:00:11. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Don't be misled by the
:00:18. > :00:22.battle currently raging in the Iraqi city of Mosul, where Kurdish forces,
:00:23. > :00:27.the Iraqi army and actors from outside, like the US and Iran, all
:00:28. > :00:32.seem united in their desire to vanquish so-called Islamic State.
:00:33. > :00:38.The unity is skin deep. Today my focus is on Iraq's Kurds. There in
:00:39. > :00:44.internal divisions and strategic ambitions. My guest is the Deputy
:00:45. > :00:47.Prime Minister of the Kurdish region, Qubad Talabani. Is Kurdish
:00:48. > :01:12.independence and inflammatory illusion?
:01:13. > :01:24.Thank you, Stephen. Let's start by reflecting on what is happening in
:01:25. > :01:27.Mosul. There we see Peshmerga Kurdish forces working with others
:01:28. > :01:31.to try and liberate the city from the control of so-called Islamic
:01:32. > :01:38.State, it makes the Kurds looked like a coherent, united force. But
:01:39. > :01:41.you're not, are you? We're united on the battlefront and we've been
:01:42. > :01:46.united throughout this conflict against ISIS. We've been able to,
:01:47. > :01:51.with Iraq and with the support of the international co- elation, not
:01:52. > :01:56.just defend the boundaries of Kurdistan, but make significant
:01:57. > :02:00.inroads into damaging this group and forcing them back and actually being
:02:01. > :02:05.very successful in the task that was given to us in the operation to
:02:06. > :02:10.liberate Mosul. But back home, if I can put it that way, far from the
:02:11. > :02:16.frontlines there are internal divisions, there's poor governance,
:02:17. > :02:20.in a sense there is chaos. There are divisions and there's political
:02:21. > :02:24.rivalry and political rivalry is at times healthy, at times it's an
:02:25. > :02:29.obstacle to some of the reforms that we are trying to take in our
:02:30. > :02:34.government. I wouldn't define it as chaos, but I think that there are
:02:35. > :02:38.genuine questions being asked by the political parties of each other
:02:39. > :02:42.regarding the current state of affairs of Kurdistan and its future.
:02:43. > :02:46.Genuine questions is good because I've got plenty of genuine
:02:47. > :02:50.questions. Let's start by looking at the agenda that your forces have
:02:51. > :02:54.when they go into battle against Islamic State in the so-called
:02:55. > :02:59.caliphate, which obviously runs across a swathe of Northern Iraq. It
:03:00. > :03:09.seems to me looking at the words of your commanders on the ground that
:03:10. > :03:12.they believe when they" Liberate" territory, they're going to keep it
:03:13. > :03:17.for the Kurdish region. Is that the way you see it, is that the way it
:03:18. > :03:19.should be? We have an agreement, a trilateral agreement between Iraq,
:03:20. > :03:23.the Kurdistan and the United States that areas that we liberate after
:03:24. > :03:28.the beginning of operations to liberate Mosul will be handed back
:03:29. > :03:35.to the Iraqi authorities, the Mosul authorities. But Kurdish areas that
:03:36. > :03:39.have been liberated from Mosul are Kurdish areas and the Kurdish
:03:40. > :03:43.security forces will administrate those areas. That statement within
:03:44. > :03:48.30 seconds completely confused me, on the one hand you said you will
:03:49. > :03:51.hand them over to the forces of the national Iraqi government and in the
:03:52. > :03:55.next breath you say some of them you're going to keep for yourself. I
:03:56. > :03:58.tell you what your president Masoud Barzani says, these areas were
:03:59. > :04:02.liberated by the blood of our martyrs and our wounded, it's not
:04:03. > :04:07.possible after all these sacrifices to return them to direct federal
:04:08. > :04:13.control. There's a vast swathe of territory here we're talking about
:04:14. > :04:16.and I don't think we can at it as one blanket piece of territory.
