0:00:07 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Freedom of expression is severely curtailed in Egypt.
0:00:14 > 0:00:20Journalists, bloggers, civil society activists
0:00:20 > 0:00:23and political dissidents have been locked up by the thousand
0:00:23 > 0:00:25under the Sisi regime, which makes the Egyptian movie
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Eshtebak - or the Clash - all the more important.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31The much lauded film paints a remarkable picture
0:00:31 > 0:00:37of the tumult in Egypt which led to the military takeover in 2013.
0:00:37 > 0:00:41The director is my guest today, Mohamed Diab.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44What has happened to the spirit of the Tahrir revolution?
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Mohamed Diab, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:15 > 0:01:15Thank you.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17You are a movie-maker.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21How big, how deep a breath do you have to take before making
0:01:21 > 0:01:25a movie in today's Egypt?
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Particularly in a movie that's are about politics,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32society, culture in your country today.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36I'm going to tell you what everyone around me told me before
0:01:36 > 0:01:38making that film - don't.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Everyone told me, even my family, everyone knew this film's going
0:01:41 > 0:01:43to explode in my face at the end.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Making a political film, or something that has
0:01:45 > 0:01:49a political statement, it's almost suicide.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Not just because of the government or the regime, it's
0:01:52 > 0:01:53because of everyone.
0:01:53 > 0:01:53Everyone.
0:01:53 > 0:01:59We're in the midst of a big division in Egyptian society almost amounting
0:01:59 > 0:02:00to civil war.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02The streets are not...
0:02:02 > 0:02:05People are not killing each other these days but, at
0:02:05 > 0:02:06some point, they did.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09And the hatred extends to every family member.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13So Egyptian families, the first rule of any family
0:02:13 > 0:02:14gathering is - don't talk about politics.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17So if everybody, your friends, your professional colleagues,
0:02:17 > 0:02:22everybody said don't, and you did, would it be right to characterise
0:02:22 > 0:02:29Eshtebak the movie as your sort of act of resistance?
0:02:29 > 0:02:31I was part of the Egyptian revolution and I stayed
0:02:31 > 0:02:36as an activist, traditional activist, for almost three years.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39But I think the most and the biggest positive thing I've
0:02:39 > 0:02:42ever done is Eshtebak, Clash.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45Because it's talking about why we were in the streets
0:02:45 > 0:02:47in the first place.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51It's very evident when you see the film that it's praising unity
0:02:51 > 0:02:53and it's praising...
0:02:53 > 0:02:57It's anti hysteria, anti-division.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00And there is no more message, a bigger message and more important
0:03:00 > 0:03:02message than now in today's Egypt.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Well, it's interesting you say it's anti-division.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Egypt today is such a polarised society.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09It's such a divided society.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14Is it possible to make a movie which portrays those tumultuous
0:03:14 > 0:03:17events of the summer of 2013 when the Morsi, Islamic Brotherhood
0:03:17 > 0:03:20government, was in essence toppled by the military?
0:03:20 > 0:03:26Is it possible to make a movie about that and not take sides?
0:03:26 > 0:03:29It depends on what film, why you're making that film.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32I'm making a film about coexistence.
0:03:32 > 0:03:37I'm making a film against hysteria and division.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40So the film is not trying to show any side as good or bad.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43It's trying to show us all the human side in us.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47But I mean, here's the thing, though - I, in the studio,
0:03:47 > 0:03:50have talked to Egyptian officials, I've talked to Egyptian human rights
0:03:50 > 0:03:52activists about what happened in 2013.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Because of course, it matters today to make sense of why
0:03:55 > 0:03:59the military took over and why we have the government that you guys
0:03:59 > 0:04:00have in Egypt today.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03And the key question is, for many people, was it a coup
0:04:03 > 0:04:05or was it not a coup?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08Now, for you as a film director portraying those events of summer
0:04:08 > 0:04:112013, do you have to take a view on that?
0:04:11 > 0:04:13I actually deliberately avoided talking about that in
0:04:13 > 0:04:15the film because this is...
0:04:15 > 0:04:19The question that you just asked, that's a dividing question in Egypt.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Egyptians are, like, half...
0:04:21 > 0:04:24If you said the word 'coup', there is no conversation anymore.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27And if you said the word 'it's a revolution',
0:04:27 > 0:04:28there is no conversation anymore.
