0:00:00 > 0:00:07Now on BBC News, Hardtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:08Welcome to HARDtalk,
0:00:08 > 0:00:10I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:15After six years of terrible bloodshed, could 2017 dramatically
0:00:15 > 0:00:18shift the dynamic of the Syria conflict?
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Change is in the air.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Aleppo has fallen to the Assad regime and a ceasefire deal brokered
0:00:24 > 0:00:29by Russia and Turkey is just about folding.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Moscow's dominant role in the diplomatic endgame is now
0:00:32 > 0:00:36undisputed with Ankara playing a pivotal role as well.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39My guest is Bassma Kodmani of the negotiating
0:00:39 > 0:00:41team of the Syrian opposition.
0:00:41 > 0:00:50Is it time for the moderate rebels to accept their de facto defeat?
0:01:15 > 0:01:20Bassma Kodmani in Paris, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Hello, Stephen, thank you.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25It's a pleasure to have you on the programme.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Let me start with a question that comes directly from the New Year.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Do you see 2017 bringing with it better prospects
0:01:33 > 0:01:37for an end to the conflict in Syria then we have seen at any time
0:01:37 > 0:01:43in the previous, almost, six years?
0:01:43 > 0:01:47I do, carefully optimistic, but I do.
0:01:47 > 0:01:52I do hope and we are working towards making 2017 the end
0:01:52 > 0:01:57of the disaster of the tragedy and the beginning of
0:01:57 > 0:01:59a political transition.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03That is what we are hoping for and the coming
0:02:03 > 0:02:06weeks will tell us whether we are moving in that direction
0:02:06 > 0:02:10but there is certainly a turning point and
0:02:10 > 0:02:13certainly something to build on at the moment
0:02:13 > 0:02:17with the new players that have asserted themselves and I think
0:02:17 > 0:02:22there is space for diplomacy now if the signals coming out
0:02:22 > 0:02:26from Moscow and from Turkey as well as, very
0:02:26 > 0:02:32carefully, from Tehran, if these signals are sincere then
0:02:32 > 0:02:36we have some hope for a political settlement, yes.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39I want to talk about the key players and their
0:02:39 > 0:02:42signals in a minute but just taking up your phrase about a turning
0:02:42 > 0:02:43point.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Would it be fair to say that the defeat of the anti-Assad
0:02:46 > 0:02:54forces in Aleppo was a fundamental turning point?
0:02:54 > 0:02:57Certainly, the military confrontation has turned
0:02:57 > 0:03:01to the advantage of the Assad regime.
0:03:01 > 0:03:02Why?
0:03:02 > 0:03:07Simply because it had the full and massive support of Russian air
0:03:07 > 0:03:13force on one hand and pro-Iranian militia, sectarian militias on the
0:03:13 > 0:03:15ground as ground forces.
0:03:15 > 0:03:21Very little was done by Assad's forces, it was by one key regional
0:03:21 > 0:03:25power and one key international power so it was obvious the outcome
0:03:25 > 0:03:29was not going to be in favour of the opposition.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34But one needs to look back five years ago or even six years ago
0:03:34 > 0:03:35when the uprising started.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40Those who rose up against Assad had no arms, no military means
0:03:40 > 0:03:45at all so we are looking at a confrontation
0:03:45 > 0:03:50that is ending militarily but the ingredients for a conflict
0:03:50 > 0:03:56and the confrontation is still there.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00If we are going to build on the military balance of forces,
0:04:00 > 0:04:06I don't think we will go very far in either defeating terrorism
0:04:06 > 0:04:10in Syria or in ending the conflict and having
0:04:10 > 0:04:14a satisfactory political transition.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17The people of Syria and goodness knows that they
0:04:17 > 0:04:22have suffered so much, they have seen well over 300,000
0:04:22 > 0:04:26of their people killed, they have seen 12 million and more
0:04:26 > 0:04:28displaced including 5 million who have left
0:04:28 > 0:04:30the country altogether.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34With that in mind, is this the right time for you in the so-called
0:04:34 > 0:04:38moderate anti-Assad opposition who have been aligned
0:04:38 > 0:04:42with the United States and the Saudis in particular,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44would it be the right time to acknowledge that you have
0:04:44 > 0:04:46lost out here?
