:00:00. > :00:10.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:11. > :00:13.Britain's Labour Party has rediscovered its enthusiasm
:00:14. > :00:21.Party leader Jeremy Corbyn has comprehensively quashed a rebellion
:00:22. > :00:24.by his own disaffected MPs, and seems convinced that British
:00:25. > :00:36.voters are ready to embrace radical-left politics.
:00:37. > :00:43.Problem is, the opinion polls tell a different story.
:00:44. > :00:45.But then, the polls are not always accurate.
:00:46. > :00:48.My guest today is Neil Kinnock, former leader of the British Labour
:00:49. > :00:51.He led Labour through a period of internal warfare
:00:52. > :01:13.Will Labour regain power in his lifetime?
:01:14. > :01:27.Thank you. In recent months you have been a player in the battle for the
:01:28. > :01:33.soul of the Labour Party, and your side lost. How much does it hurt? I
:01:34. > :01:41.am slightly depressed by the outcome, although I recognise that
:01:42. > :01:48.it was inevitable. The reason for my depression is the fact that there
:01:49. > :01:52.are huge numbers of new members of the Labour Party, many of them
:01:53. > :02:01.young, who have got the strongest sense of purpose, and decent ideals,
:02:02. > :02:08.that I regret are going to be hugely disappointed themselves when an
:02:09. > :02:15.effective bid for democratic power is not made, and not successful,
:02:16. > :02:21.under the current leadership. As I have said before, unless there is
:02:22. > :02:27.radical and rapid change, Cobleigh won't see another Labour government
:02:28. > :02:32.in my lifetime. And that is dismaying for me, but it could be
:02:33. > :02:36.very disillusioning for them. And the many people watching and
:02:37. > :02:39.listening to this, that will be a hard proposition to understand.
:02:40. > :02:43.Because Jeremy Corbyn, who has now been leading the party for a year,
:02:44. > :02:48.and has just won an overwhelming mandate for a second time to lead
:02:49. > :02:52.the party, has encouraged a huge number of people to join your party.
:02:53. > :02:56.You are now the biggest mass membership political party in all of
:02:57. > :03:00.Europe. Something very positive seems to be happening, and yet here
:03:01. > :03:04.you sit saying I am depressed, and I don't think we can win power again
:03:05. > :03:09.in my lifetime. That doesn't seem to add up. Well, as I said, I am much
:03:10. > :03:13.more depressed about the prospects for the younger generation coming
:03:14. > :03:20.through then I Mfor any prospects for myself. At this young generation
:03:21. > :03:27.are actually highly enthusiastic, very excited, very committed... Yes.
:03:28. > :03:31.And they believe in Jeremy Colburn, so why can't you? I want to see
:03:32. > :03:35.their hopes, their decent desires fulfilled by securing a Labour
:03:36. > :03:42.government, which is the only feasible way in which our party, our
:03:43. > :03:47.country, makes durable, regressive change. And these young people have,
:03:48. > :03:54.for the very best reasons, overwhelming numbers, very positive
:03:55. > :04:00.reasons, hitched their wagon to a star that could go pale. And that is
:04:01. > :04:04.what bothers me most about the current situation. Well, any star
:04:05. > :04:09.can go pale, but you haven't given Jeremy Colburn a chance. He has only
:04:10. > :04:13.led the party for one year. As I have already said, in that year
:04:14. > :04:16.there has been a stunning rise in the mentorship of the party. He has
:04:17. > :04:21.just, at the Liverpool party conference, laid out the platform.
