:00:00. > :00:14.Think of Israel's turbulent history since the '67 war
:00:15. > :00:18.and you think first of the political leaders, Golda Meir, Begin, Rabin,
:00:19. > :00:23.Other crucial figures in Israel's story spent more time in the
:00:24. > :00:29.shadows, like my guest today, Avi Dichter, who was head
:00:30. > :00:32.of the Shin Bet, Israel's internal Security
:00:33. > :00:38.Only later did he enter politics as a minister
:00:39. > :00:41.and now a parliamentary ally of Prime Minister Netanyahu.
:00:42. > :00:43.So how does this gatekeeper of Israel's
:00:44. > :01:26.He talked about Israel wrestling for five
:01:27. > :01:29.decades, with his phrase, "The tragedy of victory in the '67 war."
:01:30. > :01:33.Do you know what he means by that?
:01:34. > :01:37.I don't know what he means by saying that.
:01:38. > :01:43.If you ask me about what's our aim in the Middle East, on life.
:01:44. > :01:46.I would tell you that victory is what we need.
:01:47. > :01:59.Victory, however long and hard the road may be.
:02:00. > :02:04.For without victory it is impossible to survive.
:02:05. > :02:07.Familiar words, I believe that you heard years ago
:02:08. > :02:09.from your Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, in '41.
:02:10. > :02:19.Let me interpret what I thought he was driving at.
:02:20. > :02:24.The founding father, if you like, of the state of Israel
:02:25. > :02:28.and Ben-Gurion, even a month after the massive
:02:29. > :02:31.success of the '67 wars, he told Israelis, we must be very
:02:32. > :02:43.If we do not hand back this occupied land very fast,
:02:44. > :02:48.it could, in end, destroy us, and you haven't handed it back.
:02:49. > :02:53.Well, you are speaking probably only on the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
:02:54. > :03:00.But we have to remember that '67 war was a war that we got back to Sinai,
:03:01. > :03:02.which is three times bigger than the whole state
:03:03. > :03:07.You've got the Golan Heights, that was a threat to the
:03:08. > :03:11.state of Israel, to the northern part of Israel for years, since '48.
:03:12. > :03:20.At least Golan Heights is, until today, under the Israeli
:03:21. > :03:22.hands, and know what is going on in Syria
:03:23. > :03:25.and the Sinai Peninsula, three times bigger than the state
:03:26. > :03:28.of Israel was given back to the last centimetre, in the peace
:03:29. > :03:33.Yes, it was and the point about Sinai is there were some
:03:34. > :03:37.Jewish settlers, but in essence it was a land with very few people.
:03:38. > :03:47.50 years almost of occupation of millions of Palestinians.
:03:48. > :03:51.You are right, the West Bank is the focus of this conversation,
:03:52. > :03:55.You continue to rule these people's lives and to David Ben-Gurion
:03:56. > :03:58.that was always going to be a profound problem for Israel.
:03:59. > :04:13.No doubt that David Ben-Gurion, the Prime Minister, he's the leader
:04:14. > :04:17.we ever had in the state of Israel, but to remind us that
:04:18. > :04:19.David Ben-Gurion, at the first junction at the
:04:20. > :04:22.state of Israel, or almost state of Israel, November '47, he had to
:04:23. > :04:26.decide about the partition plan that says 55% to the state of Israel, 55%
:04:27. > :04:30.of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan valley.
:04:31. > :04:49.We can't pass every historical moment, we don't have time to do
:04:50. > :04:53.that. What IM trying to do is this, today, is rarely military forces
:04:54. > :04:58.continue to occupy the West Bank. According to all international law,
:04:59. > :05:09.East Jerusalem as taken in 1967, remains occupied territory. Do you
:05:10. > :05:10.believe it is sustainable today for the health of Israeli society to
:05:11. > :05:21.continue with this status quo? You know, we've tried to solve
:05:22. > :05:25.the problem in the Gaza Strip. When in 1994, I was then the head
:05:26. > :05:29.of the southern commander of And we handed over Gaza Strip,
:05:30. > :05:32.except the Israeli settlements, it was all handed over to Arafat and
:05:33. > :05:35.his troops. And in 2005, from the
:05:36. > :05:38.Gaza Strip and we are Try and analyse what happened over
:05:39. > :05:52.those 11 years in the In a military coup
:05:53. > :05:56.against Mahmoud Abbas and his troops.
