0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14The people of South Sudan have known little peace for many decades,
0:00:14 > 0:00:17and independence in 2011 has brought them nothing but war,
0:00:17 > 0:00:19increasing poverty and starvation, and suffering.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Tens of thousands have died, and more than 3 million have been
0:00:22 > 0:00:25forced to leave their homes in the past three years.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27The United Nations says, "The current spate of fighting
0:00:27 > 0:00:30amounts to ethnic cleansing, and could spiral into genocide."
0:00:30 > 0:00:33The main rebel group is headed by the former Vice President,
0:00:33 > 0:00:40Riek Machar, who is now in exile.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43My guest today is his wife, Angelina Teny, who is a senior
0:00:43 > 0:00:53member of the movement.
0:00:53 > 0:00:54How much responsibility do they bear for the suffering in South Sudan?
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Angelina Teney, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22Thank you very much.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24The situation in South Sudan is dire.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26What are you hearing about what's going on on the ground?
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Well, you said it is dire.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31The humanitarian situation has reached a level of catastrophe.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34The war is escalating even further, and the economic situation,
0:01:34 > 0:01:37what we could say is it is no longer on a free fall,
0:01:37 > 0:01:39but rather it has crashed the country.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43So, in a nutshell, you can say that the situation for the normal
0:01:43 > 0:01:58citizen, for the person there, is really one of desperation.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00The United Nations humanitarian chief, Stephen O'Brien,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03says that 6 million people, that's half of the population,
0:02:03 > 0:02:04are in need of humanitarian assistance.
0:02:04 > 0:02:065 million are in danger of starvation.
0:02:06 > 0:02:093 million have been forced to leave their homes.
0:02:09 > 0:02:21A million refugees, 2 million internally displaced people.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Who do you think is responsible for this?
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Well, I can say that we are responsible for ending it,
0:02:26 > 0:02:28and this is where the responsibility...
0:02:28 > 0:02:31We'll all come to that, about ending it, but who do
0:02:31 > 0:02:33you think is behind all this?
0:02:33 > 0:02:36I would say the way our president, President Salva, led the country has
0:02:36 > 0:02:39really led to this situation, because what had happened
0:02:39 > 0:02:40is that our country, just before starting,
0:02:40 > 0:02:50from 2011, was turned into a police state.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52So dissenting views are really not accepted.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56Then, when members of the ruling party, the SPLM, tried to start
0:02:56 > 0:02:59a dialogue within the party in order to recreate a vision and a direction
0:02:59 > 0:03:18for the country, the President did not welcome that.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22You claim President Salva Kiir of South Sudan, but I have to put it
0:03:22 > 0:03:25to you that your husband, Riek Machar, who is the main rebel
0:03:25 > 0:03:27leader, has been a significant player in South Sudan
0:03:27 > 0:03:37for three decades.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41He's been a Vice President, on and off, for 15 years,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44and he has to share the blame for the situation that the people
0:03:44 > 0:03:48of South Sudan find themselves in today.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Well, definitely I cannot say that he has been out of the system.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55He has been in the system in South Sudan, but what you have
0:03:55 > 0:03:58to know is that my chairman, when he decided to actually raise
0:03:58 > 0:04:01the concerns that our country was facing, that is what brought
0:04:01 > 0:04:04the fallout, and that is what actually led President Salva
0:04:04 > 0:04:06to introduce violence, in order to rest finally peaceful
0:04:06 > 0:04:17dialogues within the party and within the country.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20You're talking about the recent fallout that the two men
0:04:20 > 0:04:31had last year?
0:04:31 > 0:04:31Yes.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35About that one, not just from 2013, because you know we've been engaged
0:04:35 > 0:04:38in trying to, during the interim period, really to ensure
0:04:38 > 0:04:39that the referendum succeeds.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41While we were doing that, President Salva was also
0:04:41 > 0:04:42asserting his dictatorship.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43Our disagreements started...
0:04:43 > 0:04:46He was elected, and your husband, Riek Machar, you were referring
0:04:46 > 0:04:54to the referendum in 2011 that brought independence to South Sudan,
0:04:54 > 0:04:56has been an ally, a deputy to him.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00But let me just carry on my train of thought for you,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03which is that Riek Machar must share the burden of responsibility
0:05:03 > 0:05:08for what's going on.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10South Sudan analyst, former deputy defence minister
0:05:10 > 0:05:13Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun class in South Sudan,
0:05:13 > 0:05:14"Sectarian warlords, like Riek Machar, who have
0:05:14 > 0:05:17historically used violence, channelled through appeals to ethnic
0:05:17 > 0:05:21nationalism, to hijack the state for personal gain."
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Well, I would dispute that as an accurate statement,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27because also Majak, as you know, is another politician from South
0:05:27 > 0:05:27Sudan...
