0:00:11 > 0:00:13Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15The so-called Islamic State may be coming under pressure
0:00:15 > 0:00:17in both Syria and Iraq, but still, accounts emerge
0:00:17 > 0:00:20of atrocities carried out by them.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23The minority Yazidi community has been amongst one of the most
0:00:23 > 0:00:26persecuted groups of people, living mostly in northern Iraq.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29They have been killed, forced to convert to Islam,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32and the women and girls have been held in sexual slavery.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36My guest is psychologist Jan Kizilhan, a Yazidi Kurd
0:00:36 > 0:00:39living in Germany.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41He's helped bring 1,000 Yazidi females from camps in Iraq
0:00:41 > 0:00:44to Germany to start a new life.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48How does he decide who should stay and who should go?
0:01:17 > 0:01:18Jan Kizilhan, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Thank you.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21What is your main goal, purpose, in rescuing
0:01:21 > 0:01:33these women and children, bringing them from Iraq to Germany?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35They are under pressure, psychological pressure.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38They have post-traumatic stress disorder because they were for
0:01:38 > 0:01:39moments in the hands of IS.
0:01:39 > 0:01:40Tortured.
0:01:40 > 0:01:41Violated.
0:01:41 > 0:01:52Exploited and a lot of things.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Our main goal is to bring exploited women and girls for medical
0:01:56 > 0:01:57treatment and psychological treatment to Germany.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00You live in Stuttgart, the capital of the state
0:02:00 > 0:02:02of Baden-Wurttemberg, and the state runs a special project
0:02:02 > 0:02:07to rescue Yazidi women and children from these camps in Iraq.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09But you also help Shia Muslims as well as Christians,
0:02:10 > 0:02:10but mostly Yazidis.
0:02:10 > 0:02:11Why just the Yazidis?
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Actually, we didn't make any differences.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16The state government decided to bring in vulnerable women
0:02:16 > 0:02:19and girls who were in the hands of IS, but unfortunately,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22most of them are Yazidis, because IS targeted on 3rd of August
0:02:23 > 0:02:342014 mostly the Yazidi areas of Sinjar.
0:02:34 > 0:02:52And the first two weeks, they killed more two and 3000 people,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54people, and then bring women and girls to enslavement,
0:02:54 > 0:02:58to assault them, to work at Mosul, at Tel Afar and other cities.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01As well, Christians were part of this, and Shias, but most
0:03:01 > 0:03:02of them are Yazidis.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04We heard in August 2014, when Sinjar, the town
0:03:04 > 0:03:07was controlled by Isis, fell to IS, and we heard
0:03:07 > 0:03:10the terrible reports of what happened to the Yazidi women.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12You yourself are a Yazidi Kurd.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14You were born in a small village in eastern Turkey
0:03:14 > 0:03:16to a very poor family.
0:03:16 > 0:03:17Your father was in fact illiterate.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20You then went to Germany when you were six years of age,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23joined your parents there, became highly, highly educated.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25You've got so many qualifications and degrees.
0:03:25 > 0:03:25You're a psychologist.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28Do you feel a responsibility, as an educated Yazidi,
0:03:28 > 0:03:36to help people in your community?
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Actually, you know, they are my people,
0:03:38 > 0:03:42so of course I feel responsible, but in the last ten or 15 years,
0:03:42 > 0:03:44I work also with survivors from Rwanda, from Bosnia,
0:03:44 > 0:03:47so I'm Professor in psychology and working very professional.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50When the state government asked me to help, of course, I have no way...
0:03:50 > 0:03:52I had to say yes.
0:03:52 > 0:03:53I speak the language.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55I know the people.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00I know the area, and we had just a small time of one year
0:04:00 > 0:04:03to find 1,100 people, to examine them and to bring
0:04:03 > 0:04:06them to a different kind of security, to Germany,
0:04:06 > 0:04:07which was very difficult.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11So I said, yes, of course, I will do that.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13You say it is very difficult.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16You have in fact made 30 visits to the camps in northern Iraq
0:04:16 > 0:04:20in the last two years to interview the Yazidi females who are held
0:04:20 > 0:04:22there, who were former sex slaves, really, for IS.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25What criteria do do you use to make this very difficult
0:04:26 > 0:04:33decision you referred to?
