:00:10. > :00:11.Welcome to Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:12. > :00:17.Africa is a mosaic of different languages,
:00:18. > :00:19.cultures and traditions but there are some shared African
:00:20. > :00:22.passions and one of them is the music made by my
:00:23. > :00:25.guest today, Yvonne Chaka Chaka, she was raised in poverty in Soweto
:00:26. > :00:30.Her ability to sing gave her a route out.
:00:31. > :00:32.Her songs, celebrating the priend strength of
:00:33. > :00:35.black South Africa, became favourites of Nelson Mandela.
:00:36. > :00:37.After 30 years of recording and touring,
:00:38. > :00:42.she's known as the Princess of Africa.
:00:43. > :01:15.How does she feel about the changes that she's seen?
:01:16. > :01:16.Yvonne Chaka Chaka, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:17. > :01:24.You have been touring and recording for three decades.
:01:25. > :01:27.Do you still have the same level of passion and excitement today that
:01:28. > :01:34.And, when I started I was 19 years old.
:01:35. > :01:38.I actually didn't think that in three years,
:01:39. > :01:41.I would be there, when I started in 1985, because my mother never
:01:42. > :01:51.I never thought there was longevity in the music industry.
:01:52. > :01:55.But 31 years later, I look back and I say, this is what God
:01:56. > :01:59.What God had printed for you?
:02:00. > :02:02.Was it, do you think, a passport out of poverty?
:02:03. > :02:06.Your ability to sing and the fact that your ability to sing and it
:02:07. > :02:15.You would call it poverty, I didn't call it poverty
:02:16. > :02:18.because you would go next door to your neighbour and ask for food
:02:19. > :02:24.Were you as a kid encouraged by family, by your mum and others
:02:25. > :02:28.You were living in Soweto at a time of great unrest, deep unhappiness,
:02:29. > :02:30.of course, amongst the black South African population
:02:31. > :02:40.As a young girl, I have always known there were atrocities in my country.
:02:41. > :02:43.Because when my father died, the white government took the house
:02:44. > :02:46.She was a single black mother and she wasn't allowed
:02:47. > :02:50.to have the house and my mother's madam, the woman my mother worked
:02:51. > :02:53.for, fought tooth and nail for us to get back the house
:02:54. > :02:58.because we ended up living in her back yard.
:02:59. > :03:00.And it was just terrible, because every time my mother
:03:01. > :03:04.would take her kids to school, which was across the road and we had
:03:05. > :03:08.to commute at 6.00 in the morning with my two elder sisters,
:03:09. > :03:13.back to Soweto, to school, and come back the in evening
:03:14. > :03:17.and what was so hurtful was every day we were come back from school,
:03:18. > :03:21.the white boys would take the catapults and throw stones at us
:03:22. > :03:23.and open the dogs or set the dogs on us.
:03:24. > :03:26.I have three dog bites on my body today.
:03:27. > :03:29.You were not allowed to report that, because you were black.
:03:30. > :03:33.What I find so remarkable, as you tell these stories
:03:34. > :03:37.of your childhood is the fact that you did find what I called
:03:38. > :03:40.in the introduction, that route out and it seems to me,
:03:41. > :03:43.the odds must have been so stacked against you, given that it was
:03:44. > :03:54.Given that the music industry, the record companies,
:03:55. > :03:58.the radio stations, they are all run by white people for white people
:03:59. > :04:01.and you as a black girl, with your beautiful voice,
:04:02. > :04:03.you got spotted and you became a recording star.
:04:04. > :04:07.What was funny, I was spotted by a white man.
:04:08. > :04:10.A white man put his money, Phil Hollis, and an Afrikaner,
:04:11. > :04:16.He wrote I'm in Love with a DJ with the help of a black man.
:04:17. > :04:20.With the help of another man, he wrote my music.
:04:21. > :04:25.I went to the SABC, by mistake by the way.
:04:26. > :04:27.The South African broadcasting company.
:04:28. > :04:30.I had just completed my metric and I was looking for a job
:04:31. > :04:33.because mum could not afford to take me to university.
:04:34. > :04:37.I stumbled, as I was supposed to be going to look for a bursary
:04:38. > :04:53.and stumbled and went to the SABC, met the guy, who knew somebody else.
:04:54. > :04:56.Took me to this place - in fact they were not taking me
:04:57. > :05:00.to tell the truth, they were taking the lady who was with me,
:05:01. > :05:03.to the place and the guy liked me, gave me the money
:05:04. > :05:07.This sounds like the strangest sort of question -
:05:08. > :05:10.I would love to know, when you had that first meeting with...