:05:57. > :05:58.And we are talking about the
:05:59. > :06:01.two-state solution. One-state solution, practically
:06:02. > :06:04.we live in a three-state solution. The state of Israel, the Palestinian
:06:05. > :06:06.Authority under Abbas with and the third under
:06:07. > :06:09.Hamas in the Gaza Strip. I want you to talk,
:06:10. > :06:19.if you would, about Israel. We talk to many Palestinians
:06:20. > :06:22.and we investigate what they have done and are doing very directly,
:06:23. > :06:26.but I want you to answer this question: There are people,
:06:27. > :06:29.including a fellow head of Shin Bet in the recent past, who say
:06:30. > :06:33.with the 50th anniversary of the occupation approaching,
:06:34. > :06:35.it is time to consult A so-called decision
:06:36. > :06:39.at 50, where the Israeli people have a simple
:06:40. > :06:42.vote, do you want to continue the occupation,
:06:43. > :06:45.or is it time to end the occupation? Stephen, to be transparent Amui
:06:46. > :06:50.Ayalon is a good friend of mine. He's a hero in Israel, due to his
:06:51. > :06:59.role during the leader and the Politically we are not agreeing
:07:00. > :07:06.about many other issues. I don't think that the referendum
:07:07. > :07:14.is the right answer to the Israelis. Maybe the right answer
:07:15. > :07:16.to other countries. If you want to decide
:07:17. > :07:22.about Israel about what should Israel do
:07:23. > :07:25.in the West Bank, you have to fight in politics to become part
:07:26. > :07:27.of the Israeli political system, Government,
:07:28. > :07:31.Knesset and over there that is the field to decide about what and how
:07:32. > :07:35.it is going to be solved. You are a great friend
:07:36. > :07:38.of Ayalon ,you are a He said it during his
:07:39. > :07:45.most recent victorious election campaign, there will be no
:07:46. > :07:49.Palestinian state as long as I am The latest polling done
:07:50. > :07:55.by Jerusalem Post and others finds that a majority of Israeli
:07:56. > :08:00.adults support the idea of two states for two nations as a way out
:08:01. > :08:04.of this endless conflict. Why not, right now,
:08:05. > :08:09.consult the Israeli people? You know, we say: You cannot clap
:08:10. > :08:13.hands with one hand. For years, neither under
:08:14. > :08:18.Yasser Arafat or Abbas. Now we do understand
:08:19. > :08:23.that when you try to go forward in the region of
:08:24. > :08:29.the Palestinian Authority, the first block, that blocks everything
:08:30. > :08:37.is the fact that we are not having in front of us,
:08:38. > :08:40.with us, one Palestinian state that has one law and one for
:08:41. > :08:43.internal security. Since then we speak about solution
:08:44. > :08:59.for the Gaza Strip, a solution for the West Bank and when
:09:00. > :09:01.Netanyahu said it won't be a Palestinian state as long as he's
:09:02. > :09:05.Prime Minister, you know, if he would have met here in 1977,
:09:06. > :09:08.September or October 1977, and we would have talked about Israeli,
:09:09. > :09:12.Egyptian solution, nobody even And just one month
:09:13. > :09:18.later, Beging as a Prime Minister signed
:09:19. > :09:23.or started to run the... Mr Netanyahu is no Begin
:09:24. > :09:29.and you know it. Right now we've had years
:09:30. > :09:31.and years of Netanyahu You can say he refuses
:09:32. > :09:38.to talk to Netanyahu. The peace process, that
:09:39. > :09:40.phrase which has become I just wonder when you look
:09:41. > :09:44.at Israel today, what do you think the continued
:09:45. > :09:47.occupation is doing to Israeli Well, I think that our presence
:09:48. > :09:55.in the West Bank in some areas is needed in order to make
:09:56. > :09:59.sure that Israel is secure enough. Mr Dichter, you are not
:10:00. > :10:04.answering my questions. What do you think it is doing
:10:05. > :10:09.to the Israeli psyche? Let me quote to you another former
:10:10. > :10:12.head of the Shin Bet. He said this, "We are
:10:13. > :10:17.making the lives of millions, millions of
:10:18. > :10:20.Palestinians unbearable. You are referring to
:10:21. > :10:28.The gatekeepers, the movie the Gatekeepers and he refers,