0:04:46 > 0:04:50You wanted Assad to go and those who have prevailed,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52the Russians in particular and the Iranians as well,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55they are the people who are insistent that Assad
0:04:55 > 0:05:00need not and will not go?
0:05:00 > 0:05:05To be fair to the opposition, it has sought support
0:05:05 > 0:05:10from democratic countries, it has received very little support
0:05:10 > 0:05:14and obviously the Assad regime has received massive support.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Russia has decided Syria would be the place where it
0:05:17 > 0:05:22would signal its international power, stature and military might.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25We have seen it happen on our territory.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28It is not because we chose to align ourselves
0:05:28 > 0:05:31with this or that party.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34We as Syrians are asking for dignity,
0:05:34 > 0:05:39rights, freedom and security and the right to life today
0:05:39 > 0:05:43for every Syrian and for that to happen, we will be
0:05:43 > 0:05:47working with any country serious about organising and facilitating
0:05:47 > 0:05:50a political transition.
0:05:50 > 0:05:56We have tried it with Assad himself directly for ten years,
0:05:56 > 0:06:00then the population rose against Assad for six years.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Did not receive any concession, none whatsoever.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07We look to all the powers in this world and if Russia
0:06:07 > 0:06:11is serious about brokering a settlement in Syria,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14it will find a partner among the moderate opposition,
0:06:15 > 0:06:17both military and political.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21These are people who the moderate political opposition
0:06:21 > 0:06:24is very clear about.
0:06:24 > 0:06:25The state needs to remain.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28There has to be continuity of governance, we need to restore
0:06:28 > 0:06:33security to Syria because we know the international community
0:06:33 > 0:06:39is worried about international terrorism coming out of Syria.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41If I may, let me read between the lines.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45You acknowledge the Russians are driving the process,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47no question.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50The Americans with Obama in his final days as president,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52with Donald Trump singing a very different tune,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55the Americans aren't really in this game at the moment
0:06:55 > 0:06:58and as far as you're concerned, you are now ready, are you,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03to undertake the peace negotiations the Russians want,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06to be, they say, hosted in Astana, Kazakhstan, with the Turks
0:07:06 > 0:07:13and the Iranians playing key roles with no sign of the Americans?
0:07:13 > 0:07:16Are you with your team in the high negotiations council
0:07:16 > 0:07:19of the opposition prepared to participate
0:07:19 > 0:07:23in that process?
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Look, I believe if these talks were to take place in Astana
0:07:26 > 0:07:31or Geneva or any other place, if they are placed under the terms
0:07:31 > 0:07:36of reference, if the terms for the talks are clear,
0:07:36 > 0:07:41if they refer to UN resolutions which Russia has voted for,
0:07:41 > 0:07:44there is no problem in participating in such a process.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Russia is brokering a cessation of hostilities on the ground.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52If this holds, the parties will be ready to go
0:07:52 > 0:07:55whether they are military or political.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58What we would like to see is certainly the new US
0:07:58 > 0:08:04administration step in and take some responsibility in brokering
0:08:04 > 0:08:08this political arrangement.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10We have Russia telling us it is serious about
0:08:10 > 0:08:13political settlement.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17We have Turkey playing a positive role but so far we have not
0:08:17 > 0:08:19had a positive role from Iran.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23Let us admit that Iran has been the key spoiler.
0:08:23 > 0:08:28Sectarian militias on the ground are our key problem today in Syria.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33They are fuelling jihadis on the opposition side.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38What we need as a priority is a coalition of countries,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41and the Trump administration should be part of that,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45to push out both sectarian militias who are poisoning
0:08:45 > 0:08:47the ground inside Syria.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49I will push you on this a little bit.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51You can say what should happen and what you
0:08:51 > 0:08:53would like to happen but let's deal with reality,
0:08:53 > 0:08:54what is happening.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57The US is not playing a role and the UN, frankly,
0:08:57 > 0:08:58has been sidetracked as well.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01The Russians are dominating the diplomacy right now and I want
0:09:01 > 0:09:04a simple yes or no answer.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Are you prepared to go to peace talks that are brokered
0:09:07 > 0:09:11and controlled by Russia?
