0:00:06 > 0:00:08Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:13I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16Reading the political mood inside Iran is notoriously difficult.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19There are so many competing interests and pressures.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23After last year's nuclear deal, it seemed the relatively moderate
0:00:23 > 0:00:26President Rouhani was in the ascendancy.
0:00:26 > 0:00:31But my guest today has reason to see things differently.
0:00:31 > 0:00:37Homa Hardfar is a Canadian-Iranian academic recently released
0:00:37 > 0:00:46after 112 days locked up in the notorious Evin Prison.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47Why did a respected anthropologist
0:00:47 > 0:00:48to become an enemy of the Iranian State?
0:01:15 > 0:01:20Homa Hardfar, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24You have had the most extraordinary experience
0:01:24 > 0:01:28inside Iran recently.
0:01:28 > 0:01:29Now, thank goodness,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32you are out of Evin Prison, out of Iran.
0:01:32 > 0:01:33How are you feeling?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35You had a lot of health problems.
0:01:35 > 0:01:36How you feeling?
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Yes, I feel much better.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44I mean, I'm still not really recovered, my health really got very
0:01:44 > 0:01:47poor while I was there, but it is getting better every day.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49And your spirits must be...?
0:01:49 > 0:01:50My spirit is very high.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54I told my colleagues I have never smiled so much in my life.
0:01:54 > 0:01:59So, despite all the pain, I continue to smile.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Now I appreciate life and freedom in a completely different way.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06We'll get back to that, what it has meant to you,
0:02:06 > 0:02:08the experience and getting away from that experience.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12But let's take this chronologically.
0:02:12 > 0:02:18Why were you in Iran early this year?
0:02:18 > 0:02:20I know you're Iranian, you have citizenship,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22but you study and work in Canada.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24What took you back to Iran?
0:02:24 > 0:02:31I had gone to visit some school friends, who were supposed to come
0:02:31 > 0:02:36with me, and we were supposed to be travelling a little bit in Iran,
0:02:36 > 0:02:39especially in the Turkish area, which I had always wanted to go to,
0:02:39 > 0:02:43but because I have no family there, I was hesitant to go.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46So she encouraged me to go.
0:02:46 > 0:02:47So she encouraged me to go.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49A very political time in Iran, because they had
0:02:50 > 0:02:50Parliamentary elections.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54Yes.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Well, she said if you come with me, I'm going to visit my family,
0:02:58 > 0:02:59and then there's also parliamentary elections,
0:02:59 > 0:03:04then you can also observe.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Because I had never been in Iran during parliamentary elections.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09I guess the point is the anthropologist in you felt
0:03:09 > 0:03:13that there was an opportunity, not just to have a nice visit
0:03:13 > 0:03:15to Iran, but to do some research work as well?
0:03:16 > 0:03:21Well, I was going to do some research work, but my research work
0:03:21 > 0:03:27for my project was archival work, so I did go to the parliament
0:03:27 > 0:03:29library and got some documents, because, essentially,
0:03:29 > 0:03:30when the Iranian Constitutional had happened...
0:03:30 > 0:03:32But once once you are an anthropologist,
0:03:32 > 0:03:34you are a researcher at all times.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37You can never take the lenses off, being an anthropologist.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41So any interaction you have with people is a form of anthropology.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44I'm fascinated by that, but I wonder whether now that
0:03:44 > 0:03:46you are here, having had the whole year of experience,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50whether you would concede you were extraordinarily naive,
0:03:50 > 0:04:08maybe complacent and naive, to think that you could go to Iran
0:04:08 > 0:04:10during a politically tumultuous time, ask questions of people
0:04:10 > 0:04:12on the street about how they are feeling about politics,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15and to think that the authorities, giving your Canadian citizenship,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18might not wonder what on earth he were doing.
0:04:18 > 0:04:19No, I was not naive.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21I had been going back and forth before.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23The presidential elections are actually the most important
0:04:23 > 0:04:26elections, but it is also the time people discuss...
0:04:26 > 0:04:27But also, I didn't...