:04:22. > :04:28.He calls a 21st-century socialism. He presented ten points, all of got
:04:29. > :04:32.whoops and hollers of applause from the mass militia, the ranks of
:04:33. > :04:35.people inside the hall. I put it to you again that something is
:04:36. > :04:38.happening inside the Labour Party that you don't seem to get, but
:04:39. > :04:42.hundreds of thousands of members do. Is a lifelong democratic socialist,
:04:43. > :04:47.many of the propositions delight me. I don't just agree with them, I
:04:48. > :04:55.enthusiastically support them. The problem is, as we all know, that
:04:56. > :05:01.elections, and the broad appeal to a doubting public, they are not won in
:05:02. > :05:05.rallies or with whoops or with slogans that you can print on a
:05:06. > :05:10.T-shirt. They are won by the arduous process of establishing policies
:05:11. > :05:15.that the public consider to be relevant to their needs, and their
:05:16. > :05:22.hopes, and on that basis, securing the political power needed to turn
:05:23. > :05:29.these objectives into the law of the land. Are you saying, Neil Kinnock,
:05:30. > :05:34.but after your very long political career, an MP at 28, leader of the
:05:35. > :05:36.Labour Party at 41, after all this experience and commitment to your
:05:37. > :05:42.party, you don't fundamentally believe that the British public will
:05:43. > :05:46.ever embraced true socialism? I don't think the public... That seems
:05:47. > :05:50.to be what you are saying. I would never make the idea that the British
:05:51. > :05:55.public won't embrace socialism. Well, given the chance than! For
:05:56. > :05:59.instance, the way in which over decades the British public in huge
:06:00. > :06:05.majorities have embraced all the basic practical vegetables and the
:06:06. > :06:09.decent consequences, the liberation that has come, from having a
:06:10. > :06:14.national health service. That is definitely a democratic socialist
:06:15. > :06:19.institution which is a massive value, and valued by the British
:06:20. > :06:22.people. Now, when that kind of practical argument and illustration
:06:23. > :06:29.is offered, you find the British people have got no objection at all
:06:30. > :06:36.to collectively provided opportunity and care for individual need. At
:06:37. > :06:42.that is precisely what Jeremy Corbyn is now talking about. He is offering
:06:43. > :06:45.specifics, renationalisation of the railways, perhaps more
:06:46. > :06:47.nationalisation as well. He is talking about fundamental
:06:48. > :06:51.redistribution, taxing the rich and big corporations to allow more money
:06:52. > :06:55.to be ported to services and the welfare and everything else. He is a
:06:56. > :07:00.socialist in a way that Tony Blair was never a socialist, Gordon Brown
:07:01. > :07:05.was a socialist. You say you are a socialist. What is not to like?
:07:06. > :07:09.Well, the question is, can Jeremy Corbyn and what he stands for, his
:07:10. > :07:17.record, his lifetime objectives, stand the test to which he will be
:07:18. > :07:21.subjected, obviously, necessarily, in a democracy? And, as a
:07:22. > :07:25.consequence of that, attract the breadth of support... They keep on
:07:26. > :07:29.coming back to this word, the wide support, of people from all
:07:30. > :07:35.backgrounds, and indeed all politics, to secure electoral
:07:36. > :07:38.victory? Now, I can make, I will make the argument for Democratic
:07:39. > :07:44.Socialism, because I find it profoundly inspiring, and practical
:07:45. > :07:49.in meeting the needs of the British people. I really don't... Or I
:07:50. > :07:54.remain to be convinced, let me be as charitable as I possibly can, remain
:07:55. > :08:00.to be convinced, that Jeremy Corbyn and the people associated with him,
:08:01. > :08:07.can make that kind of appeal, with the force in the brat to make it
:08:08. > :08:13.convincing to the degree that people will shift their votes in order to
:08:14. > :08:16.vote Labour, and keep on voting Labour in order to secure electoral
:08:17. > :08:20.power. You are from south Wales. You know it very well, it is one of the
:08:21. > :08:27.tribal heartlands of the Labour Party. Yes. So is the north-east of
:08:28. > :08:30.England, the north-west of England. These are places in the recent past
:08:31. > :08:34.where Labour has seen its performance dip dramatically. And I
:08:35. > :08:37.wonder why you think the Labour Party of the day is failing to
:08:38. > :08:45.connect with its traditional working class core support? In one way you
:08:46. > :08:49.have offered a clue to the answer. Yourself, by using the term, I am
:08:50. > :08:53.not criticising you for doing it, tribal heartlands. It the use of
:08:54. > :08:59.terms like that, and the thinking that goes behind it, that led to...
