0:00:00 > 0:00:08Now it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk
0:00:09 > 0:00:10I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12After the second presidential debate, Donald Trump
0:00:12 > 0:00:16is still standing.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Just.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20He took the incoming fire prompted by that old recording
0:00:20 > 0:00:23of his foul-mouthed sexual remarks and he responded with ever more
0:00:23 > 0:00:30strident attacks on Hillary Clinton.
0:00:30 > 0:00:38But many senior Republicans have disowned him.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40His disapproval ratings are sky-high.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42My guest is one of the American Conservative movement's most
0:00:42 > 0:00:45influential voices, Grover Norquist, a long-time fan of Trump's platform,
0:00:45 > 0:01:01but has Trump got the Republicans on the road to ruin?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Grover Norquist, in Washington, DC, welcome to Hardtalk.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Good to be with you.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Let us start with that presidential debate on Sunday night
0:01:23 > 0:01:29in the United States.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33I know you watched it, just as I did, did you watch it
0:01:33 > 0:01:35with a sense of shame about the performance
0:01:35 > 0:01:38of the Republican candidate, Donald Trump?
0:01:38 > 0:01:42Well in the debate, I thought there was the beginning of a focus,
0:01:42 > 0:01:45on the very poor economic policies of the Obama administration
0:01:45 > 0:01:47and the disastrous recommendations of Hillary Clinton and if Trump
0:01:47 > 0:01:50stays on that, he can still win this race,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53he is behind now, but when he stays on economics, focuses on that,
0:01:53 > 0:02:02he does better in the polls.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05When he focuses on Hillary Clinton's actual written down proposals
0:02:05 > 0:02:10to raise taxes on all Americans, then he does quite well.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14He has actually got a quite sound economic policy in terms of less
0:02:14 > 0:02:16regulation, reducing taxes, all the things that in American
0:02:16 > 0:02:19history have given us strong periods of economic growth and exactly
0:02:19 > 0:02:28what has not happened in the last eight years.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I promise you, I want to talk about the economic platforms
0:02:31 > 0:02:33and particularly the taxation platforms of both candidates,
0:02:33 > 0:02:37because that is a particular interest of yours.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41I asked advisedly about your feelings as you watch that debate
0:02:41 > 0:02:44unfold because you know as well as I do that front
0:02:44 > 0:02:47and centre of that debate was not economic policy-making,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50it was the personalities and the personal styles of the two
0:02:50 > 0:02:53candidates and we have to, I think, given that you are a player
0:02:53 > 0:02:57on the right of American politics, we have to talk about Mr Trump,
0:02:57 > 0:02:59about his decision, still at this point in the race,
0:02:59 > 0:03:04to go on the attack about Hillary Clinton,
0:03:04 > 0:03:14accusing her and her husband Bill of being abusive to women.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Mr Trump called Hillary Clinton the devil at one point and he said
0:03:17 > 0:03:20that the special prosecutor should launch an investigation and she may
0:03:20 > 0:03:21well end up in prison.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24I want your feelings about that approach from Mr Trump.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27I think the point he made about her destruction of females,
0:03:27 > 0:03:31I have always been told by lawyers that even if there is not a subpoena
0:03:31 > 0:03:34for something that the government asked for, if there is just
0:03:34 > 0:03:37in the newspaper, talk that there might be a subpoena
0:03:37 > 0:03:52that it is a felony to destroy any evidence.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55I think he was less articulate, but what I would have said was,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59if I am President and anyone did what you did, I would fire them
0:03:59 > 0:04:02and I would have them hauled up on charges,
0:04:02 > 0:04:05because there are people who go to prison, as he correctly said,
0:04:05 > 0:04:07who did much less than what Hillary Clinton did.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10You cannot destroy thousands of e-mails that have been
0:04:10 > 0:04:13subpoenaed, but you can if you own the justice department.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16Under rule of law, you cannot do that and not face charges
0:04:16 > 0:04:18and probably prison for it.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21It is a very serious crime in the United States to destroy
0:04:21 > 0:04:28evidence that has been asked for under subpoena.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30That I think he was quite correct about.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34I think he should forget her and say of course she should not be
0:04:34 > 0:04:37President, you should have had to resign a long time ago,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39given the destruction of evidence, but, moving forward,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42let me just say, in a Trump administration, nobody does this
0:04:42 > 0:04:49and does not also face jail.
