38 > 0:06:44The success has been bought at a price about pushing down wages.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47I'm actually after the whole cake, not half the cake, and clearly
0:06:47 > 0:06:51the idea that you can put walls up and nobody comes in is absurd
0:06:51 > 0:06:54but moving into a system where one has, like the Australian system,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57you are actually designated what you need and you fill those
0:06:57 > 0:07:01vacancies, and you just don't have a rush.
0:07:01 > 0:07:07We've had the rush here in this country.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10On these sets of figures you've given, of real success
0:07:10 > 0:07:13in the British economy, it is great to hear,
0:07:13 > 0:07:16God, no one is more pleased than I am
0:07:16 > 0:07:19to hear the success news on the economic front but there has
0:07:19 > 0:07:22been a real economic price to be paid and that is being paid...
0:07:22 > 0:07:25The further down the ladder you are, the bigger the price
0:07:25 > 0:07:28and the more higher up the ladder you are, the bigger the advantages
0:07:28 > 0:07:30of being in this open market.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32The interesting thing is, when you described to me
0:07:32 > 0:07:36what you believe are the lessons of Brexit for the left in the UK,
0:07:36 > 0:07:37you know who you sound like?
0:07:37 > 0:07:40You sound like most of the senior figures in Ukip, you know,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43when you talk about an Australian points system to control
0:07:43 > 0:07:45immigration, when you talk about culture and identity
0:07:45 > 0:07:50and national sense being at the heart of Labour's political
0:07:50 > 0:07:52future, you are actually using the language of Ukip.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54Is that where you want Labour to go?
0:07:54 > 0:08:00No...well, first of all, I think you are being really kind
0:08:00 > 0:08:03on Ukip, because looking at the state they're in now...
0:08:03 > 0:08:07They are in about the same sort of state as the Labour Party.
0:08:07 > 0:08:08Which gives us some relief.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13The thing we must fear is the revival of Ukip.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17And Ukip, I say took, but it's wrong to use this language,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20they weren't our people, but these are people who previously
0:08:20 > 0:08:23had voted Labour, almost a million of them, crossed over to support
0:08:23 > 0:08:24Ukip last time.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27If they get another million of our voters, we are finished
0:08:27 > 0:08:31and they begin to move into pole position, and I think the danger
0:08:31 > 0:08:37for us is that they begin to talk...
0:08:37 > 0:08:40I do not recognise anything that I've said that they have been
0:08:40 > 0:08:41saying,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45but I am not playing the game, if you say guilt by association.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I am interested in the ideas, what's moving the electorate,
0:08:47 > 0:08:50what the electorate are actually after, the form of representation
0:08:50 > 0:08:55they wish, and if Ukip does reform itself about identity,
0:08:55 > 0:09:00place, about borders, which is controlling the numbers,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03as you rightly say, and then becomes the English party,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05the outlook for us is grim beyond belief.
0:09:05 > 0:09:06Labour needs to compete on that territory?
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Yes.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11To itself identify as the English party?
0:09:11 > 0:09:14We have never done it in the past for crude, feeble...
0:09:14 > 0:09:17It could not run more counter to the ideology of,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19for example, Jeremy Corbyn, your party leader, who is,
0:09:19 > 0:09:25if anything, he is an international socialist to his core.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28That's the weaknes of Jeremy's position, which needs to be made
0:09:28 > 0:09:30plain during this contest for the leadership, that he has
0:09:30 > 0:09:32ideas about the effects of globalisation on poorer
0:09:32 > 0:09:34working-class people in this country.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38He has made a really good stab at that and it is part of the debate
0:09:38 > 0:09:40but because, as you say, he is this internationalist,
0:09:40 > 0:09:43there is no way he could deliver protection for those very groups
0:09:43 > 0:09:50he says are so hard treated.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53So while half of Jeremy's story is a good one and he has begun
0:09:53 > 0:09:57to shift the agenda, there is no way that if he had
0:09:57 > 0:10:01power, he would actually satisfy our vote or,
0:10:01 > 0:10:05given his stance, win an election.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08You made that very plain.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11You are being rather polite with me but you said recently there is not
0:10:11 > 0:10:14a cat in hell's chance of Labour winning with Jeremy at the helm
0:10:14 > 0:10:18so we better get into this burning issue for Labour of the leadership
0:10:18 > 0:10:20challenge and where the party is heading.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23There are many people inside the party, let alone outside
0:10:23 > 0:10:25it, who believe this leadership challenge represents the death
0:10:25 > 0:10:31throes of Labour.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34You have already said that there is an existential crisis.
