:00:00. > :00:08.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:10.Welcome to HARDtalk, I Stephen Sackur.
:00:11. > :00:16.It is a year since Russia's military intervention in Syria began
:00:17. > :00:18.and on this anniversary, Russia's warplanes are aiding
:00:19. > :00:21.and abetting President Assad's forces in a ferocious sort
:00:22. > :00:28.Hundreds of civilians, many of them children,
:00:29. > :00:33.Forget talk of cooperation over a ceasefire, relations
:00:34. > :00:45.between Russia and the West on a host of France are now toxic.
:00:46. > :00:47.Forget talk of cooperation over a ceasefire, relations
:00:48. > :00:51.between Russia and the West on a host of fronts are now toxic.
:00:52. > :00:53.My guest is President Putin's chief spokesman Dmitry Peskov.
:00:54. > :00:54.What does Moscow gain from heightened tension?
:00:55. > :01:18.Dmitry Peskov in Moscow, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:19. > :01:24.I want to devote much of our conversation to Syria,
:01:25. > :01:28.but I think I have to begin with the report that's just come out
:01:29. > :01:31.from international prosecutors concerning flight MH17,
:01:32. > :01:35.the Malaysian Airlines about were shot down
:01:36. > :01:54.They said the evidence points to a missile that was made
:01:55. > :01:56.in Russia, that was brought into eastern Ukraine from Russia
:01:57. > :01:58.and the missile launcher which then returned to Russia.
:01:59. > :02:06.Well, first of all we have to admit that this is a preliminary result.
:02:07. > :02:08.We understand from the statements that were made today
:02:09. > :02:11.that the investigation will continue till 2018, so we still have to wait
:02:12. > :02:14.There are still lots of unclear things.
:02:15. > :02:16.There are still lots of contradictions and we all
:02:17. > :02:21.have to find answers to the contradictions.
:02:22. > :02:24.From the very beginning, actually it's important to say
:02:25. > :02:28.that we do support the idea of overwhelming and exhaustive
:02:29. > :02:32.investigation of that disaster and from the very beginning Russia
:02:33. > :02:34.expressed its will to be a full-time participant
:02:35. > :02:47.We do regret that unfortunately we were refused to take part
:02:48. > :02:49.in that investigation, although indirectly where still
:02:50. > :02:52.a part of that investigative process because we are constantly providing
:02:53. > :02:53.information upon request by the investigative
:02:54. > :03:07.You haven't actually answered my question though, Mr Peskov.
:03:08. > :03:09.I just want to know whether you accept the findings
:03:10. > :03:13.that we have just seen which said that the missile which brought down
:03:14. > :03:15.the plane came from a missile launcher which was from Russia
:03:16. > :03:26.There is nothing to accept or to deny.
:03:27. > :03:28.First of all, I repeat, these are preliminary statements
:03:29. > :03:41.We still have to continue investigating.
:03:42. > :03:45.With respect, the prosecuting team has gathered
:03:46. > :03:51.This happened more than two years ago.
:03:52. > :03:54.It has been an exhaustive investigation.
:03:55. > :03:56.They went to Moscow, they asked for help from you.
:03:57. > :03:58.You're different agencies, they say, did not fully cooperate,
:03:59. > :04:00.but they have come up with these conclusions.