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I had not intended to ask questions.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32I didn't ask questions from people, I was just listening mostly,
0:04:32 > 0:04:33and I was reading newspapers.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Because when you read, you walk in the street,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40you see the posters, you read the various newspapers,
0:04:40 > 0:04:41because each have their own perspectives.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45It gives you a different take on the issue, although I could read
0:04:45 > 0:04:46the newspapers sitting in Montreal.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48The bottom line is you upset people.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51One way or another, there were people inside the government
0:04:51 > 0:05:02who decided that your presence in Iran was a problem.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04How did the events unfold that saw you
0:05:04 > 0:05:09ultimately locked up inside Evin Prison?
0:05:09 > 0:05:11Because you weren't locked up immediately but by June,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14I think of 2016, you were a prisoner.
0:05:14 > 0:05:15During the elections, things were fine.
0:05:15 > 0:05:22I was happy to be in Iran and I thought I had a sense
0:05:22 > 0:05:27of what Parliament meant for women, because a lot
0:05:27 > 0:05:31of the candidates are disqualified, like 65% of all the women who had
0:05:31 > 0:05:34registered to be a candidate, and had met the qualifications
0:05:34 > 0:05:37outlined on the conditions, were actually disqualified.
0:05:37 > 0:05:4350% of men who had applied to be a candidate, including some who had
0:05:43 > 0:05:51been MPs before, were disqualified.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54So I had never thought Parliament's were that important in Iran,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56anyway, because it is the appearance of democratic elections.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01But not really a representative democracy as we know it.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04I am going to come back to your take on Iranian politics and particularly
0:06:04 > 0:06:07the role of women in Iran later.
0:06:07 > 0:06:15But, for people who do not know your story, Evin Prison
0:06:15 > 0:06:19is notorious around the world, is a pretty tough place to be.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23You, if you don't mind me saying, are a woman who is not used to that
0:06:23 > 0:06:26sort of condition, and yet, for all of your protestations
0:06:26 > 0:06:28of innocence, by June, the Iranians were determined
0:06:28 > 0:06:34to lock you up.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39I they accused you of, "dabbling in feminism
0:06:39 > 0:06:40and challenging them on security issues."
0:06:41 > 0:06:44So my question is, how come you could not persuade them that
0:06:44 > 0:06:47you were just an innocent anthropologist?
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Well, that has got a lot to do with internal politics,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52domestic politics of Iran.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55The point is that interest of yours, in the way women are politically
0:06:55 > 0:06:57represented in Muslim societies, worried them.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00Yes.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03I just want to know...
0:07:03 > 0:07:06I suppose frankly what I want to know is when you were put
0:07:06 > 0:07:08inside Evin and locked up sometimes in solitary confinement,
0:07:09 > 0:07:14how desperate did you feel, how scared did you feel?
0:07:14 > 0:07:16I didn't feel scared, because, of course, if you are Iranian
0:07:16 > 0:07:18and you are involved in social science...
0:07:18 > 0:07:24Social sciences are considered a criminal activity.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27A lot of Iranian colleagues who would do research and then
0:07:27 > 0:07:29publish their work, if it contradicts the state ideology,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32then they are with going against the national security,
0:07:32 > 0:07:44they are given five or six years, sometimes ten years in jail.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46So you kind of always know that threat is there.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50I was not feeling frightened, but I was feeling very disappointed,
0:07:50 > 0:07:52because I had thought through my scholarship I had
0:07:52 > 0:07:59been always fair.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01I was one of the people who, "Yes, I'm a feminist,
0:08:01 > 0:08:04yes, I am a secularist, yes I disagree absolutely
0:08:04 > 0:08:08with compulsory hijab, which was one of their concerns,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11but I have no hesitation to give, say, when something positive has
0:08:11 > 0:08:19happened in Iran, to talk about it all right about it.
0:08:19 > 0:08:27They interrogated you for many hours at a time.
0:08:27 > 0:08:34I think at one point they said, "You may well leave here dead.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36You might be here for 15 years."
