0:00:00 > 0:00:02Now it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11My guest is comedian and satirist Trevor Noah,
0:00:11 > 0:00:14who presents one of the most influential programmes on American
0:00:14 > 0:00:17TV, the Daily Show.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Born a crime to a black mother and white father in apartheid
0:00:21 > 0:00:24South Africa, he has navigated his way through the explosive issue
0:00:25 > 0:00:28of race and identity.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30With critics claiming that Donald Trump's victory has
0:00:30 > 0:00:34encouraged intolerant rhetoric, does he fear that the space
0:00:34 > 0:00:40for liberal satire such as his is shrinking?
0:00:58 > 0:00:59Trevor Noah, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:59 > 0:01:00Thank you, Zeinab.
0:01:00 > 0:01:05You were born in 1984, six years before Nelson Mandela was released.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Your father is a white Swiss man, your mother was black,
0:01:09 > 0:01:14a union punishable by five years in prison.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18How did it feel to be born a crime?
0:01:18 > 0:01:22Well, the truth is for me it didn't feel any different to being born
0:01:22 > 0:01:25I guess any differently, because I was really lucky in that
0:01:26 > 0:01:29I was insulated as a child, so I grew up under apartheid
0:01:29 > 0:01:33but I was spared from a lot of the ills of apartheid.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36My parents were in a world where they were the ones who faced
0:01:36 > 0:01:40the ills, that's what I talk about in the book, I don't make it
0:01:40 > 0:01:44seem like it was my struggle, it's a struggle I didn't even know
0:01:44 > 0:01:47I was part of, essentially, and by the time I became aware
0:01:48 > 0:01:50of it I was lucky enough South Africa abolished apartheid
0:01:50 > 0:01:53laws and then we very rapidly moved into democracy.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56You just published your book called Born a Crime: Stories
0:01:56 > 0:01:59from a South African Childhood.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02You've just said now that you were insulated from
0:02:02 > 0:02:05that but at the beginning your mother actually hid you from view,
0:02:05 > 0:02:09kept you at home, you didn't lead a normal early childhood in that
0:02:09 > 0:02:12respect, how did you amuse yourself, did you live in your
0:02:12 > 0:02:13head or something?
0:02:13 > 0:02:14That's the great thing about books.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17I lived in a world where I could be anywhere.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19Thanks to books I travelled the world.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21I've been to France and to space.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23I've been to Charlie's Chocolate Factory with Willie Wonka,
0:02:23 > 0:02:24I've been everywhere.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28That's what I try to explain, I never tried to make it seem
0:02:28 > 0:02:29like I was one who was suffering.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33My family and people were suffering but because I was a child I only
0:02:33 > 0:02:35knew this world, you know?
0:02:35 > 0:02:38I watched a beautiful movie called Room.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42It's a fascinating story about a woman who's trapped
0:02:42 > 0:02:45in a bunker with her child, and the child doesn't know
0:02:45 > 0:02:48that the world exists beyond this room because the mother has done
0:02:48 > 0:02:52such a great job of insulating him, and that's what happened to us.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55We were in a tough world where my mum couldn't be seen
0:02:55 > 0:02:58to be my mother, she couldn't be with my father, she couldn't
0:02:58 > 0:03:02sometimes be with me in public yet she still made that seemed
0:03:02 > 0:03:04like a normal world, which is a testament
0:03:04 > 0:03:05to her parenting.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08She really did, as you describe, take on a great deal on your behalf.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12You saw your father once a week and you say how basically,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16if I can paraphrase it, you were basically too white
0:03:16 > 0:03:22for your black mother and too black for your white father.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25So what happened when you did go out in public with your mother
0:03:25 > 0:03:29or when you saw your father in public?