0:04:28 > 0:04:29But isn't that a copout?
0:04:29 > 0:04:33You know, you're a film-maker making a film about something deeply
0:04:33 > 0:04:36controversial that matters so much to Egypt today and you're saying -
0:04:36 > 0:04:39oh, but I just opted out of the key question.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41No, it depends on what film are you making?
0:04:41 > 0:04:42I'm making a film about coexistence.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I'm making a film about humans.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46I'm trying to humanise the enemy.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Everyone is seeing the other as the enemy, dehumanise the other.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53This is the first step in civil war and I'm trying to dissolve that.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55I'm trying to make a film that counters that.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00And in order to do that, I have to dehumanise everyone.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03And in order to do that, I have to humanise everyone.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06And that's what provoked the people the most, humanise the other.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09And what is remarkable about your movie is that the device
0:05:09 > 0:05:11you used to humanise the situation is so unusual.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14You filmed pretty much the whole movie from the inside of
0:05:14 > 0:05:16an eight-metre-square police truck.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18Why did you do that?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21It was a metaphor of the feeling that everyone in Egypt
0:05:21 > 0:05:24is feeling right now - we are all trapped and we
0:05:24 > 0:05:25are trapped together.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29Are we are going to get out, are we are going to continue living,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31what are we going to do?
0:05:31 > 0:05:34And I wanted people to experience the full experience of getting
0:05:34 > 0:05:37trapped inside a car like this, how brutal the situation is.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39'Experience' is the word.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Let's give everybody watching a brief taster of the experience
0:05:42 > 0:05:45of being inside that truck.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47Let's watch a clip from the movie.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49Sure, let's do that.
0:05:49 > 0:05:59SHOUTING AND COMMOTION.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16BANGING.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42I find it riveting.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45I mean, I have some experience as a foreign correspondent
0:06:45 > 0:06:49of being in riots that have turned violent in Egypt.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51That, to me, just looks so authentic.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54But what's really striking about it is that all
0:06:54 > 0:06:59the footage taken from inside the truck, it's all chaos.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03You have no real way of knowing what the heck is going on.
0:07:03 > 0:07:04Was that deliberate?
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Maybe in those clips, it's hard to determine what's
0:07:07 > 0:07:10going on, but in the film, it was mapped out.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12How can we make the film understandable, especially
0:07:12 > 0:07:15for a foreign audience?
0:07:15 > 0:07:19So although the car has 25 main characters and outside,
0:07:19 > 0:07:22there's at least another ten, it was very important for us to make
0:07:22 > 0:07:26the film understandable for everyone and I think we did that.
0:07:26 > 0:07:31Yet to me, the film's not about only the political situation in Egypt.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34It's about the division that is sweeping the whole world.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38You're going to feel that this film could have been about Brexit.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41This film could have been about Clinton and Trump.
0:07:41 > 0:07:42It doesn't matter.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45And in the film, there is no political conversation of, like,
0:07:45 > 0:07:46everybody is explaining his side.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50It's just - there is a division between three sides, or two sides,
0:07:50 > 0:07:52and that's what the core of the film is about.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56It forces people who've been raised to regard the other as the enemy
0:07:56 > 0:07:59to actually deal with each other as human beings.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Because there they all are stuck in the back of this police truck.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Whether they happen to be Muslim Brotherhood, Islamists,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07or whether they happen to be supporters of the military,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09whether they're young students, whether they're secular
0:08:09 > 0:08:11or religious, they're all in this mess together.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12Exactly.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16And the film is just trying to remind us all we don't have
0:08:16 > 0:08:18to agree on everything to coexist.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21And unfortunately, right now in a crazy situation,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24people think we have to agree fully in order to exist,
0:08:24 > 0:08:25and that's completely wrong.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28But one thing you do which I think is very difficult
0:08:28 > 0:08:33to do in Egypt today, you humanise the Islamist.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35They come in all shapes and sizes, literally.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38There's the young girl, the teenager, who brings her father
0:08:38 > 0:08:42along and she's inclined to support the Brotherhood.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44There's the die-hard political activist from the Brotherhood.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47There's those who were Brotherhood, but now have doubts about it.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49But the point is, you humanise them.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52You say to Egyptians and the people all over the world, don't regard
0:08:52 > 0:08:56these folks as just terrorists or as people that have one
0:08:56 > 0:08:58set of beliefs.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01They're complicated, they're mixed, they're just like the rest of us.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05That's actually the most important thing about this film to do this.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09This film, this has been big research.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12This is like a research study when you see that film.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15It's the first time you see the difference between
0:09:15 > 0:09:17the Muslim Brotherhood and the way they are,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19the organisation from the inside.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21You see the difference between a Muslim Brotherhood member
0:09:21 > 0:09:23and just a supporter.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26You see the difference between a Jihadi and a Salafi.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30Those things, you need to understand in order to talk about, like...
