0:00:00 > 0:00:02Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14For the foreseeable future, British politics is going to be
0:00:14 > 0:00:16dominated by one issue - Brexit.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20What will our future relationship with the EU look like?
0:00:20 > 0:00:24How will it affect Britain's political and economic future?
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Well, my guest today is Nigel Farage, the newly-retired
0:00:27 > 0:00:30leader of the UK Independence Party.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33It seems odd that the politician who arguably did most to push
0:00:33 > 0:00:38Britain to the exit door has opted out of frontline politics before any
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Brexit deal is done.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44So why has Nigel Farage done a runner?
0:01:11 > 0:01:15Nigel Farage, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19You stood down as Ukip leader just a few days after your triumph,
0:01:19 > 0:01:21the Brexit victory in the referendum.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26You said, my political ambition has been achieved.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28But it hasn't, has it?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31You don't know what Brexit is going to be like.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34We have won the war, we now have to win the peace.
0:01:34 > 0:01:35And I get that.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38Don't forget, that I'm staying on as leader of the group
0:01:38 > 0:01:41in the European Parliament, you know, I will see through that
0:01:41 > 0:01:43process once Article 50 finally gets declared.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45So I'm still going to be involved.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47You very rarely go to the European Parliament,
0:01:47 > 0:01:49so that's not much of a pulpit.
0:01:49 > 0:01:50You've abandoned your main pulpit.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53You were leader of Ukip, Ukip, it has to be said,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55scored a famous victory with this Brexit vote.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58But all of the detail, all of the really important stuff
0:01:58 > 0:02:02of what Brexit will look like, is still to be debated
0:02:02 > 0:02:04and you have walked away.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07I wasn't going to be asked to be directly involved
0:02:07 > 0:02:12in the government negotiations.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15I will, as a former leader of Ukip in the United Kingdom,
0:02:15 > 0:02:17commentate on what the government are doing, encourage
0:02:17 > 0:02:20where it is going well, chide a bit if I don't think
0:02:20 > 0:02:25it is going well, I don't need to be leader of Ukip to do that.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27What I've stepped back from is leading a domestic political
0:02:27 > 0:02:30party, heading it into the next set of elections.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32You know, endless by-elections, county council elections,
0:02:32 > 0:02:33and all of those things.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39You know, I've been doing this quite a long time.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42I am well aware of that, you and I have been talking
0:02:42 > 0:02:43for quite a long time!
0:02:43 > 0:02:46But the cynic would say, and certainly those critical
0:02:46 > 0:02:49of your Brexit views would say, you know, you smashed up the shop
0:02:49 > 0:02:52and now you refuse to engage in the repair process.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55You could argue it's never over in politics, couldn't you?
0:02:55 > 0:02:59You and I can sit here in two and half years time and we've got
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Brexit, but there's an opposition party who wants to challenge it
0:03:02 > 0:03:03at the next general election.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05It's never over, in a sense, in politics.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07But this is what I do think.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10I do think we will leave the European Union, the question
0:03:10 > 0:03:11is on what terms.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15You see, the new leader of your party, Diane James,
0:03:15 > 0:03:19she says, and this is a direct quote, "The Tory party simply cannot
0:03:19 > 0:03:20be trusted with true Brexit".
0:03:20 > 0:03:21Do you agree?
0:03:21 > 0:03:24If you do agree, again, it just seems odd that
0:03:24 > 0:03:26you would vacate the stage when the people in charge
0:03:26 > 0:03:29cannot be trusted.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32However well I do as party leader in county council elections,
0:03:32 > 0:03:34it doesn't really affect that very much, does it?
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Whatever I do in a by-election in Witney or whatever it may be,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40doesn't really affect that very much.
0:03:40 > 0:03:41Well, of course it does.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45It affects it in the same way, that because of the surge of support
0:03:45 > 0:03:51for you and your party in the last few years, David Cameron
0:03:51 > 0:03:54was effectively forced to take the decision to have a referendum,
0:03:54 > 0:03:56so you are important.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58You seem to be denying your own importance.