0:10:34 > 0:10:35Is Labour dying?
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Yes.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39I think the main parties themselves are dying...
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Let's leave the Tories to talk about it for themselves...
0:10:41 > 0:10:44I am not trying to move it around.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47And, of course, we are.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50You only have to look at the long-term decline of our vote
0:10:50 > 0:10:52and the unwillingness of those who are called leaders to actually
0:10:52 > 0:10:55pay some attention to why our vote goes down rather than up.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58The aim of political parties is for the vote to
0:10:58 > 0:11:00increase not decrease.
0:11:00 > 0:11:10When it goes down you think there is something actually wrong
0:11:10 > 0:11:13here, and that is the long-term crisis for us which has been
0:11:13 > 0:11:14disguised at the last election.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17If you look at the results of the referendum, we have now got
0:11:17 > 0:11:22a Parliamentary party which I think is backward-looking, which has
0:11:22 > 0:11:29fantasies about being what Europe should have been about,
0:11:29 > 0:11:32all the old stuff we get from them but it is backward looking politics
0:11:32 > 0:11:39and we have a dozen Labour MPs, who have seats.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43If you take Stoke, it has three or four Labour members,
0:11:43 > 0:11:50Stoke voted by 72% to leave the EU.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55And this is just typical of huge swathes of Labour seats,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58what are Labour MPs who were then candidates, going to say to those
0:11:58 > 0:12:00voters when, in fact, on this fundamental issue,
0:12:00 > 0:12:06which is about reorientating the direction of the country -
0:12:06 > 0:12:10what are they actually going to say - that I am still a Europhile,
0:12:10 > 0:12:11I want to go back?
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Are you suggesting to me that Labour Party politics
0:12:13 > 0:12:16in the immediate future is going to be completely defined
0:12:16 > 0:12:17by this Brexit issue?
0:12:17 > 0:12:19I think politics generally, we are going to have
0:12:19 > 0:12:21to respond to it.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24To reshape the machinery of government, to begin to respond
0:12:24 > 0:12:27to what the results of that referendum were.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30So of course a lot of the stuff coming down the chute,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33so to speak, towards the House of Commons for us to be debating,
0:12:33 > 0:12:36and hopefully shaping and reshaping, is going to be about the nature
0:12:36 > 0:12:38of our exit from Europe and how serious we are.
0:12:39 > 0:12:40How do we actually protect people?
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Can we, actually?
0:12:43 > 0:12:46And I think we should start from the idealistic goal
0:12:46 > 0:12:48that we want, actually, control of our borders,
0:12:48 > 0:12:52therefore free movement.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54But we also want access to the free market.
0:12:54 > 0:12:54People say it...
0:12:54 > 0:12:57You are in a bind.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Because I want to get to the mechanics of where Labour
0:12:59 > 0:13:02goes from here, and the mechanics right now are that there
0:13:02 > 0:13:05is a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn coming from Owen Smith.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07He says that he isn't really ideologically very far
0:13:07 > 0:13:09from Jeremy Corbyn, but there is a question of competence.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13He is competent, Jeremy Corbyn is not competent.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16You have a problem, because you have just told me that Jeremy Corbyn
0:13:16 > 0:13:19doesn't have a cat in hell's chance of appealing to the British public.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21But Owen Smith wanted to remain in Europe,
0:13:21 > 0:13:24and you are telling me that Europe defines the party's future.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27So you haven't got a candidate you can back in this race.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Yes, but surely at some stage reality will break in,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33and the Labour Party will realise we are going to leave Europe,
0:13:33 > 0:13:37and get down to that policy.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40You have talked about Europe, and what Labour need to do to react
0:13:40 > 0:13:42to the result of the referendum.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47But you are a member, you are a veteran MP.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49There are people in constituencies across the country having fierce
0:13:49 > 0:13:51arguments, accusing each other of treachery,
0:13:51 > 0:13:52of intimidation, of plotting.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55The party is at war with itself.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58What is going to happen to give Labour a semblance
0:13:58 > 0:14:02of competent leadership?