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Well, we very seldom went out together because that
0:03:32 > 0:03:33would cause commotion.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36My parents were always trying to obscure the fact
0:03:36 > 0:03:38that they were a couple.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43As much as the country on the face of the laws was changing,
0:03:43 > 0:03:46you know, anyone who knows about apartheid tells you that
0:03:46 > 0:03:48what the government said to the international community
0:03:48 > 0:03:51was not what was happening on the streets, they were trying
0:03:51 > 0:03:54to paint a facade of a country that wasn't bad, they were trying
0:03:55 > 0:03:58to create a world that didn't seem like it was oppressive
0:03:58 > 0:03:59but it really was.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02So sometimes my mum and I would go out with my dad.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05For instance, my mum would often times dress as a maid
0:04:05 > 0:04:06to navigate this world.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09As a black person you didn't have the freedoms a white person had
0:04:10 > 0:04:10in South Africa.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14She'd go out with a coloured friend pushing you in the pushchair
0:04:14 > 0:04:16because you look coloured.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20There were three ways she would do it.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23If my mum was with me, she would dress like a maid and act
0:04:23 > 0:04:28like she was looking after the child of someone.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32If she couldn't do that, she would get her friend who looked
0:04:32 > 0:04:36like me, who was my skin tone, to act like she was my mother
0:04:36 > 0:04:39and my mother would walk with us, that is how we could
0:04:39 > 0:04:40navigate more freely.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44I have pictures of me as a child with my mum in the background photo
0:04:44 > 0:04:45bombing the pictures.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47If we went with my dad...
0:04:47 > 0:04:50I remember one day I went to the park with them and I only
0:04:51 > 0:04:54remember it as a story of me going to the park with my parents.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58My mum tells me of how we went to the park and I started
0:04:58 > 0:05:01chasing my dad and screaming, "Daddy," and he ran away from me
0:05:01 > 0:05:02and I chased him.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04You thought it was a game?
0:05:04 > 0:05:06And my mum started chasing me.
0:05:06 > 0:05:06Which child...
0:05:06 > 0:05:09Even when you see kids today, they don't think anything
0:05:09 > 0:05:10is happening beyond them playing.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13You were running after your father saying "Daddy, daddy."
0:05:13 > 0:05:16You thought it was a game when he was running away but it's
0:05:16 > 0:05:19because he didn't want to acknowledge you in public, tough?
0:05:19 > 0:05:23It was completely a game for me, so tough for them but really
0:05:23 > 0:05:23exciting for me.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26Your black grandparents lived in Soweto and you would visit them
0:05:26 > 0:05:29obviously, but you say you were treated differently
0:05:29 > 0:05:31from your cousins and other members of the family,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33they treated you as an honorary white.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37That was one of the vestiges of apartheid.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40My grandfather called me master my entire life.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Sometimes I could feel it was an exaggeration
0:05:42 > 0:05:45but it was definitely implicitly speaking to the country
0:05:45 > 0:05:47that we lived in.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50He didn't treat me any differently but he always referred
0:05:50 > 0:05:52to me as master.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54My grandmother didn't do that but she never administered
0:05:54 > 0:05:58beatings for instance.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01My grandmother oftentimes would be the one who disciplined all the kids
0:06:01 > 0:06:04because we would stay together and our mums would all be at work,
0:06:05 > 0:06:07and I was the one that was never hit.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10She used to tell my mum she was afraid of hitting me
0:06:10 > 0:06:14because she didn't know how to hit a "white" child.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18The bruises were blue and green and red and she says black children
0:06:18 > 0:06:21she understood because it's all the same, but with me
0:06:21 > 0:06:23she was so afraid of committing the crime the government
0:06:23 > 0:06:25told her she would be committing.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29Then things got tough at home, your mother married a violent
0:06:29 > 0:06:33alcoholic man, Abel, your stepfather, a mechanic.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37You turned to pawn broking and also dealing in stolen goods.
0:06:37 > 0:06:38You spent a week in a cell.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41Your life could have gone down a different path?