0:03:58 > 0:03:59I am not running away.
0:03:59 > 0:04:00I'm still there.
0:04:00 > 0:04:01I still exist.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04I'm still part of Ukip, I will support the new leader.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07She is probably going to be a bit worried then, if you're saying
0:04:07 > 0:04:10I am just going to be as important as ever.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14I mean, you're not the leader any more, you can't be leader and not
0:04:14 > 0:04:15leader at the same time.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18In terms of commentary, in terms of engaging in debate,
0:04:18 > 0:04:20I'm going to be there as I was before.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23What I won't be doing is dealing with party politics.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Let's now focus on what Diane James said about the Tory party,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28the Tory leadership not to be trusted.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Article 50, that is the formal way in which the negotiating process
0:04:31 > 0:04:34between Britain and the European Union is triggered.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37It hasn't been triggered, but it seems now from Theresa May's
0:04:37 > 0:04:40words that it won't be triggered until 2017 and many of those around
0:04:40 > 0:04:44this decision seem to believe it may not be taken until late 2017.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45Do you think that's acceptable?
0:04:45 > 0:04:46That would be a disaster.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49That would be a disaster, because in terms of,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51once Article 50 is triggered, in terms of our negotiations,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55one of the biggest opportunities are the elections taking place,
0:04:55 > 0:04:58the presidential elections in France in the spring of next year
0:04:58 > 0:05:01and of course in Germany we've got the general election happening
0:05:02 > 0:05:03in October of next year.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06And one of the big things that British negotiators need to do
0:05:06 > 0:05:09is they need to go and meet every German car manufacturer,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12every French wine grower, that may be pushing it a bit,
0:05:12 > 0:05:14but the big French wine producers.
0:05:14 > 0:05:15Because ultimately, a nontariff free deal,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18which for us, by the way, doesn't sound very attractive,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22but it is better than where we are now, but a nontariff free
0:05:22 > 0:05:24deal actually affects German workers and French workers far more
0:05:24 > 0:05:26adversely potentially than it does us.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29We need to be making these arguments and making this part
0:05:29 > 0:05:30of the German general election.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Just be clear, when you talk about a nontariff free deal,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36you're saying that you believe it is possible to get a deal
0:05:36 > 0:05:42which involves tarrif-free access to the single market
0:05:42 > 0:05:44while at the same time completely walking away from the principle
0:05:45 > 0:05:49of the free movement of labour?
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Well, there are 48 other countries in the world that have just that.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56This is the point, isn't it, we are living in a world
0:05:56 > 0:05:59where all over the world we have seen a mushrooming of free trade
0:05:59 > 0:06:02agreements between countries, in every continent on the planet.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05And free trade agreements do not virtually ever include the free
0:06:05 > 0:06:08movement of people.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11The reason that the EU initially will play hardball is
0:06:11 > 0:06:15because they are fearful that if they were seen to give this
0:06:15 > 0:06:18to the United Kingdom, that half the other countries
0:06:18 > 0:06:21of the European Union would want the same thing too.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23That is a very real fear which is why everybody
0:06:23 > 0:06:26from Juncker to Merkel, to Tusk, all of them
0:06:26 > 0:06:29are saying your vision of what might be achieved is completely,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32utterly unrealistic, it is not going to happen.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35At what point will you start to believe their words?