:04:01. > :04:03.You can call them preliminary if you like, but are you denying
:04:04. > :04:28.Well, first of all, we cannot accept as a final truth what they say and I
:04:29. > :04:33.bet you haven't seen any proof of that statement. We have to be very
:04:34. > :04:38.precise. It is a very serious tragedy and we cannot operate on
:04:39. > :04:48.bold statements without any proof or any details. Unfortunately we are
:04:49. > :04:54.still missing lots of the details to be able to find ourselves in the
:04:55. > :05:01.right to say that this was that way and that weapon came from that part,
:05:02. > :05:06.from that direction this direction. In the past you have categorically
:05:07. > :05:12.ruled out that it was a Russian missile that brought the plane down,
:05:13. > :05:16.but you're not ruling it out today? If you remember, we have been ruling
:05:17. > :05:24.out and I have been ruling out the fact that any Russian weapons were
:05:25. > :05:28.shipped to Ukraine. Any Russian army members, any Russian troops were
:05:29. > :05:32.inside Ukraine and we are still ruling out that possibility. You
:05:33. > :05:38.know very well but the downing of MH17 was one of the big factors in
:05:39. > :05:42.the Europeans and Americans toughening up sanctions. Given the
:05:43. > :05:46.way this prosecutors report has been received in the Netherlands, Europe
:05:47. > :05:49.and the US as well, you have to accept that the sanctions regime is
:05:50. > :05:58.not going to be relaxed any time soon. This is a perfect example of a
:05:59. > :06:00.logic approach. You said that sanctions were introduced and
:06:01. > :06:11.strengthened because of the downing of the plane, but it was done before
:06:12. > :06:14.any investigative results. So they don't need any results of any
:06:15. > :06:22.investigation to come to a conclusion. This is a perfect
:06:23. > :06:27.example of a logic approach. You call it a logic... Identity any
:06:28. > :06:36.connection. I repeat, this report is still yet to come. We have to be
:06:37. > :06:43.patient and we have to be ready to put on the table or the arrears, or
:06:44. > :06:52.data and get rid of the fourth data and to rely upon the only true
:06:53. > :06:59.choice that will be on the table in order to be able to come to the
:07:00. > :07:01.final conclusion. You call the West's conclusion in logic, but
:07:02. > :07:09.whatever you call it, tensions between Moscow and the West are
:07:10. > :07:16.extraordinarily high right now, not so much thinking of MH17, but the
:07:17. > :07:19.situation in Syria. Let's talk about Syria. In the last week your Evalds
:07:20. > :07:25.have been involved with the Syrians in the most ferocious bombardment of
:07:26. > :07:29.Aleppo we have seen in more than five years of the Symbian conflict.
:07:30. > :07:39.Hundreds of people have been killed, a very large number of them
:07:40. > :07:52.children. -- Symbian conflict. Why are you doing this? What is the
:07:53. > :07:56.source of this? The Red Cross, the red Crescent, I don't know how many
:07:57. > :08:01.different sources you need. The BBC has just made a documentary, filmed
:08:02. > :08:06.inside Aleppo over the last ten days. We have seen for ourselves the
:08:07. > :08:10.impact of the bunker busting bombs. There is no doubt this is happening
:08:11. > :08:16.and that is no doubt from the hospitals that have been hit of the
:08:17. > :08:21.number of casualties. There are different sources and documentaries
:08:22. > :08:28.you can rely upon and the war is going on and understandably the
:08:29. > :08:34.cessation of the hostile activities is not active right now and we are
:08:35. > :08:39.too far away from the situation of a ceasefire in Aleppo. Unfortunately
:08:40. > :08:44.we see that the agreement between Moscow and Washington that was made,
:08:45. > :08:53.a set of agreements, was not introduced into reality and now the
:08:54. > :08:58.situation is getting worse. The question is very simple. Why are you
:08:59. > :09:03.deploying, for example, these bunker busting bombs which reach down into
:09:04. > :09:09.basements, kill civilians where they are sheltering and are also, and we
:09:10. > :09:15.know this from multiple sources, hitting hospitals, including those
:09:16. > :09:17.codenamed M ten and M2 where you are now, it seems, targeting medical
:09:18. > :09:24.facilities themselves in a clear violation of the Geneva conventions.
:09:25. > :09:30.No, this is out of the question. These are force information and
:09:31. > :09:36.there is no possibility that Russian air force can be involved in this
:09:37. > :09:44.kind of activities. So who is doing it then, Mr Peskov? Excuse me washed
:09:45. > :09:49.and mark who is doing it? Well, we still have questions in Syria. Who
:09:50. > :09:55.destroyed the convoy with humanitarian aid? We don't know.
