0:00:02 > 0:00:09Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk from Dublin.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Ireland was battered by the financial crisis in 2008.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20It picked itself up from the floor, but now this country faces another
0:00:20 > 0:00:28potential crisis, this time not of its own making.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30It's all about Brexit, which could have a massive impact
0:00:30 > 0:00:36on this country's economy.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38My guest today is one of Ireland's leading businessmen -
0:00:38 > 0:00:44Michael O'Leary, the boss of Ryanair.
0:00:44 > 0:01:02Can Ireland avoid the Brexit blues?
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Michael Owen Louis, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07It's a great pleasure to be here and welcome to sunny Dublin.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08Thank you very much.
0:01:08 > 0:01:13How big a problem is Brexit for you right now?
0:01:13 > 0:01:15No, it went altered the business plan.
0:01:15 > 0:01:21It was to grow from 100 million passengers last year to about 180
0:01:21 > 0:01:23million passengers over the next eight years.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27But it is clear we are going to have to pivot some of that growth away
0:01:27 > 0:01:30from the UK, so I think the UK will lose out,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33certainly over the next two years, as there is this political
0:01:33 > 0:01:34and economic uncertainty.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37But Ryanair will continue to grow strongly, just more of that growth
0:01:37 > 0:01:40will take place in continental Europe instead of the UK.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42But businesses don't like uncertainty and there is now
0:01:42 > 0:01:45uncertainty all over the place, not least among your passengers,
0:01:45 > 0:01:48who don't know what their own incomes will look like,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50and they also don't know, looking ahead two, three,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53four years, about how easy it is going to be to
0:01:53 > 0:01:54travel around Europe.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57So when you're making a plan, for your future, suddenly,
0:01:57 > 0:01:58uncertainty is everywhere.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01It is, but in Ryanair we love uncertainty, because we have the one
0:02:01 > 0:02:03great response to uncertain times and uncertain economic times
0:02:03 > 0:02:05and that is lower prices.
0:02:05 > 0:02:09We issued a profit warning last week on the back of the fact that we're
0:02:09 > 0:02:11going to cut fares this winter by 15%.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13An unheard of reduction in air fares.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15But that's eating into your profits.
0:02:15 > 0:02:16I think that's a good thing.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19Do you think your shareholders feel the same way?
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Given what has happened to your share price.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23My shareholders can wait in line.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26It's much more important that we are looking
0:02:26 > 0:02:29after our customers, that we are reducing the cost of air
0:02:29 > 0:02:30travel for our customers.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32And over the longer term, our shareholders will benefit.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35But in the short-term, they'll have to take some pain.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38The problem is, it comes back to how much pain you're
0:02:38 > 0:02:39going to have to take.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43You don't know, for example, how low the pound is going to go
0:02:43 > 0:02:45against the dollar, but that is another big,
0:02:45 > 0:02:46big problem for you.
0:02:46 > 0:02:47It's not really.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I mean, the UK accounts for about 25% of our revenues.
0:02:50 > 0:02:51It's your biggest market.
0:02:51 > 0:02:51It is.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55And the pound is now so much weaker, again, it's going to lead people,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58ordinary families across the UK, to think, can I afford
0:02:58 > 0:02:59that foreign holiday?
0:02:59 > 0:03:00Can I afford to fly Ryanair?
0:03:00 > 0:03:04What it will do is leave more and more of them to book Ryanair
0:03:04 > 0:03:07because it's the only way they will be able to afford
0:03:07 > 0:03:09those holidays in Spain, in Italy, in Greece,
0:03:10 > 0:03:10all over Europe.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Let's talk about that phrase you've already used in this interview
0:03:13 > 0:03:17and you've used it before as well, this pivot that you feel you now
0:03:17 > 0:03:20have to to make away from your core operations in the UK.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22What does that really mean in practical terms?
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Firstly, our core operations are not the UK.
