0:00:01 > 0:00:03Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15If a chain is only as strong as its weakest link,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17then the European Union has reason to worry about Bulgaria.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Once a redoubt of the Soviet empire, Bulgaria is by many measures
0:00:21 > 0:00:23the poorest, most corrupt member of the European Union.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27It also happens to be a key player in two of the great challenges
0:00:27 > 0:00:30facing the EU - the migration crisis and the hostile
0:00:30 > 0:00:30relationship with Russia.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33My guest today is Bulgaria's Foreign Minister, Daniel Mitov.
0:00:33 > 0:00:47Can Brussels rely on Bulgaria?
0:01:15 > 0:01:16Daniel Mitov, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:16 > 0:01:16Thank you.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19I think we have to start with Europe's migration challenge.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22If we look at the response of your government, it seems
0:01:22 > 0:01:24that there is an atmosphere of panic in Sofia.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29Why?
0:01:29 > 0:01:33First, I would like to start with the fact that I found it quite
0:01:33 > 0:01:35unfair, the introduction in the very beginning.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38When it comes to weakest links, actually Bulgaria has done quite
0:01:38 > 0:01:45well in terms of protecting the external border
0:01:45 > 0:01:48of the European Union, and that has been recognised
0:01:48 > 0:01:51on so many levels both in Brussels and in our bilateral relationship
0:01:51 > 0:01:53with each and every member of the European Union.
0:01:53 > 0:01:59I wasn't measuring weakness simply by the strength of your frontier.
0:01:59 > 0:02:00There are other parameters, too.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02But let's not get stuck on that.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04That is absolutely true, but we can of course
0:02:04 > 0:02:05explore other dimensions.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07I promise you we will!
0:02:07 > 0:02:09I talk about this atmosphere of panic because your
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Interior Ministry just in very recent hours has issued an order
0:02:12 > 0:02:15activating level two in terms of the estimation of danger
0:02:15 > 0:02:17on the Bulgarian/Turkish border, and this comes under your national
0:02:17 > 0:02:23plan for emergency situations.
0:02:23 > 0:02:24Why are you ratcheting up the...?
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Very often when it comes to assessing the level of control
0:02:27 > 0:02:30over the border, there are moments in which you need to take
0:02:30 > 0:02:33into account the circumstances, and especially when it comes
0:02:33 > 0:02:34to migration and refugee pressure.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38Right now you know what is going on in Aleppo and Mosul,
0:02:38 > 0:02:46we hope that Mosul will soon be liberated, and people can return
0:02:46 > 0:02:47actually to their homes.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50But when it comes to Aleppo, the atrocities there are appalling.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52That is why we are...
0:02:52 > 0:03:01This is not panic, this is a reaction to expected events.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04But I wonder why you are expecting such an emergency, because this year
0:03:04 > 0:03:08I think the figure is roughly 16,000, the number of migrants that
0:03:08 > 0:03:09have entered your territory.
0:03:09 > 0:03:1416,000 is not insignificant for a country of 7 million.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16A lot of them were actually returned.
0:03:16 > 0:03:25We have throughout the recent last months, we have returned a lot
0:03:25 > 0:03:27of those back to Turkey, all we have actually already trying
0:03:27 > 0:03:31to trigger all those agreements between the European Union and third
0:03:31 > 0:03:41countries which require repatriation.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Because your message is clear, it is extremely negative about this
0:03:44 > 0:03:46whole issue of immigration into the European Union.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48You are building walls at a furious pace.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51You are a country which ironically after 1989 and the collapse
0:03:51 > 0:03:53of the Soviet Empire, you dismantled your frontier razor
0:03:53 > 0:03:56wire and minefields, and now here you are building walls
0:03:56 > 0:04:01like there is no tomorrow.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02Different times, different circumstances.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06We are trying to be, and we are, they responsible out of border
0:04:06 > 0:04:07of the European Union.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10We are not responsible only for our own territory control.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12We are responsible for everyone else's, and by the way,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15the facility which we are building, we are very much aware
0:04:15 > 0:04:18that it is not going to stop large numbers of people,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21but it will for sure impede the attempts of human smugglers
0:04:21 > 0:04:24and criminal groups who are trying to smuggle people
0:04:24 > 0:04:36through the Borders.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39But the fact that you have got an important strategic position does
0:04:39 > 0:04:42not justify violating and flouting international norms and human rights
0:04:42 > 0:04:42law, does it?