0:09:30 > 0:09:33At the end of the film...
0:09:33 > 0:09:37I don't want to just say everything, but at the end of the film,
0:09:37 > 0:09:38some people turn into Isis.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41This film took place just before the rise of Isis.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44So you need to understand, how did we reach that point?
0:09:44 > 0:09:48Most of us in the West, most of the people in the West think
0:09:48 > 0:09:49Isis grow on trees or something.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52You need to understand, how did they reach that point?
0:09:52 > 0:09:55And by the way, most of them - just like any heinous criminal
0:09:55 > 0:09:59in the world - at the beginning, they were normal people.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02The other thing that you do is, you portray the state in the form
0:10:02 > 0:10:05of the security police who are obviously manning the van
0:10:05 > 0:10:07and they're going out and grabbing people,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10arresting them and chucking them into the back of the van.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14And on one level, you're inviting us to take a pretty negative view
0:10:14 > 0:10:17of the state as the heavy hand of authoritarianism that's depriving
0:10:17 > 0:10:19people of their freedom, but you also humanise
0:10:19 > 0:10:20some of the police.
0:10:20 > 0:10:21You know, they're facing real dilemmas.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24There's a girl who wants to go to the toilet.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Does the policeman let her or not?
0:10:26 > 0:10:27Is that humane or inhumane?
0:10:27 > 0:10:32And you suggest that even the police are complicated, that there
0:10:32 > 0:10:34are divisions within them.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37That there are some that are very humane and some who are not.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41Some people in Egypt will say right now, the state is simply repressive,
0:10:41 > 0:10:44and you haven't portrayed it as entirely oppressive.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47It's the same argument I said about Islamists
0:10:47 > 0:10:49or the Muslim Brotherhood.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52How I portrayed them in the film is the same argument to answer
0:10:52 > 0:10:54the police argument.
0:10:54 > 0:11:01You think you don't have any friends who became police officers?
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Were they really tough at the beginning?
0:11:03 > 0:11:05Have things changed them?
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Have they become more violent?
0:11:08 > 0:11:11If someone killed a friend of theirs or a police officer.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14There's a vicious circle of violence.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17You need to understand where people are coming from.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22And to portray people as just cartoonish characters who are just
0:11:22 > 0:11:26evil, who just do bad things with no motives,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31that is the most superficial portrayal of human beings and it's
0:11:31 > 0:11:33not benefiting anyone.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36Well, let's not talk about the state as fictionalised in your movie,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38let's talk about the state as you have to deal
0:11:38 > 0:11:40with it as a film-maker.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41Let's talk about censorship.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45You know, as I understand it, you're required as part of the deal
0:11:45 > 0:11:48to get distribution and licence in Egypt to show the movie
0:11:48 > 0:11:51in your home country, you're required to put some captions
0:11:51 > 0:11:55at the beginning which read, "After the events of the June 30th
0:11:55 > 0:11:59revolution, bloody clashes took place led by the Muslim Brotherhood,
0:11:59 > 0:12:03which was seeking to stop the peaceful transition of power."
0:12:03 > 0:12:07Now, that would strike many as state propaganda
0:12:07 > 0:12:10against the Muslim Brotherhood, why did you agree to that?
0:12:10 > 0:12:14It's 100% state propaganda and I didn't agree to it.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16But it's on the movie and it's seen by Egyptians.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18It's on the movie.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21I don't have control over the movie in Egypt, as the producer.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25And from day one, at the premiere of the film, I went on TV
0:12:25 > 0:12:28and on every TV channel, I said, "People, this is wrong.
0:12:28 > 0:12:29I'm completely against it."
0:12:29 > 0:12:31Because the film is actually about coexistence.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35It's not about propaganda to any side, so discard this.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39But the producer had feel the ultimatum - either put this,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41or there's no film.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43I disagreed, he didn't.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45Would you have pulled the film?