0:09:11 > 0:09:13The Russians who don't see a reason to insist that Assad be
0:09:13 > 0:09:15removed from power.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19Are you prepared to undertake and participate in those talks under
0:09:19 > 0:09:23Russian auspices?
0:09:23 > 0:09:27The Russians are referring to the UN resolutions.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31If that is clearly the case, there is no problem in participating.
0:09:31 > 0:09:32The opposition can go.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36What I'm saying is the Trump administration, the US Congress,
0:09:36 > 0:09:41are clearly coming out against Iranian behaviour
0:09:41 > 0:09:45across the Middle East because it has really destabilised the region.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50That is where we can expect the Trump administration will play
0:09:50 > 0:09:54a role in pressuring Iran to limit its presence
0:09:54 > 0:09:56across the region.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00It's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, everywhere in the region
0:10:00 > 0:10:04and we have a real problem there with the Shia militias
0:10:04 > 0:10:05on the ground.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09We cannot get rid of Sunni jihadis whether it is Daesh,
0:10:09 > 0:10:15Al Nusra, radical groups, if we have this poisonous presence
0:10:15 > 0:10:18of Shia militias on the side of the regime.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21This is where Iran needs to come to terms
0:10:21 > 0:10:24with what needs to happen on the ground in order for Syria
0:10:24 > 0:10:26to see a peaceful settlement.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29On one point of detail, yesterday a coalition of 12
0:10:29 > 0:10:33or so different anti-Assad forces on the ground said
0:10:33 > 0:10:37they were going to reject any further diplomacy under
0:10:37 > 0:10:46the Russian-Astana tent because of what they described as systematic
0:10:46 > 0:10:48violations of the ceasefire agreement by Assad forces
0:10:48 > 0:10:53on the ground.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56If that your position as well or you prepared to say
0:10:56 > 0:11:01that the ceasefire is holding in a satisfactory way?
0:11:01 > 0:11:04Unfortunately the ceasefire is not holding.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07These groups are the ones who signed with
0:11:07 > 0:11:09Russia and Russia signed on behalf of the regime,
0:11:09 > 0:11:12an agreement for cessation of hostilities.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16The groups abided by the ceasefire and the Syrian regime
0:11:16 > 0:11:18is not abiding.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22What the groups are asking is for our Russia to get the Assad
0:11:22 > 0:11:26regime to behave, to comply and enforce the cessation
0:11:26 > 0:11:28of hostilities.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32If it is credible, a political negotiation can happen.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36These groups are willing to go to Astana, they signed,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39they said they were going and now we see the other side is not
0:11:39 > 0:11:42respecting any of that.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46We need Russia to put pressure needed, and it can do so,
0:11:46 > 0:11:52on Iran and the Syrian regime if it was a political settlement.
0:11:52 > 0:11:59I personally believe that Russia today has an interest in finding
0:11:59 > 0:12:01an exit strategy through a political settlement.
0:12:01 > 0:12:06I would expect it will do so.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08Have you and other negotiators who have aimed
0:12:08 > 0:12:13your efforts mostly at the UN track in Geneva, have you reached out
0:12:13 > 0:12:21with key Russian officials?
0:12:21 > 0:12:24Through the United Nations we have contacts with
0:12:24 > 0:12:28everyone involved in this crisis.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30With respect, I don't mean through the UN track.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33The Financial Times reported last month that some
0:12:33 > 0:12:39moderate leaders had covert and secret talks with Russian
0:12:39 > 0:12:41officials hosted by the Turks in Ankara.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Have you been involved in that?
