:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk from Dublin. I am Stephen Sackur. This building,
:00:20. > :00:24.the GPO, is intimately connected with Ireland's long struggle against
:00:25. > :00:29.British rule. In recent times, of course, that struggle focused on
:00:30. > :00:42.Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom after the
:00:43. > :00:46.Republic got its independence. My guest is a Dubliner who joined the
:00:47. > :00:49.IRA as a gunman and a bomb builder. Remarkably, he has become a top
:00:50. > :00:51.lawyer in Dublin. A remarkable story. How does Kieran Conway
:00:52. > :01:12.justify his past? THEME PLAYS. Kieran Conway, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:13. > :01:17.We are going to be talking a lot about your past. And as you sit here
:01:18. > :01:22.in Dublin today, I just wonder whether you feel very connected to
:01:23. > :01:27.your past, or whether it feels like another land with which you have
:01:28. > :01:33.left entirely? No, it is another country. It really is. The war is
:01:34. > :01:43.over. I don't really even think about it or have nightmares. I was
:01:44. > :01:48.involved in various activities. Know I am a defence lawyer in Dublin and
:01:49. > :01:56.my life is a million times better than it was in the 70s and 80s. Was
:01:57. > :02:01.that break instant? You quit the IRA... It happened on the night of
:02:02. > :02:04.the Downing Street declaration. The assembly of the British Prime
:02:05. > :02:11.Minister and the Irish Prime Minister. Which, in essence, was the
:02:12. > :02:17.signal that the leadership of the IRA had decided to go down the path
:02:18. > :02:27.of compromise. Insofar as they were saying that there would never be a
:02:28. > :02:31.united Ireland without a consensus. There would never be a united
:02:32. > :02:38.Ireland, certainly in my lifetime, as a result of that. I accepted
:02:39. > :02:46.that. Did you leave the IRA with fury in your heart? Not with fury.
:02:47. > :02:50.But a sense of inevitability. I felt myself it was time for the war to
:02:51. > :02:58.stop. We had clearly been bitten by the British. -- beaten. Volunteers
:02:59. > :03:05.had been killed. So it was a sense of defeat? Oh, yes. But you weren't
:03:06. > :03:10.allowed to say that and talk in a defeatist manner. You would have
:03:11. > :03:16.been in serious trouble. Rewind a long wait now and go back to a young
:03:17. > :03:22.Kieran Conway. You were a middle-class child and were set to
:03:23. > :03:25.go to university and for a comfortable Irish life. Yet you took
:03:26. > :03:34.an extraordinary decision. You were determined to join the IRA. Why?
:03:35. > :03:39.Well, I went to university in 1968, the autumn of 68, against a backdrop
:03:40. > :03:44.of student reforms all over the world, especially in France, and to
:03:45. > :03:52.a lesser extent, the UK. Also the US. The Vietnam War, South Africa,
:03:53. > :03:58.so on. And, umm, although why did not join anything in the first year,
:03:59. > :04:06.I depart in many protest. In 1969, Catholic areas were attacked by a
:04:07. > :04:12.combination of RUC, the police force in the north, and loyalists, and
:04:13. > :04:20.many, many houses were burnt down and people were killed and injured.
:04:21. > :04:24.The IRA at the time was not in a good state. But they defended those
:04:25. > :04:30.areas as best they could with small numbers. That led directly to the
:04:31. > :04:36.birth of the provisionals, those are satisfied with the leadership and
:04:37. > :04:43.direction the IRA was taking. They broke away. They recruited. And I
:04:44. > :04:51.eventually joins them. I can see how in that period of 1969,
:04:52. > :04:57.revolutionary fervour in campuses around the world, I can see how you
:04:58. > :05:02.got swept up in that. You were a radical socialist. Idea that. But
:05:03. > :05:06.the determination you had to go to Belfast and even to go to England,
:05:07. > :05:12.to actually join an underground secret military organisation where
:05:13. > :05:17.you knew, and actually sort out, the opportunity to use guns, to consider
:05:18. > :05:25.planting bombs, to commit acts of violence. -- sought. That is a fact
:05:26. > :05:31.of a step appeal it was clear a situation had appeared in Ireland.