:09:56. > :10:00.Well be United Nations special envoy and many others believe your forces
:10:01. > :10:04.did that and if it wasn't your forces, it was the Syrian air force
:10:05. > :10:09.operating with your drones and your intelligence. So you exclude the
:10:10. > :10:16.possibility it was a drone of the US-led coalition? I quote to you
:10:17. > :10:19.that the United Nations special envoy, sources from inside and
:10:20. > :10:25.outside the western powers who say there is clear evidence that to SU
:10:26. > :10:31.24 planes were in the area at the time and who are sure that it was
:10:32. > :10:37.either Russian or Syrian air force. Why can't you rely upon information
:10:38. > :10:46.of Russian military that saw on the radar traces of a fighter drone at
:10:47. > :10:50.the same time being above the area? What about your story that actually,
:10:51. > :10:57.it was a ground attack. You claimed a few days ago that the damage to
:10:58. > :11:00.the 18th, I think, trucks out of 31 in the convoy that were destroyed,
:11:01. > :11:06.you suggested it was a ground attack, not to air attack. Using to
:11:07. > :11:11.be changing your story. No, we are not, we're not changing the story.
:11:12. > :11:18.After the ceasefire, Syrian troops started to withdraw and they were
:11:19. > :11:24.supposed to withdraw to a position equal distance from the Castello
:11:25. > :11:29.Road in certain areas and they started withdrawing process and
:11:30. > :11:34.right in the middle of the withdrawal they were attacked. First
:11:35. > :11:38.they were attacked by US led coalition that was presumed as a
:11:39. > :11:48.mistake, but right after that attack the offensive by Nasrallah had
:11:49. > :11:56.started. They found themselves in the middle of the offensive whilst
:11:57. > :12:00.fulfilling the agreement between Moscow and Washington. It is a very
:12:01. > :12:05.controversial situation. I get the sense we are not going to agree on
:12:06. > :12:10.what the evidence says regarding the attack on the convoy. The bigger
:12:11. > :12:14.question is the one I have asked you which you have not answered. Let me
:12:15. > :12:21.put it to you another way. Let me give you a quote from the adviser to
:12:22. > :12:25.the Syrian medical Society. He said in Aleppo right now we are seeing
:12:26. > :12:33.the extermination of a major city by starvation and by the killing of its
:12:34. > :12:39.85,000 children, using all modern weaponry is. Now the Russian air
:12:40. > :12:44.force is involved alongside the Syrian forces in the current assault
:12:45. > :12:49.on Aleppo. Does that kind of testimony and does the picture that
:12:50. > :12:56.comes out of Aleppo today give you any pause, make you rethink what you
:12:57. > :13:00.and the Russian military are doing today? I strictly rule out the
:13:01. > :13:03.possibility of Russian military forces, air strike forces being
:13:04. > :13:11.involved in an offensive against civilians. This is out of
:13:12. > :13:14.possibility. The Russian air force are still performing the task in
:13:15. > :13:26.terms of fighting terrorist organisations. In that particular
:13:27. > :13:30.region it is. -- Nusra. The situation in the western part of
:13:31. > :13:38.Aleppo is different. You would presume that seven checkpoints were
:13:39. > :13:42.established in eastern Aleppo, in western Aleppo and one checkpoint
:13:43. > :13:47.has been established between eastern Aleppo and Western Aleppo in order
:13:48. > :13:52.to assist civilians to escape from the region being controlled by the
:13:53. > :13:57.terrorists. Just the final repeated question about the bunker busting
:13:58. > :14:02.bombs. They are made in Russia. The special envoy for the UI and said we
:14:03. > :14:09.hear of the use of these bunker busting bombs. -- UN. We see the
:14:10. > :14:12.pictures of the large craters. If this is confirmed, the systematic
:14:13. > :14:17.indiscriminate use of such weapons in areas where civilians are
:14:18. > :14:28.present, this may amount to war crimes. First of all, if you use
:14:29. > :14:33.words like we here about the facts and we use the picture, you cannot
:14:34. > :14:37.rely upon those words or pictures. If you are speaking about such
:14:38. > :14:42.serious and dangerous substances such as as a war against terror, you
:14:43. > :14:50.cannot rely on pictures. You can rely only on specified and
:14:51. > :14:54.professional sources of information. Militaries, investigative bodies, so
:14:55. > :15:01.one and so forth. I will never agree with this allegation. It is clear
:15:02. > :15:09.that Russia stands accused of war crimes. We cannot agree with this
:15:10. > :15:15.accusation. Russian military forces are acting in a state it accordance