0:08:36 > 0:08:38Yes, at some point they told me...
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Well, I got them engaged a lot of discussion.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42I think sometimes I found that they were interested
0:08:42 > 0:08:46in what I had to say, but then, when they were trying
0:08:46 > 0:08:46to intimidate me...
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Because that's part of the technique.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51They tell you, you are going to get ten or 15 years.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55And, at your age, by then you are dead and we will put
0:08:55 > 0:08:58you in a casket and send you back to Canada.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01And I said, well, as long as you don't bury me like that here.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06But also, at my age, I am 65 years, I have lived the life I have chosen,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10I have achieved many of my goals, and that's more than most people can
0:09:10 > 0:09:13claim, therefore if the last ten years or five years of what ever
0:09:13 > 0:09:16is left of my life I am spending in Evin Prison,
0:09:16 > 0:09:17so be it.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21I don't know whether you would use the word torture, but there are some
0:09:21 > 0:09:24things about what they did to you that strike me
0:09:24 > 0:09:25as psychologically something akin to that.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28For example, I think they found the music that was played
0:09:28 > 0:09:31at your husband's funeral, because he died not so long ago.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34And they played that to you in an effort to sort
0:09:34 > 0:09:35of break your spirit.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Well, not just about me, but I observed also with other women
0:09:39 > 0:09:41who later were my cell-mates, that they were trying
0:09:41 > 0:09:42to make them cry.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I guess this was one thing that they had not been able
0:09:46 > 0:09:47to do to me.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50Because I accepted my fate from the day they locked me in.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52I said ten years.
0:09:52 > 0:09:5515 years, five years.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57Anyway, I access to that fate right away.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01So what else could they intimidate me with?
0:10:01 > 0:10:05So then they played the music,
0:10:05 > 0:10:10saying, we wanted you to remember Canada.
0:10:10 > 0:10:11And I asked them to stop.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14I said, I always remember Canada and my family,
0:10:14 > 0:10:18you don't need to play the music.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20They said, "No, we want you to hear."
0:10:20 > 0:10:23They continued, as I argued I did not want to.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27And in the end, I got so frustrated, I told them, I guess this is part
0:10:27 > 0:10:28of the Islamic human rights.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31Because they continuously told me, we don't need international human
0:10:31 > 0:10:37rights, we have Islamic human rights.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40But once I said, "I guess this is part of Islamic human
0:10:41 > 0:10:41rights," they stopped.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45On another occasion they came and brought a picture of my mother
0:10:45 > 0:10:48looking very sad, standing at my father's graveyard, in London.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51They said, "Oh, we brought a picture from your family,
0:10:51 > 0:10:56so it reminds you of them.
0:10:56 > 0:11:03I said, "I do not need a picture, my family is in my mind,
0:11:03 > 0:11:07I do not need pictures for it to remember them."
0:11:07 > 0:11:10But they said, "Anyway, we have brought it."
0:11:10 > 0:11:11I was behind a one-way mirror.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14I could not see them, but they pushed the picture for me
0:11:15 > 0:11:16and I saw what it was.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19I mean, I knew what they were doing to me, but nonetheless
0:11:19 > 0:11:20it was upsetting.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Did you try to record the nature of the conversations you had
0:11:24 > 0:11:24with your interrogators?
0:11:24 > 0:11:27After the third day, I was in the cell, blindfolded,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29going downstairs in the basement for interrogation.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31Then I actually did decide, while I am here,
0:11:32 > 0:11:32I'm an anthropologist.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34Observation is the main method of anthropologist,
0:11:34 > 0:11:36that is what distinguishes us from sociologist.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41It is not the fieldwork I would have chosen to do and I could not do it
0:11:41 > 0:11:53anyway even if I wanted in this method.