0:04:33 > 0:04:36I myself examining and interviewed the last year, 2015,
0:04:36 > 0:04:41about 1403 women and girls myself, and talked to each one.
0:04:41 > 0:04:49We had three different kinds of criteria.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52One criteria was, they must be in the hands of IS.
0:04:52 > 0:04:57And now living in some camps, refugee camps, in Iraq.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59They have post-traumatic stress disorder because IS
0:04:59 > 0:05:02violated and tortured.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05The youngest girl was eight years that I examined myself,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08and they assault eight times and raped hundreds of times
0:05:08 > 0:05:13during the ten months she was in the hands of IS,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16so she has a psychological disorder and needed urgently help.
0:05:16 > 0:05:21She had suicide ideas.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24She didn't want to survive, to live, she had no parents,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26or her parents were killed.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29So this was our duty, to say, we have to help.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31The third criteria was, in Germany, we should
0:05:31 > 0:05:35have the know-how to help them, with doctors, with translators,
0:05:35 > 0:05:37with social workers, with clinical work, and we used this
0:05:37 > 0:05:40criteria - to be in the hands of IS, medical criteria,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42psychological criteria, and we should be able
0:05:42 > 0:05:44to help them in Germany.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49Huge responsibility for you, really, to decide who should remain
0:05:50 > 0:05:53in the camp, with all the trauma and distressed that they have
0:05:53 > 0:06:01experienced, and who should then be taken to Germany for help.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07How do you feel, with such a huge burden on your shoulders?
0:06:07 > 0:06:11Not really good, because our job...
0:06:11 > 0:06:15The political decision was to bring 1,000 people, not more.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19But we have thousands of people who have this criteria.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22So we have to look very clear, and we specialise
0:06:22 > 0:06:24and target women and girls.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28We are talking about a patriarchal society.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32Even when women and girls were raped by IS, some of the people had
0:06:32 > 0:06:38problems with honour, and so-called dishonour problems.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41So we didn't take men, or we just said, it is very
0:06:41 > 0:06:44important to find these girls and to bring them, and just
0:06:44 > 0:06:47be honest, sometimes.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52I had one case that one women, who we decided, I was not clear
0:06:52 > 0:06:55if we should take her or not.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59But always I had this eight years girl in front of my eyes.
0:06:59 > 0:07:00She needs help.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05During my time in 2015 when I was in Iraq, about 60
0:07:05 > 0:07:08women killed themselves, committed suicide,
0:07:08 > 0:07:14because they were not able to live under this situation,
0:07:14 > 0:07:19in camps where 20,000 people live, in refugee camps.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21They have no doctors, no psychologists, they have
0:07:21 > 0:07:25nightmares, they had fear.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Even I had one girl, 16 years old, she was in a tent and she believed
0:07:29 > 0:07:33IS had come back again, through her nightmare, and she took
0:07:33 > 0:07:37gasoline and burned herself.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39She was 80% of her skin was totally burned.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40So we had no choices.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43We had to bring them out of Iraq to Germany.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48She burned herself because she was worried that she would be taken
0:07:48 > 0:07:51by IS and health as a sexual slave, so wanted to make
0:07:51 > 0:07:54herself unattractive?
0:07:54 > 0:07:55Exactly.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58Not trying to kill herself?
0:07:58 > 0:08:01No, her fear was, I have to make me unattractive, to be ugly.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04If I'm ugly, they will not rape me.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07And so, she took just the gas and burned herself,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10just to be left alone, but it is a kind of
0:08:10 > 0:08:13post-traumatic stress disorder.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16They have nightmares, sometimes psychotic symptoms,
0:08:16 > 0:08:23and she believed at that time that IS was in front of the tent.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26So you choose people like that, who you feel that you can
0:08:26 > 0:08:28help back in Germany?