0:03:25 > 0:03:26Core operations are Europe.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29The UK accounts for about 25% of our revenues, Europe about 75%.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33I think our plan next year in 2017, Stephen, is we were going to grow
0:03:33 > 0:03:35capacity in the UK by about 12%.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37We now expect to grow by 5%.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40So we've halved our rate of growth next year in the UK.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43And we've reallocated those aircraft and those additional flights
0:03:43 > 0:03:45to countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, where, frankly,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48we can continue to grow without the risks of Brexit
0:03:48 > 0:03:49or the economic uncertainty of Brexit.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Some of those flights will operate back into the UK,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56but there will be less capacity in the UK for the next year or two
0:03:56 > 0:03:58while somebody tells us what the hell is going
0:03:58 > 0:03:59to happen with Brexit.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03So yours is one significant example of the way in which Brexit
0:04:03 > 0:04:06and the uncertainty that comes with it is doing real material
0:04:06 > 0:04:07damage to the UK economy.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11I think there is no question in my mind that Brexit will do...
0:04:11 > 0:04:14I say, the uncertainty over Brexit, I mean, we have to be careful here.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17We are still two years away from Brexit.
0:04:17 > 0:04:17Sure.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21So we are in a period of great uncertainty, not helped by the lack
0:04:21 > 0:04:25of political leadership in the UK, because nobody in the UK has a clue
0:04:25 > 0:04:26what Brexit looks like.
0:04:26 > 0:04:33And we simply have to to whether our way through that uncertainty.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Here's a quote from a very grumpy Michael O'Leary after June 23.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39You said, whether the UK leaves the EU or stays,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42frankly, I couldn't care less, the issue for us is all
0:04:42 > 0:04:44about whether the UK stays in the single market.
0:04:44 > 0:04:44Yes.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Well since you said that, I think it's become clearer
0:04:47 > 0:04:50that it's very unlikely that we are either going to stay
0:04:50 > 0:04:53inside the single market or have extremely preferential access to it.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Given what you've heard in the last few days and weeks,
0:04:56 > 0:05:02what is your view of the final deal that is likely to be done?
0:05:02 > 0:05:06In my view, I think the final deal will be the UK will stay
0:05:06 > 0:05:11in the single market.
0:05:11 > 0:05:11Really?
0:05:11 > 0:05:12Yeah.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13I think they'll concede open borders.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17Have you had any clue from anybody in government that that's the way
0:05:17 > 0:05:18they are heading?
0:05:18 > 0:05:18Absolutely..
0:05:18 > 0:05:20And look, I called the referendum wrong, as well.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23So that is just wishful thinking on your part.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24I don't think it is.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26I think it is the more practical reality.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30Remember, most of the UK population in the referendum were sold a lie.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33The lie was that you could leave the European Union but stay
0:05:33 > 0:05:34in the single market.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36It's now becoming quite clear you can't.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39You are either going to stay in the single market,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42in which case you will obey European regulations and you will concede
0:05:42 > 0:05:44free movement of people, which I think ultimately
0:05:44 > 0:05:48is what is going to happen, or you leave, in which case the UK
0:05:48 > 0:05:51economy is going to suffer a very long and very dark recession.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Let's suppose that actually it's a hard Brexit, as they say,
0:05:54 > 0:05:57and that we accept the WTO basic trade arrangements with Europe
0:05:57 > 0:06:00from the point of view of the UK and nothing more.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03At that point, would you have to seriously reassess your entire
0:06:03 > 0:06:04operation in the UK?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Again, it's hard to know, Stephen, because it depends
0:06:07 > 0:06:09on what the UK does with open skies.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12If the UK leaves open skies, and it's again hard to envisage,
0:06:12 > 0:06:18you could go back to UK citizens needing visas to go on holidays
0:06:18 > 0:06:21in Spain and Italy and in Greece.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25Again, it's hard to envisage, but if they do, at the end
0:06:25 > 0:06:28of the day, the UK citizens will still want to go
0:06:28 > 0:06:32on holidays to Spain, Italy and Greece -
0:06:32 > 0:06:35it may be more expensive, it may be more cumbersome,
0:06:35 > 0:06:37they may need visas, but people will still fly.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41And the evidence of our growth over the last 30 years across post-9/11
0:06:41 > 0:06:48and wars, pestilence, is people will keep flying.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51You have got also a very specific problem about your shareholder base.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53What percentage of your shareholders are UK-based?