:04:17. > :04:20.There are areas that are clearly Kurdish, dominated by Kurdish
:04:21. > :04:24.populations, Kurdish populations that have historically suffered
:04:25. > :04:28.horrendous abuses by the former Iraqi government and then recent
:04:29. > :04:32.genocide carried out by ISIS. These areas that are predominantly Kurdish
:04:33. > :04:35.that fall within the boundaries of Kurdistan are well within the
:04:36. > :04:40.authority of the Kurdistan and to secure these areas. But some of them
:04:41. > :04:44.with respect are only Kurdish because it's quite clear from
:04:45. > :04:48.evidence, tumour lights watch have presented and Amnesty International
:04:49. > :04:57.and other independent observers, certain towns and these villages
:04:58. > :05:00.that your forces, Peshmerga forces, have cleared out the Sunni Arab
:05:01. > :05:03.population and we know from satellite imagery that in certain
:05:04. > :05:07.cases they have used bulldozers to raze villages to the ground. We are
:05:08. > :05:12.not in the land grabbing business. What is that about? We are about
:05:13. > :05:16.defending Kurdistan from the most stream terrorist group that has set
:05:17. > :05:20.foot in Iraq, that has caused immeasurable damage to the people of
:05:21. > :05:25.the country, to Arabs in the country, to sunnies in particular,
:05:26. > :05:31.to Kurds and the Yazidis, Christians and other members of the communities
:05:32. > :05:34.of Iraq. The Kurdish forces are in charge of protecting the Kurdistan
:05:35. > :05:38.in first and foremost. Some of the accusations levied against us we
:05:39. > :05:43.have responded to. I would like you to respond directly, Donatella
:05:44. > :05:46.Rivera, Amnesty International senior prices were sponsored by the said
:05:47. > :05:50.the forced displacement of civilians and the destruction of homes and
:05:51. > :05:54.property without military justification by Peshmerga forces
:05:55. > :05:59.may amount to war crimes. Well, I can't comment on that. You're the
:06:00. > :06:03.Deputy Prime Minister of the regional government. I can't comment
:06:04. > :06:07.on an allegation like that because it's an allegation. Our commanders
:06:08. > :06:11.on the ground haven't seen it like that. We've discussed this with
:06:12. > :06:14.Amnesty International, we've issued a response to Amnesty International
:06:15. > :06:19.and I would point you to that response. I don't know if you've
:06:20. > :06:24.been to villages, there is one that was taken while Peshmerga forces
:06:25. > :06:30.from IS, allegedly a place where abuses were rice and homes were
:06:31. > :06:34.destroyed by the dozen. I think that this... To say at this point that
:06:35. > :06:40.the Kurds here are the aggressors against ISIS, that the Kurds...
:06:41. > :06:45.That's not what I'm saying and you know it. That the Kurds are unfair
:06:46. > :06:49.against ices or heaven forbid violating any kind of code of
:06:50. > :06:55.conflict. This is no judgement on ISIS. -- against ISIS. It's about
:06:56. > :06:59.your government. It's not about the current Mosul operation, there are
:07:00. > :07:04.issues around Kirkuk, the question the international community is
:07:05. > :07:08.asking is what is the ambition of the Kurdish regional government? Are
:07:09. > :07:12.their places that were previously settlements, villages inhabited by a
:07:13. > :07:16.mixed population, many residents would be Sunni Arab, are they now
:07:17. > :07:21.being ethnically cleansed by Kurdish Peshmerga forces that want to expand
:07:22. > :07:25.the reach of your region? First and foremost, these areas where battles
:07:26. > :07:31.have taken place have been cleared of civilians way be for bullets were
:07:32. > :07:34.fired. This isn't about forced displacement of people, this isn't
:07:35. > :07:38.about any kind of raising of villages -- way before. These are
:07:39. > :07:44.areas that were cleared of civilians either by choice that they left
:07:45. > :07:48.these areas, or because they may have been ISIS sympathisers.