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I would very much disagree with this.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48You think it gives you the right, do you, to flout international normsw?
0:04:48 > 0:04:51It doesn't give us any right to flout international norms,
0:04:51 > 0:04:52but we are not.
0:04:52 > 0:04:53Why are you doing it, then?
0:04:53 > 0:04:55I am contesting exactly that.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57Bulgaria has never intentionally or in any other way
0:04:57 > 0:04:58violated any norms.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01In fact, we are living up to those norms.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06If there are individual cases which are contested,
0:05:06 > 0:05:24then we not only look at them, but there have been in the past
0:05:24 > 0:05:26people punished for violating certain types of principles.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Border guards have been accused by a whole host of independent human
0:05:29 > 0:05:32rights groups and border monitors of using excessive force.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34We saw just year ago and Afghan individual shot dead
0:05:34 > 0:05:35by your border forces.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38And your Prime Minister promised a full investigation,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41and as I understand it, the courts have dropped all charges
0:05:41 > 0:05:44against those responsible.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46First, that was clearly an incident.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49When it comes to this specific case, it was thoroughly investigated.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55Who has been punished?
0:05:55 > 0:05:57As every other case, those are investigated,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59and there are people who have been punished,
0:05:59 > 0:06:00actually, throughout the process.
0:06:00 > 0:06:08The courts dropped all charges.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10I cannot go into each and every individual case,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13but with the NGOs which you have already mentioned, we have contacts
0:06:13 > 0:06:16with them, and we investigate, and we are trying to engage
0:06:16 > 0:06:18with them for every single possible case.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20But let me tell something else here.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22The human smugglers are becoming extremely inventive.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Bulgaria has increased the penalties for human smuggling.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Bulgaria has taken full control over its external border,
0:06:27 > 0:06:29especially when it comes to Turkey.
0:06:29 > 0:06:30In coorporation with the Turkish authorities.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34I have to say here that we have very good cooperation and understanding
0:06:34 > 0:06:35on how things need to work.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38But human smuggling has become extremely inventive in ways
0:06:38 > 0:06:40to circumvent certain types of norms, and some of those
0:06:40 > 0:06:43accusations you are mentioning are actually a way for certain
0:06:43 > 0:06:46people to get status of refugees or of witnesses of certain types
0:06:46 > 0:06:49of crime in order to stay in Bulgaria and then use
0:06:50 > 0:07:02the opportunity and move onward.
0:07:02 > 0:07:03You are the Foreign Minister.
0:07:03 > 0:07:12I'm sure you care about your country's international reputation.
0:07:12 > 0:07:24Very, very much.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Then I'm sure you are concerned when the UN High Commissioner
0:07:27 > 0:07:30of Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, says things like this.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32He condemned the fact that all people entering Bulgaria
0:07:32 > 0:07:35in an irregular manner are, to use his phrase, "detained
0:07:35 > 0:07:38as a matter of course."
0:07:38 > 0:07:41"Even worse, they may be prosecuted and jailed for a year or more
0:07:41 > 0:07:43if they try to leave the country."
0:07:43 > 0:07:45He says this is not acceptable.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48He went on to say, "evidence suggests that attacks and abuses
0:07:48 > 0:07:50against migrants and refugees are rarely, if ever, punished".
0:07:50 > 0:07:53These are actually all statements which we have already created
0:07:53 > 0:07:56a framework with UNHCR which allows us to work together with them
0:07:56 > 0:07:58in order to look in every single possible case...
0:07:58 > 0:08:00So you are going to change policy?
0:08:00 > 0:08:02It is a very hard balance.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Because as we speak today, there are hundreds of people
0:08:05 > 0:08:07demonstrating in one of your detention camps right
0:08:07 > 0:08:10on the border demanding the right to get out of your country
0:08:10 > 0:08:11and go to Serbia.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Look, there are rules, and we are living up to those rules.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18When it comes to how to treat refugees and economic migrants,
0:08:18 > 0:08:19the distinction needs to be clearly made.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22Towards the refugees we have certain type of obligations,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26and that is why the European Union pays a lot of money in Turkey,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29in Jordan, in Lebanon and in other third countries where we need
0:08:29 > 0:08:32to assure that the conditions for the refugees for them
0:08:32 > 0:08:35to develop, to get a job, to send their children to school,
0:08:35 > 0:08:36are in place.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39But when it comes to economic migration, that is a very,
0:08:39 > 0:08:53very different story.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57His point is it is not right to detain people in essence
0:08:57 > 0:08:58as prisoners for more than a year.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01As I mentioned, these are already, all the statements...