:05:11. > :05:13.With Phil and you wanted to persuade him you could sing.
:05:14. > :05:17.Were you a black girl who had the confidence to go into an office
:05:18. > :05:20.with a white man and open your lungs and sing a song.
:05:21. > :05:24.He comes out of the boardroom with a lady and he says, "OK, you go
:05:25. > :05:27.and sit in the about boardroom, young lady, come."
:05:28. > :05:30.I go into the boardroom and he says "Can you sing?"
:05:31. > :05:33.And I'm looking at my tummy and saying, "I have to go,
:05:34. > :05:40.I started to sing # When I find myself in times of trouble,
:05:41. > :05:43.No, he gave me four paper rands, it was paper money.
:05:44. > :05:49.Gave me the tape of I'm In Love with a DJ, gave me
:05:50. > :05:52.the words and he says - "Here, go learn the song,
:05:53. > :05:54.come back on Monday I'm going to make awe star."
:05:55. > :05:57.He was basically giving you a dollar or so.
:05:58. > :06:00.I looked at the white man and said "Thank you very much,
:06:01. > :06:06.I love the story, but in a sense, everything you were seeing at home
:06:07. > :06:09.and what was happening to your family and Soweto was under
:06:10. > :06:12.apartheid was so different from the experience you then had,
:06:13. > :06:15.working with white people in the music industry and then
:06:16. > :06:20.Was there any part of you that felt it was odd, to be,
:06:21. > :06:23.sort of collaborating, if you like, with these successful white people,
:06:24. > :06:29.At the record company where I was working,
:06:30. > :06:36.We had a lot of black artists that the white men managed.
:06:37. > :06:43.There were quite a few white artists during the time but it was natural
:06:44. > :06:47.to be there at that particular time and the fact that the man put money
:06:48. > :06:56.For people who don't know your music, there will be some
:06:57. > :07:00.around the world not in Africa, but some around the world who don't
:07:01. > :07:03.Let's just have a look at a first clip.
:07:04. > :07:06.Now this is you singing one of your songs, Africa cries.
:07:07. > :07:22.# Wishing for somewhere to play
:07:23. > :07:38.# They need a home where they belong
:07:39. > :07:42.# Now watching the people # There's no-one who cares
:07:43. > :07:48.# They're looking for something to eat
:07:49. > :08:03.# Oh, where will they go # Oh, where will they go #
:08:04. > :08:07.Is it true that when you recorded that,
:08:08. > :08:10.I believe in the late '80s, that the South African broadcasting
:08:11. > :08:11.corporation would not actually play it?
:08:12. > :08:16.It is Africa is Crying for the Children.
:08:17. > :08:19.We wrote the song with and right at the end, there is a section
:08:20. > :08:22.and they would never play the song, it was never played.
:08:23. > :08:27.Exactly, at the time it was not allowed.
:08:28. > :08:31.You couldn't sing that song in public.
:08:32. > :08:33.In a sense, your songs weren't overtly political,
:08:34. > :08:35.the lyrics weren't deeply politicised but I'm getting
:08:36. > :08:38.the sense you were out there to show black South African pride
:08:39. > :08:47.and strength through your music, but you were fearful, too.
:08:48. > :08:50.I mean there is one extraordinary story about how Nelson Mandela
:08:51. > :08:54.in Robin island was able to listen to your music a and he loved it
:08:55. > :09:05.and he sent the message via Winnie that he was a fan of yours.
:09:06. > :09:09.She gave you a note that was written by Nelson.
:09:10. > :09:14.Winnie is one of my favourite, favourite persons.
:09:15. > :09:18.She came with a note that had been written.
:09:19. > :09:20.I think it was Christmas, "Yvonne Chaka Chaka from your father
:09:21. > :09:40.Because why would I have a note from this man.
:09:41. > :09:45.And in fact my mother was more upset than anybody.
:09:46. > :09:48.She said, "The police will kill us if you -
:09:49. > :10:00.No, tore the letter, I had to chew the letter.
:10:01. > :10:02.You ate the letter from Nelson Mandela?
:10:03. > :10:08.Today I look back and I would be saying I would be having lots
:10:09. > :10:13.I don't think you would, I think you would have kept it
:10:14. > :10:16.I would have kept it and auctioned it.