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Definitely.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47I think that's a story all too familiar for anyone who grows up
0:06:47 > 0:06:49in a place where there is poverty and in a place
0:06:49 > 0:06:53where there is oppression.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56If opportunities are not afforded to communities,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59they afford themselves the opportunities.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03I always say one thing that I admire about crime is that it has
0:07:03 > 0:07:06a fantastic outreach programme.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Crime doesn't discriminate.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11Crime doesn't stop seeking out new opportunities for people.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15If you have ever lived in an informal community
0:07:15 > 0:07:18you will know that the lines of crime are very blurred.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22We call it crime now and we do know it as crime,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25the law, yes, but informally people trade and people are swapping things
0:07:25 > 0:07:27and trying to make ends meet.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30I definitely could have ended up in a different place in my life,
0:07:30 > 0:07:34which is a story that happens all too often.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38But it didn't to you, you got out and you launched
0:07:38 > 0:07:41yourself into a career of comedy and so on and became fantastically
0:07:41 > 0:07:44successful in South Africa before you moved to the United States.
0:07:44 > 0:07:49You say in your book you were mixed but not coloured,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52coloured by complexion but not by culture.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56Do you feel now we ascribe to much of an identity to people based
0:07:56 > 0:08:00on their colour?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Because you're black you have to behave in this way,
0:08:03 > 0:08:06because you're coloured you have to behave in this way,
0:08:06 > 0:08:07white and so on and forth.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11I don't think we can deny the colour has become linked to something.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14So let's go with this, basically race is a construct
0:08:14 > 0:08:17but that construct has been used in a lot of ways to define cultures.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20So now the two have almost become linked.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24So if you have black skin it is likely you grew up in a black
0:08:24 > 0:08:27or African culture and now if you have an African culture
0:08:27 > 0:08:29you're going to give birth to more children,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32those children will be black and so now black people have African
0:08:32 > 0:08:35cultures, African people are black, it becomes, you know,
0:08:35 > 0:08:37a self-perpetuating cycle, it's never going to end,
0:08:37 > 0:08:38it's a feedback loop.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41So we have prescribed too much to it, I think we have
0:08:41 > 0:08:45created that world.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48You do see it in some countries where language is more unifying,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51where themes go across.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53You know, I've talked to people from places
0:08:53 > 0:08:56like the Dominican Republic where they go, race
0:08:56 > 0:08:57is not really something.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Other things may define your identity.
0:09:00 > 0:09:01Exactly.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04People in Brazil have the same ideals.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Nevertheless, racial observations have formed in the early stages
0:09:06 > 0:09:09the backbone of your stand-up comedy career.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Do you now regret some of the jokes you made?
0:09:12 > 0:09:15Let me give you an example, you said my mother, black
0:09:15 > 0:09:19South African, was saying, "Get me a white guy.
0:09:19 > 0:09:25Well, my father was white Swiss, of course he liked chocolate."
0:09:25 > 0:09:28That sounds funny to me even when you say it!
0:09:28 > 0:09:28That sounded really funny.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Why would I regret that?
0:09:30 > 0:09:31Why would you regret that?
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Because some people say that's not very funny.
0:09:35 > 0:09:36But the people laugh.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Everyone can say something is not really funny.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41Just like the way some people don't like Indian food.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Let me give you an example.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45We have a well-established black comedian in Britain called
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Lenny Henry, he has said he regrets doing that kind of joke
0:09:49 > 0:09:52where he said he would wipe his sweating brow and say,
0:09:52 > 0:09:55"Huh, I'm leaking chocolate."
0:09:55 > 0:09:58But that is different.
0:09:58 > 0:09:59It's not, it's using chocolate.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01That is different.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05The Swiss love chocolate is not a pejorative term.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08You're referring to your mother's skin colour as chocolate.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11Yes, because my mother is proud to be dark, beautiful chocolate.
0:10:11 > 0:10:12That's what she's saying.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15I talk about this in the book as well, I saw people
0:10:15 > 0:10:17and race as chocolate.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21I wouldn't use that, I'm that colour and I wouldn't say that.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25When I grew up I believed that all people were chocolates.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28My mum was dark chocolate, my dad was white chocolate
0:10:28 > 0:10:30and I was milk chocolate.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32So I see all people as chocolates.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36You see that as funny but do you not realise that some people
0:10:36 > 0:10:37might not like that?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Lenny Henry went on to say, that joke about how he was leaking
0:10:41 > 0:10:44chocolate, he says, "I knew there had to be a better way
0:10:44 > 0:10:47of trying to put the message over, putting your jokes over
0:10:47 > 0:10:49without having to pick on people because of their colour
0:10:49 > 0:10:50or their race."