0:09:01 > 0:09:04The one statement I just read to you was from September,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06so that is one month old.
0:09:06 > 0:09:11Those practices, whatever they were, are being amended exactly
0:09:11 > 0:09:12with the participation of UNHCR.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14We are working very closely with them.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18We can only take your word for that, because he criticised you only
0:09:18 > 0:09:21a month ago, so if you have changed your practices,
0:09:21 > 0:09:22we will find out.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24Criticism towards many countries around the world,
0:09:24 > 0:09:26even those who are considered champions of human rights,
0:09:26 > 0:09:40have been made recently, because in this very difficult
0:09:40 > 0:09:43situation, it is a hard balance to be sure that you respect
0:09:43 > 0:09:46the rules and the human rights of the people who arrive.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Nobody is saying this is easy, but in the end, it is about how
0:09:50 > 0:09:53you prioritise, and also it is about the tone and the values
0:09:53 > 0:09:54that underpin your policy.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57One criticism of your government would be, and it has been made
0:09:57 > 0:10:00by the Helsinki committee, which has an office in your country,
0:10:00 > 0:10:03and many other independent observers, too, that you are playing
0:10:03 > 0:10:04politics with this.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06You are stirring up, according to the Helsinki committee
0:10:06 > 0:10:08representatives, animosity toward refugees, presenting them
0:10:08 > 0:10:12as a threat to the Bulgarian public, and the reason you are doing that
0:10:12 > 0:10:15may be because your government is propped up by the Parliamentary
0:10:15 > 0:10:23support of far right political groups.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26No statements of mine or any of the Bulgarian government
0:10:26 > 0:10:29officials have been read in terms of stirring a certain type of fear
0:10:29 > 0:10:31or blame towards the refugees or anything else.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34In our public statements, we are extremely responsible,
0:10:34 > 0:10:37and there cannot be any quote from myself or anyone else that can
0:10:37 > 0:10:49confirm this statements...
0:10:49 > 0:10:51It is not just a question of quotes, is it?
0:10:51 > 0:10:53It is a question of actions.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55For example, if your government was serious about curtailing
0:10:55 > 0:10:59xenophobia and assaults on migrants, why do you not arrest and charge
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Dinko Valev, who is well-known in your country as a vigilante
0:11:02 > 0:11:05who goes round with heavily armed colleagues on their quad bikes
0:11:05 > 0:11:08trying to round up any migrants who are found in that border area
0:11:08 > 0:11:18on your territory.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21That was a phenomenon which has been already dealt with.
0:11:21 > 0:11:22The upper mentioned Dinko.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24He was called into the prosecutor's office.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26There were certain charges raised against him.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29And now vigilantes of that sort which we know are under observation
0:11:29 > 0:11:37and under surveillance.
0:11:37 > 0:11:38But they are still out there.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41That is a problem that has been dealt with.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44A British man of the far right is in the British newspapers just
0:11:44 > 0:11:46these last few days crowing about his activities
0:11:46 > 0:11:50on your territory alongside Mr Valev and others with guns
0:11:50 > 0:11:50rounding up migrants.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52It is still happening.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55I claim they might roam around forests, but they are under
0:11:55 > 0:11:57observation, and they have done nothing of the sort recently.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59My question comes back to this.
0:11:59 > 0:12:07If you look at the way he is portrayed in the Bulgarian
0:12:07 > 0:12:08media, he is described as a hero.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12If you look at the support he seems to have amongst the Bulgarian...
0:12:12 > 0:12:18I cannot be responsible for how media describes
0:12:18 > 0:12:19anyone, that's first.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21Second, the government has always condemned the actions of vigilantes
0:12:21 > 0:12:23in any country which respects itself.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25And the rule of law is the main principle.
0:12:25 > 0:12:35Actions are taken and we have taken them.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38So Mr Valev is going to face charges, is he?
0:12:38 > 0:12:41I'm not really sure at what stage right now the prosecution is.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44But he has been called into the prosecutor's office,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46and certain charges have been done against him.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48The evidence according to the Helsinki committee is that
0:12:48 > 0:12:50in public platforms, including on your media,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53he has claimed to have been involved in assault and battery,
0:12:53 > 0:12:54making death threats, unlawful detentions,
0:12:55 > 0:12:55inciting ethnic hatred.