:09:00. > :09:03.It is a term the Labour Party use. Absolutely, and I have always
:09:04. > :09:07.deplored it, always. I am on record over 30 years ago and many times
:09:08. > :09:16.since saying don't speak of these as our natural vote. Our core vote.
:09:17. > :09:19.Because the reality is, out of that attitude grows a complacency in
:09:20. > :09:23.which eventually people come to think that they are taken for
:09:24. > :09:27.granted. I mean, I mix and mingle lot, including in South Wales, I was
:09:28. > :09:31.there yesterday. And what has been communicated to me for years is the
:09:32. > :09:37.idea, we are being taken for granted. Of course we are Labour, we
:09:38. > :09:42.will always vote Labour, but we are being taken for granted. Now, then,
:09:43. > :09:46.in those circumstances, you add to that the industrialisation on a
:09:47. > :09:53.gigantic scale, and the impoverishment of communities that
:09:54. > :09:56.are just about getting by, and in those circumstances, a Labour Party
:09:57. > :10:00.that appears to take the vote for granted is always going to put some
:10:01. > :10:04.of those votes in jeopardy. And despite the individual efforts of
:10:05. > :10:09.MPs and party members and councillors and trade unionists to
:10:10. > :10:17.retain the Association and the support of people, they are less
:10:18. > :10:23.inclined to follow their views with their vote than they have been for
:10:24. > :10:26.decades, because they have thought they were being taken for granted.
:10:27. > :10:31.They are wrong, actually. I can demonstrate that they are wrong, but
:10:32. > :10:38.I cannot overcome the feeling that gradually has grown and must be
:10:39. > :10:42.addressed. Here are the words of John Cruddas, senior figure in the
:10:43. > :10:45.party, who wrote a report in why Labour lost the election. Labour is
:10:46. > :10:48.losing the connection with large parts of the voting population who
:10:49. > :10:50.are either pragmatists in their voting habits or social
:10:51. > :10:57.conservatives who value family, work, Venice, and in a patriotic
:10:58. > :11:03.sense, their country. Now, this is a sort of blue Labour argument that,
:11:04. > :11:07.the idea that the Labour Party has lost touch with this important part
:11:08. > :11:11.of working Britain. And one of the key issues it has lost touch on his
:11:12. > :11:16.Europe, and you represent those people in Labour who have lost
:11:17. > :11:21.touch. No, not lost touch at all. In incidentally, I don't like the term
:11:22. > :11:26.Lou Labour, by the way. Well, let's not get stuck on terms. The point is
:11:27. > :11:31.you were one of the most Europhile people inside Labour, and Labour
:11:32. > :11:34.voters in their droves during the 23 June referendum ignored your advice
:11:35. > :11:42.and voted to get out of Europe. Because of those very feeling that I
:11:43. > :11:50.began to enumerate, about feeling, to use the term, left behind. Not
:11:51. > :11:54.effectively represented. This associated from the main thrust of
:11:55. > :11:58.the Labour Party. And, as I say, that is what has got to be
:11:59. > :12:02.addressed. Not only Europe. It wasn't losing touch on that. What
:12:03. > :12:09.you found in the Labour campaign... It certainly was losing touch. 4% of
:12:10. > :12:13.Labour MPs supported Brexit, 52% of the electorate voted for it. And
:12:14. > :12:17.actually, there are 150 Labour MPs who sit in constituencies where the
:12:18. > :12:22.majority of voters voted for Brexit, so Labour did lose touch with the
:12:23. > :12:26.argument. No, I don't think it did, because Labour would have been doing
:12:27. > :12:32.itself in the community is that it represented a grave disservice by
:12:33. > :12:41.simply lining up with the leave vote, which in our view, and I think
:12:42. > :12:45.that time sadly will demonstrate the validity of that view, those very
:12:46. > :12:50.communities will be amongst those who will lose most as a consequence
:12:51. > :12:55.of the uncertainty and the disruption and the disadvantage that
:12:56. > :13:00.will calm from leaving the world's biggest single market, and the
:13:01. > :13:04.advantages of security at all levels that we get from being in the
:13:05. > :13:07.European Union. As a former commissioner, I understand your