:10:17. > :10:22.I suppose what I'm getting at is, you know, you had a very
:10:23. > :10:26.By the late '80s and in the last years of apartheid you were a famous
:10:27. > :10:29.singer and you were not only travel through South Africa,
:10:30. > :10:34.You had, I suppose, a platform that could have allowed you to
:10:35. > :10:36.become very political but you sort of didn't.
:10:37. > :10:44.I think political, it is relative, if you can say.
:10:45. > :10:46.Political by maybe sitting in the office, otherwise
:10:47. > :10:49.I guess my music, everything that I do is political.
:10:50. > :10:51.Because, I talk about the things that I see.
:10:52. > :10:54.I talk about the things that affect my people.
:10:55. > :10:57.I talk about the things that affect me as well.
:10:58. > :11:00.It's either you are - it is like Aids, you are either
:11:01. > :11:06.You can't be sitting on the fence and you have to articulate
:11:07. > :11:12.You have seen an enormous amount of change in Africa, and you,
:11:13. > :11:15.as I said, you travelled through the continent.
:11:16. > :11:20.I remember the story about you getting mobbed in Uganda
:11:21. > :11:23.when you first went there, with thousands of people wanting
:11:24. > :11:30.And you then decided, I think over years, to begin
:11:31. > :11:32.to speak out, about what you were seeing in Africa.
:11:33. > :11:35.Not least governance issues, and the fact that so many African
:11:36. > :11:38.countries, so very youthful populations had leaders who had been
:11:39. > :11:40.around for not just decades but many decades.
:11:41. > :11:45.That seems to be something that you worry about.
:11:46. > :11:48.I really do worry, Steve, you know, I'm 51 today.
:11:49. > :11:52.Today you go into this beautiful continent called Africa
:11:53. > :11:54.and it is still called a developing space.
:11:55. > :11:57.How so, when there's so many minerals, when there is so much
:11:58. > :12:01.and you find us going into the first world with a begging bowl.
:12:02. > :12:12.Africa is not the dark continent everybody perceives it to be,
:12:13. > :12:17.Africa needs great leaders and we do have great leaders by the way.
:12:18. > :12:20.We just need the political will and we need young leaders
:12:21. > :12:27.You know we need young leaders to shape the Africa they want.
:12:28. > :12:30.I'm an African and that will never change.
:12:31. > :12:32.I just wonder where, specifically, you see the problems.
:12:33. > :12:36.I'm just mindful of what you said to the World Economic Forum meeting
:12:37. > :12:38.in Cape Town in 2015, you said, you direct,
:12:39. > :12:43.Our leaders don't want to move out of office.
:12:44. > :12:46.Some of them are richer than their countries.
:12:47. > :12:48.Presidents who stay in office for decades.
:12:49. > :13:00.It is actually very sad that people will go to IMF.
:13:01. > :13:06.People will go and get money for aid when some of the leaders are even
:13:07. > :13:18.If we we say people should govern, let's make sure everybody has
:13:19. > :13:23.Let's make sure the children have money to go to school.
:13:24. > :13:25.Let's make sure there's medication in clinics.
:13:26. > :13:28.Let's make sure that women don't walk hours going to get medication.
:13:29. > :13:31.Let's make sure that people are not fighting for all these things
:13:32. > :13:35.I don't think anybody is going to quarterly with those
:13:36. > :13:37.sentiments but you very elegantly avoided my question.
:13:38. > :13:42.It is quite important to know where you see the problems.
:13:43. > :13:45.For example, you said in another interview, "It is time for Mr Mugabe
:13:46. > :13:49.(Robert Mugabe) leader of Zimbabwe, to go home and write books.
:13:50. > :13:53.I think you could say the same, you said about Mr Musveneni, too,
:13:54. > :13:56.obviously the Ugandan leader, he could go and write
:13:57. > :14:02.You got in trouble for those remarks.
:14:03. > :14:04.That is in a way is what I'm interested in.
:14:05. > :14:09.When you take the time and use the platform to name names,
:14:10. > :14:14.some citizens of those countries get very angry with you
:14:15. > :14:25.And when I say so, I don't say it because I'm rude or derogatory.
:14:26. > :14:31.I say that because I do respect these leaders.
:14:32. > :14:34.I respect them because, you know what, they gave us
:14:35. > :14:37.Well, I understand that, but you also say it
:14:38. > :14:40.because you think their longevity and the way they are running
:14:41. > :14:42.their countries now is damaging the people's interests.