0:14:02 > 0:14:03Nothing immediately.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07This will go on for some time.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09And then I do believe, before the election,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11the trade unions will move.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13Sadly I think the stewardship of Jeremy's, interesting
0:14:13 > 0:14:16from lots of ways, about wielding social protest, and so on,
0:14:16 > 0:14:21will then be brought to an end.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24You think Corbyn will beat Smith easily, do you?
0:14:24 > 0:14:28I think, on the showing at present, I will be voting for Smith,
0:14:28 > 0:14:30but I think Corbyn will win.
0:14:30 > 0:14:31I hope I am wrong.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33This is the absurdity of Labour today.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Everything you have said in this interview suggests you couldn't vote
0:14:36 > 0:14:39for Smith, because on a key issue, which as far as you are concerned
0:14:39 > 0:14:42is Europe, he is on entirely the wrong side of the fence
0:14:42 > 0:14:48from you.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52And get you're saying you are not going to vote for him because Corbyn
0:14:52 > 0:14:53is even more useless.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56True, but the key thing is that Smith actually wants to win.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Not just this contest, but the general election.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01He won't be able to win the general election holding the views
0:15:01 > 0:15:02he currently has.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05He will shift, if he serious about winning, and I am interested
0:15:05 > 0:15:07in having somebody who is actually interested in winning.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10Never mind winning, you may find yourself out of a seat.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Because Momentum, a grassroots movement on the far left
0:15:13 > 0:15:16of the party, which backed Jeremy Corbyn, has made it plain
0:15:16 > 0:15:23that those MPs such as yourself who have turned
0:15:23 > 0:15:26against Jeremy Corbyn and want him out, you will face a challenge
0:15:26 > 0:15:27in your constituency.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Some neighbouring constituencies of yours are already at war
0:15:29 > 0:15:30over this issue.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33How will you react if your own constituency tries to topple you?
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Well, we will do our best to prevent that happening,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39as a group of people.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40I have been down this road before.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42In the '80s.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46In the '80s, and all the polls show that if I actually stood
0:15:46 > 0:15:47as independent-Labour, joining the Labour group
0:15:47 > 0:15:55in Parliament afterwards, I would win on that basis.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57Hang on, so if there is mandatory preselection,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and you don't get preselected, you are saying you'll stand
0:16:00 > 0:16:01against the official Labour candidate?
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Providence willing, and I am here to stand in the election,
0:16:04 > 0:16:05I will be in that election, whatever happens.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09So you are - even though you have been a loyal Labour member for many,
0:16:09 > 0:16:12years and in the '80s you stayed in Labour when others left,
0:16:12 > 0:16:15you are saying you are prepared now to contemplate a split.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18No, I am not.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22What I am saying is I am prepared to actually win the Birkenhead seat,
0:16:22 > 0:16:25and join the Parliamentary Labour Party in Parliament.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Yes, but you are also saying if you're not going to stand
0:16:28 > 0:16:30for official Labour you will stand for something else.
0:16:30 > 0:16:37This is the absolute number where Labour is today.
0:16:37 > 0:16:42There are many people like yourself who are saying if Corbyn wins,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45and his cronies and associates dominate the party, we will have
0:16:45 > 0:16:47to create a sort of de facto split.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49We will become an alternative Labour, a sort of -
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I don't know how you would put it, semi-official Labour.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55Is that what is going to happen, a split which isn't called a split?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I have no idea what is going to happen, and what people
0:16:58 > 0:17:01are plotting, because I am not involved in that.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03According to the papers there is lots of plotting going on.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Have you not heard any of these rumours?