:07:49. > :07:53.Remember, ISIS is not a foreign group. ISIS did not come from Mars,
:07:54. > :07:59.it wasn't concocted in some foreign land and then exported to Iraq. ISIS
:08:00. > :08:03.is Iraqi, ISIS was born in Iraq, ISIS as a large group of people
:08:04. > :08:13.within Iraq that supported its ideology, that fought alongside the
:08:14. > :08:17.foreign fighters to commit the crimes that they did -- has a large
:08:18. > :08:20.group. When the Kurdish forces, the Iraqi forces, the coalition forces
:08:21. > :08:24.are coming in to clear these areas, of course these people are going to
:08:25. > :08:27.flee. When they flee and there are buildings that are booby-trapped and
:08:28. > :08:30.buildings were snipers are holed out attacking our oncoming forces, we
:08:31. > :08:34.have to make a decision about how we treat those forces held up in those
:08:35. > :08:38.houses causing further terror to oncoming forces that are intending
:08:39. > :08:44.to liberate these areas. You've skirted round my basic question,
:08:45. > :08:54.what is the ambition, agenda of your government, the Kurdish regional
:08:55. > :08:57.government. Let me put to you another quote that gets beyond the
:08:58. > :09:00.issue of what's happening around Mosul to the big picture. On the
:09:01. > :09:03.20th of October, the Kurdish by Minister of your regional government
:09:04. > :09:07.said," As soon as Mosul is liberated we will meet with our partners in
:09:08. > :09:10.Baghdad and talk about our independence". Is that the backstop
:09:11. > :09:15.here, that you see the campaign in Mosul, the Peshmerga expansion of
:09:16. > :09:20.its activities, as part of a drive towards imminent independence? We
:09:21. > :09:25.have not been shy about talking to Iraq, talking to our partners in the
:09:26. > :09:30.West, about our aspirations and about the aspirations of our people
:09:31. > :09:34.who, by and large, want to be independent. I think that's a
:09:35. > :09:40.natural right of the Kurds. It's an historic rights of the Kurds and in
:09:41. > :09:44.fact it's an historic injustice that today the Kurds don't have a state
:09:45. > :09:48.of their own. But the fact that we are talking to Baghdad about this
:09:49. > :09:53.issue, the fact that we will negotiate any independence process
:09:54. > :09:58.with Baghdad, should allay the fears of any countries nearby or far away
:09:59. > :10:03.that may be concerned about the potential eventuality. Interesting,
:10:04. > :10:07.you use an elegant politician's device there of saying two different
:10:08. > :10:14.things. One you said talk to Baghdad and then you talked about a
:10:15. > :10:19.negotiation. It's a process. It's a process. It's not a declaration.
:10:20. > :10:23.They will not be a unilateral declaration. Your language is
:10:24. > :10:26.different from some around the president of the KRG, the regional
:10:27. > :10:35.government. Let me give you this one. Iraq is over, said Mr Hiromi, a
:10:36. > :10:40.close adviser to President Barzani, statehood is now the only solution.
:10:41. > :10:44.That's what he said, that's not a negotiation, a declaration you of
:10:45. > :10:49.your perception of fact. That's an opinion. Is it your opinion? My
:10:50. > :10:54.opinion is Iraq has failed as a state, it has failed to govern, it
:10:55. > :10:59.has failed to be a fair governor for all. Iraq has failed when one third
:11:00. > :11:04.of the country is in the hands of a terrorist organisation. Another
:11:05. > :11:11.major portion of the country has been excluded, its financial dues by
:11:12. > :11:17.the federal government. And today we have a situation in the country
:11:18. > :11:21.where polarisation is the norm. The situation in Iraq hasn't improved
:11:22. > :11:25.over the years. I'm struggling to see where there's a negotiation,
:11:26. > :11:29.your message, not quite as clear-cut as others, including President
:11:30. > :11:34.Barzani, but your declaration seems to be bye-bye, we're on our way out,
:11:35. > :11:39.whatever you say, we're going. Is that it? Our independence will come
:11:40. > :11:43.through a dialogue with Baghdad. Baghdad doesn't want you to go, they
:11:44. > :11:48.say in the end the territorial integrity of our is paramount and
:11:49. > :11:54.you will not go. They haven't said that. What are they saying?