0:12:44 > 0:12:48The Turks have hosted talks with military groups
0:12:48 > 0:12:52and lots of political figures from the opposition have also been
0:12:52 > 0:12:55in touch directly with Russia.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Some have gone to Moscow and some have met them elsewhere.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02There are many messages passed on to the Russians and they know
0:13:02 > 0:13:08exactly where the opposition stands and what it is willing to negotiate.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Really, the problem today is not so much Russia and the opposition.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14They know each other, or they understand each
0:13:14 > 0:13:16other's position.
0:13:16 > 0:13:23We are willing to operate and negotiate under the political
0:13:23 > 0:13:26transition, fine, we can go to a negotiation
0:13:26 > 0:13:30on political transition...
0:13:30 > 0:13:34If I may say, we have talked before and you have always in the past
0:13:34 > 0:13:36said, you know what, it's quite simple, the removal
0:13:36 > 0:13:40of Assad, no role for us that in the transition.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43That is a dealbreaker dealbreaker for us.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47We cannot sign anything or engage in any process that involves Assad.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50It seems to me that you must be changing your mind.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54If you say you believe in Russia's good faith
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and believe in their desire to see the conflict ended,
0:13:57 > 0:13:59we know the Russians don't feel that Assad has
0:13:59 > 0:14:02to go so presumably, to have given ground
0:14:02 > 0:14:05on that, have you?
0:14:05 > 0:14:10Look, can I say very simply, we read the international equation.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13Here's the balance of forces on the ground, here is what Russia
0:14:13 > 0:14:17is seeking to achieve, a political settlement,
0:14:17 > 0:14:20fine, along the lines of resolutions in the UN,
0:14:20 > 0:14:21to talk about political transition.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24That is fine for us.
0:14:24 > 0:14:29What Assad becomes is how he behaves in these negotiations.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Is he in a position to make concessions, to yield some
0:14:33 > 0:14:36of his prerogatives, a lot of his prerogatives,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39most of his prerogatives, any of his prerogatives,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41to a transition government?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44If that is the case then the discussion changes but do
0:14:44 > 0:14:47you think the opposition...
0:14:47 > 0:14:49He might be leading the transition.
0:14:49 > 0:14:50He cannot lead it.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52What?
0:14:52 > 0:14:54He obviously cannot lead it.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57He is not showing any indication other than destroying communities
0:14:57 > 0:15:00and starving people.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04We need to see some behaviour that is positive on the other side,
0:15:04 > 0:15:06then we will have a partner for peace.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10If we don't, I think Russia will come to terms with the fact
0:15:10 > 0:15:13that it doesn't have a party on the other side and cannot ask
0:15:13 > 0:15:16the opposition to do much to work with Assad if Assad doesn't
0:15:16 > 0:15:19want to work with the opposition.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22The equation is fairly easy, you know.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27We are not asking for Assad to go away the day we enter negotiations.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31We are talking about negotiations in which there are give and take.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35We need prisoners out, we need women and children to be
0:15:35 > 0:15:38safe and to be released also from prisons.
0:15:38 > 0:15:43We need the disappeared, to have news about them.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46We need to have the bombings stop and barrel bombs stop
0:15:46 > 0:15:49being thrown at civilians.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51I'm sorry to repeat myself.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54I don't want to get stuck on this issue, but one last time,
0:15:54 > 0:15:58it does seem to me that you have given ground on the role of Assad.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02You are now acknowledging to me that Assad will be a key figure
0:16:02 > 0:16:03in the negotiations.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07He won't just be removed, it will be Assad in many ways
0:16:07 > 0:16:13who is the figure deciding what he can give.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Look, the power of Assad is very little.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20He has nuisance power, yes, but those who are negotiating,
0:16:20 > 0:16:24the decision-making power is in Moscow and Tehran.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29Unfortunately there is no Syrian regime that can
0:16:29 > 0:16:31still decide on a yes or no.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35That is why we are talking to Russia.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38We will be talking to the countries and parties that support
0:16:38 > 0:16:42the Assad regime, not so much the regime itself.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45We need to find some reasonable voices over there,
0:16:45 > 0:16:49we have not seen them so far, he has prevented them from rising
0:16:49 > 0:16:53and if negotiations can bring those reasonable voices out and if we can
0:16:53 > 0:16:58talk to them and have them safely talk to us without being themselves
0:16:58 > 0:17:03punished for showing some reasonable behaviour, then we will have
0:17:03 > 0:17:05a negotiated process.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Otherwise I think Russia will understand, Iran is more difficult,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13but Russia will understand that it doesn't have a helpful partner out
0:17:13 > 0:17:17there and needs to work differently with the opposition.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19Everything we are talking about is couched in terms
0:17:19 > 0:17:20of Moscow, Putin, Russia.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Let's reflect on how we got to where we are today.
