:00:11. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. My guest is comedian and
:00:18. > :00:20.satirist Trevor Noah, who presents one of the most influential
:00:21. > :00:22.programmes on American TV, the Daily Show.
:00:23. > :00:29.Born a crime to a black mother and white father in a parkade South
:00:30. > :00:33.Africa, he has navigated his way through the explosive issue of race
:00:34. > :00:38.and identity -- apartheid. With critics claiming that Donald Trump's
:00:39. > :00:44.victory has encouraged intolerant rhetoric, does he fear that the
:00:45. > :01:02.space for liberal satire such as his is shrinking?
:01:03. > :01:10.Trevor Noah, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You were born in 1984,
:01:11. > :01:15.six years before Nelson Mandela was released, your father is a white
:01:16. > :01:21.Swiss man, your mother was black, a union punishable by five years in
:01:22. > :01:26.prison. How did it feel to be born a crime? The truth is for me it didn't
:01:27. > :01:30.feel any different to being born I guess any differently, because I was
:01:31. > :01:34.really lucky in that I was insulated as a child, so I grew up under
:01:35. > :01:41.apartheid but I was spared from a lot of the ills of apartheid. My
:01:42. > :01:45.parents were in a world where they face the hills, that's what I talk
:01:46. > :01:49.about in the book, I don't make it seem like it was my struggle, it's a
:01:50. > :01:54.struggle I didn't even know I was part of essentially and by the time
:01:55. > :01:56.I became aware of it I was lucky enough South Africa abolish
:01:57. > :02:00.apartheid laws and we were actively moved into democracy. You just
:02:01. > :02:02.publish your book, born a crime, stories from a South African
:02:03. > :02:06.childhood, you said you were insulate it from that but at the
:02:07. > :02:10.beginning your mother did you from view, kept you at home, you didn't
:02:11. > :02:15.lead a normal early childhood in that respect, how did you amuse
:02:16. > :02:19.yourself, did you live in your head? That's the great thing about books,
:02:20. > :02:24.I lived in a world where I could be everywhere, thanks to books I went
:02:25. > :02:27.to France, space, Charlize chocolate factory, with Willie Wonka,
:02:28. > :02:32.everywhere. That's what I try to explain, I never tried to make it
:02:33. > :02:36.seem like I was one that was suffering, my family and people were
:02:37. > :02:42.suffering but because I was a child I only knew this world, you know? I
:02:43. > :02:46.watched a beautiful movie called Room, it's a fascinating story about
:02:47. > :02:50.a woman trapped in a bunker with her child and the child doesn't know
:02:51. > :02:54.that the world exists beyond this room because the mother has done
:02:55. > :02:58.such a great job of insulate in him, and that's what happened to ask. We
:02:59. > :03:06.were in a tough world where my mum couldn't be seen to be my mother,
:03:07. > :03:10.she couldn't be with my father, she couldn't sometimes be with me in
:03:11. > :03:13.public yet she still made that seemed like a normal world, a
:03:14. > :03:17.testament to her parenting. She really did as you describe take on a
:03:18. > :03:20.great deal on your behalf. You saw your father once a week and you say
:03:21. > :03:25.how basically if I can paraphrase, you were basically too white for
:03:26. > :03:29.your black mother and too black for your white father. What happened
:03:30. > :03:34.when you did go out in public with your mother or when you saw your
:03:35. > :03:38.father in public? Well, we very seldom went out together because
:03:39. > :03:42.that would cause commotion. My parents were always trying to
:03:43. > :03:48.obscure the fact they were a couple. As much as the country on the face
:03:49. > :03:51.of the laws was changing, you know, anyone who knows about apartheid
:03:52. > :03:54.tells you that what the government said to the international community
:03:55. > :03:58.was and what was happening on the streets, they were trying to paint a
:03:59. > :04:02.facade of a country that wasn't bad and create a world that didn't seem
:04:03. > :04:06.like it was oppressive but it really was so sometimes my mum and I would
:04:07. > :04:10.go out without my dad, my mum would often times dress as a maid to
:04:11. > :04:14.navigate this world. As a black person you didn't have the freedom
:04:15. > :04:19.is a white person had in South Africa. If you went out with a
:04:20. > :04:22.coloured friend with you in the pushchair, you look coloured. There
:04:23. > :04:27.were three ways she would do it, if my mum was with me she would dress
:04:28. > :04:30.like a maid and act like she was looking after the child of someone.