0:12:55 > 0:13:00These are crimes in your country?
0:13:00 > 0:13:01These are crimes in my country.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05So your message to your own people is, we are going to deal
0:13:05 > 0:13:17with Mr Valev and all of these so-called vigilantes?
0:13:17 > 0:13:20We are, and we are dealing with them, and that is why
0:13:20 > 0:13:22they are under surveillance right now.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24They cannot do what they have done in the past.
0:13:24 > 0:13:31Let's talk about a different aspect of the same concern that I have
0:13:31 > 0:13:33quoted various independent monitoring groups is having
0:13:33 > 0:13:35about your country, and that is xenophobic populism.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38One other element of this according for example
0:13:38 > 0:13:40to Amnesty International's Europe director, John Dalhuisen,
0:13:40 > 0:13:44is your country's determination, it seems to take on those women
0:13:44 > 0:13:47who want to wear the full veil in public in Bulgaria.
0:13:47 > 0:13:53Would you accept that that is a part of this same problem?
0:13:53 > 0:13:54I don't think so.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58This is a decision that has been taken in the Parliament not so long
0:13:58 > 0:14:01time ago, and these type of cultural expressions are not traditional
0:14:01 > 0:14:06for the country, and on the basis of that...
0:14:06 > 0:14:08They are traditional for a certain number of Muslims.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And on the basis of that we have taken this decision.
0:14:11 > 0:14:31The Parliament has deliberated on that with quite wide majority.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34In the light of this particular quote from the Europe director
0:14:34 > 0:14:37of Amnesty International, he says women in Bulgaria should be
0:14:37 > 0:14:41free to dress as they please and to wear the burqa or the niqab
0:14:41 > 0:14:43as an expression of their identity or beliefs.
0:14:43 > 0:14:44What's your personal view about that?
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Can you agree that this is a European debate in general.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50We can see this type of phenomenon in France, we can see
0:14:51 > 0:14:52it in other countries.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56That is a worldwide...
0:14:56 > 0:14:59Sorry, not a worldwide but a European wide debate for sure.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02When it comes to traditional ways of expressing religious pertinence,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05Bulgaria is one of those countries where Muslims and Christians have
0:15:05 > 0:15:07lived for centuries together without any problem,
0:15:07 > 0:15:08and without using burqas.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Which makes one wonder why your government is now
0:15:11 > 0:15:14so determined to take on this small section of your population
0:15:14 > 0:15:19who want to wear...
0:15:19 > 0:15:21The burqas have never been a traditional expression
0:15:21 > 0:15:22of our Muslim populations.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26And your view is you have every right to ensure that no woman
0:15:26 > 0:15:28is allowed to go on the street in public wearing...?
0:15:28 > 0:15:32It is not about women in this case.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35It is about everyone who covers their face in public.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39So the target is not women who want to wear burqas in general.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41The whole philosophy of what the Parliament has voted
0:15:41 > 0:15:45is covering your face in public is unacceptable.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49I suppose underpinning a lot of the questions I am
0:15:49 > 0:15:52asking you is searching for Bulgaria's European identity
0:15:52 > 0:15:55right now, and Bulgaria's values.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57We don't have to search for that.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01We have it.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03We have been Europe always.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Let's talk a little more, then, in broad terms,
0:16:05 > 0:16:06about where Bulgaria sits.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09For example, in the EU.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12You obviously are here in London and you are observing
0:16:12 > 0:16:15what the British people have decided to do, which is get out
0:16:15 > 0:16:17of the European Union.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20You in Bulgaria, I think it is fair to say, are on the
0:16:20 > 0:16:21periphery of the EU.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24You are not in the Schengen, travel area.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27You are not of course in the euro and the eurozone.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30You do feel and look like a country that is very much
0:16:30 > 0:16:32on the edge of the EU.
0:16:32 > 0:16:32Is that problematic?
0:16:32 > 0:16:34Geographically, that is a fact.
0:16:34 > 0:16:41When it comes to levels of integration in the European Union,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44of course we do have still a lot to do.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Eurozone is one of our goals, becoming part of the eurozone.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50When it comes to Schengen, yes, we are negotiating right now,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53and we hope that soon at least the decision will be made
0:16:53 > 0:17:00to let Bulgaria and remain here in the Schengen zone when it
0:17:00 > 0:17:01comes to air and maritime borders.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05But you know that a lot of nations, I am looking at recent
0:17:05 > 0:17:07statements from Finland, the Netherlands, they don't think
0:17:07 > 0:17:08you are anywhere near ready.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10In terms of your quality of governance...