:13:08. > :13:11.deeps and Aviva European project. It is not to do that, it is not to do
:13:12. > :13:15.with that. If we are talking about how and why Labour is out of touch
:13:16. > :13:19.with its vote, here is the issue, more than any other. I won't let
:13:20. > :13:24.that phrase passed. Many years before I became a commissioner, ICQ
:13:25. > :13:27.a gigantic change in the policy of the Labour Party from one that was
:13:28. > :13:35.very antagonistic towards membership of the European community, led the
:13:36. > :13:38.European Union, and one that was positively engaged and in favour. So
:13:39. > :13:45.that predates me being the commissioner. I think it is very...
:13:46. > :13:49.Happy to accept that, but let us get to the point. Labour now has a
:13:50. > :13:53.choice to make, just as the Tories do, but we talk to the Tories so
:13:54. > :13:57.let's not worry about than. We are talking to you now. Labour has a
:13:58. > :14:00.choice to make. What is it propose to do with Brexit? What kind of
:14:01. > :14:03.Brexit that the Labour Party envisage? Now, people like Ed
:14:04. > :14:05.Miliband have been talking about this, Andy Burnham and others,
:14:06. > :14:10.senior figures in the party, saying it would be huge mistake to bang on
:14:11. > :14:14.about how wrong it was to vote for Brexit and to focus on the 48% who
:14:15. > :14:34.did vote for Brexit. We may need now to have a positive vision of what
:14:35. > :14:37.can be outside the European Union. You agree with that? Right, that's
:14:38. > :14:40.fine. I totally agree with that. So no rerunning of a referendum, which
:14:41. > :14:44.Bella Smith was proposing. Had never been in favour of that. A decision
:14:45. > :14:47.has been made. Two objectives that the Labour Party, and indeed I hope
:14:48. > :14:51.eventually the government, will pursue. The first is to put together
:14:52. > :14:53.an effective set of purposes that should be pursued in the Brexit
:14:54. > :14:57.negotiations. And prime among those is securing a stable and continuing
:14:58. > :14:58.engagement with the single market, with all the advantages that it
:14:59. > :15:06.implies. That told me nothing. There will
:15:07. > :15:11.obviously be an engagement in the single market. Will we have the sort
:15:12. > :15:16.of access that comes with membership even if we are not members and that
:15:17. > :15:21.would require us to accept, for example, freedom of movement. Let's
:15:22. > :15:25.get to the core issue of immigration. Should labour now set
:15:26. > :15:30.targets and limits on immigration. Should it talk the language of many
:15:31. > :15:36.of the core voters, whether they live in Wales or Sunderland or
:15:37. > :15:40.wherever, regard, they regard immigration as a fundamental problem
:15:41. > :15:44.and they want it ended or at least curbed. In the process of those
:15:45. > :15:50.decks of negotiations is to try to establish the maximum engagement in
:15:51. > :15:55.the single market on the most favourable terms. And as part of
:15:56. > :16:00.that recognise the concerns that were registered on the 23rd of June,
:16:01. > :16:05.there is no way of evading VAT and I would not want to. To try and get an
:16:06. > :16:09.arrangement which will mean that there is a form of controlled
:16:10. > :16:15.migration that would serve the needs of the British people, the British
:16:16. > :16:23.economy, the vital services like the NHS and find an equilibria which
:16:24. > :16:25.means we can gain the biggest was able in economic advantage while not
:16:26. > :16:30.inflicting disadvantage on ourselves. You are dancing so
:16:31. > :16:36.delicately around this. It is just simple. Let's get to and white, yes
:16:37. > :16:44.or no. There are no yes or no answers. But the government does not
:16:45. > :16:49.have the faintest idea of what it is trying to do. Yes and no answers are
:16:50. > :16:54.in short supply. Now it is your chance. Do you believe the time has
:16:55. > :17:00.come to be clear. No freedom of movement? That is like saying Brexit
:17:01. > :17:05.means Brexit. What the hell does that mean? It is straightforward. If
:17:06. > :17:09.you want full access to the single market, Europe says it will need to
:17:10. > :17:15.maintain the principle of freedom of movement. You are also saying we're