:05:32. > :05:38.-- heck of a stop. Many people had done it. But that was a lot of talk
:05:39. > :05:42.for many. You must have been prepared, even as a young man of 20,
:05:43. > :05:49.to consider killing people. Absolutely. I accepted that as part
:05:50. > :05:52.of the price of it. The price of joining the IRA. People were
:05:53. > :05:56.definitely going to be killed. And you were going to do it? Yes, I was
:05:57. > :06:04.quite repaired to do it, yeah. You went to England? I went to England
:06:05. > :06:11.the very next day. I guess what I am seeking to understand is how you
:06:12. > :06:15.reacted to your first operations, because, I know, in England, you are
:06:16. > :06:20.asked, and indeed, you were enthusiastically a part of, armed
:06:21. > :06:26.robbery, to raise funds for the IRA. My first IRA operations were all
:06:27. > :06:31.robberies We were told we would be not claimed by the IRA in the event
:06:32. > :06:37.of our arrest. You found that easy, too much into a bank and wave a gun
:06:38. > :06:42.around and tell people to get on the ground? Yeah. After the first couple
:06:43. > :06:48.of raids I was actually put in charge of the active service units
:06:49. > :06:52.over there. I was promoted quickly. What about bombing? No, we didn't do
:06:53. > :06:56.any bombing in England in those days. The bombing came later. But
:06:57. > :07:02.you learned, whether it was in Northern Ireland, or were over, you
:07:03. > :07:07.were learning it. I was trained in eight Midland city. Back in Ireland
:07:08. > :07:10.I attended two training camps. Then my unit was caught after a
:07:11. > :07:15.particular armed robberies. They were all. I knew Scotland Yard were
:07:16. > :07:20.after me. I was coincidence Ryback in Ireland at the time. And it meant
:07:21. > :07:29.that the leadership were kind of stuck with me. It drove me mad. Then
:07:30. > :07:33.I worked with the IRA. You have written extensively about your
:07:34. > :07:38.experiences with the IRA. You have never, it seems to me, the entirely
:07:39. > :07:43.straightforward about the violence you were involved in. Did you kill
:07:44. > :07:48.people? Umm, put it this way, I mean, this is the truth, the only
:07:49. > :07:54.people that I ever fired on were a British soldiers, British soldiers
:07:55. > :08:01.did die when I was present... And firing at them? Yeah. But I cannot
:08:02. > :08:07.be sure that I killed them. So you kill them? The possibility is there.
:08:08. > :08:14.And you planted bombs? Yes, and they exploded. And you kill people? No
:08:15. > :08:19.casualties, ever. May be a half-dozen, maximum. I did a lot
:08:20. > :08:25.more shooting. An awful lot more. Maybe 100 times. And British
:08:26. > :08:32.soldiers were killed on a number of occasions. Not any more than 5-6.
:08:33. > :08:40.You were in press and, allegedly, 40 legal possession of weapons of. --
:08:41. > :08:48.imprisoned. You ended up with a lot of other IRA is prison is. And you
:08:49. > :08:52.were part of an IRA hunger strike. I was, yeah. At any parts during this
:08:53. > :08:56.time, when you were not taking on food and getting weak and were
:08:57. > :09:00.reflecting on whether your life and death are worth it for this cause,
:09:01. > :09:05.did you ever have any doubts? Not the slightest. I was totally
:09:06. > :09:11.committed. In the way that only a 21-year-old can be. How close to
:09:12. > :09:17.death did you come? No, I was a long way away from it. Though during the
:09:18. > :09:26.first hunger strike, we did not know how our bodies would fare. Billy in
:09:27. > :09:32.a Belfast prison at the time put five on a hunger strike on the first
:09:33. > :09:38.week. I was in a third report. We did only 23 days. -- cohort. I lost
:09:39. > :09:45.a couple of stone but there was no damage. I guess you met the top
:09:46. > :09:49.brass. The chief of staff... He was my sponsor, if you like. He thought
:09:50. > :09:54.highly of me and persuaded leadership outside that they should
:09:55. > :10:01.take a similar view of me. So within a month I had been given the job of
:10:02. > :10:09.Director of Intelligence. What was your responsibility? There had been
:10:10. > :10:13.no intelligence department before the split. So, I was in charge of
:10:14. > :10:20.building and intelligence department from scratch. -- an stop if from the
:10:21. > :10:26.get go, you are finding people with better resources than you had. The
:10:27. > :10:30.British authorities had various different intelligence services and
:10:31. > :10:37.police units tasked with fighting the IRA. They penetrated holes in
:10:38. > :10:43.your organisation like a sieve. Yes, they did, but in the mid- 70s I got
:10:44. > :10:48.out of jail. I left the IRA for a number of years. Mid 75. During the
:10:49. > :10:52.year I was in charge of intelligence, there was far less
:10:53. > :10:58.input race and then subsequently. There was in full trash and? There
:10:59. > :11:06.was and inform us, but nothing like the level that they penetrated the
:11:07. > :11:14.IRA in the 80s. -- infiltration. -- informers. 1984, a crucial year that
:11:15. > :11:18.raises questions to this day of your ethics and your brawl. In essence,
:11:19. > :11:28.we are talking about one major attack that the IRA launched in
:11:29. > :11:37.Birmingham in 1984. Bombs placed in pubs with old and airy IRA -- and
:11:38. > :11:43.airy people in Birmingham. Not military personnel. You are Director
:11:44. > :11:47.of Intelligence. Did you know... I didn't know anything about it.