:11:55. > :11:59.Independence is a process and it starts with a discussion and that
:12:00. > :12:03.discussion has begun. Let me ask you about this referendum. President
:12:04. > :12:06.Barzani appeared to promise a referendum in 2014, it didn't
:12:07. > :12:10.happen, then he said they would have a referendum before the US goes to
:12:11. > :12:14.the polls in a presidential election, that's been and gone and
:12:15. > :12:19.still no referendum. He says now it will come as soon as Mosul has
:12:20. > :12:28.fallen. What do you say? The referendum is a vehicle to express
:12:29. > :12:31.the will of our people. It is not a decision that immediately after a
:12:32. > :12:34.referendum we will take down the Iraqi flag and raise the Kurdish one
:12:35. > :12:38.and declare independence, it's a process. When will the referendum
:12:39. > :12:44.happen, Deputy Prime Minister? It's confusing to me, when is it going to
:12:45. > :12:49.happen? A referendum costs money. Kurdistan is facing an unprecedented
:12:50. > :12:54.fiscal and economic crisis right now. That's preposterous, you're
:12:55. > :13:03.saying you're ready for it, it's the only solution. Your putting words in
:13:04. > :13:09.my mouth. Then you're saying you're... Your putting words into my
:13:10. > :13:13.mouth here. I'm saying one thing and you're saying another. I'm saying
:13:14. > :13:18.that the independence is an aspiration of our people. There's a
:13:19. > :13:23.genuine consensus across our population that Kurds by and large
:13:24. > :13:27.want to be independent. So that's a process, the process starts with a
:13:28. > :13:32.dialogue, this process starts with negotiations, the process has at its
:13:33. > :13:38.core a referendum. But there are many key elements may need to work
:13:39. > :13:42.out with Baghdad. Overflight rights, banking, borders, passports, all
:13:43. > :13:46.kinds of things. It's not going to be a cut and shut job into meetings
:13:47. > :13:52.and we from declaring independence... What is your idea of
:13:53. > :13:56.a timeframe? My idea of a timeframe is burst of all we need to get our
:13:57. > :14:04.own house in order in Kurdistan, we need to sort out the displaced
:14:05. > :14:07.people and we are at war. We have got 3000-4000 capital investment
:14:08. > :14:11.projects that have stalled because of the fiscal situation in
:14:12. > :14:15.Kurdistan. So right now our government's priority is to get its
:14:16. > :14:20.house in order, Howard Government's priority now is to enact serious
:14:21. > :14:24.reforms that will fix our economy, get people on the right track,
:14:25. > :14:28.bite-size our government, get the private sector thriving and then, of
:14:29. > :14:31.course, the political track is one that runs parallel to the
:14:32. > :14:34.administrator of issues that we're facing.
:14:35. > :14:40.I don't want to put words in your mouth. Am I right in interpreting
:14:41. > :14:44.what you said as in essence saying there's no way we are ready for
:14:45. > :14:47.independence right now? We have to many problems, not least a
:14:48. > :14:51.collapsing economy? I think there will never be the perfect time to
:14:52. > :14:54.declare independence. I don't think anyone will ever give us
:14:55. > :14:58.independence on a silver plate. I think there is a struggle for an
:14:59. > :15:03.independence and I think that struggle has to run in parallel to
:15:04. > :15:08.our primary responsibilities, which is to cater for the citizens of
:15:09. > :15:12.Kurdistan. In this interview you have been frank about the scale of
:15:13. > :15:16.the problems. Recent EU said the existential threat facing Kurdistan
:15:17. > :15:21.today is the economy. Why is it in such a mess when over the past let's
:15:22. > :15:25.say ten years you have received tens of billions of dollars from the
:15:26. > :15:30.Iraqi government and indeed from direct oil sales as well, but all
:15:31. > :15:34.oil revenues? Tens of billions of dollars, and yet you are running the
:15:35. > :15:40.most terrible deficits and national debt, or let's a regional debt?
:15:41. > :15:45.Kurdistan was hit by multiple shocks. Our economy suffered
:15:46. > :15:52.significantly in 2014 when Baghdad cut our federal funding. June, July,
:15:53. > :15:56.August that year the wall with ISIS came. Subsequent to that was the
:15:57. > :16:02.influx of almost 2 million internally displaced peoples and
:16:03. > :16:08.refugees. And then parallel to that came a global crash of oil prices.