0:17:23 > 0:17:28Do you feel desperately let down, maybe even betrayed
0:17:28 > 0:17:32by the Obama administration?
0:17:32 > 0:17:35I think the Obama administration has opted out.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40It should have played the role that was what a US role
0:17:40 > 0:17:43should be in this region.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47Opting out of this region is abandoning certain
0:17:47 > 0:17:50responsibilities vis-a-vis Syria but also vis-a-vis the whole region,
0:17:50 > 0:17:54Iraq, the Gulf countries.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58We are in a region where the US was a key player.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01It cannot just pull out as it did and in the case of Syria,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04it is the Syrian population, yes, that is paying the price.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06Yes, we are disappointed.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10Obama, he steered away from obviously any significant
0:18:10 > 0:18:13military action against Assad.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17It looked possible for a while, he walked away from it.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19He talked, or at least Hillary Clinton talked
0:18:19 > 0:18:21for a while about some sort of aerial intervention
0:18:21 > 0:18:23to establish safe havens.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25They walked very long, long way from that.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28They talked about training moderate forces on the ground.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Well, the training programme turned out to be pitiful.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Actually farcical.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38So when you look at all of those elements of what the administration
0:18:38 > 0:18:42talked about and didn't deliver, give me your final verdict as Obama
0:18:42 > 0:18:46is about to leave office.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51Well, I believe he should have thought of where security,
0:18:51 > 0:18:56how to restore security in Syria and today that is our concern.
0:18:56 > 0:19:01The Obama administration has decided that there was no possibility
0:19:01 > 0:19:03to challenge Russia.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06He certainly should have challenged Russia at some point
0:19:06 > 0:19:10and at those turning points, he failed us, he certainly did.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13But what we are looking at today is can we bring
0:19:13 > 0:19:15back security to Syria?
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Because this is the concern of the international community.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20Unfortunately, no one is thinking of Assad.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Assad can sit there, they don't see the risk
0:19:22 > 0:19:25and they don't see the link between terrorism rising
0:19:25 > 0:19:28and Assad staying in power.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32Fine, but what we are seeing today is if you want to bring
0:19:32 > 0:19:37an alternative to the horrible, criminal system that we have
0:19:37 > 0:19:41in Syria, then we have to have a security plan for this
0:19:41 > 0:19:44country and we need the cooperation of every country.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46We need the US, we need Russia.
0:19:46 > 0:19:50Your message to Donald Trump then, Donald Trump the man who says
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Vladimir Putin is very smart and who also says that when it comes
0:19:53 > 0:19:58to analysing the serious situation, his objective and his overriding
0:19:58 > 0:20:03concern is smashing the jihadists in so-called Islamic State.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07It doesn't seem to be in getting rid of Assad whatsoever.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11So your message to Trump?
0:20:11 > 0:20:15The message to Trump is get the foreign fighters out of Syria.