0:08:28 > 0:08:31But how do you feel about those you have to leave behind.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32It's a huge responsibility.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33Not very good.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37We talk to different kind of countries with different kind
0:08:37 > 0:08:38of state government.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42In Germany, we have 16 states.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46I hope even now, Canada or Britain, will take some of these very,
0:08:46 > 0:08:47very vulnerable women and girls for medical treatment
0:08:47 > 0:08:48very vulnerable women and girls for medical treatment
0:08:48 > 0:08:56to Europe or to Canada.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Because there is still nearly 2000 Yazidi women and girls who were held
0:08:59 > 0:09:05by so-called Islamic State, and they are now living in camps?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08Yes, and the number will probably rise, because after Mosul and Raqqa,
0:09:08 > 0:09:16we have still 3400 women and girls in the hands of IS.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18What will happen with them when they are freed?
0:09:18 > 0:09:20They need urgent help.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22And for that reason, it is very important that another
0:09:23 > 0:09:26country can support these women.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29And you've explained about some of the cases
0:09:29 > 0:09:33that you've come across, but I wonder if you could give us
0:09:33 > 0:09:35some more examples of the kind of tragic cases you've come
0:09:35 > 0:09:40across when you are interviewing these women.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42The most case that impressed me, because I'm a father,
0:09:42 > 0:09:48I have to daughters myself, was a 26 years woman,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50who was taken in the hands of IS.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53She was from Sinjar, a small village, with three
0:09:53 > 0:09:58children, her husband, his father, his father-in-law,
0:09:58 > 0:10:00and 20 and other family members were killed in front
0:10:00 > 0:10:05of her eyes, executed.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08And they take them hostage for 30 months, and she has
0:10:08 > 0:10:11a two years old girl, and she was also killed by IS,
0:10:11 > 0:10:13and she is now in Germany.
0:10:13 > 0:10:17She is my patient.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19So her two-year-old child was killed before her very eyes,
0:10:19 > 0:10:20amongst other family members?
0:10:20 > 0:10:24Yes, and always she says, I can accept my husband
0:10:24 > 0:10:30and my father are killed, but how they can kill
0:10:30 > 0:10:33a two-year-old girl.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35What is your answer to that?
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Because you have written a book, The Psychology Of Isis.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41You have interviewed three former IS fighters
0:10:41 > 0:10:43in prison in Kirkuk in Iraq.
0:10:43 > 0:10:51What makes somebody commit such an unspeakably evil act?
0:10:51 > 0:10:56What IS is doing after 2014, they have a set
0:10:56 > 0:10:59of some Islamic elements.
0:10:59 > 0:11:00A new ideology.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02It's not Islam, but it's ideology.
0:11:02 > 0:11:15Ideology makes a person blind.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17The IS has two criteria, two categories.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22One is a worse person, who belongs to the caliphate of al-Baghdadi,
0:11:22 > 0:11:33and other people are infidels, like Yazidis, Shias and Christians,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37and they have just the right to be a slave or to be killed.
0:11:37 > 0:11:38And so they make us an object.
0:11:39 > 0:11:45We are not human, a kind of dehumanisation of the human.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47They kill a Yazidi, an eight-year-old girl,
0:11:47 > 0:11:50and they view her as not human, they are like chickens,
0:11:50 > 0:12:01they are actually not a human, they have no feeling of empathy.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03They don't feel anything if they kill Kurds,
0:12:03 > 0:12:04this kind of person.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06This is how it works.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08If you look back to the history...
0:12:08 > 0:12:11I'm from Germany, and we witnessed this with the Nazi regime.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13The Nazi regime was the same with Jewish.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15I put to use something that Scott Atran, an anthropologist
0:12:15 > 0:12:19who has advised the United Nations and the White House on terror,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22and he says, we have to acknowledge that Isis fighters more similar
0:12:22 > 0:12:27to ask psychologically than we might like to believe.