:16:09. > :16:12.Now, for better or for worse, in our case for worse, we are single
:16:13. > :16:16.commodity economy. So when that commodity crushes the way it it will
:16:17. > :16:23.have a massive impact on our fiscal situation. Yes, money came from
:16:24. > :16:28.Baghdad, it went to financing a massive public sector, we're not shy
:16:29. > :16:32.about saying that, we have an enormous public sector. You are
:16:33. > :16:37.massively overstaffed. We have a cumbersome bureaucracy that we are
:16:38. > :16:41.trying to streamline. You've got thousands of ghost employees who are
:16:42. > :16:46.receiving pay, but don't actually exist, including in the Peshmerga
:16:47. > :16:50.forces. Which is why we have started now a biometric registration
:16:51. > :16:54.programme that will biometric we register every wage earner in
:16:55. > :16:58.Kurdistan through fingerprint registration, Iris scans and facial
:16:59. > :17:03.recognition. This is an ambitious programme and it is intended to find
:17:04. > :17:08.those ghost employees, find the double dippers, who unlawfully
:17:09. > :17:12.receiving two or more salaries, and ultimately give us the answer to a
:17:13. > :17:18.simple question. Who are we paying, wide and to do what? Isn't the truth
:17:19. > :17:21.that there is the scale of what you call double dipping, boasts
:17:22. > :17:26.galleries, whatever, the scale of corruption and cronyism in Kurdistan
:17:27. > :17:32.is a reflection that for far too long the region has been run on a
:17:33. > :17:38.sort of tribal clan -based basis, without any real effort at true
:17:39. > :17:42.reform and modernisation? Our government has grown over the years,
:17:43. > :17:46.it has grown exponentially. Through that growth has come a lot of
:17:47. > :17:52.inefficiencies, bureaucracy, mismanagement and yes corruption. We
:17:53. > :17:57.are not saying that this is Switzerland and it is the model
:17:58. > :18:01.government. No. But we are brave enough to say we have shortcomings.
:18:02. > :18:05.This is sensitive for you, because you come from one of the two most
:18:06. > :18:11.prominent families in the Kurdish region, that have dominated for 40
:18:12. > :18:17.years. We are all complicit. The parties are complicit. The system is
:18:18. > :18:22.defunct and we are now sure that the shock to the system made us look
:18:23. > :18:26.inwards, that we didn't shy away from the responsibilities and we've
:18:27. > :18:29.launched a very ambitious programme and are modernising our ministry of
:18:30. > :18:33.finance, bringing in new technologies to manage customs
:18:34. > :18:37.revenues, we are revamping the tax administrations. We are changing the
:18:38. > :18:42.banking system and now biometric league registering 1.4 million wage
:18:43. > :18:46.earners. -- biometric league. We are working with the World Bank to
:18:47. > :18:52.complete overhaul electricity sector to bring down costs in levels of
:18:53. > :18:56.service to our citizens. At the same time we've got another programme
:18:57. > :18:59.with the World Bank to completely overhaul our safety net. So we've
:19:00. > :19:04.identified our problems. We've identified what needs to be done, we
:19:05. > :19:08.started on a track to do what we need to do, but we've done this by
:19:09. > :19:14.ourselves. We haven't had millions of dollars of foreign aid and
:19:15. > :19:18.assistance, like Baghdad has had, in terms of the millions of dollars
:19:19. > :19:21.that have been spent on democracy building, civil society building,
:19:22. > :19:25.institution building in Baghdad. We don't get any of that. None of the
:19:26. > :19:32.IMF assistance. We have paid the World Bank to help us reform
:19:33. > :19:36.Kurdistan. But, and here is the big but, you say you are heading in the
:19:37. > :19:39.right direction and me and my fellows in government are truly
:19:40. > :19:45.committed to cleaning up the stable, but listen to the words of a fellow
:19:46. > :19:49.party member of yours in the P UK, the former senior official both in
:19:50. > :19:53.the regional and national governments. Kurdistan, and he is
:19:54. > :20:00.talking about today's Kurdistan, is degenerating into warlordism and
:20:01. > :20:06.corrupt victims. He is a friend but he was a minister in Kurdistan. He
:20:07. > :20:10.was Prime Minister twice. There are many people today who say a lot of
:20:11. > :20:14.things, that criticise the system, that could have done more while they
:20:15. > :20:18.were in the system to fix the system. I'm not going to go back to
:20:19. > :20:22.yesterday. Your father would be one of them. I am not going back
:20:23. > :20:30.yesterday. I have a job today and that is to fix the system. Just a
:20:31. > :20:40.pickup on the point of the fear of falling into war. How great is the
:20:41. > :20:47.fear that we KDP and PUK conflicts could resume? One of the officers of
:20:48. > :20:52.the PUK was firebombed, someone was exiled out of Parliament because it
:20:53. > :20:55.wasn't like that he was an oppositionist. There is the feeling
:20:56. > :21:00.of a new hostility inside your region. There is no doubting that
:21:01. > :21:06.political tensions are high. But there is no fear of a return to
:21:07. > :21:11.conflict that plague us in the 90s. I issue about that? I am sure,
:21:12. > :21:16.because our citizens would accept that, society has moved on. The 90s
:21:17. > :21:20.was a very militarised system. The military is today still a powerful
:21:21. > :21:26.entity, and they are engaged in a very tough war against a brutal
:21:27. > :21:34.enemy, but our society today has moved on. Our society is now...