0:12:45 > 0:12:47Um...
0:12:47 > 0:12:48It's a very...
0:12:48 > 0:12:50Obviously, not internationally, but would you have...
0:12:50 > 0:12:54I'm going to tell you why we made the film in the first place.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58We made the film in this time because this is the time when people
0:12:58 > 0:12:59are fighting and killing each other.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02It's the right time to tell them, don't do that.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06I would have made the film ten years later with no problem.
0:13:06 > 0:13:07People would have welcomed the film.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11So to me as a film-maker, I was dreaming of the day that this
0:13:11 > 0:13:14film gets released because it's not about cinema anymore,
0:13:14 > 0:13:15it's about life and death.
0:13:15 > 0:13:16So it's a hard choice.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Thank God I didn't have the final say in it.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22But for me, from day one, I said, I denounce that,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24I'm completely against it, and it's against the message
0:13:24 > 0:13:25of the film.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Did you - and do you even today - feel intimidated by
0:13:29 > 0:13:29the atmosphere in Egypt?
0:13:29 > 0:13:33An atmosphere which sees impositions placed upon your creativity,
0:13:33 > 0:13:34as we've just discussed.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38But also - frankly, thank goodness - you're here in the HARDtalk studio,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41but many dissident voices in Egypt today are locked up,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44thousands of them.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45Do you feel intimidated?
0:13:45 > 0:13:47Definitely, I do.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50I'm going to tell you what you just mentioned is the smallest things
0:13:50 > 0:13:52that happened to the film.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54A week before the release of the film, the distributor
0:13:54 > 0:13:56of the film got a call.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59I don't know what happened, but even though he put money
0:13:59 > 0:14:02in the film, he backed off and he said he's not
0:14:02 > 0:14:03going to distribute the film.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06He scared every cinema in Egypt, they pulled off
0:14:06 > 0:14:07all the posters of the film.
0:14:07 > 0:14:08So it was actually...
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And at some point, there was personal information about me
0:14:11 > 0:14:15and the producer leaked in a way that made us look like spies.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18During the Film Festival in Cannes, there was a ten-minute piece
0:14:18 > 0:14:22about me on Egyptian TV accusing me of being a spy.
0:14:22 > 0:14:28A Parliament member went on TV and said I'm a spy.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30I have got some quotes here.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33One of the official TV stations, state-sponsored TV stations
0:14:33 > 0:14:35in Cairo, described you as somebody who portrays
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Egypt as a moving prison.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39It says that, through your works and social media accounts,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42you promote ideas that are hostile to the state.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Essentially you are being accused of treachery.
0:14:45 > 0:14:53There was one article that says art in the service of terrorism.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57I think if the article was right I should have been in jail for 25
0:14:57 > 0:14:58years or something.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01When you read that sort of thing, do you think to yourself,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05"I can no longer be my creative true self, I can no longer make
0:15:05 > 0:15:08movies in today's Egypt"?
0:15:08 > 0:15:11No, I know inside me it is going to be harder but I know
0:15:11 > 0:15:15I'm going to make films no matter what, even if in my room.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I'm going to make films, I'm not going to quit.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21I always had a back-up plan for this film if I didn't have enough
0:15:21 > 0:15:24finances or I didn't have the permissions for it.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26I would have shot it all in my house.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I would have got that car...
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Where did you shoot it?
0:15:31 > 0:15:32In the streets of Cairo.
0:15:32 > 0:15:33And how much...
0:15:33 > 0:15:35How can I put it this way?
0:15:35 > 0:15:38How obstructive were some people to your efforts to actually film
0:15:38 > 0:15:39on the streets of Cairo?
0:15:39 > 0:15:41The biggest obstruction was the people themselves.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44We were so scared that people mistake us for a real protest
0:15:44 > 0:15:47with police, if they took sides they might shoot us,
0:15:47 > 0:15:50if the police shoot the protesters, so it was a great amount
0:15:50 > 0:15:51of organisation and preparation.
0:15:51 > 0:15:58At some point we shot things like a flash mob.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02We are going to shoot in the biggest street of Cairo with 1,000 extras,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05we are going to show up on film until someone stops us.