0:20:15 > 0:20:19Shia militias, pro-Iranian, they are Iraqis, they are Afghans,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22they are Iranians, they are not Syrians and on the other side,
0:20:22 > 0:20:27there are jihadis who are foreigners and we want them out of the country.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31This is what the international community needs to help
0:20:31 > 0:20:33the reasonable Syrians in order to achieve the coming
0:20:33 > 0:20:35weeks and months.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37That's when we can have the ground for a political settlement.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41We don't have much time left and I just want you now to reflect
0:20:41 > 0:20:43on the six years that have brought us here.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46You have been actively involved with the opposition throughout
0:20:46 > 0:20:48that six-year period and here we are with
0:20:48 > 0:20:52Russia in the ascendancy, with the Americans opted out
0:20:52 > 0:20:55and with Donald Trump singing a tune that doesn't sound
0:20:55 > 0:20:58like it is going to suit you very well, and on the ground,
0:20:58 > 0:21:03the opposition forces defeated in Aleppo and on the defensive
0:21:03 > 0:21:07in those pockets of territory they still retain.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10Is it time for you to quit, for the opposition to say,
0:21:10 > 0:21:14we tried, we failed, the country has been ruined
0:21:14 > 0:21:19and the best thing now is to walk away and accept defeat
0:21:19 > 0:21:26because that is the only way we can save further life?
0:21:26 > 0:21:28This is our country.
0:21:28 > 0:21:29We cannot give up.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33Giving up makes no sense.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35What we are looking to achieve...
0:21:35 > 0:21:38Well, it makes sense when you are saving lives.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Well, no, it is not, because coming under Assad's
0:21:42 > 0:21:44control tomorrow morning, if that is to happen,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48is also under Shia militias.
0:21:48 > 0:21:54Again, Assad has no capacity to control the country, to govern it.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58Neither the legitimacy nor the capacity, the military capacity.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01He needs those foreign troops to be on the ground,
0:22:01 > 0:22:05so it is too late to imagine a scenario of Assad returning
0:22:05 > 0:22:07and retaking control of the whole country.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10That is not going to happen because he cannot do it.
0:22:10 > 0:22:16Even if Russia wants him to do it, he cannot achieve it.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19Quickly, what Russia seems to want, as best as we can understand,
0:22:19 > 0:22:23it is that they want a much more federal system, Assad
0:22:23 > 0:22:26to still be president, much more autonomy to the different
0:22:26 > 0:22:28regions of Syria, which would then recognise the rights
0:22:28 > 0:22:32of all of the different ethnic groupings within the country,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36a looser system but one in which still has Assad
0:22:36 > 0:22:37at its federal centre.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42Could you imagine accepting that?
0:22:42 > 0:22:44I think the Russians will themselves realise that that is not
0:22:44 > 0:22:46going to work with Assad.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51We want decentralisation, we want a loose control from the centre,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54we want obviously a democratic, participative system,
0:22:54 > 0:22:58so we are not disagreeing here and we are saving we need
0:22:58 > 0:23:00security and fighting terrorism.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03We are on the side of the international community on this.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05Is Assad on the side of the international community?
0:23:05 > 0:23:07That is the real question to ask.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Is he willing to fight those jihadi groups because the Shia groups
0:23:11 > 0:23:16are just as jihadi as Daesh group, so that is what we need to achieve.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Is Assad a partner in doing that?
0:23:18 > 0:23:21I don't believe he has shown any indication of that and this
0:23:21 > 0:23:25is where we believe the opposition is showing every sign
0:23:25 > 0:23:29that it is part of the solution and that with it builds security
0:23:29 > 0:23:35capacity and governance capacity for a future Syria.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Do you think we will be having this conversation again
0:23:37 > 0:23:39at the beginning of 2018, with Syria still at war
0:23:39 > 0:23:42or will it be over by then?
0:23:42 > 0:23:44I think war will be over by then.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47I think the parties are exhausted and I do believe that
0:23:47 > 0:23:52in 2018, we will be talking about what we have reconstructed
0:23:52 > 0:23:55so far and how we have brought legitimate governance
0:23:55 > 0:23:58to the different areas of Syria.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00That is my belief and that is what we are fighting for.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02We will end on that positive note.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07Bassma Kodmani, thank you very much for joining me from Paris.
0:24:39 > 0:24:40We
0:24:40 > 0:24:40We had