0:04:49 > 0:04:49Nobody.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53I do not care how important you are and who you are married to,
0:04:53 > 0:04:54it does not happen.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Mr Trump himself with the recordings we have now heard, all of us have
0:04:58 > 0:05:00heard, from 2005, with lewd, course, disgusting misogynist remarks which,
0:05:00 > 0:05:04to many people, represent a form of at least open acceptance
0:05:04 > 0:05:05of sexually offensive almost sexually assaulting behaviour,
0:05:05 > 0:05:14you choose just to gloss over that, do you?
0:05:14 > 0:05:17No, I was talking about what he was focused on in that,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21obviously that came up and he said he was very not proud of that
0:05:21 > 0:05:25and quite so...
0:05:25 > 0:05:34He called it locker room banter, is that fair enough for you?
0:05:34 > 0:05:39I think he should have gone further, in repudiating the comments
0:05:39 > 0:05:41and making it clear that it was destructive.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44He should have gone much further than Hillary Clinton did
0:05:44 > 0:05:48when she was on tape mocking a rape victim where she helped the guy
0:05:48 > 0:05:49who was charged with it.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52When Hillary did that, I think that is a much more
0:05:52 > 0:05:55disgusting thing than what Trump did and I put them both
0:05:55 > 0:05:58into the category of pretty disgusting behaviour towards women
0:05:58 > 0:06:10and victims of sexual misadventure.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13I think that is unhelpful in both of their cases.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16It is true that the press has found the comments of Trump more
0:06:16 > 0:06:18interesting to talk about than Hillary's
0:06:18 > 0:06:23although I think making fun of rape victims is probably beyond the pale.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Mrs Clinton has categorically denied that.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29I tell you what, I am interested to hear you and it seems to be
0:06:29 > 0:06:32that we have found that very rare creature in Washington,
0:06:32 > 0:06:35DC, a senior Republican who is prepared still to front up
0:06:35 > 0:06:43as a clear open public supporter of Donald Trump.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45You are a rare breed today.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48If you want to ask about how the campaign or debate are going,
0:06:48 > 0:06:49we can talk about that.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53It is accurate that Hillary has come out and said in her proposals
0:06:53 > 0:07:00that she would raise $1 trillion in taxes...
0:07:00 > 0:07:04I promise you that I will get there, but I want to do the politics
0:07:04 > 0:07:06and then get deep into the policy.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08The policy is the politics.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11Let me point out to you that many senior Republicans and we can talk
0:07:11 > 0:07:15about some of the most senior, starting with John McCain in Arizona
0:07:15 > 0:07:18and a whole bunch of others and we hear today that Paul Ryan
0:07:18 > 0:07:22is having a very serious discussion with his team about walking away
0:07:22 > 0:07:24from his endorsement of Donald Trump, the most senior
0:07:24 > 0:07:26figures in your party, the Republican party today,
0:07:26 > 0:07:30are running away from Donald Trump, but you are not and I want to know
0:07:30 > 0:07:42why you are not.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45For two reasons, one, I have not actually endorsed
0:07:45 > 0:07:47Donald Trump, I am supportive of his economic policies compared
0:07:47 > 0:07:51to Hillary Clinton's and if you're asking for a judgment on how
0:07:51 > 0:07:54the campaigns are going it is quite correct that Hillary Clinton
0:07:54 > 0:07:57and those in the press who support Hillary Clinton do not
0:07:57 > 0:08:01want to focus on her tax policy, do not want to focus on her support
0:08:01 > 0:08:04for new regulations, do not want to focus on her failures
0:08:04 > 0:08:07as Secretary of State and do not want to focus on what Donald Trump
0:08:08 > 0:08:10has laid out as a plan on economics.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12They want to focus on something else and Donald Trump,
0:08:12 > 0:08:14and Hillary Clinton's comments.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17Hillary Clinton has been very vicious to the women that
0:08:17 > 0:08:18Bill Clinton mistreated over the years.