0:17:05 > 0:17:07Well, I have heard the rumours.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09What I am interested in is the source of them.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13The key thing is, if we were going to be elected in Parliament,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15and claimed that we should have the short money,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18because the vast majority of Labour MPs re-elect their own leader,
0:17:18 > 0:17:20is whether the Speaker would regard our leader
0:17:20 > 0:17:23as the leader of the opposition, and therefore to in a sense stand up
0:17:23 > 0:17:26at Prime Minister's Question Time and lead the attack on behalf
0:17:26 > 0:17:29of the opposition parties.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Would it be our leader, or does that legal advice
0:17:32 > 0:17:36to the Speaker say that it has to be Jeremy Corbyn?
0:17:36 > 0:17:38If it is us, and the Parliamentary Labour Party
0:17:38 > 0:17:44is in a much stronger position...
0:17:44 > 0:17:49For a man who claims he hasn't thought about this very much,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52you seem to have a great deal of the detail of what might happen
0:17:52 > 0:17:55if you and the Parliamentary party did decide to disassociate
0:17:55 > 0:17:58from the official Corbyn leadership.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01But I don't want to get hung up on legalities.
0:18:01 > 0:18:07I just want to ask you this one final question on this point.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10In the 1980s you saw senior Labour figures like David Owen,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13Shirley Williams, walk away and set up the SDP.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16In the end, after a short burst of optimism, it failed.
0:18:16 > 0:18:22Do you think, even if it is not you, that some of your colleagues
0:18:22 > 0:18:25in the Parliamentary party will try a similar manoeuvre over
0:18:25 > 0:18:26the next few months?
0:18:26 > 0:18:27They would be foolish to do so.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29They should do what I am doing.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31We should actually fly under Labour colours,
0:18:31 > 0:18:34even if there are two of us actually in the ring,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36and win the seats, and come back and reform
0:18:36 > 0:18:42the Parliamentary Labour vote.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45And in the process, of course, we will get a new leader.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47Now, I do want to ask you about something rather specific,
0:18:47 > 0:18:51and in a way it is impressive you have managed to make a lot
0:18:51 > 0:18:53of noise in Parliament about one specific issue,
0:18:53 > 0:18:55even when your party is in total meltdown,
0:18:55 > 0:18:56but you have.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58You have led a Parliamentary committee which has been
0:18:58 > 0:19:01at the forefront of the issue of the collapse of the retail chain
0:19:01 > 0:19:04British Home Stores, BHS, and the role in that collapse
0:19:04 > 0:19:07of Sir Philip Green, who owned it for a long time
0:19:07 > 0:19:09and then sold it for the princely sum of ?1.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11It now turns out the company is riddled with debt,
0:19:12 > 0:19:13and can't afford its pension scheme.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15You have described Sir Philip Green's role as indicative
0:19:15 > 0:19:17of the unacceptable face of capitalism.
0:19:17 > 0:19:22What exactly do you mean by that?
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Unfortunately it is not my phrase, I wouldn't mind having it.
0:19:25 > 0:19:26It was a joint enquiry.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28Iain Wright, the Chair of the Business Select Committee,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31and I join together to do this because we have common interests,
0:19:31 > 0:19:33which actually do - these initial stages overlap.
0:19:33 > 0:19:39What I mean by that is that, since the fall of the Berlin Wall,
0:19:39 > 0:19:44the only show in town is what people call capitalism.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48And therefore it is very important that capitalism, so-called, works.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Is it actually as the Prime Minister says, she wanted to work
0:19:51 > 0:19:55for the many, all of us?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Or is it for the actual few?
0:19:57 > 0:20:01And I think, both in Sports Direct and in BHS, we got examples
0:20:01 > 0:20:03here of corporate behaviour which most people out there think
0:20:03 > 0:20:10is totally unacceptable.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13And therefore we are doing a report, a follow-up on our reports,
0:20:13 > 0:20:19so it's not going to go cold in any way.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21But of course, it does also shift to the Prime Minister,
0:20:21 > 0:20:24and her great strength is actually thinking about concrete issues.
0:20:24 > 0:20:30She isn't, thank God, somebody who wants to spend her time
0:20:30 > 0:20:32thinking what the nature of capitalism, and how
0:20:32 > 0:20:34would I define a fair system?