0:11:53 > 0:11:58So I started to make mental notes and then when I would come back
0:11:58 > 0:12:02to the cell, because I could not sleep there and they refuse
0:12:02 > 0:12:05to give me a sleeping pill,
0:12:05 > 0:12:12but all I had was my toothbrush and the walls of the cell are marble
0:12:12 > 0:12:15stone because they don't want prisoners to carve on it.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18So I started to just write on the wall, just pretending
0:12:18 > 0:12:21I was writing, just like writing on the board.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23So I continued making notes every day.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27I had headings and subheadings and I would come the next day,
0:12:27 > 0:12:31a new thing would happen, I would think about it and maybe
0:12:31 > 0:12:33revise my note and I continued...
0:12:33 > 0:12:37So, in a way, you were trying to empower yourself by turning this
0:12:37 > 0:12:40awful experience into a form of anthropological research?
0:12:40 > 0:12:40I did...
0:12:40 > 0:12:46I did turn it into...
0:12:47 > 0:12:50But, yes, now when I think of it, yes, I did empower myself
0:12:50 > 0:12:55in that way.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57Basically they were using their power over me,
0:12:58 > 0:13:02but I empowered myself by doing the same thing to them.
0:13:02 > 0:13:08We know, and it comes back to this point I suppose about the context
0:13:08 > 0:13:11in which you found yourself in prison, we know that quite
0:13:11 > 0:13:13a number of dual nationals, Canadians, Americans,
0:13:13 > 0:13:15and indeed British citizens, who also have Iranian citizenship
0:13:15 > 0:13:17have been imprisoned on charges which many critics regard
0:13:17 > 0:13:21as without merit.
0:13:21 > 0:13:27Now, one of them, which is a case that has become very well-known
0:13:27 > 0:13:30the UK is that of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33She's a young woman in her 30s with a child in Iran.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34She'd been there visiting family.
0:13:35 > 0:13:35She was arrested.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38The child is now currently staying with the grandparents in Tehran.
0:13:38 > 0:13:39You met her.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43Yes, I spent one night with her in a cell.
0:13:43 > 0:13:50I was in solitary confinement.
0:13:50 > 0:13:58I guess there were people coming to inspect the prison
0:13:58 > 0:14:01so they moved me from solitary to a room and two other
0:14:01 > 0:14:02women were there.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03I had heard of her name.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05I knew that she was British- Iranian.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08That night we were there, we chatted mostly about her daughter
0:14:08 > 0:14:09and how she felt.
0:14:09 > 0:14:15And the next day they moved her from that cell.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16How was she?
0:14:16 > 0:14:18She was, of course, very upset.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20I know that she missed her daughter terribly.
0:14:20 > 0:14:27And she was quite confused about why they have held her,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30but they kept promising her they would let her go
0:14:30 > 0:14:33and free her and they asked her to sign documents,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37which I guess she had, but they had also told her not
0:14:37 > 0:14:40to talk about this to other cell-mates, so she was a bit
0:14:40 > 0:14:43hesitant to tell me the whole story.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48But I met her also on the day that I went to court.
0:14:48 > 0:14:53She had got initially ten years.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57That was the day they took me to court with her.
0:14:57 > 0:14:58We could see each other.
0:14:58 > 0:14:59We said hi, but we were not allowed to talk to each other.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01So she is now convicted.
0:15:01 > 0:15:08Five years for spying.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11We understand from her family that when you were released in September,
0:15:11 > 0:15:14she, for a short time, believed that might be
0:15:14 > 0:15:17a signal that she too might be on her way out,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20now of course that hasn't happened.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23Can you imagine what she must be feeling like right now?
0:15:23 > 0:15:28Well, I know from other cell-mates that had met her, before my release,
0:15:28 > 0:15:29that she has been very upset.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33She cries a lot.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37She has gone through, I think, maybe depression.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40She really misses her daughter and she is worried because her home
0:15:40 > 0:15:47and her husband are here.
0:15:47 > 0:15:52For a country and state that claims the family is the most important
0:15:52 > 0:15:54unit and they respect it and encourage people
0:15:54 > 0:15:57to have children,
0:15:57 > 0:16:01in fact, one thing they have against me is I did not
0:16:01 > 0:16:06have a child of my own.