0:06:53 > 0:06:56We think are probably about 25% of our shareholders
0:06:56 > 0:06:56are UK nationals.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59And again, if the UK leaves open skies, it looks...
0:06:59 > 0:07:03In theory, you may have to to treat the UK shareholders as non-EU
0:07:03 > 0:07:04shareholders, like American shareholders.
0:07:04 > 0:07:05Of course you would.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07And force them off the register.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10But the corollary of that is BA, IAG, will also have to separate
0:07:10 > 0:07:11BA from Iberia.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13They won't be able to own each other.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15It will cause chaos within the airline industry,
0:07:15 > 0:07:18which is why again it's almost hard to envisage that hard Brexit
0:07:18 > 0:07:20will actually be the outcome.
0:07:20 > 0:07:26Again, because even if it is...
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Frankly, the decision being made upon the interests of businesses
0:07:29 > 0:07:31like yours is a political decision.
0:07:31 > 0:07:31I understand.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34But the political decision is based on the assumption that you can
0:07:34 > 0:07:35control your borders.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38Look, we had a hard border between the north of Ireland
0:07:38 > 0:07:41and the Republic of Ireland for 30 years, with British Army
0:07:41 > 0:07:44troops manning the border, and they were never able
0:07:44 > 0:07:45to secure the border.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49So this idea that the politicians are selling in the UK that you can
0:07:49 > 0:07:51control your borders, if only we leave the single market,
0:07:51 > 0:07:55A, is absurd, B, is undeliverable, and C, I'm not sure when the real
0:07:55 > 0:07:58reality dawns of the UK electorate and UK politicians that you can't
0:07:58 > 0:08:03stay in the single market, I think they'll change their minds.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07A final specific on your business, then I want to broaden it out,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10I think I am right in saying that this year you are getting
0:08:10 > 0:08:1150 new planes.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12Yep, every year.
0:08:12 > 0:08:12Major investment.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15How many of those planes, given what you are seeing happening
0:08:15 > 0:08:19in the UK, are you actually going to put in the UK?
0:08:19 > 0:08:21Originally, Stephen, we were going to put about 12
0:08:21 > 0:08:23of those aircraft in the UK in 2017.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Now where going to put none in the UK.
0:08:26 > 0:08:26None?
0:08:26 > 0:08:26None.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28They will all be based at European airports.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Now, some will still fly back into the UK.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36We will add some flights to probably UK regional airports.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40We are not growing at Stansted, we are not growing in Manchester,
0:08:40 > 0:08:42but we are growing in places like Edinburgh and Glasgow.
0:08:42 > 0:08:43So some capacity.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46You have characterised the Brexit vote as madness stop do you take
0:08:46 > 0:08:49some responsibility for it, and in that I mean...
0:08:49 > 0:08:51I've known you for a long time.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54I was there in 2004 in Brussels when you came out of a meeting
0:08:54 > 0:08:56with the European Commission describing the European Commission
0:08:56 > 0:08:59as, this is a direct quote, the evil Empire.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02And every year since you have taken every opportunity to slag off
0:09:02 > 0:09:05Brussels, slag off the institutions of the European Union and suggests
0:09:05 > 0:09:07that it is deeply dysfunctional.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09It can't be any surprise to you that the British,
0:09:09 > 0:09:17hearing what you say about the EU, decides to walk away from it.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22I think it was a huge surprise.
0:09:22 > 0:09:28Firstly, we have been consistently critical of the,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I think, the corruption, the kind of bad policies that come
0:09:31 > 0:09:33out of the European Commission in particular.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36But we have consistently over 20 years been a singular advocate
0:09:36 > 0:09:39of the single market.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41In fact, we've campaigned twice in Ireland.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Forgive me, but why wouldn't the British people, listening
0:09:43 > 0:09:46to you describe the commission, the executive arm of the EU,
0:09:46 > 0:09:50as the evil Empire, why would they want to stay in this evil
0:09:50 > 0:09:50Empire?