0:05:27 > 0:05:29But he has been allied to your...
0:05:29 > 0:05:31However, I want to establish the fact that my husband,
0:05:31 > 0:05:41or let me say my chairman...
0:05:41 > 0:05:42Chairman of the SPLM-in Opposition.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45..has been on records all the time trying to correct the situation,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48trying to introduce institutional reforms, systems of governance that
0:05:48 > 0:05:50will ensure a democratic transformation, and this is actually
0:05:51 > 0:05:57what brings the fallout between the leaders.
0:05:57 > 0:05:57OK.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59I want to make it...
0:05:59 > 0:06:03I am not here to say that there aren't many abundant
0:06:03 > 0:06:05criticism of President Salva Kiir's government.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07There are many, from the international community,
0:06:07 > 0:06:08from within South Sudan.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11But I am talking to you, as a senior member of
0:06:11 > 0:06:12the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16If there are issues to put to the government of South Sudan,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19we on HARDtalk will do that when we talk to them.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22But if I may just continue with putting to you some
0:06:22 > 0:06:25of the criticisms that are made about your movement.
0:06:25 > 0:06:35So, you say that civilians are being killed on the basis
0:06:35 > 0:06:37of tribal affiliations, but there are reliable reports that
0:06:37 > 0:06:39rebel forces of your opposition movement, or affiliated
0:06:39 > 0:06:42with your movement, have also killed and raped civilians.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43What is your response to that?
0:06:43 > 0:06:48If you go back to the records, including even the UN report,
0:06:48 > 0:06:51you will find since when we officially established the SPLM-IO
0:06:51 > 0:06:53in April 2014, that those those incidences have,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56in one way or another, what ever that had happened before
0:06:56 > 0:06:58that we have investigated, and we have actually addressed,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01since that, our movement has not made it a policy,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04and therefore, you will not find that there are incidences actually
0:07:04 > 0:07:26attributed to us since we established organised.
0:07:26 > 0:07:27Well, I'll give you one.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Sorry to interrupt you.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Human Rights Watch says in October 2016, rebels claiming affiliation
0:07:34 > 0:07:37with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy of cars and trucks carrying
0:07:37 > 0:07:38civilians fleeing Yei, killing mostly Dinka.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41The Dinka, of course, are the tribe of President Salva Kiir -
0:07:41 > 0:07:55according to the CIA World Factbook, about 36%
0:07:55 > 0:07:56of South Sudan's population.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Then Nuer tribe, from which you and your husband
0:07:59 > 0:07:59hail, about 15%.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03I know the figures are disputed, that they are the most recent
0:08:03 > 0:08:03ones we have.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06Anyway, the point is that Dinka were killed, mostly,
0:08:06 > 0:08:07in this incident in Yei.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09An 11-year-old boy said, "They started to shoot,
0:08:09 > 0:08:10and I lay down.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12Others fell on top of me.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16The rebels then burned the truck, killing dozens of occupants inside."
0:08:16 > 0:08:17We have come across that.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Actually, my chairman has directed an investigation if these are people
0:08:21 > 0:08:23truly affiliated to us, because our people on the ground
0:08:23 > 0:08:25are under orders, with clear and specific instructions,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28that they are not fighting a war with anyone.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Rather, they are resisting the onslaught from the government.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32So that incident that has been attributed
0:08:32 > 0:08:34by the Human Rights Watch, we have investigated.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Our forces on that part of South Sudan have actually denied
0:08:38 > 0:09:01any responsibility, or being part of it.
0:09:01 > 0:09:02I give you another example.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04Have you done anything about this?
0:09:04 > 0:09:06The United Nations Mission, UNMISS, in South Sudan,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09said in a very detailed report in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces
0:09:09 > 0:09:12sacked the oil town of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds
0:09:12 > 0:09:15of civilians, notably in the mosque, the hospital, the market
0:09:15 > 0:09:17and surrounding areas."
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Definitely, actually, the ICRC has done a report
0:09:19 > 0:09:23and we have a commission, and we have actually made the report
0:09:23 > 0:09:25public, and the people that were identified by the ICRC
0:09:25 > 0:09:31were brought to book by...
0:09:31 > 0:09:33The International Committee of the Red Cross, yes.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35I could go on and on, actually.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38I don't want to keep on doing that, but there are...
0:09:38 > 0:09:41You know, UNMISS, the United Nations mission, says there are reasonable
0:09:41 > 0:09:46grounds to believe that violations of international human rights
0:09:46 > 0:09:49and humanitarian law have been committed by both parties
0:09:49 > 0:09:49to the conflict.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52I would not deny absolutely to say nothing had happened,
0:09:52 > 0:09:56that I would say it is not a policy, and we are very determined
0:09:56 > 0:09:59to always, when something like that happens, it is addressed,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02it is investigated, and the culprits are actually brought to account.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06Because...