0:16:06 > 0:16:13When they released me, I actually thought they were releasing Nazanin.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16And on the tail of her freedom they are releasing me.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I was quite surprised when I finally got to the jet and saw
0:16:20 > 0:16:21that she was not there.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24You talk about your situation and as though you were a pawn
0:16:24 > 0:16:27in a political game.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31I want you to reflect on this.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33There have been other prisoners in Iran, I am thinking
0:16:33 > 0:16:38of one American journalist who ultimately was released.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42It was clear, the US was quite open, there had been negotiations
0:16:42 > 0:16:46and a sort of deal done that involved some financial transactions
0:16:46 > 0:16:50as well between the Iranian and US governments.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54When you were hot news in Canada and there was a campaign
0:16:54 > 0:16:57of your colleagues and friends and supporters demanding...
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Or a campaign on your behalf from the Canadian government,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03the government said, we want her out, the Iranians must
0:17:03 > 0:17:07release her, but we will not do any sort of deal to get her out.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11What is your feeling now on whether there is any legitimate
0:17:11 > 0:17:13grounds for negotiation and deal-making when it comes
0:17:13 > 0:17:18to these situations?
0:17:18 > 0:17:23That's a hard question.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26I was not actually of much value to the Iranians
0:17:26 > 0:17:29in terms of negotiation.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33For one thing, I had accepted my fate, for the other thing,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I guess they would have loved for me to be an American
0:17:36 > 0:17:37or British citizen.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39I was...
0:17:39 > 0:17:43Of two other nationalities, Irish and Canadian, which,
0:17:43 > 0:17:46in terms of international politics of Iran, does not play a major role.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50So that was one aspect.
0:17:50 > 0:18:02But also I know that because we have an unelected body
0:18:02 > 0:18:10of government, which is usually the president and the minister,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12and non-elected bodies, which is the Supreme Leader and then
0:18:13 > 0:18:15the judiciary and the Revolutionary Guard police, radio and television,
0:18:15 > 0:18:19which are the monopoly of the state in Iran, and, of course, some very
0:18:19 > 0:18:20huge charity organisations.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23The Revolutionary Guard especially has been unhappy about the deal,
0:18:23 > 0:18:25even though the Supreme Leader obviously had agreed,
0:18:25 > 0:18:31because without his agreement, no deal would have been finalised.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35But they are trying to embarrass their elected body.
0:18:35 > 0:18:41Are you guessing, or do you know this?
0:18:41 > 0:18:46Well, it is not only me.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49In my case, there is but are Baquer Namazi and Siamak Namazi,
0:18:49 > 0:18:51but who are dual national American Iranians.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Baquer Namazi is 80 years old and he has been a Unicef
0:18:55 > 0:19:03employee and working in various countries in the Middle East.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07There are many others, other dual nationals.
0:19:07 > 0:19:15They keep them in terms of, especially say Nazanin,
0:19:15 > 0:19:18if she was an ordinary prisoner, after her court case was finished,
0:19:18 > 0:19:20she should have been transferred to prison,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22not the detention centre, but she is locked away
0:19:22 > 0:19:24in a detention centre.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26She is in a special part of the Evin complex.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Let's get back to the big picture which you touched upon earlier
0:19:30 > 0:19:33when you talk to about the way in which, over the years, you -
0:19:33 > 0:19:37you believe - have always shown great respect to Iran and you have
0:19:37 > 0:19:40not been one of its fiercest critics and you have tries
0:19:40 > 0:19:44-- tried to place the role of women, for example, in a context in Iran.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47You haven't just been out right critical of everything they do.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51Do you now look at Iran and think, maybe I got it wrong,
0:19:51 > 0:19:54maybe I was too soft on them, maybe I've misjudged how hard line
0:19:54 > 0:19:57and how ideological the Iranian government is ready to be?