:14:43. > :14:46.I say that because there is still a lot they can do for us.
:14:47. > :14:50.They can write history and we can read about it, instead of seeing
:14:51. > :14:53.so many Zimbabweans in England or in South Africa or in other
:14:54. > :14:56.countries, where they could be going into their countries
:14:57. > :14:59.Zimbabwe is one of the best countries, what Mr Mugabe give
:15:00. > :15:03.was it give his people a good education, so they can build
:15:04. > :15:15.I have looked at some of the social media reaction,
:15:16. > :15:18.things you have said about Mr Mugabe in particular
:15:19. > :15:21.and what some Zimbabweans and one can only presume they are loyalists
:15:22. > :15:25.to Mr Mugabe himself what some say, "How dare she mouth off
:15:26. > :15:28.about our problems when she is so, so not ready to be honest
:15:29. > :15:30.and truthful about what's happening in South Africa today."
:15:31. > :15:33.So here's your opportunity, how worried are you about
:15:34. > :15:35.what is happening in your own,
:15:36. > :15:41.We do have our own problems in South Africa.
:15:42. > :15:45.As I said, I'm not a politician, but we live in these times.
:15:46. > :15:54.ANC, PAC, Steve Bickle and all those people,
:15:55. > :15:58.these are the people who fought for me to know myself that I am
:15:59. > :16:01.a South African and walk tall today because you know what,
:16:02. > :16:04.I have been given back my dignity but with that said,
:16:05. > :16:11.there are still so many atrocities that are happening.
:16:12. > :16:15.We talk of corruption and we talk of so many bad things that
:16:16. > :16:19.are happening and it is important we get leaders who will not shy away
:16:20. > :16:22.from that and who will stand up and say - things are wrong,
:16:23. > :16:27.Well, it's very interest, the focus you put on leadership.
:16:28. > :16:30.It is a great cue in way to introduce the second piece
:16:31. > :16:34.of music I want people to see of yours and to listen to.
:16:35. > :16:38.Let's look at this video you made for a song Amazing Man you made
:16:39. > :16:41.which is a tribute to leadership, but obviously very much,
:16:42. > :17:20.Clearly a tribute to Mandela and a tribute
:17:21. > :17:34.to Africa, and in this case South Africa.
:17:35. > :17:36.Do you believe that his successes and I'm thinking
:17:37. > :17:39.about President Jacob Zuma above all others, have let down
:17:40. > :17:43.It is not about the legacy of Mandela, it's about what presidents
:17:44. > :17:49.He did what he did and I think we as South Africans,
:17:50. > :17:53.we were actually very lucky to have a man like Nelson Mandela.
:17:54. > :17:57.Because if it wasn't for him, I'm sure South Africa would have
:17:58. > :18:03.So, as I said in my song, he taught us to work together,
:18:04. > :18:05.and tolerate each other and appreciate each other
:18:06. > :18:08.as South Africans and then came Thabo Mbeki, it was time for work
:18:09. > :18:20.As you know, the point is, Jacob Zuma you know
:18:21. > :18:24.Some personal scandal, some about the way he ran his government
:18:25. > :18:28.A whole host of the heroes from the liberation struggle
:18:29. > :18:31.from Desmond Tutu to Ahmed Cathrada have demanded his resignation.
:18:32. > :18:34.You are one of South Africa's most prominent artists today.
:18:35. > :18:36.Do you believe it's time for him to go?
:18:37. > :18:39.Well, as I said, I'm not a card-carrying member of the ANC
:18:40. > :18:48.It will be those in office who will ask Mr Zuma to resign.
:18:49. > :18:52.I don't think I have the right to ask him to resign but as I said,
:18:53. > :19:04.if people want him to resign, if he is honest with himself,
:19:05. > :19:08.he will stand up and say, "Yes, it's time for me to resign."
:19:09. > :19:12.You have stood up for certain political causes.
:19:13. > :19:21.campaign, it is students demanning an end to the rise in tuition fees
:19:22. > :19:25.It is led to unrest, it's led to riots, do
:19:26. > :19:27.you believe that, again, on these specific issues,
:19:28. > :19:29.the people of your country are being betrayed
:19:30. > :19:32.Not only the people, even our children,
:19:33. > :19:36.I'm sure the children are able to be given a chance to learn.
:19:37. > :19:50.a chance to have a decolumnised education.