:21:35. > :21:38.There is deep political discourse, political dispute and
:21:39. > :21:42.finger-pointing, but I watched some parliamentary sessions here in the
:21:43. > :21:47.UK, 80 watched some parliamentary sessions in Australia and other much
:21:48. > :21:51.more developed democracies... But we don't have the recent history of the
:21:52. > :21:55.two main parties taking up arms against each other, which you have
:21:56. > :21:58.to worry about. We've seen civil strife in Kurdistan before and we
:21:59. > :22:01.could see it again. Which is why it's a complete red line for all
:22:02. > :22:05.parties, but more importantly the public that we serve. A final
:22:06. > :22:09.thought, taking you beyond the internal to the external. You know
:22:10. > :22:13.very well up whatever you said about the long-term process and
:22:14. > :22:17.negotiation towards independence, the US does not want to see an
:22:18. > :22:22.independent Kurdistan. Iran doesn't want to see an independent Kurdistan
:22:23. > :22:29.and you are increasingly reliant upon a cooperative relationship with
:22:30. > :22:33.Turkey and Mr Erdogan, which could turn on a sixpence, depending on
:22:34. > :22:38.what happens with Turkey. You are the mercy of outside forces and you
:22:39. > :22:42.always have been. Yes, we have been, we are the landlocked. We are in an
:22:43. > :22:47.interesting neighbourhood. But, at the same time, we are part of a
:22:48. > :22:50.country called Iraq must have any discussions for independence will
:22:51. > :22:54.start with the country of Iraq and when Kurdistan and Iraq reach an
:22:55. > :23:02.agreement on independence, then it is not for anyone else to be against
:23:03. > :23:05.it all for it. That might work in some sort of magical theory, it
:23:06. > :23:11.certainly doesn't work in practice and you know it. Iran for example is
:23:12. > :23:16.not going to stand by. We will see. What do you mean by that? You have
:23:17. > :23:19.to figure that... You put it this way, in an interesting
:23:20. > :23:23.neighbourhood. That neighbourhood isn't going to change and will make
:23:24. > :23:33.deeply interesting, one could say fragile, unstable. I'm not doubting
:23:34. > :23:39.that. But your -- it will affect your ability to deliver on what you
:23:40. > :23:43.have promised. Our first priority is to protect and service our citizens
:23:44. > :23:47.and their wishes. But the independence track is a process, it
:23:48. > :23:50.isn't something that will happen overnight. There won't be an
:23:51. > :23:57.overnight decision, there won't be a breaking news issue for the BBC to
:23:58. > :24:02.report. There will be a process and it's a way for the separation to be
:24:03. > :24:05.amicable. It has happened in these countries that have been at war
:24:06. > :24:09.before and it has happened in countries that have had a long
:24:10. > :24:15.history of internal strife. There is a chance for an amicable separation
:24:16. > :24:18.between Kurdistan and Iraq. We have to end fair, but thank you for being
:24:19. > :24:43.on HARDtalk. Thank you.