:11:48. > :11:51.Afterwards, when I heard about the bombs, I was horrified. Shouldn't a
:11:52. > :11:57.Director of Intelligence be involved... Not really. That is not
:11:58. > :12:04.the way that the IRA operates. It is generally post-hoc. You are telling
:12:05. > :12:09.me there was an operation conducted out of control? Absolutely. It was
:12:10. > :12:14.out of what was permitted. I don't know why the people in charge
:12:15. > :12:19.weren't caught for that. In your view they should have been
:12:20. > :12:24.reprimanded? They should have been, for conducting an attack on two
:12:25. > :12:30.targets that were not within our limits. If you feel that, why have
:12:31. > :12:33.you not fully cooperated, in all the years since, including this year,
:12:34. > :12:40.when I gain you have been called on by the police to find out what
:12:41. > :12:47.unfolded. You have never been fully cooperative. The names of the
:12:48. > :12:55.bombers are well-known. I know that other people have come forward, but
:12:56. > :13:01.you have never why? I would only be repeating what they said. I would
:13:02. > :13:04.never finger an IRA man. You would never do that, even though you
:13:05. > :13:12.regard this as the most terrible, callous, immoral act? I don't want
:13:13. > :13:18.to put words in your mouth, do you think it is those things? I do.
:13:19. > :13:24.Yeah, but, I blame the local leadership in Birmingham for it.
:13:25. > :13:31.They were just doing what they were told to do. There was supposed to be
:13:32. > :13:37.a warning. In that sense, the operation might have, you know,
:13:38. > :13:44.fallen on the side of legitimacy if the warning had gone through.
:13:45. > :13:48.Really? There is a real contradiction there. You have said
:13:49. > :13:52.in the past that there is no way that a part that was not known to be
:13:53. > :14:07.a horns of military personnel should be a Target. -- haunt. It was still
:14:08. > :14:11.not full of military personnel, it was... I agree. It should not have
:14:12. > :14:15.happened. In that case, why, and you have set it in this interview, you
:14:16. > :14:17.are still withholding one piece of information. Only the name of the
:14:18. > :14:32.second man who conducted it. why? Because he is living. The
:14:33. > :14:36.victims' families are still living and they cannot rest until they feel
:14:37. > :14:44.that justice has been done. This man, is told the police, was
:14:45. > :14:48.involved. But you haven't told the police of the police don't know his
:14:49. > :14:51.name. Isn't it at least your moral duty to lay out what you know,
:14:52. > :14:54.particularly given the way you feel about it? I don't accept any
:14:55. > :15:05.responsibility in relation to doing this. Ever? You will take it to your
:15:06. > :15:09.grave? If he does before I die, then I will reveal it. Do you think your
:15:10. > :15:13.entire trajectory and the attitudes and what you did for the IRA would
:15:14. > :15:17.have been different if you had had kids? Going back to Julie one more
:15:18. > :15:22.time, she said he doesn't consider the bombers murderers, but I wonder
:15:23. > :15:27.what he would say if one of his own kids was killed in this way, all of
:15:28. > :15:32.their skin stripped of their bodies when he sees them with no legs, no
:15:33. > :15:35.arms, when they have been bombed so badly you can't see their faces
:15:36. > :15:39.because of the injuries. That is the feeling of a woman who has lost a
:15:40. > :15:43.sister in the bombings, and you didn't have children. Wouldn't you
:15:44. > :15:49.think you are have been more humane? I'm not sure I wasn't humane, as I
:15:50. > :15:53.say. When we were bombing targets we at least gave warnings, unlike the
:15:54. > :15:58.British. So no, I don't accept that we didn't try to be humane. Although
:15:59. > :16:02.there are at least half a dozen occasions on which I think
:16:03. > :16:06.individual IRA men and their commanders could be prosecuted for
:16:07. > :16:12.war crimes, even now. Have you told what you know to the police on that
:16:13. > :16:16.basis? No, I have not. No. Let me get my head around this. We are not
:16:17. > :16:20.talking about Birmingham necessarily, but you believe you
:16:21. > :16:24.know things which could be part of a prosecution for war crimes of
:16:25. > :16:28.individuals in the IRA, and you will not disclose that information. No,
:16:29. > :16:32.that's correct. I will never get the name of an IRA member under any
:16:33. > :16:37.circumstances. Under any circumstances, however egregious? If
:16:38. > :16:41.I end up before the High Court in proceedings for contempt, I would go