:15:16. > :15:21.with international law and all the weapons that are being used, they in
:15:22. > :15:27.no way contradict with the provisions of international
:15:28. > :15:31.agreements. What do you think when you hear the British ambassador to
:15:32. > :15:35.the UN said that Russia is partnering with the Syrian regime to
:15:36. > :15:42.carry out war crimes when his colleague the US ambassador to the
:15:43. > :15:45.UN says what Russia is sponsoring an doing is not Counter Terrorism
:15:46. > :15:53.Command it is barbarism. Two youths dismissed that as propaganda? We
:15:54. > :15:56.treated as diplomatic or misbehaviour. There is a very simple
:15:57. > :16:02.way of answering, saying you are doing friendship with the Al
:16:03. > :16:09.Nasrallah guys are newer trying to hide them. It's not the proper way
:16:10. > :16:12.to things. The best way is to behave properly and cooperate military
:16:13. > :16:18.wives. This is the only way to do business there and the only way to
:16:19. > :16:24.save lives of hundreds and thousands of people. One more thought on
:16:25. > :16:30.Aleppo and we will move onto bigger picture. The Syrian government has
:16:31. > :16:33.made it plain it is preparing a major ground offensive to go with
:16:34. > :16:37.this aerial bombardment in Aleppo. We know there are around a quarter
:16:38. > :16:44.of a million civilians still living in the east of the city. Is Russia
:16:45. > :16:50.going to be supporting a major ground operation which one can only
:16:51. > :16:54.think will leave to humanitarian catastrophe? I cannot tell you what
:16:55. > :16:58.operations Russia will support because this is the responsibility
:16:59. > :17:05.of our military, but at the same time I can assure you that Russia
:17:06. > :17:12.will continue to do whatever is necessary to finalise the battle
:17:13. > :17:17.with terror and terrorist organisations accepted by the United
:17:18. > :17:25.Nations in Syria. Are you saying that everybody that leaves in East
:17:26. > :17:30.Aleppo is in some way a terrorist or complicit in terrorism. There are a
:17:31. > :17:44.quarter of a million civilians there, Mr Peskov. Unfortunately we
:17:45. > :17:49.still failed to arrange this decision and I would like to remind
:17:50. > :17:52.you it was the obligation of the United States. Unfortunately they
:17:53. > :18:00.failed to do that and that is why we are facing this tragic development
:18:01. > :18:06.around Aleppo, and I would like to remind you that all the negotiations
:18:07. > :18:11.between Lavrov and John Terry, the negotiations between the Russian
:18:12. > :18:21.military and the American military, they are not about stopping the
:18:22. > :18:27.fight against terror. -- Kerry. Strikes against terrorists will
:18:28. > :18:32.continue and our joint task is to exclude civilians from that battle.
:18:33. > :18:41.What you I am sure are aware of is that your actions over the last ten
:18:42. > :18:46.days or so have led John Kerry to say do you seriously think we are
:18:47. > :18:57.going to engage, his phrase, in more happy talk in Geneva, given what you
:18:58. > :19:03.and Asad's forces are doing? There is no further scope for diplomacy,
:19:04. > :19:08.or do you see something I don't? I would rather agree with you. Time
:19:09. > :19:19.and possibilities are shrinking. In ability of Americans to cope with a
:19:20. > :19:24.mixture of terrorists and opposition unfortunately making the whole
:19:25. > :19:27.process harder and harder. We are extremely sorry about that because
:19:28. > :19:34.we are determined to continue this process, but of course we cannot do
:19:35. > :19:38.it alone. It has to be said that your strategy in Syria doesn't seem
:19:39. > :19:42.to be working because back in the spring you told all of us and the
:19:43. > :19:45.international media that Russia was beginning its pull-out from Syria
:19:46. > :19:48.and yet here we are with this ferocious assault on Aleppo
:19:49. > :19:52.involving your forces happening right now. What has gone wrong with
:19:53. > :19:58.your idea that you could get into Syria, you could buttress Asad's
:19:59. > :20:06.position and you could pull out quickly. That simply has not
:20:07. > :20:08.happened. Everything is going and developing, not without
:20:09. > :20:16.difficulties, but is going on properly. This is what you want to
:20:17. > :20:20.be happening, is it? You know what is important about Russia's
:20:21. > :20:27.operation in Syria, the most important thing, that Daesh and
:20:28. > :20:37.Nusra are not sitting in Damascus. This is only because of the support
:20:38. > :20:41.of Russian military planes. The support of legitimate Syrian army.