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Because I think you've only got two choices and,
0:09:53 > 0:09:54frankly, I supported David Cameron's position,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57which was, you stay in and reform from within.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59There is a significant desire to see reform and efficiency
0:09:59 > 0:10:00within the European Union.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03You go back to the days of Margaret Thatcher,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06when Europe was a single market and it was a competitive
0:10:06 > 0:10:06single market.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09It's brought about low fare air travel, which is just one
0:10:09 > 0:10:11of the great things it has delivered.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15What has happened in recent years, it has moved away from advocating
0:10:15 > 0:10:17a single markets towards this kind of political union,
0:10:17 > 0:10:19which nobody, frankly, supports.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21Which suggests that, in many ways, to many people,
0:10:21 > 0:10:22it is unreformable.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26Only a month ago, you made a big noise here in Ireland by telling
0:10:26 > 0:10:28the Irish government, it your best advice,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32to tell the EU to F off over an EU ruling about tax and Apple.
0:10:32 > 0:10:32Yeah.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Again, it's about a sort of tone you adopt, a responsibility that
0:10:35 > 0:10:38you've taken upon yourself to constantly tell the public that
0:10:38 > 0:10:41the EU and all of its institutions are deeply dysfunctional, are not
0:10:42 > 0:10:57operating in their interests.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Again, it's a selective review of history.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02I've campaigned actively on the two Irish referendums on Nice
0:11:02 > 0:11:05and on Lisbon in favour of a Yes vote in Ireland.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08I campaigned actively in the Brexit referendum in the UK in favour
0:11:08 > 0:11:11of a Yes vote, because I believe in the single market,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14I believe in the European project as a single market,
0:11:14 > 0:11:16but yes, the Commission has not delivered.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19It will continue to fail unless we who are within that stay
0:11:19 > 0:11:29in and reform.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Let's move on to a very important but different decision facing the UK
0:11:32 > 0:11:36Government, that is where to put a new runway to serve London
0:11:36 > 0:11:37and the south-east of England.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40You've taken a view on it, you've expressed an opinion
0:11:40 > 0:11:43that they ought to be building more than one new runway.
0:11:43 > 0:11:43Sure.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47All the noises we get and I should say we are recording this interview
0:11:47 > 0:11:49before the latest government statement on this, but all
0:11:49 > 0:11:52the noises we get is that they favour going ahead
0:11:52 > 0:11:54with a third runway at Heathrow.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56If that's the decision, what is your view of it?
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Well, firstly, we are recording this just after they announced
0:11:59 > 0:12:03that they are going to dither and fudge for at least another 12
0:12:03 > 0:12:04months, which is a shame.
0:12:04 > 0:12:05They call it necessary consultation.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07But the bottom line is...
0:12:07 > 0:12:09They've been consulting on this thing for 15 years.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11They keep kicking the can down the road.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15The bottom line is one runway in the south-east is not sufficient.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Even if you approve Heathrow runway three, it won't be delivered
0:12:18 > 0:12:19for another ten years.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22It would be fall before it's even completed, and that assumes
0:12:22 > 0:12:24you can move the M25, or tunnel under the M25.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27The way to address this, and the UK is particularly bad
0:12:27 > 0:12:29at dealing with these big infrastructure projects,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32whether it is wrong ways or HS2, is to actually let
0:12:32 > 0:12:33the market deliver.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35You have three competing airports in London.