0:06:35 > 0:06:37As a starting point for negotiations, you would be
0:06:37 > 0:06:39surprised if they said any different.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I have a feeling they've got problems about to subsume them that
0:06:42 > 0:06:45are rather bigger than Brexit negotiations.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49I think that frankly, the bust up between the Eastern European
0:06:49 > 0:06:56countries and Germany effectively, over Angela Merkel saying last year
0:06:56 > 0:06:58as many people as want to come can.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01And when they did come, Germany then says through
0:07:01 > 0:07:03the European Commission, you must take quotas,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06numbers of people.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08And I don't see that changing at all.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10My point is this.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Europe is beset by problems, they can start off if they want
0:07:13 > 0:07:16being tough with the United Kingdom, but ultimately their electorates,
0:07:16 > 0:07:19you know, the German car workers union, the French wine producers,
0:07:19 > 0:07:22want a sensible deal with the UK.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27But my instinct is that if you want to find problems,
0:07:27 > 0:07:29you're better off looking much closer to home.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33You're going to find problems when you look at what Theresa May
0:07:33 > 0:07:36and perhaps Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson actually do over the next
0:07:36 > 0:07:39few months in terms of their relationship with Europe.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Theresa May has already made it clear she is not interested in some
0:07:42 > 0:07:45of the ideas you put forward during the Brexit campaign.
0:07:45 > 0:07:46I know, yeah.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49I mean, you talked about the points system to control future migration.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Well, to be fair, to be fair to the Prime Minister,
0:07:52 > 0:07:54there are other ways of doing it.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56But given her record as Home Secretary, yes,
0:07:56 > 0:07:57I'm slightly nervous.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59You said just a few days ago
0:07:59 > 0:08:00you feared backsliding from Theresa May.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04So you don't trust Theresa May, basically, if she is a backslider,
0:08:04 > 0:08:05you clearly don't trust her.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07You know, she started off saying wonderful things.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11She wasn't the Prime Minister I would have chosen, but it all looked
0:08:11 > 0:08:13really good for the first few weeks.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16And the first wobble that I saw was at the G20 when she stood
0:08:16 > 0:08:19beneath the flags and said, people had voted for some degree
0:08:19 > 0:08:20of control over immigration.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22Well, no, we didn't.
0:08:22 > 0:08:23We voted for control.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Right, so you're worried about Theresa May, you must be
0:08:25 > 0:08:28worried about Boris Johnson because he was perhaps the most
0:08:28 > 0:08:29high-profile leader of the...
0:08:29 > 0:08:30He was very important.
0:08:30 > 0:08:31He was very important.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34This is what he said after the Brexit result.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37He said, the British people will still be able to go and work
0:08:37 > 0:08:40in the EU, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes,
0:08:41 > 0:08:42to settle down.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48I mean, Boris seemed to be saying don't worry,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51people, nothing much is going to change at all.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53Ultimately there is one certainty from Brexit, total certainty.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56That we have voted to take back control of our country.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58We've voted to make all these big decisions.
0:08:58 > 0:09:00But nobody knows what that means.
0:09:00 > 0:09:01My point to you is...
0:09:01 > 0:09:03It is very simple, actually.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05Parliament makes our laws, our own courts judge them.
0:09:05 > 0:09:06End of.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07That is what we voted for.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09That is the ultimate test of sovereignty.
0:09:09 > 0:09:14It is very interesting you say Parliament makes the laws.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18I mean, David Davis has made it plain that Parliament won't be
0:09:18 > 0:09:19consulted through this negotiating process.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22He says it's far too sensitive and confidential and he said
0:09:22 > 0:09:26to a committee just the other day, I may not be able to tell
0:09:26 > 0:09:27you everything even in private hearings.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30So the government is going to do this on its own.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33It's not going to listen to Nigel Farage.
0:09:33 > 0:09:34They have a mandate to do that.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37They have a mandate to do that, of course they do.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39But I would also add this.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42There wasn't much confusion in terms of what was being said
0:09:42 > 0:09:43during the Brexit campaign.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Everybody from the figures on the right of politics,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48and let's say for example, Boris Johnson and
0:09:48 > 0:09:49Michael Gove, we had...
0:09:49 > 0:09:51Just in parentheses, do you believe that Boris Johnson
0:09:51 > 0:09:54really, in his heart, is committed to Brexit in the way
0:09:54 > 0:09:58you are, or for him was it a vehicle for personal, physical ambition?