0:20:34 > 0:20:40She will be concerned about making the present system,
0:20:40 > 0:20:43shoving it along, with all her authority, to make it
0:20:43 > 0:20:47a fairer system.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51And she has now got on her desk two reports, both about Sports Direct
0:20:51 > 0:20:53and British Home Stores, saying this is a challenge
0:20:53 > 0:20:56to what you said, the sort of society your administration,
0:20:56 > 0:21:00your stewardship, is actually going to create.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03The big point, about what it says about capitalism,
0:21:03 > 0:21:04in a minute.
0:21:04 > 0:21:11But just on the specifics, you and Sir Philip Green are now
0:21:11 > 0:21:13locked in a pretty jarring war of words.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17And he has listened to what you have said about him, and he has actually
0:21:17 > 0:21:19now got his lawyers involved, accusing you of defamatory and false
0:21:19 > 0:21:21allegations, demanding a full apology.
0:21:21 > 0:21:22So here's your opportunity.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Are you now going to apologise for the things you have said about...
0:21:25 > 0:21:27No, I am not.
0:21:27 > 0:21:32He says he is going to sue me, I'm really happy to discuss it.
0:21:32 > 0:21:38He knows that if he wants to pursue this we will go to court.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42The first thing I wish - I will ask for is trial by jury.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45So it won't only be me on trial, and that would therefore be another
0:21:45 > 0:21:49front open to put pressure on him to do the decent thing.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53Which is, given the unbelievable amount of loot that he and Lady
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Green and their family have out of BHS and the Arcadia Group,
0:21:56 > 0:21:59that he stumps up handsomely so that no pension is made worse off.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02That is the goal.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06But isn't the point, like he says, that this war of words isn't helping
0:22:06 > 0:22:10the pensions regulator get a deal, which Sir Philip Green has said
0:22:10 > 0:22:13he is ready to be a part of, to actually get some money to those
0:22:13 > 0:22:15pensioners who have lost out big-time?
0:22:15 > 0:22:21It is appropriate that New Labour gave him his knighthood,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25because it is spin, it is wonderful staff.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27He talks about it as voluntary, it is voluntary engaging
0:22:27 > 0:22:29with the regulator.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32The regulator is investigating.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34By law, she is compelling him to actually talk to her.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37She is demanding access to accounts and movements of money,
0:22:37 > 0:22:39of capital, since 2002.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44I mean, the screws are on him,
0:22:44 > 0:22:47big-time, from the pension regulator.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50The idea that somehow it is terrible old me shouting in the wings,
0:22:50 > 0:22:53and he is voluntarily running around trying to get the pensions,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56if you want to believe that, do believe that.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59At the end of the day, we will see what the agreement is.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03Yes, well, what I want to do is actually reflect,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06at the end of this interview, on what we might tie together
0:23:06 > 0:23:09from the discussion we have had about Brexit, and indeed even
0:23:09 > 0:23:11the collapse of British Home Stores.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14You introduced this notion that what is at stake here is the nature
0:23:14 > 0:23:16of capitalism in Britain today.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18It just seems to me that the Labour Party,
0:23:18 > 0:23:20the party of the left, the working classes,
0:23:20 > 0:23:23has abdicated its role in that debate.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26It is ironic, is it not, that Theresa May walks
0:23:26 > 0:23:30in Number Ten Downing Street talking the language of defending the many
0:23:30 > 0:23:34against the privileged few, defending the workers' interests
0:23:34 > 0:23:36against the overpaid corporate losses, and Labour,
0:23:36 > 0:23:41today, isn't even in the argument.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45No.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48I mean, the weaknesses that most people would have cheered if she had
0:23:48 > 0:23:51been a Labour Prime Minister, I am not disagreeing.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53I'm just underscoring the importance of the question,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57how desperate our position is.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59That we are so irrelevant to the conversation going
0:23:59 > 0:24:02on with the electorate, but also how power is exercised
0:24:02 > 0:24:04in this country, that a Prime Minister has got the total
0:24:04 > 0:24:10freedom to shape what her stewardship will be about.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Frank Field, that's it for now.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Much appreciated.
0:24:47 > 0:24:47Hello there, good morning.