0:12:35 > 0:12:36Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38Pretty good road infrastructure, pretty good services there.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Allow each airport to build another runway.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44I fail to understand what the UK Government is doing in the middle
0:12:44 > 0:12:45of the decision on providing infrastructure.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47Let the three airports provide their own runways,
0:12:47 > 0:12:49if they want to build another runway.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53The only way to solve this problem for the long-term in the UK
0:12:53 > 0:12:56is to not permit one but actually to authorise three additional
0:12:56 > 0:12:59runways in the south-east, while at Heathrow, one at Gatwick,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02one at Stansted, because it is only by providing that competing
0:13:02 > 0:13:13development you'll keep the cost of that runway infrastructure down.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16You have always, as long as I've been talking to you,
0:13:16 > 0:13:18had these massive and ambitious expansion plans for Ryanair.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22You once said, in 30 years' time I hope Ryanair won't be carrying 100
0:13:22 > 0:13:24plus million passengers, I hope we will be doing
0:13:24 > 0:13:25ten times that.
0:13:25 > 0:13:30Which logic would suggest would be 1 billion passengers a year.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33It must have been a very fine bottle of wine!
0:13:33 > 0:13:36When our you going to realise that actually just constant expansion,
0:13:36 > 0:13:38constant growth, cannot be maintained?
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Yes, you're right, over the longer term, but certainly we have a plan
0:13:41 > 0:13:45and we have aircraft orders in place now to grow to 180 million
0:13:45 > 0:13:48passengers over the next eight years.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49And Ryanair will carry on...
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Is there a part of view that's actually beginning to regret some
0:13:53 > 0:13:54of that ambitious, 10-year plan?
0:13:54 > 0:13:56Do you really need all those aircraft?
0:13:56 > 0:13:56Yes.
0:13:56 > 0:13:57Because the prices we're charging...
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Demand for Ryanair services all across Europe, in the UK,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02in Ireland, all across Europe, has never been higher.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05The message hasn't changed, that's clear, but, actually...
0:14:05 > 0:14:05Prices have.
0:14:05 > 0:14:11They have come down.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15I will tell you what else has changed, and you would acknowledge
0:14:15 > 0:14:16it, I guess, your tone.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19You had to change the way you approach to the customer
0:14:19 > 0:14:21because you used to be proud of being, well,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24let's say - you said it yourself - cheap and nasty.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28And you said, we've got to change and be cheap and cheerful.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32How hard is it for you to be cheap and cheerful at the same time?
0:14:32 > 0:14:34I think it's been a learning process.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37I think that the last 15 or 20 years in Ryanair,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40we were obsessed with having the lowest costs, and it almost
0:14:40 > 0:14:42didn't matter how you treated the passengers as long
0:14:42 > 0:14:43as it was cheap..
0:14:43 > 0:14:43Absolutely.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47And we passengers felt it every time we got anywhere near your airline.
0:14:47 > 0:14:47True.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Except the passenger numbers kept rising.
0:14:49 > 0:14:55I think we should have rear lies to earlier than we did,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58-- I think we should have realised earlier than we did,
0:14:58 > 0:15:00actually passengers want a bit more service.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01They are not...
0:15:01 > 0:15:03They want more than just the basic safe on-time flights.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06We should have given allocated seating, we should be nicer
0:15:06 > 0:15:08when problems arise.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10We should address some of the passengers' concerns.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13And we are working very hard to do that.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15It's interesting that you say, given the Brexit climate
0:15:15 > 0:15:18and the uncertainty in the UK, we are going to pivot much
0:15:18 > 0:15:21more our European-wide operations - that's where our expansion lies
0:15:21 > 0:15:23and where our future lies.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26The trouble is, the way you run your airline runs counter
0:15:26 > 0:15:28to so many of the sort of social and economic policies
0:15:28 > 0:15:32and regulations that are in place in key European markets for you.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34You are being taken to court in France.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38In fact, you lost a big court case in France and you are appealing it.
0:15:38 > 0:15:39We lost the local case.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42You are in huge trouble with the German tax authorities,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45because of the way you claim the pilots working for you are
0:15:45 > 0:15:48self-employed and the German authorities say they are not.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50You've got a problem that your values are not
0:15:50 > 0:15:51European values.