0:16:05 > 0:16:06And it happened.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09An hour later the police stormed the place, one guy got stabbed,
0:16:09 > 0:16:10the people attacked us.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14It is so intense, and that proved to me that we are talking
0:16:14 > 0:16:15about hysteria in the right time.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19You have got to have such a passion, such a drive, such commitment
0:16:19 > 0:16:22to keep doing this sort of thing in such a difficult situation,
0:16:22 > 0:16:25which Egypt is today, and we will get back to Egypt today
0:16:25 > 0:16:26in just a minute.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30But just on the personal front, I'm wondering if you are always
0:16:30 > 0:16:31convinced it is worth it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Because I'm thinking about the earlier movie you made,
0:16:34 > 0:16:36just before the Tahrir uprising, all about the violence directed
0:16:36 > 0:16:38against women in Egypt today, sexual violence.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41You called it Cairo 678.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Again, it's won acclaim internationally but the horrible
0:16:44 > 0:16:46depressing truth is that even though the movie
0:16:46 > 0:16:49was seen by some Egyptians, it seems to have made no
0:16:49 > 0:17:00difference to that particular problem in Egypt today.
0:17:00 > 0:17:01I completely disagree.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04I'm going to tell you exactly how it made a difference.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Six years ago when I showed the film, the trailer itself created
0:17:07 > 0:17:10a tsunami of people saying this is a fabrication and this
0:17:10 > 0:17:12is completely fake.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15Now six years later, the first step, and we say that
0:17:15 > 0:17:18actually in the film, of curing anything is actually
0:17:18 > 0:17:20admitting that you have a problem.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24And now Egyptians, after six years, we started the conversation.
0:17:24 > 0:17:25Six years.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Every Egyptian knows we have a pandemic called sexual harassment.
0:17:28 > 0:17:29Have we found a solution?
0:17:29 > 0:17:32No, but every Egyptian now, if you talk to anyone,
0:17:32 > 0:17:39will acknowledge that we have a problem.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41The power of the trailer is interesting.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Luckily enough we have got it so let's invite
0:17:43 > 0:17:44everybody to take a look.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12I mean it's interesting to reflect.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14You made that film what, five or six years ago,
0:18:14 > 0:18:22and yet today, if one looks at all the data from the UN
0:18:22 > 0:18:24and from civic society groups inside Egypt, Egypt -
0:18:24 > 0:18:27of all the countries in the Arab world -
0:18:27 > 0:18:30still has the highest levels of sexual
0:18:30 > 0:18:31violence against women.
0:18:31 > 0:18:32Why?
0:18:32 > 0:18:34It is very complicated.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35It is not only one thing.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40The way we look at women definitely, objectifying women, is one thing.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45I think the film focuses on the shame that is put on women
0:18:45 > 0:18:48if they report the case.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52So silence is the biggest contributor to this pandemic.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54Has that changed in any way?
0:18:54 > 0:18:59Even if the stats are still terrible, is there actually more
0:18:59 > 0:19:02space, if you like, for women to tell the truth
0:19:02 > 0:19:06about their experiences?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09Yes, I can see that during, when we made the film,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12there was only one case of sexual harassment in the history of
0:19:12 > 0:19:13Egypt reported.
0:19:13 > 0:19:14One case.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17So now we have hundreds, hundreds of thousands may be.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20Women are now on social media, you can see how women and girls
0:19:20 > 0:19:26are talking about sexual harassment, completely different,
0:19:26 > 0:19:29and how their families and husbands and fiances
0:19:29 > 0:19:31are taking it differently.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34I remember some girls, women, telling me that she took her husband
0:19:34 > 0:19:37to the cinema to show them 678, to explain.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40She couldn't even bear to talk about it through the film.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43So it is such a complicated film.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47It is not only one thing, and you have to see the film
0:19:47 > 0:19:51because the film for 90 minutes is trying to explain how are things.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54There is a main character who was following everything
0:19:54 > 0:19:58and he sees it from a male point of view, which is, it is a touch.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00It is like Donald Trump, exactly.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02It is a small torch.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05He doesn't think it is going to change someone's life.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07But it does, and you see that through the film.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11A lot of this conversation has been about change, and how you change
0:20:11 > 0:20:13people using art, not just politics.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15You are not a politician, you are an artist.
0:20:15 > 0:20:16I hate politics.
0:20:16 > 0:20:17You hate politics?
0:20:17 > 0:20:18Definitely.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20But let's reflect on politics.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22We talked about the activism you have engaged in,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25in January 2011 and beyond, the Tahrir revolution.