:10:29. > :10:31.as far as I terror attacks were launched
:10:32. > :10:37.from both Gaza Strip and He referred to the role that
:10:38. > :10:47.Shin Bet played at that time. He is reflecting at the end of his,
:10:48. > :10:55.long retired, reflecting on what this sustained occupation, all
:10:56. > :10:57.of the checkpoints, the road blocks, the building of the wall,
:10:58. > :11:01.the separation, the way in way your forces and your intelligence
:11:02. > :11:04.services are inside the lives of the Palestinians, day
:11:05. > :11:07.upon day, upon day. He's reflecting on what that
:11:08. > :11:12.does to Israel. Everything and every such question
:11:13. > :11:15.has to be measured by I've been head of Shin Bet
:11:16. > :11:21.when we started to suffer the Within three years, 900
:11:22. > :11:24.Israelis got killed. The life of Israel and
:11:25. > :11:29.of people in Israel, let alone visitors, let alone
:11:30. > :11:34.the economy, almost crashed. And the only way to block
:11:35. > :11:38.it was by building the barrier, building the fence,
:11:39. > :11:42.putting checkpoints, whatever, and pouring a lot of
:11:43. > :11:48.thousands of soldiers and security people into the area in order to
:11:49. > :11:50.bring it down. And if I may add one more
:11:51. > :11:55.thing, by accetping the You, as head of Shin Bet
:11:56. > :11:59.gave the green light, for example, for the dropping
:12:00. > :12:02.of the bomb on a home killing a dozen people,
:12:03. > :12:07.most innocent civilians. You know, in my circle of life
:12:08. > :12:20.in fighting terrorists I know very well that accurate information and
:12:21. > :12:23.determination is the only way The problem is that sometimes your
:12:24. > :12:27.information is not accurate enough. In the movie the Gatekeepers said
:12:28. > :12:50.the terrible thing is there is no morality when you are
:12:51. > :12:51.fighting terrorism. No, I heard it when
:12:52. > :12:57.he said it in the Where is morality in
:12:58. > :13:06.killing a dozen civilians. From my 45 years in fighting
:13:07. > :13:09.terrorists, I know exactly what it does mean to neglect
:13:10. > :13:11.terrorists just because they're some kind of
:13:12. > :13:13.international pressure. In my life I have learned
:13:14. > :13:16.that we say it in Arabic: Thousands mothers of terrorists
:13:17. > :13:19.will cry, but not our mothers, and that is
:13:20. > :13:23.the way we are cracking on terrorists, mainly by detaining
:13:24. > :13:27.them, bringing them, that's first to, the first when you
:13:28. > :13:30.are dealing with terrorists, Israel prides itself on being better
:13:31. > :13:40.than the terrorists. I just wonder what is happening
:13:41. > :13:45.in Israeli society today. One very famous case in the last few
:13:46. > :13:48.months in the spring, in Hebron, we saw an Israeli
:13:49. > :13:51.soldier on video captured the moment when he approached a man
:13:52. > :13:54.who was prone, on the ground, badly wounded after he tried
:13:55. > :13:57.to attack an Israeli soldier, It appeared he was just lying
:13:58. > :14:01.there, gravely wounded. He was shot in the head
:14:02. > :14:03.by a soldier. and he now faces a trial for
:14:04. > :14:08.manslaughter, what is shocking is that many Israelis polled
:14:09. > :14:11.by the media supported his action and felt he should
:14:12. > :14:17.not be prosecuted. First of all, you have to remember
:14:18. > :14:19.that this soldier is now
:14:20. > :14:21.on trial, as you said. I am talking about the collective
:14:22. > :14:26.psyche of a nation here. Because people are
:14:27. > :14:28.watching TV, they see pictures and they try to analyse
:14:29. > :14:30.according to the picture. I myself decided I'm
:14:31. > :14:32.not getting into this issue up until the trial is getting
:14:33. > :14:35.to be ended. Because I have learned
:14:36. > :14:38.in my life that watching part of a movie, few single pictures
:14:39. > :14:41.amongst many others does not give you a real angle to
:14:42. > :14:44.understand what is going on. The fact that this soldier
:14:45. > :14:47.is being brought to justice, he's on a trial, a soldier, it's not