0:12:28 > 0:12:28-- to us.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Violent people, members of militant political groups
0:12:30 > 0:12:33and religious groups are people, just like everyone else.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35It's unsettling to think that terrorists who commit violent acts
0:12:35 > 0:12:37are not psychologically disturbed or brainwashed.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39Do you agree with that assessment?
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Absolutely.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46I talk myself to 3 members of IS, and I examine interviews,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50and I can clearly say they have no psychological disorders.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Maybe 1% of them have any psychological problems, but most
0:12:53 > 0:12:58of them are very normal people.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01They came from normal families, had a normal biological background.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06But this kind of ideology changed people.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09But is it brainwashing?
0:13:09 > 0:13:11Scott Atran says it is not brainwashing.
0:13:11 > 0:13:12But you think it is?
0:13:12 > 0:13:13No, it's not.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16This is a concept of life.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19It makes us different to believe that, because we are living
0:13:19 > 0:13:23in a democratic country, we believe in individuals, and they
0:13:23 > 0:13:26have another concept of life.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30This concept of life is very different to our own.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34They believe in a collective way of life.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37They believe every person has to do the same, otherwise
0:13:37 > 0:13:40they have to be punished.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42But your main focus, of course, is working
0:13:42 > 0:13:45with the victims of the IS fighters, and there are, globally,
0:13:45 > 0:13:52about 1 million Yazidis.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55430,000 of them live in Iraq, and others also in Syria,
0:13:55 > 0:13:59and about 500 in Turkey and other parts of the world.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03There are 300,000 displaced.
0:14:03 > 0:14:10They need help, don't they, in the region where they live?
0:14:10 > 0:14:13Shouldn't that be your main objective, rather than seeking
0:14:13 > 0:14:17to resettle them in the West?
0:14:17 > 0:14:20We did do both.
0:14:20 > 0:14:26First, when we did this special programme, it was emergency cases.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30If we didn't help these people, they wouldn't survive.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33To give you an example, we've been talking about 5 million
0:14:33 > 0:14:35people living in northern Iraq.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38We have 26 psychiatrists and psychologists.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41They are not able to help them.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43As I mentioned, about 60 people, women and girls,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45committed suicide themselves.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48So it was an emergency issue.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50We had to help, otherwise they wouldn't have survived.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52The second, you are absolutely right.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55We have to do more projects in Iraq and Syria.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57The people must live there under different conditions,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01so we've started now to set up an institution of psychotherapy
0:15:01 > 0:15:03and psycho-traumatology.
0:15:03 > 0:15:09We will start that in March 2017, to train psychologists, doctors,
0:15:09 > 0:15:11to be psychotherapists, because they should be able
0:15:11 > 0:15:15to help their own people in their own country.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17And that is what you are doing in northern Iraq?
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Yes.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22And you are flying out there later this month to do that?
0:15:22 > 0:15:25I think the displaced number is between 300,000 and 400,000.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26400,000.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Could be as much as that.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31So when Nadia Murad and Lamiya Bashar, two Yazidi women
0:15:31 > 0:15:34who had been captured by IS and were awarded
0:15:34 > 0:15:36the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought, they say,
0:15:36 > 0:15:40if the world cannot protect the Yazidis in their homeland,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43we ask Europe to give us a safe new home.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45That's what they said in December, last month.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Are they wrong, then?
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Do you agree with that statement?
0:15:51 > 0:15:54I know Nadia because I examined her myself.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57She is one of the people of our programme, and also Lamiya,
0:15:57 > 0:15:59so I can understand, because what will happen
0:15:59 > 0:16:02after IS has gone?
0:16:02 > 0:16:06What will happen with Iraq?
0:16:06 > 0:16:14We are talking about nearly 450,000 Yazidis living in refugee camps,
0:16:14 > 0:16:15and about 800,000 living normally in Sinjar.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18What will happen then after this situation?
0:16:18 > 0:16:21What we are facing is, you know, the Yazidis face now
0:16:21 > 0:16:29the 71st time a genocide.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31Through the last 800 years, about 1,000,800 Yazidis
0:16:31 > 0:16:33were converted to Islam by force.