0:09:58 > 0:10:00Oh, I think he believed in it.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04I think it may have taken him a long time to make his mind up.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06But he had gone from being a Eurosceptic journalist
0:10:06 > 0:10:09in Brussels back in the 1990s, to appearing to support the project.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13I think in the end he did make his mind up and I
0:10:13 > 0:10:14think it was genuine.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16But all of us, Ukip, Conservative, Labour,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19all of us that argued for Brexit made it clear.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22We want to make our own laws in our own country,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24control our own borders, and crucially, not be members
0:10:24 > 0:10:25of the single market.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28No confusion about that in terms of people that voted for Brexit.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31Well, you say no confusion and you are very clear
0:10:31 > 0:10:32in your own mind.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36Does it stick in your throat that during the campaign before June 23rd
0:10:36 > 0:10:38and clearly since June 23rd, people like Theresa May
0:10:38 > 0:10:40and David Davis steadfastly refuse to consult you?
0:10:41 > 0:10:42Oh, they won't do.
0:10:42 > 0:10:43Why do you think that is?
0:10:43 > 0:10:46Look, they hate me, I have cost them a Prime Minister,
0:10:46 > 0:10:47Chancellor, a European Commissioner.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51Why would Theresa May hate you, you have got her into number ten?
0:10:51 > 0:10:52Because it's a psychological thing.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56They see me as having wounded the tribe, and that's a crime that
0:10:56 > 0:10:57can never be forgiven.
0:10:57 > 0:10:58I couldn't care less about that.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02I knew the day after Brexit that they were not going to involve
0:11:02 > 0:11:05me in any of their teams or any of their negotiations.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10I got that, I understood that.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13I've taken the view that I can do a lot from the European Parliament
0:11:13 > 0:11:16and a lot, actually probably more, on the European question,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19not being leader of a domestic political party which means
0:11:19 > 0:11:22being on the road the whole time, supporting election campaigns
0:11:22 > 0:11:22up-and-down the country.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25So I know exactly where I am with this.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26I'm happy with that.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I am worried about the government, I am worried about...
0:11:29 > 0:11:31And let's just get to a yes, no thing.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33You don't trust this government.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35I was told years ago, never trust the Tories,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37and that thought hasn't gone away.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40So let me just expand on that thought and ask you,
0:11:40 > 0:11:44you know, if you see that Brexit isn't going to be delivered by 2020
0:11:44 > 0:11:45for example, what do you do then?
0:11:45 > 0:11:47That's a perfectly fair question.
0:11:47 > 0:11:48To me, Brexit is easy.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51We have back British passports, we have control of our fishing
0:11:51 > 0:11:54waters and our companies are not subject to EU law
0:11:54 > 0:11:55through the single market.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58They are my three tests, if you like, of what Brexit
0:11:58 > 0:11:59means by 2020.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02I hope I'm wrong, I hope they deliver all of these things.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04Well, let's get to my question.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06What do you do if it isn't delivered by 2020?
0:12:06 > 0:12:08Well, then I couldn't walk away, could I?
0:12:08 > 0:12:10I wouldn't be able...
0:12:10 > 0:12:11This is another Farage semiretirement?
0:12:11 > 0:12:14No, I hope I never stand for election again.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Ever, anywhere.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20I hope I don't need to.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22I did not come into this for a career.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26I came into this for a cause, for a crusade.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29Let's if we may just cast our minds back for a brief moment
0:12:29 > 0:12:30to the campaign itself.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Are you ready now to express regret for some of the things including,
0:12:34 > 0:12:36frankly, falsehoods, that were peddled by the Leave
0:12:36 > 0:12:38campaign during the campaign?
0:12:38 > 0:12:41We've had 45 years of lies from those supporting the European
0:12:41 > 0:12:45project, telling us it was a common market, don't worry your little
0:12:45 > 0:12:46heads, it'll never be political.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47And they go online.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49The very day the European...
0:12:49 > 0:12:52I wasn't asking about their campaign, I was asking about yours.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54Do you regret the lies that were told on your side?