0:15:51 > 0:15:51Not true.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54Firstly, we are the fastest-growing airline in Europe.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56What's not true about what I just said?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59We are the fastest-growing airline in Europe, so last year we carried
0:15:59 > 0:16:02106 million passengers, this year 119 million passengers.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03So the consumers of Europe supporters.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Let me deal with a couple of issues.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09We are being attacked by the French government over employment of pilots
0:16:09 > 0:16:10and cabin crew in France.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13We don't employ any pilots or cabin crew in France.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17All of our pilots, all of our cabin crew were Irish, employed on Irish
0:16:17 > 0:16:19contracts, flying Irish aircraft.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21And the French courts believe that they are fundamentally
0:16:21 > 0:16:27working in France.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30And yet they are not.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32The way you arrange it is unacceptable.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33There is no evidence to support that.
0:16:33 > 0:16:41The evidence is that the courts have decided against you.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43The local French court in Aix-en-Provence,
0:16:43 > 0:16:44which we will be appealing.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46The European Commission supports our stance,
0:16:46 > 0:16:49as does the Irish government, which requires us as an Irish
0:16:49 > 0:16:52airline that all of our employees flying on Irish registered aircraft,
0:16:52 > 0:16:54which are legally defined as Ireland, must pay
0:16:54 > 0:16:55their taxes in Ireland.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57The German case is interesting too.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00The German cases have already said that Ryanair is not involved
0:17:00 > 0:17:01in the German cases.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03There are a number of pilots who are employed...
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Who do they fly for?
0:17:05 > 0:17:06Who are employed by Ryanair.
0:17:06 > 0:17:06Thank you.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10Who have paid their taxes in Ireland, sought a refund of taxes
0:17:10 > 0:17:12in Ireland, because they were resident in Germany,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14and then didn't pay their taxes in Germany.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16The Germans have looked at the working conditions...
0:17:16 > 0:17:19We are cooperating with the German authorities who have publicly
0:17:19 > 0:17:22confirmed that Ryanair is not the subject of these investigations.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24We are fully tax compliant in every country in Europe,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26but there is a dispute in France.
0:17:26 > 0:17:27Yes.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29But these pilots in Germany are claiming the conditions
0:17:29 > 0:17:31they work under our actually dangerous.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33They've talked about the prevalence of pilots and copilots
0:17:33 > 0:17:35under your working conditions who doze off mid-flight
0:17:35 > 0:17:38as well as make increased errors as a result of fatigue...
0:17:38 > 0:17:38Untrue.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41..Because of the contract you impose upon them.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Those are false claims made by German pilots' unions.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45The contracts we impose upon our Ryanair pilots,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49under which, by the way, by law in Europe you cannot fly more
0:17:49 > 0:17:52than 900 hours in the year, which is an average of 18 hours
0:17:52 > 0:17:56a week, for which you get paid up to 150,000 euros a year -
0:17:56 > 0:18:00which is why we have a waiting list of over 3000 qualified pilots
0:18:00 > 0:18:02who want to join and fly with Ryanair.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Now, in Germany, you have the German pilots' unions, none of whom have
0:18:06 > 0:18:06members in Ryanair...
0:18:06 > 0:18:09Who would say, and I am quoting them directly,
0:18:09 > 0:18:11these contracts throw pilots working conditions back into the 19th
0:18:11 > 0:18:14century and play no part in our society today.
0:18:14 > 0:18:15It just comes to this point.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19You can say there's a justification for it, I'm just saying to you...
0:18:19 > 0:18:22I didn't say it was a justification for it.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24I said we employ more than 3000 pilots.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27There is a waiting list of pilots who want to join Ryanair.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30Before we end, I want to broaden the horizon from your business
0:18:30 > 0:18:34and the way you operate in Europe to a bigger thought about Ireland.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Now, you are one of Ireland's richest, most successful
0:18:36 > 0:18:37businessmen.
0:18:37 > 0:18:39You're a sort of poster boy for Irish economic success over
0:18:39 > 0:18:40the last generation.
0:18:40 > 0:18:41You are.
0:18:41 > 0:18:42You can laugh, but you are.
0:18:42 > 0:18:43But, right now...