:04:31. > :04:35.If she couldn't do that she would get her friend who look like me with
:04:36. > :04:39.my skin tone to act like she was my mother and my mother would walk with
:04:40. > :04:52.us, that is how we could navigate more freely. I have pictures of me
:04:53. > :04:55.as a child with my mum in the background photo bombing the
:04:56. > :04:59.pictures, if we went with my dad, I remember one day I went to the park
:05:00. > :05:04.with them and I only remember it as a story of me going to the park with
:05:05. > :05:07.my parents, I was chasing my dad and screaming, daddy, and he ran away
:05:08. > :05:11.from me and I chased him. You thought it was a game? My mum was
:05:12. > :05:14.chasing me. Which child, even when you see kids today, they don't think
:05:15. > :05:18.anything is happening beyond them playing. You were running after your
:05:19. > :05:22.father saying daddy, you thought it was a game when he was running away
:05:23. > :05:26.but it was because he didn't want to acknowledge you in public, tough? It
:05:27. > :05:29.was completely a game for me, tough for them but exciting for me. Your
:05:30. > :05:32.black grandparents lived in Soweto and you would obviously visit them,
:05:33. > :05:36.but you say you were treated differently from your cousins and
:05:37. > :05:41.other members of the family, they treated you as an honorary white.
:05:42. > :05:45.That was one of the vestiges of apartheid. My grandfather called me
:05:46. > :05:49.master my entire life. Sometimes I could feel it was an exaggeration
:05:50. > :05:53.but it was definitely implicitly speaking to the country that we
:05:54. > :05:56.lived in. He didn't treat me any differently but he always referred
:05:57. > :06:03.to me as master. My grandmother didn't do that but she never
:06:04. > :06:07.administered beatings for instance. My grandmother often times would be
:06:08. > :06:11.the one who disciplined all the kids because we would stay together and
:06:12. > :06:15.our mums would be at work and I was the one that was never it, she told
:06:16. > :06:21.my mum she was afraid of hitting me because she didn't know how to hit a
:06:22. > :06:24.white child. The bruises were blue and green and red and she said black
:06:25. > :06:29.children she understood because it was the same but with me she was so
:06:30. > :06:32.afraid of committing the crime the government told her she would be
:06:33. > :06:39.committing. Then things got tough at home, your mother married a violent
:06:40. > :06:43.alcoholic man, Abel, your stepfather, a mechanic, you turned
:06:44. > :06:47.to pawn broking and dealing in stolen goods, you spent a week in a
:06:48. > :06:51.cell, your life could have gone down a different path? Definitely. I
:06:52. > :06:57.think that's a story all too familiar for anyone who grows up in
:06:58. > :07:01.a place where there is poverty and in a place where there is
:07:02. > :07:07.oppression. If opportunities are not afforded to communities, they are
:07:08. > :07:11.for themselves the opportunities. I always say one thing that I admire
:07:12. > :07:16.about crime is it has a fantastic outreach programme. Crime doesn't
:07:17. > :07:21.discriminate. Crime doesn't stop seeking out new opportunities for
:07:22. > :07:24.people. If you have ever lived in an informal community you will know
:07:25. > :07:30.that the lines of crime are very blurred. We call it crime now and we
:07:31. > :07:33.do know it as crime, the law, yes, but informally people trade and they
:07:34. > :07:37.are swapping things to make ends meet. I definitely could have ended
:07:38. > :07:42.up in a different place in my life, which is a story that happens all
:07:43. > :07:48.too often. But it didn't to you, you got out and you launched yourself
:07:49. > :07:52.into a career of Paul comedy and became fantastically successful in
:07:53. > :07:56.South Africa before you moved to the United States. You said in your book
:07:57. > :08:00.you were mixed but not coloured, coloured by complexion but not by
:08:01. > :08:04.culture. Do you feel now we ascribe to much of an identity to people
:08:05. > :08:08.based on their colour? Your black and you have to behave in this way,
:08:09. > :08:12.you're coloured you have to behave in this way, white and so forth. I
:08:13. > :08:17.don't think we can deny the colour has become linked to something.