:17:16. > :17:19.going to be outside the single market, we will negotiate a trade
:17:20. > :17:22.deal with it but it will clearly be nowhere near the same sort of deal
:17:23. > :17:26.that you would if you were inside. The preferred option for the
:17:27. > :17:30.well-being of the British people and the economy must be to maximise our
:17:31. > :17:37.engagement in the single market. The terms on which that can be secured
:17:38. > :17:42.as something that nobody yet knows. You say to me... Jeremy Corbyn is
:17:43. > :17:48.straightforward. He says he wants no limits on freedom of movement. If he
:17:49. > :17:53.right or wrong? I don't think it is a realistic appraisal of the
:17:54. > :17:59.attitude registered by the 52% and, many others to recognise huge
:18:00. > :18:05.advantages to migration but also recognised the need to manage it in
:18:06. > :18:09.a way that does not stabilise and generate Dow and even resentment in
:18:10. > :18:15.the way that we have seen manifested in recent months. It is not asking
:18:16. > :18:20.for perfection to say here we are at the beginning of the negotiation
:18:21. > :18:23.process, a government should be setting out objectives and I
:18:24. > :18:31.certainly think the Labour Party should be and seeking to ensure that
:18:32. > :18:34.the benefit for our country, despite Brexit, is maximised and then to
:18:35. > :18:41.negotiate the basis on which there can be a accomplished. Nothing could
:18:42. > :18:46.be less dancing. It is an acknowledgement of the great under
:18:47. > :18:53.known, the vague stands of the government. Anyone who does not
:18:54. > :18:57.acknowledge that is being foolish. You said in this interview as you
:18:58. > :19:01.said before, Jeremy Corbyn's triumph in the region since election, you
:19:02. > :19:05.still do not believe with him as leader you can imagine Labour
:19:06. > :19:12.getting back into government in your lifetime. So... I work for him. They
:19:13. > :19:18.have never been any reservation or doubt about that. I just think that
:19:19. > :19:27.as long as Jeremy is a and as long as he carries with him the baggage
:19:28. > :19:33.and some of these dances that he had adopted, he diminishes our chances
:19:34. > :19:36.of securing broad electoral support which is absolutely vital. Is it not
:19:37. > :19:41.therefore incumbent upon you at this point because Jeremy Corbyn is
:19:42. > :19:46.stronger than ever before, incumbent upon you to think of an tentative
:19:47. > :19:50.way to do centre-left politics. If you want to represent the people
:19:51. > :19:54.that you say you want to represent and get back into power for them and
:19:55. > :19:57.you say it is impossible and inconceivable to imagine Jeremy
:19:58. > :20:03.Corbyn leading you to power, you'd better find another way. Dividing or
:20:04. > :20:07.deserting the Labour Party does not even begin to impinge upon my
:20:08. > :20:12.thinking. As you may know from other sources I have made that case very
:20:13. > :20:15.obvious publicly and in the Parliamentary Labour Party with
:20:16. > :20:20.great support. That is not going to happen. It must not happen because
:20:21. > :20:28.there is no possibility of any grouping in the Labour Party leaving
:20:29. > :20:34.the party with its traditions and constitution, its objectives, its
:20:35. > :20:41.identity, its affections, its affiliations in somebody else's
:20:42. > :20:45.ownership. You sound tribal. I am not sounding title at all. The
:20:46. > :20:49.reason I am a member of the Labour Party and joined them when I was 14
:20:50. > :20:53.years and and have been delighted and honoured to be a member of the
:20:54. > :20:56.party ever since, even if I have never been leader, is because I
:20:57. > :21:01.generally do believe that the it is only by collective contribution and
:21:02. > :21:09.asset for individual emancipation, opportunity, care, security that we
:21:10. > :21:13.will ever make real progress. That is what you believe in and you still
:21:14. > :21:17.believe that the Labour Party is the only vehicle you can imagine
:21:18. > :21:21.fighting for that within. Who, in your view, is the leader that
:21:22. > :21:25.ultimately can get you to the destination of power? You clearly do
:21:26. > :21:29.not think it is called in. I can't give you a name for two reasons.