0:10:50 > 0:10:52His view is different from yours.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Because he's Lenny Henry and I'm Trevor Noah.
0:10:54 > 0:10:55But also he's black.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58He's talking about leaking chocolate, implying his skin colour
0:10:58 > 0:11:00was not something that belonged to him.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02That's a different idea.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05He is trying to say his skin colour is chocolate,
0:11:05 > 0:11:06you're splitting hairs here.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08That's exactly what we should be doing.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10I'm not sure I would say what you said.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12You're creating racial jokes...
0:11:12 > 0:11:17You're creating monoliths of jokes and that's not fair to do.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20Every single joke has a context, every single joke comes
0:11:20 > 0:11:22from a place.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26The most important thing with comedy is context.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Without context, no conversation is complete.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34Without context, no communication can truly appreciate...
0:11:34 > 0:11:37If you take that out of context, so I'm putting it to you,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40given what Lenny Henry has said, are you not guilty in some
0:11:40 > 0:11:43of your routines with a joke like that of reinforcing prejudices
0:11:44 > 0:11:48and promoting stereotypes in the minds of people who may be
0:11:48 > 0:11:51inclined to think like that and then they'll think,
0:11:51 > 0:11:55"Oh, Trevor Noah says his mother's s chocolate, I'm going to say that
0:11:55 > 0:11:57to my black friends," and they might take offence.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00You could be reinforcing prejudice.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05You could be doing anything if you're not doing the opposite.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09How your action is implied does not define what you were doing.
0:12:09 > 0:12:13Let's look at another aspect of race.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17A few years ago you moved to the United States.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Your routine as a comedian often mimicked Africans and also
0:12:19 > 0:12:23African Americans, and about African Americans
0:12:23 > 0:12:26you have said this.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28"You are not African but we play along.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31It's a very loose term, African American, because half
0:12:31 > 0:12:34the time you use it for people who aren't even African.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38As long as you're black they say African American."
0:12:38 > 0:12:41I didn't deliver it like that, you're not doing my jokes justice.
0:12:41 > 0:12:42All right, yeah.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44I'm not Trevor Noah and I'm not a comedian, satirist.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I'm just asking, are they not African American?
0:12:47 > 0:12:49Here's what you're missing.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52What you're doing right now is the equivalent of me saying,
0:12:52 > 0:12:59"Now it's raining more than ever, I'll be here with you forever.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01You can always be my friend, standing under my umbrella.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03'Ella, 'ella, 'ella, 'ella, 'ella, 'ella,
0:13:03 > 0:13:05'ella, 'ella, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, 'ella, 'ella,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08'ella, ay ay ..."
0:13:08 > 0:13:11I seem like a mad person right now because I'm not doing everything
0:13:11 > 0:13:15that was within the context of the song Umbrella by Rihanna.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18When you're doing comedy merely by words, I spoke it,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20my eyes, my voice, my connection with an audience
0:13:21 > 0:13:23is completely different.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25People can see when you're being playful.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28People can see when you're saying something you don't believe.
0:13:28 > 0:13:29You were being playful about that?
0:13:29 > 0:13:31That is what satire is, you're poking holes.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33So you don't believe what you said?
0:13:33 > 0:13:37No, no, no.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40What you're leaving out in that whole joke is what I was talking
0:13:40 > 0:13:44about was how in America, in America, Anglo-Saxons had
0:13:44 > 0:13:49successfully removed Americanisms from minorities so every single
0:13:50 > 0:13:52group in America had an identity attached to their Americanness
0:13:52 > 0:13:56except white Americans.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58So it's African American, Asian American, Hispanic American,
0:13:58 > 0:14:03Latin American, Native American.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06I don't know, you have Irish Americans, they're white.