:08:18. > :08:21.Let's go with this, race is a construct but that construct has
:08:22. > :08:26.been used in a lot of ways to define cultures. So now the two have almost
:08:27. > :08:32.become linked. If you have black skin it is likely you grew up in a
:08:33. > :08:35.black or African culture and if you have and African culture you will
:08:36. > :08:40.give birth to more kids, African people are black, it becomes a
:08:41. > :08:47.self-perpetuating cycle, it will never end, it is a feedback loop. So
:08:48. > :08:53.we have prescribed too much, I think we have created that world. You do
:08:54. > :08:58.see it in some countries where language is more unifying, where
:08:59. > :09:03.themes go across. I've talked to people from places like the
:09:04. > :09:08.Dominican Republic where they go, race is not really something. Other
:09:09. > :09:11.things may define your identity. People in Brazil have the same
:09:12. > :09:16.ideals. Nevertheless racial observations have formed in the
:09:17. > :09:20.early stages the backbone of your stand-up comedy career. Do you now
:09:21. > :09:24.regret some of the jokes you made? Here's an example, you said my
:09:25. > :09:35.mother, black South African, was saying get me a white guy, well, my
:09:36. > :09:38.father was white Swiss, of course he liked chocolate. That sounds funny
:09:39. > :09:41.to me even when you say it! That sounds really funny, why would I
:09:42. > :09:45.regret that? Why, some people would say that's not very funny. But the
:09:46. > :09:49.people laugh, some people could say that's not funny, that's the way it
:09:50. > :09:52.goes. An example, we have a well-established black comedian in
:09:53. > :09:56.Britain called Lenny Henry, he has said he regrets doing that kind of
:09:57. > :10:03.joke where he said he would wipe sweating brow and said I'm leaking
:10:04. > :10:08.chocolate. But that's different. It isn't, it's using chocolate. That's
:10:09. > :10:13.different, the Swiss loving chocolate is not a pejorative term.
:10:14. > :10:18.You're referring to the skin colour being chocolate. My mother is proud
:10:19. > :10:23.of being chocolate. I talk about this in the book, I saw people and
:10:24. > :10:28.the race as chocolate. I wouldn't use that, I'm that colour and I
:10:29. > :10:31.wouldn't say that. When I grew up I believed that all people were
:10:32. > :10:38.chocolate is. My mum was dark chocolate, my dad was like chocolate
:10:39. > :10:42.and I was milk chocolate. You see that as Bunny and you realise some
:10:43. > :10:46.people don't think it is funny, Lenny Henry went on to say he knew
:10:47. > :10:50.there had to be a better way at trying to put the message over, put
:10:51. > :10:54.in your jokes over without having to pick on people because of their
:10:55. > :11:00.colour or their race. His view is different from yours. Because he's
:11:01. > :11:05.Lenny Henry and I'm Trevor Noah. But he's black. He's talking about
:11:06. > :11:09.leaking chocolate, implying his skin colour isn't something that belonged
:11:10. > :11:13.to him. He is trying to save his skin colour is chocolate, you're
:11:14. > :11:20.splitting hairs here. That's what we should be doing, you are creating
:11:21. > :11:25.racial monoliths of jokes and that's not fair to do. Every single joke
:11:26. > :11:29.has a context, every single joke comes from a place. The most
:11:30. > :11:36.important thing with comedy is context. Without context no
:11:37. > :11:40.conversation is complete, without context node communication can
:11:41. > :11:45.truly... If you take that out of context, I am putting it to you,
:11:46. > :11:49.given what Lenny Henry has said, are you not guilty in some of your
:11:50. > :11:53.routines with a joke like that reinforcing prejudices and promoting
:11:54. > :11:58.stereotypes in the minds of people who may be inclined to think like
:11:59. > :12:01.that and then they'll think, oh, Trevor Noah says his mother is
:12:02. > :12:05.chocolate, I'm going to say that to my black friends and they might take
:12:06. > :12:09.offence. You could be reinforcing prejudice. You could be doing
:12:10. > :12:15.anything if you're not doing the opposite. How your action is implied
:12:16. > :12:20.doesn't define what you were doing. Let's look at another aspect of
:12:21. > :12:27.race. A few years ago you moved to the United States. Your routine as a
:12:28. > :12:30.comedian often mimicked Africans and also African Americans, and about
:12:31. > :12:35.African-Americans you have said this. You are not African but we
:12:36. > :12:38.play a log. It's a very loose term, African American, because half the