0:10:06 > 0:10:06War is tragic.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09Yes, it is tragic, but we, as a responsible organisation,
0:10:09 > 0:10:12don't believe you should allow people who do that to get
0:10:12 > 0:10:13away with it.
0:10:13 > 0:10:19UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides to control their forces.
0:10:19 > 0:10:26Can you control your forces?
0:10:26 > 0:10:30We have, because if you go back to the incidences of the Juba crisis
0:10:30 > 0:10:33on July 8th, you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition
0:10:33 > 0:10:35conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling
0:10:35 > 0:10:37you that we have actually got directives and protections,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that happened
0:10:45 > 0:10:47in Juba after that, well, everybody knows
0:10:47 > 0:10:57about it, the killings...
0:10:57 > 0:11:00You are talking about the active combat that broke out in July last
0:11:00 > 0:11:03year in the South Sudanese capital, Juba, between Salva Kiir
0:11:03 > 0:11:04and Riek Machar's forces.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08But I have to say to you that you did not emerge without criticism
0:11:08 > 0:11:09from that situation.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Human Rights Watch again said, "Regardless of the intentions
0:11:11 > 0:11:13of Machar's forces, of going into civilian sites,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16the impact of the manoeuvre was to endanger the thousands
0:11:16 > 0:11:19of civilians who were sheltering in these UN protection sites,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22and that would constitute a war crime of using human shields."
0:11:22 > 0:11:24And they also said, "Any Dinka civilians who remained
0:11:24 > 0:11:30in the town risked death."
0:11:30 > 0:11:33So you raised one example of what went on there in July,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36and I'm saying to you, again, that the forces
0:11:36 > 0:11:42of the SPLM-in-Opposition had not emerged unscathed.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44Well, we tried to withdraw...
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Given that our side was very close to the UN protection site,
0:11:47 > 0:11:49this is where the whole battle actually took place.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52So we had no way of withdrawing other than through that route,
0:11:52 > 0:11:57because the UN is very close.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59But what ever your intentions were, you endangered civilians.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02I think it is worth explaining that, as the conflict research
0:12:02 > 0:12:05American Alan Boswell, based in Kenya, writing a book
0:12:05 > 0:12:08about South Sudan, says," I think you have to different wars
0:12:08 > 0:12:09going on in South Sudan.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11You have a fight between President Salva Kiir
0:12:11 > 0:12:14and Riek Machar's coalitions over who will be king,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18but there are a bunch of smaller groups in South Sudan who are waging
0:12:18 > 0:12:23war against the kingdom itself."
0:12:23 > 0:12:26So we accept that there are a range of different perpetrators
0:12:26 > 0:12:29and unnamed militia groups and so one, but the fact does
0:12:29 > 0:12:32remain, and I ask you again, what do you say to the criticisms
0:12:32 > 0:12:34that forces of the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition
0:12:34 > 0:12:37have committed some of these atrocities against civilians -
0:12:37 > 0:12:39rape, looting, killing, violence, that you yourself had condemned?
0:12:39 > 0:12:50What do you say?
0:12:50 > 0:12:53We are saying that, as a movement, we do not condone any of this.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56Even when we were negotiating the agreement, the agreement
0:12:56 > 0:12:59and the resolution of the conflict in the Republic of South Sudan,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02we stood very firm, and we are on record.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04We fought for the inclusion of transitional justice.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Actually, we say justice and accountability.
0:13:06 > 0:13:07And this is still the cornerstone.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10And this is because we feel that we must end impunity,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13and we must make people who actually commit crimes against other human
0:13:13 > 0:13:27beings must be made accountable.
0:13:27 > 0:13:28Including anybody from your...
0:13:28 > 0:13:35Including your chairman, your husband?
0:13:35 > 0:13:39We call for it, we call for it because we feel that it is needed.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42It is what will end the situation in South sedan.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44It will end impunity, and we say it without exception.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45Without exception?
0:13:45 > 0:13:46Including your husband?
0:13:46 > 0:13:47We say it without exception.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49Right.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Just on this point of genocide, which is a very, very important one,
0:13:53 > 0:13:55because Adama Dieng, the UN Special Adviser
0:13:55 > 0:13:58on the Prevention of Genocide, said at the end of last year,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01after visiting South Sudan, "I was dismayed that what I saw
0:14:01 > 0:14:03confirmed my concern that there is a strong risk
0:14:03 > 0:14:06of violence escalating along ethnic lines with the potential
0:14:06 > 0:14:07to spiral into genocide.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09I do not say that lightly."
0:14:09 > 0:14:13I mean, is that a possibility?