0:14:06 > 0:14:07You have Polish Americans.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09No, no, that didn't become on a box.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11And this is a joke for Americans, understand that.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13So as an American, they understand this.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16On the boxes there is no Irish American, there is only white,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19but there is African American, and there is Asian American,
0:14:19 > 0:14:21do you get what I'm saying?
0:14:21 > 0:14:23So that's the whole point of the joke.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27The point I was trying to make is there was a shift amongst
0:14:27 > 0:14:29the black American community to start calling themselves African
0:14:29 > 0:14:30American.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33They didn't want a definition by default, ie you were not white,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36so therefore you were black.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39They wanted to have a hyphenated identity that linked them
0:14:39 > 0:14:41with the continent of their ancestors, and therefore
0:14:41 > 0:14:43when you say, "Oh, they're not really African, they're playing
0:14:43 > 0:14:46along," you cannot disconnect what you say from this debate that's
0:14:47 > 0:14:49really, you know, captured the imagination of the African
0:14:49 > 0:14:52American, black American community.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56And also, the point I want to make to you, when you say that it now
0:14:57 > 0:15:03feeds into a debate that's current in the United States.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05Kwame Kwei-Armah, the black Briton theatre director
0:15:05 > 0:15:08in the United States says he has conversations with African Americans
0:15:08 > 0:15:12now who say we want to go back to being called black American
0:15:12 > 0:15:15because we don't have anything in common with these recently
0:15:15 > 0:15:19arrived African Americans, be they Somalis, Nigerians,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21South Africans such as you, they have different language
0:15:21 > 0:15:23and so on.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27So what you say feeds into that debate and it sounds like you're
0:15:27 > 0:15:30saying there is a difference between African Americans and black
0:15:30 > 0:15:30Americans?
0:15:30 > 0:15:34There definitely is a difference.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36Right.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38But these are differences that can be celebrated or used
0:15:38 > 0:15:39to separate people.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44Noting differences does not implicitly make it a bad thing.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49When you are noticing differences, you can note them for good reasons,
0:15:49 > 0:15:52the same reason we notice different colours or flowers.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56That can be a good thing, if you're using it to celebrate.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59You can use it the same way apartheid used it
0:15:59 > 0:15:59to separate people.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01When you talk about African-Americans, the one
0:16:01 > 0:16:04conversation that I was talking about is I was travelling America
0:16:04 > 0:16:07and I was going to a lot of universities and I came
0:16:07 > 0:16:09to realise, in many universities in America,
0:16:09 > 0:16:13the conversation you are having now, they had.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17They had an African-American student body and very quickly they noticed
0:16:17 > 0:16:22a shift because they could not lump black people into a monolith.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Because there were people from the Caribbean who said,
0:16:25 > 0:16:28we are not African-American.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30There were people from Africa who were like, these
0:16:30 > 0:16:33are not our views, we are Africans in America.
0:16:33 > 0:16:34There's a difference.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37So what people themselves did was said, you can't just lump us
0:16:37 > 0:16:38into this group.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40Fine.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42And does that difference mean that it doesn't act
0:16:42 > 0:16:45as a cohesive form?
0:16:45 > 0:16:47I'm thinking, in 2014, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50the celebrated Nigerian author, she said that
0:16:50 > 0:16:54when she visited the US she felt that her African-American classmate
0:16:54 > 0:16:56was annoyed with her because she didn't share their anger
0:16:56 > 0:17:00and she said that she was not burdened, herself, by America's
0:17:00 > 0:17:05terrible racial history.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08That difference, does it result in the African-Americans who have
0:17:08 > 0:17:11arrived recently in the US, such as yourself, acting differently
0:17:11 > 0:17:14or having a different psyche from the black Americans
0:17:14 > 0:17:17who are the descendants of slaves and have lived for many,
0:17:17 > 0:17:25many years, obviously, in the US?
0:17:25 > 0:17:29I will say this, I will be careful not to comment on the experience
0:17:29 > 0:17:32of every single person because I am only myself and can only experience
0:17:32 > 0:17:43the people who are around me.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47What I do know is this.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49In terms of our racial histories, South Africa
0:17:49 > 0:17:50and America are very similar.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54When I talk to a black American person, there are many stories
0:17:54 > 0:17:56that we share as human beings, there are many oppressions
0:17:56 > 0:17:59that we have experienced through our selective oppressors.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01I think those are the things that many people can relate
0:18:01 > 0:18:02to a across-the-board.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05So there's more to unite, even though you say
0:18:05 > 0:18:06there are differences?