:12:39. > :12:43.time you use it for people who aren't even African. As long as your
:12:44. > :12:48.black they say African American. I didn't deliver it like that, you're
:12:49. > :12:54.not doing my jokes Justice. I'm not Trevor Noah and I'm not a comedian,
:12:55. > :13:00.satirist. I'm just asking, are they not African-American? Here's what
:13:01. > :13:04.missing, what you're doing right now is the equivalent of me saying now
:13:05. > :13:07.it's raining more than ever, I'll be here with you for ever, you can
:13:08. > :13:15.always be my friend, standing under my umbrella. Icing like a mad person
:13:16. > :13:19.right now because I'm not doing everything that was within the
:13:20. > :13:24.context of the song umbrella by Rihanna -- I seem. When you're doing
:13:25. > :13:28.comedy merely by words, I spoke it, my eyes, my voice, my connection
:13:29. > :13:32.with the audience is completely different. People can see when
:13:33. > :13:37.you're being playful. You were being playful? That is what satire is,
:13:38. > :13:42.poking holes. So you don't believe what you said? No, no, no. What
:13:43. > :13:48.you're leaving out in that whole joke is what I was talking about how
:13:49. > :13:54.in America, in America, Anglo-Saxons had successfully removed
:13:55. > :13:59.Americanisms from minorities so every single group in America had an
:14:00. > :14:05.identity attached to their Americanness except white Americans.
:14:06. > :14:09.So it's African American, Asian American, Hispanic-American, Latin
:14:10. > :14:14.American, Native American. You have Irish Americans, their white. No,
:14:15. > :14:18.no, that didn't become on a box, and this is a joke for Americans,
:14:19. > :14:23.understand that, as an American, understand that, on the boxes there
:14:24. > :14:27.is no Irish American, only white, but there is African American, Asian
:14:28. > :14:35.American, do you get what I'm saying? I was trying to make is
:14:36. > :14:37.there was a shift among the black American community to start calling
:14:38. > :14:40.themselves black American, they didn't want a definition by default,
:14:41. > :14:44.i.e. You're not white, so therefore your black. They want a hyphenated
:14:45. > :14:47.identity that linked them with the continent of their ancestors, so
:14:48. > :14:51.therefore when you say they're not really African and they're playing
:14:52. > :14:57.along, you cannot disconnect what you say from this debate that's
:14:58. > :15:01.really, you know, captured the imagination of the African-American,
:15:02. > :15:05.black American community and also, the point I want to make to you,
:15:06. > :15:10.when you say that it feeds into a debate that's current in the United
:15:11. > :15:13.States. Qua make a Army, the black Briton theatre director in the
:15:14. > :15:17.United States says he has conversations with African Americans
:15:18. > :15:21.now who says we want to go back to being called black American because
:15:22. > :15:25.we don't have anything in common with this recently arrived
:15:26. > :15:29.African-American, Somalis, Nigerians, South Africans such as
:15:30. > :15:41.you, they have different language and so on, so what you say feeds
:15:42. > :15:43.into that debate There is a difference, but these are
:15:44. > :15:46.differences that can be celebrated or use to separate people. Noting
:15:47. > :15:54.differences does not indecently make it a bad thing. The new one that is
:15:55. > :15:56.indifferent as you can do them for a good reason, the same reason we
:15:57. > :16:00.noticed different colours or flowers. That can be a good thing,
:16:01. > :16:05.if you are using it to celebrate. You can use it the same way as an
:16:06. > :16:09.apartheid to separate people. When you talk about African-Americans,
:16:10. > :16:13.the conversation I was talking about is I was travelling America and
:16:14. > :16:17.going to a lot of universities and I came to realise in many universities
:16:18. > :16:22.in America the conversation you are having now they had. They had an
:16:23. > :16:26.African-American student body and quickly they noticed a shift because
:16:27. > :16:31.they could not lump like people into a model. Because there were people
:16:32. > :16:34.from the Caribbean who said, we are not African-American. There were
:16:35. > :16:40.people from Africa who said, these are not our views, we are Africans
:16:41. > :16:44.in America. There's a difference. So what people themselves have said is
:16:45. > :16:50.you can't lump us this group. Fine. Does that difference mean it doesn't