:16:42. > :16:46.to prison rather than name any living IRA member. Try to explain to
:16:47. > :16:52.me the morality of that. Because I don't get it. If you believe in war
:16:53. > :16:56.crimes... The morale of that is very straightforward. As far as though it
:16:57. > :17:00.is not trouble at all. As far as I'm concerned I was engaged in a just
:17:01. > :17:03.war. I stand behind everything I did. I was fortunate that all the
:17:04. > :17:06.things I did were clearly legitimate, firing on British
:17:07. > :17:11.soldiers and a handful of bombings that I engaged in. Let's talk about
:17:12. > :17:14.what you now feel about some of those men that you knew quite well,
:17:15. > :17:18.Martin McGuinness you knew quite well, he is one of the key
:17:19. > :17:21.politicians in the devolved government in Northern Ireland,
:17:22. > :17:27.representing Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams, I imagine you knew him very well. I
:17:28. > :17:30.knew McGenniss lot of them I would note Adams. I would consider her
:17:31. > :17:35.personal friend, particularly during the early days, when I was in Derry,
:17:36. > :17:38.and again in the mid- 70s. And yet even at the beginning of this
:17:39. > :17:43.interview you pointed out that you felt that the process that McGenniss
:17:44. > :17:47.and Adams and the rest of them at the top of the IRA engaged in any
:17:48. > :17:51.early 90s, which led ultimately to the Good Friday Agreement and to
:17:52. > :17:55.what we now see as power-sharing and every thing else, you feel it was a
:17:56. > :17:59.betrayal. It was a betrayal. There is no doubt about that. What they
:18:00. > :18:03.did was they accepted the British position, which was the position of
:18:04. > :18:09.the IRA had fought against the 25 years. And the terms were such, what
:18:10. > :18:13.can that be but a betrayal? Or you could also view it as a recognition
:18:14. > :18:18.of reality, and I called Gerry Adams, and the book, I refer to him
:18:19. > :18:23.as a malicious, lying bustard. At the same time it is a fact and he
:18:24. > :18:27.deserves credit for it that he single-handedly admitted he had
:18:28. > :18:33.collaborators, and he had managed to get McGenniss to agree with him,
:18:34. > :18:40.which surprised me. But you know, in broad terms, he single-handedly
:18:41. > :18:47.brought peace to Ireland, and... A piece that you recognise, and
:18:48. > :18:51.acknowledge? I acknowledge it, even though I still agree in Irish unity.
:18:52. > :18:57.I believe Ireland would be better off. Do you still believe in
:18:58. > :19:00.revolution? Revolution have has kind of had its time, the younger
:19:01. > :19:04.generation are not interested. Sorry to interrupt, but that's not
:19:05. > :19:07.entirely true. There are still remnants, the groups of the old
:19:08. > :19:14.Provisional IRA. They call themselves everything from the real
:19:15. > :19:17.IRA, the new IRA, and you as a lawyer in Ireland sometimes
:19:18. > :19:21.represent these people, reticent who are alleged to be members of these
:19:22. > :19:26.groups, with arms and explosives and everything else that go with it. I
:19:27. > :19:32.represented clients from all three IRA parties, very grateful for the
:19:33. > :19:36.work. You don't ever... Everything we have discussed in the past and
:19:37. > :19:40.the way you feel about the past, you don't ever say to yourself, I want
:19:41. > :19:47.nothing more to do with these people? No, I don't, no. On behalf
:19:48. > :19:51.of anybody, I am not judgemental. I may have my own Private view, but
:19:52. > :19:58.the most important thing for a defence lawyer is between clients,
:19:59. > :20:02.and we take on anybody, no matter how horrendous The Axe that they
:20:03. > :20:05.have been accused of. Some people in the intelligence and police in
:20:06. > :20:11.communities say that they have an ideological position on continuing
:20:12. > :20:15.the fight for a united Ireland, but actually they are just criminals and
:20:16. > :20:19.thugs. They are defending turf, loud peddling drugs, they are involved in
:20:20. > :20:23.protection rackets, and some would say that actually that is what the
:20:24. > :20:27.Provisional IRA became, as well. No, the Provisional IRA were never
:20:28. > :20:33.criminals, although in the border areas, obviously... You are a self
:20:34. > :20:37.acknowledged bank robber. Yes, and so is armed robbery, I don't agree
:20:38. > :20:41.with that, but there are certain ones who are involved in drugs, and
:20:42. > :20:47.criminal activity of that sort. I am quite certainly not. Are you? Yes.