0:08:18 > 0:08:26This idea that Hillary stands up for womanhood is nonsense.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30She spent her entire life trashing the women that Bill Clinton abused.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33You are sticking to Donald Trump's talking points, you say you have not
0:08:33 > 0:08:36endorsed him, but everything you're saying suggests to me
0:08:36 > 0:08:40that there is no mind that you feel that Donald Trump is fit to be
0:08:40 > 0:08:43President of the USA and do you recognise that not only a huge
0:08:43 > 0:08:46number of important people in your own party no longer believe
0:08:46 > 0:08:49that, but clearly many Americans sitting at home watching Mr Trump's
0:08:49 > 0:08:52performances and listening to his words over the last decade
0:08:52 > 0:08:56or more, simply cannot accept that he is fit to be in that
0:08:56 > 0:09:01building we see pictured behind you, the White House.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04You are reading Hillary Clinton's talking points as opposed to asking
0:09:04 > 0:09:09what is happening in the campaign and the country.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12I am an American, I will have to live either with someone
0:09:12 > 0:09:15who thinks taxes should be raised on all Americans,
0:09:15 > 0:09:17rich, poor, middle class, Hillary Clinton who thinks
0:09:17 > 0:09:20the policies over the last year should be continued and who has
0:09:20 > 0:09:23endorsed the foreign policy that has gotten us into the present
0:09:23 > 0:09:28challenges we have.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Or someone who would actually sign the legislation that the Republican
0:09:31 > 0:09:33House and Senate would put forward.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37If Donald Trump does well, winning in the race even if he did not win,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40he will have a Republican house and Senate and we can begin
0:09:40 > 0:09:47the process of reducing taxes and less regulation.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49It does take a Republican signature to do that.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53A final point on that and then we will get to the discussion,
0:09:53 > 0:09:54the economic and tax policy.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59You obviously do not want to go there and Hillary Clinton
0:09:59 > 0:10:00cannot do that.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04The beauty of the show is we have time to do it all.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Bear with me and we will get to what you want to talk about.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11The tone of the debates, we have had two of them now,
0:10:11 > 0:10:13the tone that Donald Trump comes out with, the stridency
0:10:13 > 0:10:16and the accusations, I only mention the accusations
0:10:16 > 0:10:18about Bill Clinton and I must emphasise that Mr Clinton
0:10:18 > 0:10:22categorically denies as well.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25The tone that he is using is creating the most
0:10:25 > 0:10:33toxic divisive atmosphere in the United States to date.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34Do you not worry about that either?
0:10:34 > 0:10:36OK, let's be serious about this.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I live in the United States, the Clintons have done nothing
0:10:39 > 0:10:42but spew this stuff out, first at Bush 41, the Republican Congress,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46I think that makes her unacceptable as a presidential candidate.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50The challenge is, we have to have one of these two characters
0:10:50 > 0:10:54who is going to win and if you want to know who has got a policy that
0:10:54 > 0:10:58would help the United States both economically and in terms of job
0:10:58 > 0:11:04creation, Trump would sign the bills that Congress would pass.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09With Hillary you would have another Obama who would veto all that.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13You have wanted me from the very beginning to get deep into tax
0:11:13 > 0:11:20and economic policy, so let us have a go at that.
0:11:20 > 0:11:21The entire campaign.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23Hillary does not want to and I understand that.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27Trump at his rallies does not spend a whole lot of time talking
0:11:27 > 0:11:31about tax and economic policy, you know that full well.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33Let us get there now, according to the tax foundation
0:11:33 > 0:11:37analysis of Donald Trump's tax plan, it is going to involve a loss
0:11:37 > 0:11:40of between 3.9 and $5.9 trillion of revenues coming into the federal
0:11:40 > 0:11:43government over the next decade and he has no idea how
0:11:43 > 0:11:51he is going to fill that hole.
0:11:51 > 0:11:52Two things.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55The Republicans in the House have five times voted for Paul Ryan's
0:11:55 > 0:11:57form of entitlements, which do overtime
0:11:57 > 0:12:04dramatically reduce...
0:12:04 > 0:12:09They do not come anywhere close to filling a $5.9 trillion hole.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Actually over a decade, there are six trillion
0:12:12 > 0:12:13dollars of reductions.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18In that case, why is Donald Trump talking about emergency measures?
0:12:18 > 0:12:22If we crash the economy, it does not matter because we can
0:12:22 > 0:12:23buy back our debt at discounted rates.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27Why is he saying that if he is so confident that the sums
0:12:27 > 0:12:30are going to add up?