:20:42. > :20:47.Many people inside Russia and as well as outside will say that if you
:20:48. > :20:50.make the intervention in Russia, you will find a way of cooperating with
:20:51. > :20:55.the Western powers that might allow you to win a relaxation of the
:20:56. > :21:01.sections which I've been imposed of your actions in Ukraine, but that
:21:02. > :21:06.strategy has failed. I think that if you are someone here we must go what
:21:07. > :21:12.would you prefer, to ease sanctions or to have another failed state in
:21:13. > :21:17.Syria, like we have in Libya, I would say no one is caring about
:21:18. > :21:22.sanctions here, but everyone will prefer to liberate Syria and said
:21:23. > :21:26.Syrians from terrorists. At the end the terrorists are a huge threat for
:21:27. > :21:32.us. It's interesting that you think no one is caring about sanctions in
:21:33. > :21:36.Russia with your in Connolly set to shrink, your poverty rate rising to
:21:37. > :21:45.15%, with the Russian people feeling the impact of deceased -- of an
:21:46. > :21:48.economic squeeze. The cost of this is 30 billion rubles a year. This is
:21:49. > :21:56.something you can't afford for the long-term. Well, we still can afford
:21:57. > :21:59.it. We still can afford it and of course we are facing economic
:22:00. > :22:04.difficulties, although it is a good possibility for us to think about a
:22:05. > :22:08.new style economy that we have been dreaming of. But trust me, we are
:22:09. > :22:19.prosperous enough, we are still prosperous enough to afford in type
:22:20. > :22:27.terror operations globally. Those are the words of a superpower, but
:22:28. > :22:34.you are far from being a superpower. The situation is not that bad. You
:22:35. > :22:39.learn lessons like other countries do from previous interventions. You
:22:40. > :22:42.have learnt lessons, not good ones, from Afghanistan, they use it on the
:22:43. > :22:46.one-year anniversary of your intervention in Syria. You look at
:22:47. > :22:50.the map of Syria today and the battle lines aren't that different
:22:51. > :22:56.from a year ago. The truth is you have been sucked into a conflict
:22:57. > :23:02.that you now have no idea how you will get out of. I repeat, try to
:23:03. > :23:09.look from a different angle. We have saved Syria from being occupied from
:23:10. > :23:17.100% by the terrorists. Would you prefer Syria being a failed state
:23:18. > :23:22.and would you prefer hundreds of thousands of poor civilians mixed
:23:23. > :23:27.with terrorists running in directions of Europe without any
:23:28. > :23:31.control? So you first told us your forces were pulling back in March.
:23:32. > :23:36.It is now late September, we are ending towards the end of 2016. When
:23:37. > :23:44.will Russian forces pull back from Syria? When it is decided by the
:23:45. > :23:49.President, the chief commander. When the operational objectives are
:23:50. > :23:52.fulfilled 100%. I am suggesting to you he has no idea because there is
:23:53. > :24:01.no prospect of that goal being achieved. Well if we still see a
:24:02. > :24:05.deficit of preparation from our partners, especially in Washington,
:24:06. > :24:11.then it will be a very hard job for us. Dmitry Peskov, we have two end
:24:12. > :24:13.there, but thank you very much for joining me from Moscow. It was my
:24:14. > :24:46.pleasure. Thank you. Hello. I think if we look back at
:24:47. > :24:48.the week were about to have we will say it's pretty changeable. No two