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I'm not really sure where those statements come from,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16but when it comes to our negotiation process, we are at least sure
0:17:16 > 0:17:20that we are not only ready, we are more than ready to join
0:17:20 > 0:17:23the Schengen space when it comes to a borders and maritime borders.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27When it comes to land borders, there could be a bit of a longer
0:17:27 > 0:17:31process, because right now, and this is important to mention,
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Bulgaria was one of those countries, and actually the first country
0:17:34 > 0:17:37probably which introduced a certain type of shift of philosophy when it
0:17:37 > 0:17:40comes to the European Union and how we should perceive ourselves
0:17:40 > 0:17:41in the future.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44The European Union needs to perceive itself as one whole with external
0:17:44 > 0:17:47borders which need to be guarded and protected together with
0:17:47 > 0:17:49the effort of all EU member states.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52This is much more cost-effective, and much more secure,
0:17:52 > 0:17:56because if we managed to do that, everyone else in the heart
0:17:56 > 0:18:00of the European Union can feel safe.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03But it comes back to what I said at the very beginning
0:18:03 > 0:18:04in my introduction.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Many in the European Union, many member states and indeed many
0:18:07 > 0:18:10people in Brussels see you as a weak link because of your endemic
0:18:10 > 0:18:12corruption, your very poor record of governance and,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16of course, your very weak economy.
0:18:16 > 0:18:21But there is another factor, too.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23You have traditionally and still today seem to be something
0:18:23 > 0:18:26of a split personality country in that you look to Brussels,
0:18:26 > 0:18:31of course, you are a full member of the EU, but you also have a very
0:18:31 > 0:18:32close relationship with Russia.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34And that continues.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38Well, that is a bit of an interesting statement,
0:18:38 > 0:18:40which I would like to challenge.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43So first, when it comes to the corruption you mention,
0:18:43 > 0:18:45we don't run away from the problems.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48We need to continue with our judicial reform.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51We need to continue fighting corruption.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54But that is valid for a lot of other countries, even old members
0:18:54 > 0:18:56of the European Union.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00Second, in the recent years, in the last couple of years,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Bulgaria has created a really good record when it comes to fight
0:19:04 > 0:19:08against smuggling of different goods, especially when it comes
0:19:08 > 0:19:12to illegal alcohol and cigarettes.
0:19:12 > 0:19:20That has added up to our coffers more than 3 billion leva.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24Which means that we have created a special unit
0:19:24 > 0:19:25which deals with that.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27So where the corruption comes from, it comes from illegal
0:19:27 > 0:19:28practices like that.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31You make the case that you are tackling corruption.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34Let's take that as a given, because we don't have so much time,
0:19:34 > 0:19:37and I do want to get onto this point about Russia.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39And that is one very important point.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42First, Bulgaria has always supported the sanctions against Russia when it
0:19:42 > 0:19:45comes to them being linked of course to the full implementation
0:19:45 > 0:19:46of the Minsk agreement.
0:19:46 > 0:19:47Point one.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49I have already mentioned the atrocities in Aleppo.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52Our Prime Minister a couple of days ago said there are more
0:19:52 > 0:19:55important things than an economic relationship.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56Human life stands above everything.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59If you are sending a message to Moscow, let me get
0:19:59 > 0:20:01you to clarify.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04Your president recently made a statement that called
0:20:04 > 0:20:07the big stir in Bulgaria.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10He described Russia as a nationalist, aggressive state
0:20:10 > 0:20:14ruled by a president who sees Europe as an opponent not a partner.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16Many Bulgarians castigated him for saying that.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18Here is your opportunity as Foreign Minister to say,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20do you agree with your president's words?
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Whatever the president has said, I stand 100% behind that.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29So you see Mr Putin, too, as an opponent not a partner,
0:20:29 > 0:20:32and you see him as supervising a nationalist aggressive state?
0:20:32 > 0:20:35We have always tried to build an equal partnership with Russia
0:20:35 > 0:20:40on the basis of mutual respect.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42Unfortunately in recent years, not only towards us but also
0:20:42 > 0:20:45towards the whole European Union, this is not happening.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48What has been challenged, and I will ask...