0:16:33 > 0:16:40About 1,000,200 Yazidis were killed in the last 800 years.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43So there is a kind of mistrust to the Islamic society,
0:16:43 > 0:16:45because every time they are massacred and face
0:16:45 > 0:16:46genocide by Muslims.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49So they need and they believe like Britain, like America,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52like European countries can help them to have a safe zone,
0:16:52 > 0:16:56and they will maybe have a kind of security, a feeling of security,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00at least, that they are not alone.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04That is the reason why I can understand Nadia Murad saying
0:17:04 > 0:17:08that we need a safe zone.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10Just picking up on that point of genocide.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12This is a point of fact.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14You say that genocide has been committed against the Yazidis,
0:17:14 > 0:17:17but not all members of the international community
0:17:17 > 0:17:18accept the term "genocide".
0:17:18 > 0:17:20The United Kingdom's government hasn't, for instance.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22The US state department has.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25But the point is, are you saying you agree with these two Yazidi
0:17:25 > 0:17:28women that the objective is that all Yazidis should be
0:17:28 > 0:17:32resettled in the West, because there is compassion fatigue
0:17:32 > 0:17:36now, isn't there?
0:17:36 > 0:17:38In a lot of western countries.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41People are saying, we don't want open door refugee policies.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44We've seen the kind of criticisms that Angela Merkel,
0:17:44 > 0:17:46the Chancellor of Germany, has been receiving because
0:17:46 > 0:17:50of her open-door policy.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53I believe, if we are talking about one of the oldest
0:17:53 > 0:17:56religions in the world, at least in the Middle East,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59the Yazidis have a history of about 4000 years.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02They should live like Christians, in their homeland.
0:18:02 > 0:18:09For that reason, we have a new scenario, political ideas,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12of how we can give them a feeling of security,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14give them a new structure.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18For me, the best way is to come back to Sinjar, to that area,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21but maybe the world community could help to make Sinjar reborn.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26It is totally destroyed.
0:18:26 > 0:18:32Maybe they can give it some ideas of how to live free,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36to give some militia, to give schools in Kurdish,
0:18:36 > 0:18:38to allow them to live like Yazidis.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Benefits for them to remain in the region?
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Yes.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47Do you believe that the vast majority of these 1100 women
0:18:47 > 0:18:51and children who you have resettled in Germany, and you are hoping that
0:18:51 > 0:18:59more will go to Canada, for instance, of those former
0:18:59 > 0:19:02captives of IS who are still being held, do you think
0:19:02 > 0:19:04they will stay in Germany?
0:19:04 > 0:19:06They will never go back to the region, will they?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09In that time, when I'm talking to the women,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11because I'm still responsible for the medical and psychological
0:19:11 > 0:19:20issue for these women and girls, about 90% of them don't want to go
0:19:20 > 0:19:22back to Iraq, because the war is going on.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Still we have IS in Sinjar, but what will happen in five
0:19:25 > 0:19:27years and ten years, I didn't know.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Maybe if they have more rights, there is a democracy in Iraq,
0:19:31 > 0:19:32maybe they will go back.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34But most of them don't want to go back.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38And when Mrs Merkel also talks about the refugees coming
0:19:38 > 0:19:40to Germany, she says, the necessity of integrating these
0:19:40 > 0:19:42newcomers is very important, so that they adhere
0:19:42 > 0:19:43to Germany's democratic values.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48That's something you agree with, presumably?
0:19:48 > 0:19:49Absolutely.
0:19:50 > 0:19:51Our programme is very different.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53All the women are visiting schools.
0:19:53 > 0:19:54They are learning German.
0:19:54 > 0:20:01They are now starting to work.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06They have psychotherapy and medical treatment,
0:20:06 > 0:20:11but they are living in 24 different kinds of cities in small groups.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14They have a good contact with Germans, and integration
0:20:14 > 0:20:15is very important.