0:12:54 > 0:12:57On the very day the European constitution was produced
0:12:57 > 0:13:00by Giscard, the House of Commons was told by the Europe Minister
0:13:00 > 0:13:02it was a mere tidying up exercise.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04Giscard said it was for a superstate.
0:13:04 > 0:13:10So we've had to put up with an endless diet of lies.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12Now, as far as the Leave campaign was concerned,
0:13:12 > 0:13:15there was one mistake that was made.
0:13:15 > 0:13:15What was that?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17There was a factual mistake.
0:13:17 > 0:13:18What was that?
0:13:18 > 0:13:19That was the 350 million.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21And that was a factual mistake.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23It was on the poster, on the battle bus.
0:13:23 > 0:13:24A very small factual mistake.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28The message to the people, if you vote Brexit and get Brexit,
0:13:28 > 0:13:30?350 million a week will go to the NHS.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32And that is a complete falsehood.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34And if you vote Brexit, according to the Chancellor,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37each family will lose 4500 quid a year.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Why redirect my question with a pop at the opposition?
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Why not now, because it's over, why not acknowledge some things
0:13:42 > 0:13:46were said that were false, that were lies, and you regret it?
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I think that was the only fundamental mistake that was made.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50In terms of a fact.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52A fundamental mistake, because you were cynical,
0:13:52 > 0:13:54because you would say almost anything to win?
0:13:54 > 0:13:57It wasn't my figure and I argued very strongly against it.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00I sat talking to Michael Gove as I'm talking to you now,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03saying, drop it, it's an error, it does not work.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Because the net figure is 220 million a week and no one
0:14:06 > 0:14:07could argue with that.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10Now actually, did it being 350 as opposed to 220,
0:14:10 > 0:14:11shift one single vote?
0:14:11 > 0:14:12I doubt it.
0:14:12 > 0:14:18But it did leave the establishment with a stick to beat us.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20Well, they have other sticks too.
0:14:20 > 0:14:27That poster that you revealed, the breaking point.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Was that a lie or was it a factual picture?
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Well, I'm not discussing whether the picture itself
0:14:32 > 0:14:33was factual or not.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36I'm discussing the message it sent to the people of Britain.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39There you were with your poster, which pictured all these people
0:14:39 > 0:14:42queueing at one of the border crossings into Europe's eastern
0:14:42 > 0:14:45flank, they were Syrians, Afghans probably, and Somalis.
0:14:45 > 0:14:46They weren't there queueing.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49They were getting across borders because fences were going up.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52It was part of the Merkel madness.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55They were not immigrants from Europe coming into the United Kingdom.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57And that was the clear implication of that poster.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01And that's why the poster said the EU has failed us all.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Look, let me explain something about that
0:15:03 > 0:15:03to you, OK?
0:15:03 > 0:15:08That morning, and that by the way was the first of a series of posters
0:15:08 > 0:15:10we were running for the last week of the campaign.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13That was the only one that was about the broader European
0:15:13 > 0:15:15question rather than the UK.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17That morning, that poster appeared in full-page national ads
0:15:17 > 0:15:19in a handful of British newspapers.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24It had been released at 10pm the night before via the internet.
0:15:24 > 0:15:25It was out everywhere.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31And do you know something?
0:15:31 > 0:15:33There was very little criticism or condemnation of it.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34Very little.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Your own MP, the one MP you got in Westminster,
0:15:37 > 0:15:38said he was deeply uncomfortable.
0:15:38 > 0:15:44He said nothing.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46He said he was deeply uncomfortable.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49You've got to listen to me and understand what I'm telling you.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50What happened in this referendum campaign,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53there was barely a note of criticism about that poster.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56But when your own MP says he is deeply...
0:15:56 > 0:15:56He said nothing.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58What do you mean, he said nothing?
0:15:58 > 0:16:01Will you listen to me about the timings of this?