0:18:43 > 0:18:47And much hated here in Ireland, hut nevertheless...
0:18:47 > 0:18:48Oh, I know that too, believe me.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52An Irish former Prime Minister said just the other day that,
0:18:52 > 0:18:55in his opinion, the fallout from Brexit - and as we have
0:18:55 > 0:18:58discussed, it hasn't happened yet, but it is going to happen -
0:18:58 > 0:19:01represents the biggest challenge to Ireland and the whole Irish
0:19:01 > 0:19:02economy in 50 years.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04Do you think he is right?
0:19:04 > 0:19:07No, I think we worry overly about the impact of Brexiteer.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10Look, we're longer tied our currency to sterling, but it's clear the UK
0:19:10 > 0:19:14is one of Ireland's biggest trading partners.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17I think the real serious issue's over the border between the Republic
0:19:17 > 0:19:19and the North of Ireland.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22And I worry about the imposition of a hard border, which I think
0:19:22 > 0:19:23is inevitable.
0:19:23 > 0:19:23Do you?
0:19:23 > 0:19:24Oh, yeah.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27One idea being floated in London is that somehow the Irish
0:19:27 > 0:19:30authorities will take on board the border duties that one might
0:19:30 > 0:19:34have seen at a hard border with Northern Ireland and actually,
0:19:34 > 0:19:37for example, entry point in Dublin airport will be policed along
0:19:37 > 0:19:40the lines and the wishes of the British Government.
0:19:40 > 0:19:45But you see there's lots of this nonsense being talked
0:19:45 > 0:19:46about in London, where they are essentially
0:19:46 > 0:19:53talking to themselves.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I think it's going to be very difficult when you have
0:19:55 > 0:19:59Boris Johnson and David Davis and Liam Fox go to Europe,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01file their Article 50 notification and are then told,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04you can have the single market, in which case you obey free movement
0:20:05 > 0:20:06of people, or out.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09And if it's out, I think there will be a hard border imposed.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12What will that do for the Republic of Ireland?
0:20:12 > 0:20:15The Republic of Ireland, we will adapt as we have always done
0:20:15 > 0:20:16over the years.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19We will continue to trade successfully with the UK,
0:20:19 > 0:20:21although it would be a much more difficult trading environment,
0:20:21 > 0:20:24and we will continue to trade successfully with Europe.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26We will adapt and we will find a way round.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30But there is no doubt in my mind that the UK economy will suffer
0:20:30 > 0:20:33a very deep and prolonged recession if they move out
0:20:33 > 0:20:34of the single market.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I think Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister here,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40believes that actually the people who suffer the most might be
0:20:40 > 0:20:41here in the Republic.
0:20:41 > 0:20:42I mean, he's talking about convening...
0:20:42 > 0:20:46I think he's calling it a civic dialogue of business leaders,
0:20:46 > 0:20:47politicians, for early November.
0:20:47 > 0:20:47As I said...
0:20:47 > 0:20:48You roll your eyes.
0:20:48 > 0:21:07Are you not interested in participating?
0:21:07 > 0:21:10Talking shops set up by politicians to talk more about these things
0:21:10 > 0:21:12are a complete and utter waste of time.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Like most business people, I just get on and deal with it -
0:21:15 > 0:21:17whatever the consequences of Brexit, we'll deal with.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20Ryanair will pivot some growth away from the UK,
0:21:20 > 0:21:21but we'll continue to grow strongly.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25I do worry though, and it is one of the reasons I was critical
0:21:25 > 0:21:28of the Irish government response to the EU Apple tax ruling,
0:21:28 > 0:21:30here you have the European Commission.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32We have sovereign - we are a sovereign state.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36We have autonomy over our tax decisions, so if the Irish decide
0:21:36 > 0:21:39to tax Apple at 12.5%, they are free to do so.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42You can't have the European Union, though, ten years after the event,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45coming along saying, oh, no, we think that was illegal state aid.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48The point I've made is, why haven't they gone to the UK
0:21:48 > 0:21:51and told them, listen, we don't like the res non-doms
0:21:51 > 0:21:55in London - we think you should be taxing all the Russian oligarchs.