0:20:15 > 0:20:16All immigrants have to be integrated.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19If you learn the culture, the values and the languages,
0:20:19 > 0:20:25you have more competence for yourself and for this country.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28And these women are very motivated, because they know what it
0:20:28 > 0:20:32means to be tortured, to be not free.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35They are now free, and they are very motivated, with high self-confidence
0:20:35 > 0:20:40to do something with their lives, to have a job, to go to school.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41We have children.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Our children are visiting schools, and they are very successful.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48How are the children coping?
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Because you talked about girls as young as eight being raped
0:20:51 > 0:20:53multiple times, and that kind of unimaginable trauma
0:20:53 > 0:20:57and experience they must have gone through.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59How are they?
0:20:59 > 0:21:02To give you an example, we have some children
0:21:02 > 0:21:05between four and ten years old.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09They are visiting now two schools.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13The first question they asked me in Iraq was, do you have
0:21:13 > 0:21:13in Germany schools?
0:21:13 > 0:21:15I said, yes, we have schools.
0:21:15 > 0:21:16Because they are motivated.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18They want to go to school.
0:21:18 > 0:21:23School means to give structure.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Every day they get up at 7.00am, they go to school, they come back,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28they have orientation, they have security and
0:21:28 > 0:21:29a feeling of safeness.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31These three basics are very important.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34If they have a feeling of security, they have orientation
0:21:34 > 0:21:36and a structure, the children are very clever.
0:21:36 > 0:21:41They can learn and they can cope with this.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44We believe there are about 1000 children who were taken
0:21:44 > 0:21:48by IS and used as child soldiers.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52Have you come across any of them, any of these, in some of the ones
0:21:52 > 0:21:55you have taken back to Germany, and how are they coping?
0:21:55 > 0:21:58We have actually a small group of ten to 12 persons
0:21:58 > 0:22:05who were soldiers, IS soldiers, and we need a social concept,
0:22:05 > 0:22:10to talk with them, to be with them, and you need at least two years
0:22:10 > 0:22:13to work with social work and psychologists with these people.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16So we are talking about brainwashing in these cases,
0:22:16 > 0:22:17they are brainwashed.
0:22:17 > 0:22:24They need time, and they need to trust us again,
0:22:24 > 0:22:28because they don't trust any person anymore, because,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30for example, a six-year-old boy, the father ran away,
0:22:30 > 0:22:32and he was alone with his mother.
0:22:32 > 0:22:41They then took the mother away, and after, they came back together.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43He mistrusted his father and his mother.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45He said, they left me alone.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48So it is a kind of feeling of children.
0:22:48 > 0:22:49Bonding is very important.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53They must feel they are not alone.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Your colleague, Michael Bloom, in this so-called special quota
0:22:56 > 0:23:00project to bring Yazidis from northern Iraq to Germany, says,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03more and more Yazidis understand that if they want to survive
0:23:04 > 0:23:06in the diaspora, then they might have to reform
0:23:06 > 0:23:09some of their teachings.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12For instance, some of your customs, like endogenous marriage,
0:23:12 > 0:23:14whereby a Yazidi should marry another Yazidi is one
0:23:14 > 0:23:16of your customs.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19But as people live in the West, they are going to be
0:23:19 > 0:23:21losing these customs, aren't they, in time?
0:23:21 > 0:23:24So the irony is, you rescue them as individuals,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27as human beings, but as a community, the Yazidi community may be
0:23:27 > 0:23:28threatened by assimilation.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32Not really.
0:23:32 > 0:23:38We are talking about 120 Yazidis who are living in Germany,
0:23:38 > 0:23:42so since 15 years, the last 15 years, but we have a huge group
0:23:42 > 0:23:44in the Yazidi community, so Yazidi women and girls
0:23:44 > 0:23:46are not alone.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48They have friends, they have Yazidi communities, they have
0:23:48 > 0:23:52Yazidi associations, and so I believe they can survive.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54All right.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Jan Kizilhan, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59Thank you. Thank you.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23Hello. I hope you enjoyed the weekend.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25For many it has been grey and murky.