0:16:01 > 0:16:04There was very little criticism of that poster and then,
0:16:04 > 0:16:06that afternoon, Jo Cox was murdered on a Yorkshire
0:16:06 > 0:16:07Street.
0:16:07 > 0:16:07OK?
0:16:07 > 0:16:08Yes, the Labour MP.
0:16:08 > 0:16:09An horrendous event.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11And the Remain campaign decided they would conflate that poster
0:16:11 > 0:16:14with her killing and that is when all the criticism started.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18Had that awful murder not happened, you wouldn't even be asking me.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21The bottom line is your own MP reviled from that poster
0:16:21 > 0:16:21and its message.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Everybody ran for the hills because they're all cowards
0:16:24 > 0:16:26and they didn't want to take any stick.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28Your own MP is a coward?
0:16:28 > 0:16:29Well, he's not Ukip.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32He doesn't believe we should even discuss the immigration issue.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33He never has done, all right?
0:16:33 > 0:16:35That is a separate issue.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40My head is spinning.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43You are now telling me that even your own single elected MP
0:16:43 > 0:16:44is a coward?
0:16:44 > 0:16:45I didn't say that.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47I said he's not Ukip.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50You said they're all cowards, they ran for the hills.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53Well, they all did, they all ran for the hills.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57I mean, goodness me, the Vote Leave campaign had put out
0:16:57 > 0:16:59some very aggressive posters but you've got to understand
0:16:59 > 0:17:01the context of what happened.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04The Remain side deliberately tried to use that horrible murder.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07I'm sure you know this much better than me because it
0:17:07 > 0:17:07involved you personally.
0:17:07 > 0:17:1040,000 people signed a petition describing it as incitement
0:17:10 > 0:17:11to racial hatred.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13The Crown Prosecution Service said they will review the case.
0:17:13 > 0:17:14Well, let them.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17It's true, you can get as upset as you like,
0:17:17 > 0:17:18it's a fact.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21That picture shows you what happened when Mrs Merkel made this huge error
0:17:21 > 0:17:22she made last year.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26You yourself would barely have known of the existence of this had it not
0:17:26 > 0:17:28been for that horrible murder.
0:17:28 > 0:17:29And that's what happened.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32So when I ask you whether there are things you regret,
0:17:32 > 0:17:34you certainly are not interested in expressing any sort
0:17:34 > 0:17:36of regret for that?
0:17:36 > 0:17:39I regret the truth, I regret the ridiculous things that
0:17:39 > 0:17:40Mrs Merkel has done to Europe.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44I regret an endless series now of terrorist attacks that are taking
0:17:44 > 0:17:44place in Europe.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47As a direct result of irresponsible policy of letting people
0:17:47 > 0:17:50into the Schengen area, wholesale, without any checks at all.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53Let's talk about the state of Ukip, if we may.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56You say you are still actively involved and as you say,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58you're leading a group in the European Parliament as leader
0:17:58 > 0:17:59of the Ukip delegation.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02So you certainly haven't walked away entirely from the party.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05But the party is in a big mess, isn't it?
0:18:05 > 0:18:10I mean some of the party's most senior figures...
0:18:10 > 0:18:13It's in a mess because it has one MP who doesn't agree with anything
0:18:14 > 0:18:14the party stands for.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16And that is a problem.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19It's a problem because it is perceived to be a problem.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22Does the fact that he doesn't agree with anything we do,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25he condemns all our officials, he tried in the referendum to split
0:18:25 > 0:18:28us down the middle, does that actually affect out
0:18:28 > 0:18:29in the country, the branches?
0:18:29 > 0:18:30No, not really.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32It's a conversation, it's a media conversation.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Has it really damaged the grassroots of Ukip?