:16:51. > :16:55.act as a cohesive form? I'm thinking in 2014 the celebrated Nigerian
:16:56. > :16:58.author said that when she visited the US she felt that her
:16:59. > :17:02.African-American classmate was annoyed with her because she didn't
:17:03. > :17:08.share their anger and she said that she was not burdened, herself, by
:17:09. > :17:15.America's terrible racial history. That difference, does it result in
:17:16. > :17:18.the African-Americans who have arrived recently in the US, such as
:17:19. > :17:22.yourself, acting differently or having a different psyche from the
:17:23. > :17:26.black Americans who are the descendants of slaves and have lived
:17:27. > :17:30.for many years in the US? I will say this, I will be careful to not
:17:31. > :17:34.comment on the experience of every single person because I am only
:17:35. > :17:39.myself and can only experience the people who are around me. What I do
:17:40. > :17:43.know is this. In terms of our racial histories, South Africa and America
:17:44. > :17:46.are similar. They talk to a black American person there are many
:17:47. > :17:51.stories that we as human beings, there are many oppressions that we
:17:52. > :17:59.have experienced through our selective oppressors. I think those
:18:00. > :18:02.are the things that many people can relate to a across-the-board. So
:18:03. > :18:07.there's more to unite, even though you say... There is definitely more
:18:08. > :18:11.to unite, especially when you are being oppressed as a group. When you
:18:12. > :18:15.are in the US as a black African man, I can tell you now that if you
:18:16. > :18:19.have an encounter with the police are not going to split hairs that
:18:20. > :18:24.you are talking about. Are you from South Africa or Detroit? That
:18:25. > :18:27.doesn't happen. But he while, a black icon, South African born, you
:18:28. > :18:31.present one of the most iconic news programmes in the US, The Daily Show
:18:32. > :18:36.you took over from John Stewart last year. Now we see a lot being made
:18:37. > :18:44.about fake news appearing on websites on the internet and that's
:18:45. > :18:47.something people lament, especially in the recent presidential campaign,
:18:48. > :18:53.because it distorts facts. You feel you use mockery, fake incredulity
:18:54. > :18:58.and exaggeration, but perhaps you are treading a fine line yourself? I
:18:59. > :19:04.don't think so, because we are operating in the space of a
:19:05. > :19:08.newspaper at his and satire. -- news parody. When you talk about fake is,
:19:09. > :19:13.the biggest difference is it never tells you it is fake news. We let
:19:14. > :19:21.you know from the beginning. We are on Comedy Central.. I tell you from
:19:22. > :19:24.the get go who I am. One thing we do maintain is factual accuracy and
:19:25. > :19:28.that is a standard and a legacy that I inherited from John Stewart and I
:19:29. > :19:32.keep it. I keep it not because of moral high ground, I believe that
:19:33. > :19:36.the jokes are based on truth and so when your true foundation is solid
:19:37. > :19:39.you will find that your jokes connect with more people. Are you
:19:40. > :19:44.not considered into the echo chamber affect? Got now we are seeing that
:19:45. > :19:49.there is a lot of personal invective on social media, traditional media,
:19:50. > :19:54.polarised opinions. Argue perhaps becoming part of that? You are
:19:55. > :20:00.implicitly a part of it. How do you not be a part of it? I will tell you
:20:01. > :20:03.one way you can not be a part of it, is trying to operate in a space
:20:04. > :20:06.where you are completely neutral, devoid of all opinion and giving
:20:07. > :20:11.everybody an equal platform to share their views. Oftentimes what we've
:20:12. > :20:16.seen is all you are doing when you do this is you are giving a platform
:20:17. > :20:22.to either of hate speech or too divisive rhetoric that is extreme
:20:23. > :20:26.and the middle keeps getting pushed over to the right. So when you look
:20:27. > :20:34.at conversations that I had, for instance when someone will be on CNN
:20:35. > :20:39.saying, "Are dues people"? You are thinking, are you going to give that
:20:40. > :20:43.person if you? If I see the world is square, the server platform? And go
:20:44. > :20:49.against science, and why server platform? The middle against things
:20:50. > :20:53.we know, why do we give these people are platform? Aussie want to give
:20:54. > :21:00.the appearance of impartiality. -- because I want to give. Should you
:21:01. > :21:06.not be fact driven? Comment is free, that is sacred, that's what we say.