0:18:06 > 0:18:09There is definitely more to unite, especially when you are being
0:18:09 > 0:18:10oppressed as a group.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13When you are in the US as a black African man,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16I can tell you now that if you have an encounter
0:18:16 > 0:18:19with the police they are not going to split the hairs that
0:18:19 > 0:18:20you are talking about.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22They're not going to say, excuse me, Trevor Noah,
0:18:23 > 0:18:24are you from South Africa or Detroit?
0:18:24 > 0:18:25That doesn't happen.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29But here you are, a black icon, South African born and so on,
0:18:29 > 0:18:31and you present one of the most iconic news
0:18:31 > 0:18:32programmes in the US,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35The Daily Show you took over from John Stewart last year.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Now we see a lot being made about fake news appearing
0:18:38 > 0:18:41on websites on the internet, and that's something people lament,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43particularly in the recent presidential campaign,
0:18:43 > 0:18:44because it kind of distorts facts.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Do you feel that you in some way use mockery, fake incredulity
0:18:47 > 0:18:48and exaggeration,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51that perhaps you're treading a fine line yourself?
0:18:51 > 0:18:54I don't think so, because we are operating in the space
0:18:54 > 0:18:58of a news parody and satire.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01When you talk about fake news, the biggest difference is it never
0:19:01 > 0:19:03tells you that it is fake news.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06We let you know from the beginning.
0:19:06 > 0:19:12We are on Comedy Central.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15I tell you from the get go who I am.
0:19:15 > 0:19:16There is no facade.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18So when you come to our show...
0:19:18 > 0:19:22One thing we do maintain is factual accuracy and that is a standard
0:19:22 > 0:19:25and a legacy that I inherited from John Stewart and I keep it.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29I keep it not because of moral high ground, but because I believe
0:19:29 > 0:19:32the best jokes are based in truth, and so when your
0:19:32 > 0:19:34true foundation is solid you will find that your jokes
0:19:34 > 0:19:35connect with more people.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Are you not contributing to that kind of echo chamber effect?
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Now we are seeing that there is a lot of personal
0:19:41 > 0:19:42invective on social media,
0:19:43 > 0:19:44traditional media, polarised opinions.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46Are you perhaps becoming part of that?
0:19:46 > 0:19:48You are implicitly a part of it, though.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50How do you not be a part of it?
0:19:50 > 0:19:54I'll tell you one way you can not be a part of it,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57is by trying to operate in a space where you are completely neutral,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00devoid of all opinion and giving everybody an equal platform
0:20:00 > 0:20:03to share their views.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Oftentimes what we've seen is all you are doing when you do
0:20:07 > 0:20:11this is you are giving a platform to either hate speech or to divisive
0:20:11 > 0:20:13rhetoric that is extreme, and the middle keeps getting pushed
0:20:13 > 0:20:19over to the right.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21So when you look at conversations that are had...
0:20:21 > 0:20:24So for instance, when someone will be on CNN
0:20:24 > 0:20:25saying, "Are dues people"?
0:20:25 > 0:20:30And then you're like, are you going to give that
0:20:30 > 0:20:31person a platform?
0:20:31 > 0:20:34So if I say the world is square, do I deserve a platform?
0:20:34 > 0:20:37When I go against science, do I deserve a platform?
0:20:37 > 0:20:41When I go against things that we know, why do we still give
0:20:41 > 0:20:42these people a platform?
0:20:42 > 0:20:45The truth is we do it because we want to maintain
0:20:45 > 0:20:46the appearance of impartiality.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49But the news then loses focus, because the news should
0:20:49 > 0:20:51be fact driven.
0:20:51 > 0:20:52Am I correct?
0:20:52 > 0:20:54No, you answer that. Yeah, of course.