0:18:34 > 0:18:35I would say it hasn't.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37Some of the party's most senior strategists think,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39including the woman Alexandra Phillips who worked
0:18:39 > 0:18:41so closely with you, have joined the Tories.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Well, I think she was treated very badly by the party in Wales.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Let me tell you, there is one fundamental thing that has
0:18:48 > 0:18:49changed in Ukip.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51It was a grassroots party, it was an upwelling.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54It has had a volunteer structure through a national executive that
0:18:54 > 0:18:56runs it and makes the big decisions.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Those people I'm afraid have been very vulnerable to lobbying
0:18:59 > 0:19:00by professional career politicians.
0:19:00 > 0:19:05And that has not helped Ukip over the last 18 months.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08But, you know, it's not just about people's careerism,
0:19:08 > 0:19:08it's about ideas.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Alexandra Phillips, who worked so closely with you,
0:19:11 > 0:19:13this is what she said the other day.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Ideologically, the Tories are doing the Ukip dance now.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18If you look at our 2015 manifesto, Theresa May has announced it
0:19:18 > 0:19:21all in the first months of being Prime Minister.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23Grammar schools, fracking, Brexit means Brexit,
0:19:23 > 0:19:27controlling immigration.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30Yes, it all sounded very good in the first few weeks,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33and now it's not sounding quite so good, is it?
0:19:33 > 0:19:35Well, that's not what she says.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37She says, what's the point of Ukip any more?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39If the Tories are delivering what you wanted?
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Well, will they deliver it?
0:19:41 > 0:19:42You know, will they deliver it?
0:19:42 > 0:19:44That's the point, isn't it?
0:19:44 > 0:19:46That really is the key to all of this.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49And I worry, you know, I mean the Hinkley Point deal,
0:19:49 > 0:19:51a very good case in point.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53We were very critical of a Hinkley Point deal done
0:19:53 > 0:19:56with the Chinese over nuclear installations by George Osborne.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59The Prime Minister gave us the impression in the first couple
0:19:59 > 0:20:01of weeks she was going to veto it.
0:20:01 > 0:20:02Now it's been accepted.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06There are a lot of rumours flying around, I'm sure you are very aware
0:20:06 > 0:20:09of them, you say you're still in Ukip, of course
0:20:09 > 0:20:12you still are in Ukip but you've got a very good friend,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Arron Banks, who says he's prepared to spend millions of pounds creating
0:20:15 > 0:20:16a new movement.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19I think is going to call it the People's Movement
0:20:19 > 0:20:20although he has probably not decided.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22But he wants you to lead it.
0:20:22 > 0:20:23Will you?
0:20:23 > 0:20:25No, I'll help, I'll support, of course I will.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27I think that grassroots campaigning has a role,
0:20:28 > 0:20:28a big role.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31I think what leave.eu did in the referendum by building up
0:20:31 > 0:20:34a million online supporters was a really fascinating development
0:20:34 > 0:20:35in British politics.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37And we've seen it on the left, haven't we?
0:20:37 > 0:20:39We've seen 38 Degrees, we've seen Momentum.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43So I think what Mr Banks wants to do is a very sensible thing.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46He also wants to internationalise this movement and he said that
0:20:46 > 0:20:49you can be a figurehead across Europe and you're not even
0:20:49 > 0:20:52stopping at Europe, you've just come back from the United States.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54You were at the US convention, smiling broadly, watching
0:20:54 > 0:20:55Donald Trump accept the nomination.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58And since then you've actually appeared at a major campaign
0:20:58 > 0:20:59rally with him.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02Saying not for all the money in the world would you contemplate
0:21:02 > 0:21:03voting for Hillary Clinton.
0:21:03 > 0:21:04No.
0:21:04 > 0:21:06Do you really, with all of his policies, you know,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09banning Muslims from entering the country, building a great big
0:21:09 > 0:21:11wall with Mexico, calling Mexicans rapists and criminals.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14You really think Donald Trump would be good for America,
0:21:14 > 0:21:16do you, is he your sort of politician?