:14:48. > :14:51.something that you can see in many other countries, including
:14:52. > :14:52.democratic countries. I think it is not the first
:14:53. > :14:55.case and not the only case we have in Israel that soldiers
:14:56. > :14:59.or security people are being brought to justice when they're, when the
:15:00. > :15:02.Army, the leadership, the commanders are, they think that his behaviour
:15:03. > :15:16.has to be tested under the most Throughout this interview you have
:15:17. > :15:20.talked about terrorism and the fight, Israel's fight which which it
:15:21. > :15:23.has to win against terror. In the end, these
:15:24. > :15:25.terrorists, as you call They are the ones that
:15:26. > :15:29.ultimately, as Rabin put it, you will have to
:15:30. > :15:32.talk to make a peace. You do not make peace
:15:33. > :15:41.with You make peace with your enemies
:15:42. > :15:44.and again quoting other heads of the Security Services,
:15:45. > :15:47.they say it is time to talk to Hamas, to drop this fiction
:15:48. > :15:50.that we cannot I have been to this movie
:15:51. > :16:03.when I was head of the division when just started
:16:04. > :16:05.the post Oslo peace treaty. We've had meeting with our
:16:06. > :16:08.enemies, with terrorists. We are sitting around one table,
:16:09. > :16:11.I remember one of my systems counted Those people who are
:16:12. > :16:14.sitting with us. And I remember a very important
:16:15. > :16:16.meeting, Prime Minister Rabin wants
:16:17. > :16:18.us and Yasser Arafat commanders of the Palestinian
:16:19. > :16:30.security apparatuses. Three from the Gaza Strip
:16:31. > :16:37.and three from the West Bank and he told them a story of a vessel
:16:38. > :16:41.which brought weapons to the rebels who were rebels before
:16:42. > :16:44.the independence war, from France to It was, it arrived after the idea
:16:45. > :16:59.of the Israeli defence force, the Army, was established
:17:00. > :17:02.after we became a state. The Prime Minister of Israel told
:17:03. > :17:04.them and that's what Rabin is telling them,
:17:05. > :17:08.he told them there's no way you are going
:17:09. > :17:16.Either you send it back to France or you hand it over to the Israeli
:17:17. > :17:26.Would you talk to Hamas or Islamic Jihad,
:17:27. > :17:29.I would even talk to Ahmadinejad, including
:17:30. > :17:33.I am always for talk, because only then do things get
:17:34. > :17:36.Let's take a real scenario which may happen over the
:17:37. > :17:38.coming years, the coming months, I don't know.
:17:39. > :17:43.He will not run for the presidency in the Palestinian authority.
:17:44. > :17:46.Hamas is getting prepared to take over in free elections.
:17:47. > :17:49.Now try and imagine, which you don't need
:17:50. > :17:52.a very strong imagination, to see that Hamas is becoming the
:17:53. > :17:54.President of the Palestinian Authority.
:17:55. > :17:56.In that case, he's the elected President.
:17:57. > :17:58.Now, the question is whether he's going to accept the
:17:59. > :18:10.You will not know what he's going to accept or what his
:18:11. > :18:12.strategy might be if you don't talk to him.
:18:13. > :18:14.No, but he's not the
:18:15. > :18:17.Let's not kid ourselves for one second
:18:18. > :18:20.that Israel has not put out contacts over many years to Hamas.
:18:21. > :18:29.The bottom line is, if you are to be serious about peace, you
:18:30. > :18:31.will ultimately have to talk to people.
:18:32. > :18:34.Israel has to insist to talk with one PA that has one law for
:18:35. > :18:38.The only man that I know, the official man, the official
:18:39. > :18:41.person, although it was 12 years ago, their first and first election
:18:42. > :18:55.He's the man that we are obliged to talk to.
:18:56. > :18:58.If tomorrow there would be somebody else whether from Fatah, from Hamas
:18:59. > :19:00.or any other movement, he will be the President,
:19:01. > :19:03.the leader of Israel will have to whether he accepts or
:19:04. > :19:06.If he doesn't accept it is a new game.
:19:07. > :19:09.You know, when in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood came into
:19:10. > :19:11.power in 2011, they didn't touch Israeli Egyptian peace treaty.