:20:48. > :20:51.You know what happened to all the money you robbed? I was never
:20:52. > :20:55.involved in the finance department. On what basis could you possibly be
:20:56. > :21:01.confident that some of that money was not going to people's back
:21:02. > :21:06.pockets? Well, I can't, in 1971, we shot a volunteer in the legs for
:21:07. > :21:12.stealing a tenner after an armed robbery. So that was something that
:21:13. > :21:19.was completely unacceptable, any sort of personal gain. And it is
:21:20. > :21:23.shocking, it shocks me, that a lot of people in Belfast in particular
:21:24. > :21:28.seem to have benefited terribly, and have become very, very rich from the
:21:29. > :21:32.struggle, however they did it. I think that is an absolute disgrace.
:21:33. > :21:36.It is interesting, we have the end very soon but it is interesting, you
:21:37. > :21:40.make a point and you look from the south and you look from Dublin at
:21:41. > :21:44.what is happening in Belfast, and a visit in many ways you feel that
:21:45. > :21:49.what you see represents defeat, and a corrosive sort of failure of the
:21:50. > :21:54.Republican militant movement. Do you ever wish, my God, I wish I had
:21:55. > :22:00.never got involved in the whole mess? Not really, that is simply on
:22:01. > :22:06.a philosophical basis. I accept responsibility for the solutions,
:22:07. > :22:10.and on one reading I wasted 25 years. US the 25 years in your life,
:22:11. > :22:15.you were involved in a struggle which killed an awful lot of people,
:22:16. > :22:18.some of them -- war and military uniform, some of whom didn't, and
:22:19. > :22:22.were innocent civilians, and you have acknowledged that, and in the
:22:23. > :22:25.end as you talk about defeat for your movement, to talk about
:22:26. > :22:30.surrender, to talk about failure, what on earth was the point? Well,
:22:31. > :22:37.when we started off it didn't look like that was going to be the
:22:38. > :22:41.outcome, that it historically is. But judged on outcomes, you should
:22:42. > :22:45.never have gone there, never have engaged. No, if I thought that they
:22:46. > :22:50.might be the outcome, I wouldn't have gone near it, no, of course
:22:51. > :22:55.not. And a final thought about the place you live in, Ireland, which of
:22:56. > :23:01.course for so long has been in a sense shaped by conflict between the
:23:02. > :23:04.Irish and the British, do you think, either in your lifetime or beyond
:23:05. > :23:14.your lifetime, it is conceivable that Ireland will be a united
:23:15. > :23:17.Ireland? No, I don't. As long as the unionists are unwilling to have a
:23:18. > :23:21.united Ireland, and they will always be unwilling to have a united
:23:22. > :23:24.Ireland, that is their basic position, there is no prospect for
:23:25. > :23:29.Irish unity. Doesn't matter any more? We talk about the European
:23:30. > :23:34.Union, obviously there is a lot of discussion about what Brexit means,
:23:35. > :23:37.both for Britain and for Northern Ireland in particular, and how it
:23:38. > :23:40.will relate to the border between the North and the south of Ireland.
:23:41. > :23:47.Does that matter? Probably not, nationalism is a 19th-century
:23:48. > :23:51.construct. And we accept being part of Britain itself, which has voted
:23:52. > :23:57.to leave the EU. But when it comes to where you are, as a person, your
:23:58. > :24:02.history, you sleep easier at night? I have never had any trouble
:24:03. > :24:07.sleeping. No guilt, no nightmares. Kiaran Conway, we have two end
:24:08. > :24:09.there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.