0:20:54 > 0:20:55Should it be fact driven?
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Yeah, comment is free, fact is sacred, is what we always say.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02So, if you've got the facts... We haven't got much time.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03Now fact has become opinion.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07OK, but do you feel now that you're concerned that there is right wing
0:21:07 > 0:21:08rhetoric and power now combined?
0:21:08 > 0:21:12And I'm thinking of Steve Bannon, who is now going to be appointed
0:21:12 > 0:21:14chief strategist to Donald Trump at the White House, chairman
0:21:14 > 0:21:16of Breitbart News, the Conservative website,
0:21:16 > 0:21:18where one headline said the Confederate flag proclaims
0:21:18 > 0:21:19a glorious heritage.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22And of course the Confederate flag was used by the southern states,
0:21:22 > 0:21:27the slave-owning states.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Are you worried about that combination between right-wing
0:21:29 > 0:21:38rhetoric?
0:21:38 > 0:21:38Definitely...definitely.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Because, essentially, Donald Trump may not be saying it
0:21:41 > 0:21:43using his words, but the people he's surrounding himself
0:21:43 > 0:21:45with echo the sentiment that he is not creating
0:21:45 > 0:21:46an inclusive America,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49does not plan to be a president that unifies America.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52Well, he has said he wants to unify America, and I'm not saying
0:21:53 > 0:21:56that he himself has got far right views, I'm just saying
0:21:56 > 0:21:59that there are those from the far right who have hailed his victory.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Yes, but you see this is interesting because look at you now
0:22:03 > 0:22:04as a news person.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07You are in the uncomfortable position where you have to appear
0:22:07 > 0:22:09to not say anything that implies anything,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12even though it is laid out before us.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14So I ask you this question.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17You will go, "Somebody is not racist, nor are they..."
0:22:17 > 0:22:19I'm not saying that. I'm just saying...
0:22:19 > 0:22:23No, no, I'm saying, as an example, someone goes, "You're not far
0:22:23 > 0:22:25right", but if you surround yourself with those people,
0:22:25 > 0:22:29if you are at meetings with these people, if these people are having
0:22:29 > 0:22:30events where they are heiling,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33if the rhetoric that is around you completely is that,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36are you not that?
0:22:36 > 0:22:39I'm just saying that there are those of the far right
0:22:39 > 0:22:41who are using his victory to legitimise their discourse.
0:22:41 > 0:22:42Definitely.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45You backed Hillary Clinton, you urged your viewers to vote
0:22:45 > 0:22:47for Hillary Clinton in the presidential campaign.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50We already know Donald Trump has criticised the Saturday Night Live
0:22:50 > 0:22:53for running a sketch about him, saying he was totally unprepared
0:22:53 > 0:22:56for the presidency, and so on and so forth.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59Finally, are you Trevor Noah going to be careful with what you say
0:22:59 > 0:23:01about President Trump because the space is
0:23:01 > 0:23:07shrinking for you?
0:23:07 > 0:23:09I will say this.
0:23:09 > 0:23:14I will be as careful in talking about Donald Trump
0:23:14 > 0:23:17as he was when he was speaking about Barack Obama.
0:23:17 > 0:23:23Because at the end of the day, free speech, and that is something
0:23:23 > 0:23:25I appreciate and celebrate, free speech means that
0:23:25 > 0:23:29you have the right to speak out against things that you see.
0:23:29 > 0:23:34You know, any ludicrous ideas are any instances
0:23:34 > 0:23:36where there is hypocrisy within politics.
0:23:36 > 0:23:42I have that right and I intend to use it.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46I am not fundamentally opposed to Donald Trump as a human being,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49but I am in a position where every single day I will be
0:23:49 > 0:23:52living in a country that is under his presidency
0:23:52 > 0:23:54and so if he affords me comedic material,
0:23:54 > 0:23:58then I will only do what I can do, which is turn that into fodder
0:23:58 > 0:24:04and put it on a TV show, that is a fake news show.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Trevor Noah, thank you so much for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:07 > 0:24:24Thank you for having me.
0:24:32 > 0:24:33Hello.