:19:51. > :19:53.They should be able to be given education that can
:19:54. > :19:56.And we as the people, the government and the corporations
:19:57. > :20:00.have not done much to help our children and we should not sit down
:20:01. > :20:04.and fold our arms and say everything is OK, when things are not OK.
:20:05. > :20:08.In 1976, I was only 11 years old when our brothers were trying
:20:09. > :20:12.Those children are my children and are trying
:20:13. > :20:17.If those children's parents, who are working in the universities,
:20:18. > :20:22.if the children themselves can fight for those children to be able to go
:20:23. > :20:33.This is victory, we have to support them.
:20:34. > :20:36.That, in a sense, is a political campaign that you are involved with,
:20:37. > :20:40.particularly for youth and for the children.
:20:41. > :20:42.You have taken on a lot of cultural campaigns,
:20:43. > :20:46.too, sometimes in areas where one wouldn't necessarily expect a pop
:20:47. > :20:52.For example, I'm thinking of the loud voice you have given
:20:53. > :20:54.to supporting the distribution of tampons
:20:55. > :21:06.all schoolgirls in South Africa have access to a lockable toilet.
:21:07. > :21:09.Because, as you've explained, for so many adolescent girls
:21:10. > :21:12.it is impossible to go to school when they are menstruating.
:21:13. > :21:14.What pushes you into these areas, which for some South Africans
:21:15. > :21:26.are probably quite sensitive territory?
:21:27. > :21:28."If I did not have a mother who was very strong..."
:21:29. > :21:32.My mother was not that educated but I look back today as a mother
:21:33. > :21:38.because my mother never prostituted us."
:21:39. > :21:41.She never said, "There is no father in the house,
:21:42. > :21:44.go find a Steve, go find a Peter and get some money."
:21:45. > :21:48.She guarded us, she protected us and I say she is my hero.
:21:49. > :21:52.Today I walk tall as a woman who, who did not, who was not prostituted
:21:53. > :21:56.And I look at these young children and all over Africa you find more
:21:57. > :21:59.girls not going to school because they do not have these
:22:00. > :22:02.tampons or pads and they miss schools and as a matter
:22:03. > :22:09.They then stay away from school and they become mothers,
:22:10. > :22:14.at an early age and that should not be accepted.
:22:15. > :22:19.There are all sorts of gender issues you've taken on,
:22:20. > :22:22.not least one that is quite close to home.
:22:23. > :22:24.You have said quite openly that your husband comes
:22:25. > :22:28.from a people where multiple wives is a perfectly acceptable practice.
:22:29. > :22:31.And you have said, "I've told him, if he wants multiple wives,
:22:32. > :22:35.go ahead but it won't be with me because I'm leaving."
:22:36. > :22:37.When you make that kind of personal/public stand,
:22:38. > :22:40.what kind of a reaction do you get in South Africa?
:22:41. > :22:43.Well, I'm a liberal, I'm a free person.
:22:44. > :22:46.My husband married me knowing that I'm Yvonne and I married him knowing
:22:47. > :22:58.I respect culture, but, you know what, if he chose me,
:22:59. > :23:01.it's he for me and I'm her for he and that's it.
:23:02. > :23:04.It can't be both ways, you can't have your cake
:23:05. > :23:12.Final question, how much has South Africa changed
:23:13. > :23:14.while you have been recording and performing
:23:15. > :23:20.South Africa has changed drastically for the good as well.
:23:21. > :23:23.I can say today, with all the problems that we have,
:23:24. > :23:26.more people have got houses, more people have got streets that
:23:27. > :23:31.Yes, the whole world is crying there is no water.
:23:32. > :23:35.More people have got sanitation today and I can say
:23:36. > :23:38.there are still problems but what I would urge my
:23:39. > :23:42.Government and ask them is to say, let's go back it the drawing board.
:23:43. > :23:47.fighting for all the servics they need.
:23:48. > :23:50.We say people shall govern, let them govern.
:23:51. > :23:54.We have put you there in power and make sure you lead us with love
:23:55. > :23:56.and respect and we'll keep on voting for you.
:23:57. > :23:59.Yvonne Chaka Chaka, we have to end it there.
:24:00. > :24:04.Thank you very much, it wasn't HARDtalk,
:24:05. > :24:29.Thankfully Storm Angus is well on its way towards Scandinavia,
:24:30. > :24:31.having had its moment in the spotlight.
:24:32. > :24:34.But whilst it was around, boy, did we know about it