0:12:30 > 0:12:30Two things.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35One is if you look at his proposal, first of all it has to go
0:12:35 > 0:12:36through the House and the Senate.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39His tax proposal is similar to the House Republican proposal
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and would be extremely helpful.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46One thing that your viewers might want to know and they would not know
0:12:46 > 0:12:49from listening to Hillary Clinton or her apologists talking
0:12:49 > 0:12:53about the plan but we have a 35% corporate rate in the United States
0:12:53 > 0:12:55which is maybe the highest in the world and certainly
0:12:55 > 0:12:58the highest in the world in any significant economy.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00He wants to take that to 50%.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Hillary Clinton once added a trillion dollars in higher taxes,
0:13:02 > 0:13:09many of them on businesses.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11She is for not reducing the rates for anybody,
0:13:11 > 0:13:13either individuals, rich or poor or companies,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16we cannot compete in the United States as well as we ought
0:13:16 > 0:13:20to with a 35% rate when the European average, is 25%.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23We have historically had lower taxes than Europe but in our businesses
0:13:23 > 0:13:29we have higher taxes than Europe.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31The Republicans have called for reducing this.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32Democrats have refused to.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34Hillary wants to make the problem worse.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38She spelled out 1.3 trillion in higher taxes.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Not only on higher income people but on businesses and she endorsed
0:13:41 > 0:13:46attacks on anyone who makes less than 113,000.
0:13:46 > 0:13:51She has endorsed Bernie Sanders' wage tax.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Says she will only tax rich people, on the other hand she has said
0:13:54 > 0:14:01she would sign a bill that will tax middle income and low income people.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03That is a future we cannot afford.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05That is something that Hillary Clinton and her campaign
0:14:05 > 0:14:08says is not the way they described their own policy.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10I want to ask you this...
0:14:10 > 0:14:11She said in Iowa.
0:14:11 > 0:14:12Do you care...?
0:14:12 > 0:14:14You said something that was not true.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17I told you what the Hillary Clinton campaign characterised their tax
0:14:17 > 0:14:20plan as and I am telling you, they characterised their tax plan
0:14:20 > 0:14:23as redistributive only in the extent that they are going to target
0:14:23 > 0:14:27the top 1% of the richest Americans.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Most of their focus is the top 0.1% and she calls it her fair share
0:14:31 > 0:14:36strategy and you know it as well as I do.
0:14:36 > 0:14:42She has also endorsed a soda pop tax, tax on guns, endorsed taxes...
0:14:42 > 0:14:48Bernie Sanders' tax of anyone who makes less than 118,000 a year,
0:14:48 > 0:14:51pays a tax, everybody, that is a tax on middle income
0:14:51 > 0:14:54and lower income people.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57She can say she will not do that, but she has endorsed it.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59I will ask you a very basic question.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Do you care about the gross and growing inequality
0:15:02 > 0:15:06in the USA today?
0:15:06 > 0:15:11I am very concerned that lower income people do not have jobs,
0:15:11 > 0:15:16if we had grown at Reagan growth rates instead of at Obama/Clinton
0:15:16 > 0:15:19rates, there would be more than 10 million Americans in work.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24I asked my question.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28Donald Trump is a self proclaimed multi billionaire and under
0:15:28 > 0:15:32the Trump plan, those earning the billions and we are talking
0:15:32 > 0:15:35about the top 0.1% of the population will still only pay,
0:15:35 > 0:15:40if indeed they pay tax, at least we think we know,
0:15:40 > 0:15:42he will not tell us, Donald Trump has not paid federal
0:15:42 > 0:15:46income tax for a long time, those who have paid it,
0:15:46 > 0:15:47at the top rate of 33%.
0:15:47 > 0:15:53Do you think that is right?