0:20:48 > 0:20:52The reason I am pushing you on this is the president is about to leave
0:20:52 > 0:20:56office, and you are having an election for a new president,
0:20:56 > 0:21:00and the socialist candidate, one of the two leading candidates,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02says that he doesn't believe in sanctions.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04He wants a much closer relationship with Russia.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07That's the danger of the selection, because we might have someone which,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10or who is not capable of understanding what is going on.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13What I'm saying to you is Bulgaria is clearly split right now.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16A very substantial chunk of your population wants a close
0:21:16 > 0:21:17relationship with Moscow.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20That is a fair assessment, and this government is fighting
0:21:20 > 0:21:24exactly to make a clear picture of what is going on in the world
0:21:24 > 0:21:27and why we are supporting the sanctions on the one hand
0:21:27 > 0:21:30but also to describe what is going on, and I would plead
0:21:30 > 0:21:32for a little bit of time here.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34First, the world has divided, it is already divided
0:21:34 > 0:21:35in 19th-century terms.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39On one hand there are the liberal democracies, and on the other hand,
0:21:39 > 0:21:41absolutist, authoritarian regimes which are basically challenging
0:21:41 > 0:21:44the liberal democracies.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47And you see Putin's Russia is one of those?
0:21:47 > 0:21:50I see a lot of those.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53But the problem you have, Foreign Minister, is you are
0:21:53 > 0:21:57a liberal voice in your government, but there are many who see
0:21:57 > 0:21:59the nature of the economic ties between Russia and Bulgaria
0:21:59 > 0:22:02and feel that you are going to lose this argument.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Let me just quote you before we finish.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Mr Pyotr Tolstoy, a Russian MP, very loud voice in the Russian
0:22:07 > 0:22:11media, and he said recently, we will just buy out the entire
0:22:11 > 0:22:11Bulgaria.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Half of its coastline, he said, already belongs to us,
0:22:14 > 0:22:15and that is the truth...
0:22:15 > 0:22:18That is offensive, first, and second, every single party
0:22:18 > 0:22:20in the Bulgarian political spectrum has reacted to this and has
0:22:20 > 0:22:27condemned those words.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30When it comes to energy, the vast wealth that the Russians
0:22:30 > 0:22:32hold inside your country, including property, the Russians
0:22:32 > 0:22:35have you round the neck.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38That is somewhat of a fair assessment, but I have to say,
0:22:38 > 0:22:41Bulgaria is doing a lot when it comes to diversifying
0:22:41 > 0:22:42its sources of energy.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Everyone knows that Bulgaria is almost 100% dependent on Russian
0:22:45 > 0:22:48gas, that is why we are building the interconnections with Greece,
0:22:48 > 0:22:53with Romania, we are trying to invest in the LNG terminals.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57But given that reality, how can you tell me that
0:22:57 > 0:23:00within the EU and its debate about how to handle Russia,
0:23:00 > 0:23:04you are going to be anything other than a country that in the end wants
0:23:04 > 0:23:06good relations with Moscow?
0:23:06 > 0:23:09We have proven that we can stand the ground of the European values
0:23:09 > 0:23:12and the European way of thinking on how to handle
0:23:12 > 0:23:14situations like that.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17Because what happened was a brutal dismantlement of the international
0:23:17 > 0:23:20law and order by seizing of part of an independent, sovereign
0:23:20 > 0:23:23neighbouring country in the case of the annexation of the Crimea.
0:23:23 > 0:23:24And then destabilising eastern Ukraine.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26If we let this go without consequences,
0:23:26 > 0:23:28there will be other countries, revisionist countries,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31which will think that they can do the same, and repair some kind
0:23:31 > 0:23:49of historical injustice.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51A very interesting point.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54We are going to end the interview with just a straight yes/no answer
0:23:54 > 0:23:56from you if we may.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59If the Socialist candidate, who wants a much closer relationship
0:23:59 > 0:24:02with Moscow, wins the Bulgarian presidency, will your Prime Minister
0:24:02 > 0:24:04and where you quit?
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Will it be the end of this government?
0:24:07 > 0:24:09I will stand my ground, and I'm absolutely sure that is
0:24:09 > 0:24:11valid for the Prime Minister.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13Daniel Mitov, we have to end there.
0:24:13 > 0:24:14Thanks for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:14 > 0:24:20Thank you.
0:24:39 > 0:24:40Hello there.