:21:07. > :21:10.Do you feel now that you're concerned that there is right wing
:21:11. > :21:15.rhetoric and power now combined, and I'm thinking of Steve Bannon, who is
:21:16. > :21:22.now going to be appointed chief strategist to Donald Trump at the
:21:23. > :21:24.White House, chairman of a Conservative website, where one
:21:25. > :21:29.headline said the Confederate flag proclaims a glorious heritage. And
:21:30. > :21:33.of course the Confederate flag was used by the southern States, the
:21:34. > :21:39.slave owning states. Are you worried about that combination between
:21:40. > :21:43.right-wing rhetoric? Definitely. Donald Trump may not be saying it
:21:44. > :21:47.using his words, the people here surrounding himself with echo the
:21:48. > :21:53.sentiment that he is not creating an inclusive America, does not plan to
:21:54. > :21:57.be a person that unifies America. He just says he wants to unify America
:21:58. > :22:02.and are not saying that he himself has got far right views, I'm just
:22:03. > :22:06.saying there are those from the far right who have hailed his victory.
:22:07. > :22:11.This is interesting because look at you now as in his person. He worried
:22:12. > :22:14.the up of double position where you have to appear to not say anything
:22:15. > :22:18.that implies anything, even though it is laid out before us. So I ask
:22:19. > :22:23.you this question. You will go, somebody is not racist... I just
:22:24. > :22:28.saying, as an example, you are not far right, but if you surround
:22:29. > :22:31.yourself with those people, if you are at meetings with these people,
:22:32. > :22:36.if these people are having events where they are... If the rhetoric
:22:37. > :22:42.that is around you completely is that, are you not that? I'm just
:22:43. > :22:50.saying that there are those of the far right who are using his victory
:22:51. > :22:53.to legitimise their discourse. You backed Hillary Clinton, you urge
:22:54. > :22:55.your viewers to vote for Hillary Clinton in the presidential
:22:56. > :22:59.campaign. We already know Donald Trump has criticised the Saturday
:23:00. > :23:03.Night Live for running a sketch about him, saying he was prepared
:23:04. > :23:07.for the presidency and so on and so forth. Finally, are you Trevor Noah
:23:08. > :23:14.going to be careful with what you say about President Trump? I will
:23:15. > :23:20.say this. I will be as careful in talking about Donald Trump as he was
:23:21. > :23:26.when he was speaking about Barack Obama. Because at the end of the
:23:27. > :23:29.day, free speech, and that is something I appreciate and
:23:30. > :23:33.celebrate, free speech means that you have the right to speak out
:23:34. > :23:39.against things that you see. Any ludicrous ideas are any instances
:23:40. > :23:44.where there is hypocrisy within politics. I have that right and I
:23:45. > :23:49.intend to use it. I am not fundamentally opposed to Donald
:23:50. > :23:53.Trump as a human being, but I am in a position where every single day I
:23:54. > :24:01.will be within a country that under his presidency and so if he affords
:24:02. > :24:06.Mikel Nieve it -- comedic material, then I will do what I do, which is
:24:07. > :24:10.turn it into fodder and put it on a fake news show. Trevor Noah, thank
:24:11. > :24:33.you so much for coming on HARDtalk Hello once again,
:24:34. > :24:35.thanks for joining me. It's time to update
:24:36. > :24:38.you on the weather prospects