0:15:53 > 0:15:55There are two ways to look at this.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58There is the left wing way, that Hillary Clinton puts forward,
0:15:58 > 0:16:02they spent 50 years with the great society here in the United States
0:16:02 > 0:16:04where they said they knew how to cure poverty.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09They spent trillions of dollars, maybe 20 trillion dollars
0:16:09 > 0:16:16and poverty has not necessarily gotten better as a result.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19They have given up on saying they know how to help poor people.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22So the new thing that you have said is inequality,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24well, you can reduce inequality in one
0:16:24 > 0:16:30of two ways, you can help create
0:16:30 > 0:16:34jobs for people who do not have them, go from zero to $20,000
0:16:34 > 0:16:36or $30,000 a year, that reduces inequality
0:16:36 > 0:16:39or you could shoot Bill Gates, and that it reduces inequality.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42So you can either attack higher income people and either do them
0:16:42 > 0:16:45in and take their money away, which would technically reduce
0:16:45 > 0:16:47inequality, but it would not do anything to help middle
0:16:47 > 0:16:48and lower income people.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I am interested in helping middle income people and higher income
0:16:51 > 0:16:55people who have been badly damaged by Hillary and Obama's tax and spend
0:16:55 > 0:16:58policies which have given us the rottenness that has struck
0:16:58 > 0:17:08since the 1960s.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10This 2% growth is not an American historic average,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13particularly coming out of recession, 4% under Reagan.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16You are sort of assuming that the very richest Americans
0:17:16 > 0:17:19do pay their income tax, but of course we learned thanks
0:17:19 > 0:17:25to the New York Times and the leak about the almost $1 billion that
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Trump declared as an operating loss in 1995, that Trump even though
0:17:29 > 0:17:32he will not, unlike any other presidential candidates for 40
0:17:32 > 0:17:37years, he will not publish his tax returns, it is very obvious
0:17:37 > 0:17:40that he has not paid federal income tax for at least 18 years
0:17:41 > 0:17:42out of the last 20.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46I just wonder, this is personal, you care a great deal about the tax
0:17:46 > 0:17:49system and you write and think about it all the time,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52in the most basic terms, are you concerned about a guy
0:17:52 > 0:17:56who is one of the richest Americans in your country,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59who has, I am not saying it is illegal, but has avoided
0:17:59 > 0:18:03paying income tax for pretty much two decades?
0:18:03 > 0:18:07OK, as you may understand in the United States,
0:18:07 > 0:18:12we allow loss to carry forwards.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Donald Trump has paid all the taxes he owes, if he did not,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18the IRS would haul him into jail.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22So, he has paid all the taxes he owes, the question is did
0:18:22 > 0:18:25he like the Clintons use the losses to carry forward,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28did he, like the New York Times Corporation allow losses to carry
0:18:28 > 0:18:31forwards and the answer is, I would assume so, because he lost
0:18:31 > 0:18:33almost $1 billion one year.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36That is because you do not have income, you average out the income
0:18:36 > 0:18:41over several years and if you lose money one year and make it another,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45you do not say over ten years if you did not earn any net income
0:18:45 > 0:18:48that you somehow owe income taxes.
0:18:48 > 0:18:54You founded America's...
0:18:54 > 0:18:55Or the Clintons...
0:18:55 > 0:18:59One of the most important figures on the right in tax in your country,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02just a simple yes or no, do you believe, should Donald Trump
0:19:02 > 0:19:07publish and allow the public to see his tax returns?
0:19:07 > 0:19:10I am of two minds on that.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13One, I think it would be helpful to him politically.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17Two, I am not sure it is a good idea for the government to insist
0:19:17 > 0:19:20on looking at everyone's economic situation and publishing it...
0:19:20 > 0:19:24We're running out of time and there is one big policy
0:19:24 > 0:19:27issue I want to discuss with you for a moment or two
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and that is immigration.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33Here are words from yourself, Grover Norquist, people you say
0:19:33 > 0:19:36are an asset, not a liability.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38The US, is the most immigrant-friendly nation in the
0:19:38 > 0:19:42world and the richest, and this is not
0:19:42 > 0:19:44a coincidence, those voices that would make us less immigrant
0:19:44 > 0:19:48friendly would make us less
0:19:48 > 0:19:54successful, less prosperous and certainly less American.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56Well, step forward Donald Trump.
0:19:56 > 0:20:01He wants to massively restrict immigration,
0:20:01 > 0:20:03he wants to build, quote-unquote, an impenetrable wall with Mexico.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07You presumably are completely at odds with his stand on immigration.
0:20:07 > 0:20:08Absolutely.
0:20:08 > 0:20:15And the person who killed immigration reform in 2007
0:20:15 > 0:20:18when Bush, who I supported, George W Bush, put it forward,
0:20:18 > 0:20:24was named Barack Obama.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27He came into the meeting, where they thought they had a deal,
0:20:27 > 0:20:29and he dropped the letter down...
0:20:29 > 0:20:31Let us not talk about Barack Obama.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35This is essential.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37You still say he represents America's best hope,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39and you completely disagree with his immigration policy!
0:20:39 > 0:20:44My argument is, we have two people we have to choose from, right now.