0:21:55 > 0:21:56They wouldn't dream of doing that.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59So this is an example where the European Commission
0:21:59 > 0:22:02is trying to bully Ireland and Ireland needs to do more.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Rather than just appealed the decision, we need to tell
0:22:04 > 0:22:07the European Union to politely foxtrot Oscar because that's
0:22:07 > 0:22:08the only language they understand.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11It's the only language you seem to be able to use...
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Well that's a bit unfair, but nevertheless.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16When the European Union tells Ireland in a Brexit scenario,
0:22:16 > 0:22:19you must put up walls around the North of Ireland,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22you must have a hard border, Ireland needs to have a much more
0:22:22 > 0:22:24robust response with the European Commission.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27It is not in Ireland's interests and we are not going to impose some
0:22:27 > 0:22:30hard border between the North and the Republic of Ireland.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33And if the European Commission doesn't like it, they can
0:22:33 > 0:22:34go to hell.
0:22:34 > 0:22:40Well, you're not mincing your words, but to take that thought
0:22:40 > 0:22:41one stage further. but to take that thought
0:22:41 > 0:22:43Enda Kenny said recently, Brexit negotiators should be
0:22:43 > 0:22:46prepared for a prospect of a referendum on uniting Ireland,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49ie, the truth is a majority of the people of Northern Ireland
0:22:49 > 0:22:50actually voted to remain.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Do you, as an Irishman, think there is any possibility
0:22:53 > 0:22:55that this whole sort of Brexit uncertainty could,
0:22:55 > 0:22:58in the long run, be the harbinger of a debate about uniting Ireland?
0:22:58 > 0:23:00Look, I think that's a very sensitive subject.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Of course it is, but what do you think?
0:23:03 > 0:23:06We have peace in Northern Ireland for the last ten years,
0:23:06 > 0:23:08which is a phenomenal achievement on all sides.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12I don't think it is appropriate for somebody in the Republic to be
0:23:12 > 0:23:13going, we want a united Ireland.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15We want peace in Northern Ireland.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17This isn't your first appearance on HARDtalk.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20In 2009, you said this, "I think there's going to be
0:23:20 > 0:23:23a certain time in the development of Ryanair where it is appropriate
0:23:23 > 0:23:27to take me out and replace me with somebody else, and I think that
0:23:27 > 0:23:29may be in the next two or three years."
0:23:29 > 0:23:31You said that in 2009.
0:23:31 > 0:23:31Yeah.
0:23:31 > 0:23:32Well, you're still here.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Just goes to show how bad I am at predicting the future!
0:23:35 > 0:23:38So when are you going to take yourself out?
0:23:38 > 0:23:42I mean, look we have a plan for the next five years to grow
0:23:42 > 0:23:44to 180 million passengers, we have very exciting developments
0:23:44 > 0:23:47in Ryanair labs, in the digital platform, and it's a very exciting
0:23:47 > 0:23:48time in this industry.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52So I've signed up for another four years to take me too,
0:23:52 > 0:23:53I think, the end of 2018...2019.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58And I think we - I and the board - will revisit it at that stage,
0:23:58 > 0:24:01and, if the board is happy with the way I am performing,
0:24:01 > 0:24:05then who knows, they will either ask me to leave or I can stay on.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09So you will be the guy who has to cope with what ever actual Brexit
0:24:09 > 0:24:10brings to Ryanair?
0:24:10 > 0:24:14I hope so, but I am fairly sure what it will bring will be lower
0:24:14 > 0:24:16fares and many more millions of customers.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19Michael O'Leary, I am going to stop you right there before
0:24:19 > 0:24:20the advertising gets really unbearable.
0:24:20 > 0:24:21Thank you, Stephen.
0:24:21 > 0:24:22Thanks for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:22 > 0:24:23Thank you very much.
0:24:23 > 0:24:24A great pleasure.