:19:12. > :19:15.I'm not sure that Hamas was part of the Muslim
:19:16. > :19:18.Brotherhood are going to be behaving in the same way.
:19:19. > :19:23.focus on the negatives of Hamas rather than talk about internal
:19:24. > :19:26.Let me ask you briefly about Israel and its potential for massive
:19:27. > :19:29.civil strife, some say possibly tearing itself apart over the issue
:19:30. > :19:31.of settlements, because again if there is to
:19:32. > :19:33.be in the longer run a
:19:34. > :19:44.two-state solution and some say it is now impossible.
:19:45. > :19:47.But if there is to be such a thing, hundreds of
:19:48. > :19:49.thousands of Jewish settlers on occupied land
:19:50. > :19:55.You know, I have been twice in this issue.
:19:56. > :19:58.In Sinai was the Egyptians and in Gaza the engagement in 2005.
:19:59. > :20:01.Now, it's well understood that Israel in Jerusalem area will never
:20:02. > :20:05.be back to the line of '67 because today we have more Israelis,
:20:06. > :20:07.Jewish people who live outside the '67 line
:20:08. > :20:25.than inside the '67 line inside Jerusalem.
:20:26. > :20:29.Jerusalem has so many neighbourhoods in Jerusalem.
:20:30. > :20:32.Jerusalem will be totally different compared to the 67 line.
:20:33. > :20:34.Does the Israeli state have the will and the
:20:35. > :20:37.strength to take hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers out of
:20:38. > :20:51.I think that when the time comes and Israel will sign
:20:52. > :20:53.a peace treaty with our Palestinian neighbour,
:20:54. > :20:54.I can assure you that the
:20:55. > :21:24.society in Israel is much stronger than we will think it is.
:21:25. > :21:26.I met once a professor who was a very good
:21:27. > :21:28.friend, he was passed away a few months ago,
:21:29. > :21:32.that he met, he was invited by President Obama
:21:33. > :21:38.He's a holocaust survivor as well and a Nobel Prize
:21:39. > :21:40.He was asked by President Obama a very tough question.
:21:41. > :21:43.What's the meaning of the state of Israel
:21:44. > :21:47.2,000 years Jewish people were in exile
:21:48. > :21:49.and the state of Israel was
:21:50. > :21:51.not established in '48 there could be another
:21:52. > :21:56.exile, but once the state of Israel was established in 1948, if God
:21:57. > :22:00.forbidden this country is going to be destroyed it might be the
:22:01. > :22:05.I am telling you we do know it, we understand it and that's why I am
:22:06. > :22:07.telling you the authorised regime in Israel.
:22:08. > :22:08.The Government wants to
:22:09. > :22:11.decide to sign a peace treaty it will be signed.
:22:12. > :22:13.Whatever is needed and whatever is derived from this
:22:14. > :22:20.Will there be a two-state solution in your lifetime?
:22:21. > :22:23.Second one, look around the region, look at
:22:24. > :22:25.the meltdown in Syria, look at the forces
:22:26. > :22:27.of Islamist extremism beyond
:22:28. > :22:28.Israel's borders, does Israel see this
:22:29. > :22:30.as threat or in some ways as
:22:31. > :22:47.An opportunity to reach out to some of the "conservative
:22:48. > :22:50.gulf states" including Saudi Arabia and to line those states up
:22:51. > :23:02.There are some opportunities lies in the
:23:03. > :23:06.But we have to be very, very aware of one
:23:07. > :23:09.thing, we in our terminology in Hebrew, in English, we say the enemy
:23:10. > :23:15.In Arabic they say me and my brother against our cousin
:23:16. > :23:18.and me and my cousin against the strangers.
:23:19. > :23:25.So when Netanyahu goes to the UN and says, look Israel now has
:23:26. > :23:27.better relationships with, not just the world, but also
:23:28. > :23:29.many of the Arab countries, he's whistling in the
:23:30. > :23:33.But in the Middle East, unlike many other parts
:23:34. > :23:35.of the world, in Europe, in some other parts,
:23:36. > :23:36.you normally get the
:23:37. > :23:38.treatment of respect him and suspect him.
:23:39. > :23:42.In the Middle East, you should say suspect him and respect him.
:23:43. > :23:47.Avi Dichter, thank you very much for being on
:23:48. > :24:24.There's gonna be a lot of cloud across the UK over