0:20:44 > 0:20:55Hillary Clinton and Trump.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58My argument as to who the best guy to run,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01Scott Walker of Wisconsin or Rick Perry of Texas were people
0:21:01 > 0:21:05that you would say would be hard to find someone in the USA more
0:21:05 > 0:21:07capable or competent, both of whom would have been much
0:21:07 > 0:21:09clearer on the importance of immigration.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11Trump actually sometimes says the right thing in terms
0:21:11 > 0:21:16of the importance of immigration.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17H1B visas and things like that.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21Hang on, there surely is a threshold beyond which you say to yourself,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24I can longer front up and express support and positive opinion
0:21:24 > 0:21:25about Donald Trump.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28If I may get personal for a second, you are married to a Muslim
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Palestinian-American.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36Donald Trump said he would ban all Muslims entering the US.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39He now says it has morphed into some sort of mega-vetting strategy.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42But come what may, your wife's family are going to have massive
0:21:42 > 0:21:44problems entering the United States
0:21:44 > 0:21:45if he becomes president.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48At what point are you prepared to say to yourself, this
0:21:48 > 0:21:49man is just unacceptable?
0:21:49 > 0:21:54Two things.
0:21:54 > 0:22:00The alternative is Hillary Clinton, who would do, has done,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03and will continue to do great damage to the country.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05She would not bar Muslims from the country!
0:22:05 > 0:22:06OK.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Looking at the totality of everything, and my concern
0:22:09 > 0:22:13is that we have a Republican House, a Republican Senate,
0:22:13 > 0:22:20if we do, if Donald Trump gets elected,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24with the Republican House and a Republican Senate.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27And the concerns that you raise,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30and I share, on immigration and the importance of immigration
0:22:30 > 0:22:34to the United States, I am very sad to see Europe go off
0:22:34 > 0:22:37the deep end on these issues as well, and some of that
0:22:37 > 0:22:38conversation happens in the United States.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40It is unhelpful, it is destructive.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43The challenge we have is to organise labour in the United States
0:22:43 > 0:22:45as the number one force against immigration reform,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and has been historically for more than 100 years.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51And Hillary Clinton is incapable of standing up to organised labour
0:22:51 > 0:22:54on any of the issues that are important to organised labour.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56We are almost out of time.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58The final straight question, we have discussed the Trump
0:22:58 > 0:23:01campaign, you expressed reservations about it, you certainly could not
0:23:01 > 0:23:01support Hillary Clinton.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05Are you telling me that you will on 8 November cast
0:23:05 > 0:23:08a vote for Donald Trump, when so many people in your party
0:23:08 > 0:23:11now say that that is simply a position and an act
0:23:11 > 0:23:13they cannot go through with?
0:23:13 > 0:23:16OK, two things.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19I live in Washington, DC, I do not actually get to vote.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22I am sorry, that will not be good enough for me.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27You have to tell me, are you still in your heart,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30prepared to say, this guy is right to be in the White House,
0:23:30 > 0:23:32given the choice?
0:23:32 > 0:23:34OK, with a Republican house and Senate...
0:23:34 > 0:23:36I am not asking you about that.
0:23:36 > 0:23:41I am asking you about the commander-in-chief!
0:23:41 > 0:23:44It is critically important, because the Republican House
0:23:44 > 0:23:48and Senate will discipline either Hillary or Trump,
0:23:48 > 0:23:51in terms of what they are capable of doing,
0:23:51 > 0:23:57and I have complete and tremendous faith in both Paul Ryan
0:23:57 > 0:23:59and Mitchell McConnell in their ability.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03They were able to wrestle Obama on a number of key issues and get
0:24:03 > 0:24:04much better policies.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06Will you vote for him, yes or no?
0:24:06 > 0:24:13Would you vote for Trump, yes or no?
0:24:13 > 0:24:15I will cheerfully vote for the Republicans to take
0:24:15 > 0:24:19the House and Senate and I will do whatever I can to stop
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Hillary Clinton from having a veto at the White House
0:24:21 > 0:24:23to continue her left of centre
0:24:23 > 0:24:25policies, which have been held for eight years now.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28Grover Norquist, we have to leave it there.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30Thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32You got it.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47Hello there.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49For many places it has turned into another decidedly
0:24:49 > 0:24:50chilly autumn night.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52The weather has got stuck in this pattern, really.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55High pressure across Scandinavia holding firm, bringing us easterly
0:24:55 > 0:24:56winds across the country.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00It is the places exposed to that easterly wind that are seeing more
0:25:00 > 0:25:02in the way of cloud as we start Tuesday.
0:25:02 > 0:25:03Still some showers.