:21:30. > :21:33.One, I do not really know because there is a collection of talented
:21:34. > :21:38.young people who will be there for many years. One of them will emerge.
:21:39. > :21:43.Secondly, even if I did know a name I would not destroy their chances by
:21:44. > :21:50.giving it to you. That is an indictment of the way the party has
:21:51. > :21:57.left Neal kick behind. It is inevitably and true in any party. --
:21:58. > :22:01.Neal Kinnock. Before we end the interview I would like you to
:22:02. > :22:08.reflect on what has happened in your lifetime. You thought struggles
:22:09. > :22:12.against Militant Tendency. They want to come back to the party because
:22:13. > :22:17.they see Jeremy Corbyn as their guy and they believe that the far left
:22:18. > :22:21.politics they fought for in the 80s can now be bought to fruition under
:22:22. > :22:27.Corbyn. You sit there and think, what, all of that fight and I have
:22:28. > :22:31.lost? Derek and the others may enjoy the idea of a better leadership that
:22:32. > :22:36.has embraced some of the ideas that have been put forward. That is up to
:22:37. > :22:40.them. He was on this programme not long ago saying just that. For them,
:22:41. > :22:45.politics is a hobby in any case. That is fine for them. There is a
:22:46. > :22:51.huge difference between joining up in order to be self-indulgent about
:22:52. > :22:58.your own priorities and being part of a movement that is a credible
:22:59. > :23:03.probability of securing enough votes to win the next general election. It
:23:04. > :23:10.is just not there. That has never particularly interested Derek Hatton
:23:11. > :23:14.and people like him. The important thing is to focus entirely... Jeremy
:23:15. > :23:17.Corbyn was good enough to say it yesterday. The purpose of the Labour
:23:18. > :23:24.Party protest, campaign, those things are vital. But it's purpose
:23:25. > :23:28.is to secure political power, Parliamentary power in order to
:23:29. > :23:34.secure improvement in our country. That is the first time he has spelt
:23:35. > :23:38.that out, actually, and I think that it is a little bit of a jewel to be
:23:39. > :23:42.cherished because that is the basis on which the Labour Party in the
:23:43. > :23:47.leadership and the member ship must be judged. How serious are they
:23:48. > :23:51.about securing that breadth of support? Are their convictions did
:23:52. > :23:57.enough to stand the test of compromise? And using the answer is
:23:58. > :24:02.no? Well, I hope I am wrong. There are people there who have got that
:24:03. > :24:06.capability is our enough and who have a high enough intelligence to
:24:07. > :24:09.know that we must secure that breadth of support and they will
:24:10. > :24:14.work for it. We will continue to work for it and I will. We have to
:24:15. > :24:15.stop right now and then this interview. Thank you for being an
:24:16. > :24:21.HARDtalk.