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Well we are building a big wall in Calais as we speak.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23And George Bush built 600 miles of a wall with the Mexicans.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26You know, he has said some things, of course he's said some things
0:21:26 > 0:21:27I don't agree with.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Of course there are positions on social issues where any British
0:21:30 > 0:21:32politician and any American politician, you know,
0:21:32 > 0:21:33simply aren't going to meet.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37But, you know, I went to tell the story of Brexit and the story
0:21:37 > 0:21:41of Brexit is bigger than just the United Kingdom voting to leave
0:21:41 > 0:21:43and what the negotiating process will be.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46I think actually the story of Brexit is something that could completely
0:21:46 > 0:21:48transform politics across the entire Western world.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50Why, what is it about Brexit that could have
0:21:50 > 0:21:51this international resonance?
0:21:51 > 0:21:52It's very simple.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55You know, when all is said and done, Brexit happened because about 2.5
0:21:55 > 0:21:59million people who did not vote at the last election and who in many
0:21:59 > 0:22:02cases had never voted in their lives, went to the polls.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05And a clear majority of them did vote for Brexit.
0:22:05 > 0:22:06That is what swung it.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09And so the message that sends is that actually,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12big politics and the big banks, the big businesses, don't always
0:22:12 > 0:22:14have to win.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17You know the sort of person that moans, it's hopeless,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19I hate it, but I can't change it.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21What Brexit shows is things can change.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24And I think that what Trump is perhaps beginning to do
0:22:24 > 0:22:29is to reach into some of that electorate.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33That is Trump, and do you think also that Marine Le Pen in France,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35that Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, maybe AFD,
0:22:35 > 0:22:38Alternative for Germany in Germany, these are allies that you now
0:22:38 > 0:22:41want to help, specifically help, to win power in their countries?
0:22:41 > 0:22:49Is that going to be good for you?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52I'm going to be a little bit cautious about, you know,
0:22:52 > 0:22:53who exactly I support.
0:22:53 > 0:22:54Marine Le Pen?
0:22:54 > 0:22:55Geert Wilders?
0:22:55 > 0:22:57Are those people you believe represent your values?
0:22:57 > 0:22:59No, I've never worked directly with them.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01I'm just asking you, do they represent your values?
0:23:01 > 0:23:01Today?
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Not in every way, no.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06What is it about them then that is different from you?
0:23:06 > 0:23:09I think you know, in the case of Mr Wilders, I think that...
0:23:09 > 0:23:10Is it racism?
0:23:10 > 0:23:10Xenophobia?
0:23:10 > 0:23:11What is it?
0:23:11 > 0:23:14On the one hand, Geert Wilders argues for freedom of speech,
0:23:14 > 0:23:15which I get.
0:23:15 > 0:23:16I understand that.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20But then in the next sentence he says he wants to ban the Koran.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Well, there's a slight inconsistency going on there.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25As far as Marine Le Pen is concerned, she has done good
0:23:25 > 0:23:28things, she's done good things with the Front National.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31From the days of her father and the things that it stood
0:23:31 > 0:23:34for then, she has modernised the party, she has moved on.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37I still think it's got a way to go.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40And a final thought, because perhaps, well there is no
0:23:40 > 0:23:43perhaps about it, the most important election coming up
0:23:43 > 0:23:44is the US election.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48You, to be clear about it, you believe it is best for the world
0:23:48 > 0:23:51as well as the United States, for Donald Trump to win?
0:23:51 > 0:23:52I don't want Hillary to win because...
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Well, that is not what I asked you.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Do you want Donald Trump to win?
0:23:57 > 0:23:59I don't want Hillary to win, let's put it like that.
0:23:59 > 0:24:04Well, no, I want you to tell me if you want Donald Trump to win?
0:24:04 > 0:24:06The West needs change, the West needs change, big change.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09Get away from these governments that are virtually owned
0:24:09 > 0:24:10by the multinationals.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14That have led us into an endless series of war, where we have seen
0:24:14 > 0:24:16the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
0:24:16 > 0:24:17We need change.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Nigel Farage, we have to end there.
0:24:19 > 0:24:29Thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:44 > 0:24:45Hello once again.