0:20:25 > 0:20:30We were all moved by what we saw on the TV screens, and yet here
0:20:30 > 0:20:33we are five and a half years later.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36There is a former general in power, the most extraordinary repression
0:20:36 > 0:20:38which is seeing thousands and thousands of people locked
0:20:38 > 0:20:41up for speaking out.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43Do you actually believe that anything was achieved
0:20:43 > 0:20:48by that Tahrir uprising?
0:20:48 > 0:20:52I think it is very wrong to look at a particular time and say
0:20:52 > 0:20:57the effect of things stop here.
0:20:57 > 0:21:02If we did the same thing with the French Revolution,
0:21:02 > 0:21:04going after three years of the French Revolution,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06we would have said it failed.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Would people now say it failed?
0:21:08 > 0:21:10No, but the civility was achieved after 75 years.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12They brought the dictator three times.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Three times they brought an emperor back.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17So we can just freeze a moment in time and say the effect today.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21The effect of today is bad but people are willing to change.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24We have a new generation that is aspiring for a new world,
0:21:24 > 0:21:27a new life, a better life of freedom of speech,
0:21:27 > 0:21:35democracy for everyone.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39Until now, since five years we haven't been in power by the way.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43There is in single person who was really someone who believed
0:21:43 > 0:21:46in democracy at heart who is in power in Egypt yet.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50But do you admit you were wildly optimistic
0:21:50 > 0:21:51back in those days?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53100%.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56You went up, I remember the picture, you went up to receive
0:21:56 > 0:21:59a Webby Award, one of the big global internet awards, on behalf
0:21:59 > 0:22:02of the Egyptian people because of all the activism you had
0:22:02 > 0:22:05done on social media, and you said then, you said,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08injustice plus oppression plus social media equals revolution.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12Well, you know, so much for that.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14I'm learning, I'm growing, and I was naive definitely.
0:22:14 > 0:22:21As I told you before, what we thought was just
0:22:21 > 0:22:24like democracy is going to be easy once the dictator is out, no,
0:22:24 > 0:22:27actually what we need to fight more than the dictator
0:22:27 > 0:22:28in the regime is ourselves.
0:22:28 > 0:22:32Most oppression right now is not coming from the military regime,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36it's coming from the people who right now are actually
0:22:36 > 0:22:38completely with what's going on.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40And a final thought.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44You talk about your own personal journey and no longer naive.
0:22:44 > 0:22:49The danger is that you become jaded, you become resigned and wary.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53One of the leaders of the April 6 protest movement said the other day
0:22:53 > 0:22:56when he was talking about whether there could be a new revolt,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59because someone on the web was talking about getting new mass
0:22:59 > 0:23:01protests going on in Egypt.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04He said, "No, forget about it, Egyptians are too tired and too
0:23:04 > 0:23:05divided to revolt today."
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Do you think that is true?
0:23:07 > 0:23:11I think it is true but things are changing so fast and so rapidly.
0:23:11 > 0:23:12The past six months, Egyptian currency lost
0:23:12 > 0:23:1650% of its value.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18I don't think anything matters except economy.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20No one cares any more about human rights.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23No one cares any more about torture, no one cares about democracy.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26We care about one thing, Egyptians, about one thing
0:23:26 > 0:23:29which is economy and economy is going to the worst place
0:23:29 > 0:23:31that we ever saw in our lives.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34And I can see from the people around me who used to support
0:23:34 > 0:23:37the regime that things are not going so well.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40And by the way, from someone who believes in the revolution 100%,
0:23:40 > 0:23:41a revolution is a medical operation.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45There is a better way, and a way that we all wish
0:23:45 > 0:23:48that we don't go to a medical operation, which is pills,
0:23:48 > 0:23:51any kind of medication.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53So that's reform.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56So we wish and pray for reform before the next revolution
0:23:56 > 0:23:58is going to be a bloody revolution.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Everyone around me that I know is escaping the country,
0:24:00 > 0:24:05fearing that day.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06We have to end there.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10It is a bleak thought to end on, but, Mohamed Diab, I thank you very
0:24:10 > 0:24:12much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15Thank you very much.
0:24:36 > 0:24:37Hello there.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41For a good portion of the UK, as we head deeper into the week,
0:24:41 > 0:24:43conditions will settle down as high-pressure builds in.