0:19:57 > 0:20:01What has happened is that in more recent years,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04the Revolutionary Guard and conservatives, especially
0:20:04 > 0:20:10hardline conservatives, have lost ground, and they have lost
0:20:10 > 0:20:14the legitimacy maybe they carried for decades,
0:20:14 > 0:20:18they are now a bit desperate to hang onto power, to create fear.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23I am wondering, in today's Iran, when you look at the role of women,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26which is one of the specialisms of yours, do you see things
0:20:27 > 0:20:29getting better or worse?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31Well, it depends which class you talk.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34A lot of the traditional women, who then because of their religious
0:20:34 > 0:20:39beliefs, their family would not let them engage.
0:20:39 > 0:20:45They go to the university and get jobs, or be independent.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47They have had that much right.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52But even they don't want the compulsory hijab.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56The fact is whether they cover you by law, you take the veil off,
0:20:56 > 0:21:02or you put the veil on, the choice is taken away from you.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Let's bring it back to the personal before we close.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08You are an Iranian citizen, but now, of course, having had the experience
0:21:08 > 0:21:12you've just had in Evin Prison, I would imagine it is pretty
0:21:12 > 0:21:15unlikely you will be going back to Iran any time soon?
0:21:15 > 0:21:18Well, I am not planning to go back.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Do you think you will ever go back to the home...
0:21:21 > 0:21:25It is your native land.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29Well, one never knows the future.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33At the moment, I retired because I have a lot
0:21:33 > 0:21:37of writing project to finish.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40And now, of course, I'm going to write about my experience
0:21:40 > 0:21:42and research in anthropology of interrogation,
0:21:42 > 0:21:44which I call my research project in Evin.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46I'm going to write about that.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48I'm just interested in what is in your heart.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51I think you said to somebody after you came out that
0:21:51 > 0:21:54you felt so brokenhearted that your own country could have
0:21:54 > 0:21:55behaved in this way.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59I wonder, in a sense, why you were so surprised,
0:21:59 > 0:22:04given everything that we know about Iran since the revolution.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Because I felt the question of women, and talking about that,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11and working with the Constitution of Iran, which, thank God,
0:22:11 > 0:22:19I knew more about the Constitution of Iran than my interrogators knew,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22so I could defend myself.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24It gives that right of people to dissent.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28I mean, when I am in Iran, I put the scarf on, but I talk
0:22:28 > 0:22:30about the fact that I oppose it.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34It is the law, but I have the right to campaign to change the law.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37They cannot take away this right from people.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38I felt...
0:22:38 > 0:22:40Because they continuously claimed when they interrogated me,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43that they have to to defend the revolution, and I felt
0:22:43 > 0:22:46all the way a revolution betrayed, because the revolution that happened
0:22:46 > 0:22:48was not about...
0:22:48 > 0:22:51The major demand was about democracy.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55And, yes, independence, too, but it was not about some other
0:22:55 > 0:23:00institution, institution to force their will on the rest
0:23:00 > 0:23:06of the population.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10The similarity of their approach to what it was at the end
0:23:10 > 0:23:15of the Shah's time, which was, you know, claiming more opposition
0:23:15 > 0:23:17and therefore claiming, commanding more resources
0:23:17 > 0:23:19and putting more people in jail.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22And becoming ever more authoritarian.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24Therefore the alienation of the population from
0:23:24 > 0:23:25the state increased.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27It is happening again.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29You say that now you see similarities between the end
0:23:29 > 0:23:32of the Shah and the current state of the Islamic Republic.
0:23:32 > 0:23:37In a word, are you optimistic about Iran's future, or not?
0:23:37 > 0:23:40I am optimistic about Iran's future.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Not necessarily about Iran as a state, but if you walk
0:23:43 > 0:23:47in the streets of Tehran and other major cities, as I hear
0:23:47 > 0:23:55from my colleagues, that the citizens know their rights.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59And once the citizens know their rights and the possibilities,
0:23:59 > 0:24:03they are not going to just put up with a lot of oppression,
0:24:03 > 0:24:05and that makes me optimistic.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09But I am not sure where the state is heading.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12We have to end there, but Homa Hardfar, it's great to see
0:24:12 > 0:24:15you in the studio and thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18Thank you for the invitation.