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Our thinking is not even looming, but rather in progress.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18Already the Obasanjo report, which is the report
0:14:18 > 0:14:23by the Commission of the...
0:14:23 > 0:14:27The former president of Nigeria.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29..had already established that ethnic cleansing in Juba took
0:14:29 > 0:14:30place in 2013.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33In the span of one week, over 20,000 people were killed just
0:14:33 > 0:14:35because they belonged to an ethnic group.
0:14:35 > 0:14:46This was done by men in uniform, by government.
0:14:46 > 0:14:52Well, that's your accusation, and I'm sure it will be looked at.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Now, when you come to this situation today, it is even worse,
0:14:55 > 0:14:56because it has spread.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59It is in Southern Unity, it is in Central Equatoria,
0:14:59 > 0:15:01it is in Western Equatoria.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05We have just walked from Juba, after July.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09And we have seen it with our own eyes, and it is a plan organised
0:15:09 > 0:15:10by the government.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13President Salva is on record saying that we will hand them
0:15:13 > 0:15:18down like rats.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20Well, as I said, we are not here...
0:15:20 > 0:15:22There are criticisms made about Salva Kiir,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26but I have to put it to you that you are parties to this conflict,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29and arguably, are fuelling a lot of the violence that
0:15:29 > 0:15:31you yourself condemn.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34For example, in September last year, your movement,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36the SPLM-in-Opposition, declared war on what it described
0:15:36 > 0:15:40as the "regime" in Juba, saying it wants to wage a popular
0:15:40 > 0:15:42armed resistance against the authoritarian and fascist regime
0:15:42 > 0:15:44of President Salva Kiir in order to bring peace,
0:15:44 > 0:15:54freedom, democracy and the rule of law in the country.
0:15:54 > 0:15:55We have not declared war.
0:15:55 > 0:15:56We said resistance.
0:15:56 > 0:15:57Armed resistance.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00Because there is already a war going on, because already the regime
0:16:01 > 0:16:08of Salva was already on offensive.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11But you are parties to the conflict.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14The evidence to that is that, unless you are telling us
0:16:14 > 0:16:18don't protect yourself...
0:16:18 > 0:16:21I have to say to you, but you know yourself,
0:16:21 > 0:16:23Angelina Teney, that there was widespread condemnation
0:16:23 > 0:16:24when that statement was made.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27The US State Department's spokesman, John Kirby, 28 September,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30said, "The US government strongly condemns Riek Machar's statement."
0:16:30 > 0:16:34A joint statement by the troika powers, the EU, Norway and the US,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37as well as other governments also condemned calls by the opposition
0:16:37 > 0:16:38leaders for a renewal of armed conflict.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41"Further fighting won't solve South Sudan's pressing political
0:16:41 > 0:16:42and economic challenges.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44It will only increase the suffering of South Sudan's
0:16:44 > 0:16:45people", they said.
0:16:45 > 0:16:46I could go on and on.
0:16:46 > 0:16:53It was widespread condemnation.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56I can tell you that if you saw the communique that we issued
0:16:56 > 0:16:59during that meeting, it talks about a political process
0:16:59 > 0:17:01that is needed for the resuscitation of this agreement.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04That statement of the resistance was actually the last point
0:17:04 > 0:17:05in that communique.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08So it was an option for the people of South Sudan to continue,
0:17:08 > 0:17:11to be defended from the onslaught that is going on.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13So our declaration is actually for a political process.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17It isn't.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20Look, that is not how it is being seen at all.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Let me ask you this.
0:17:24 > 0:17:25I'm correcting you.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28The East African Group of Nations, known as EGAD, has said,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31on the 9th of December in a communique, "We call
0:17:31 > 0:17:33upon the SPLM-in-Opposition to renounce violence as a means
0:17:33 > 0:17:35of solving the problems of South Sudan."
0:17:35 > 0:17:40Do you renounce violence?
0:17:40 > 0:17:43We say, tell the government in Juba to stop the offensive,
0:17:43 > 0:17:45the pursuit of people based on ethnic affiliation,
0:17:45 > 0:17:46based on political affiliation.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49We say that if you hold the government to account,
0:17:49 > 0:17:51because the government in Juba gets encouraged with this statement,
0:17:51 > 0:17:53and they are being let off the hook.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56In fact, they are the one on the offensive.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58Whatever the opposition is doing, it's basically fighting
0:17:58 > 0:18:03back, to resist.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06So you won't renounce violence?
0:18:06 > 0:18:11You're saying you're resisting, but you use violence to resist?
0:18:11 > 0:18:16What else to we do?
0:18:16 > 0:18:19The other options are, you go to be a refugee,
0:18:19 > 0:18:23you go to be internally displaced, or you go to a UN protection camp,
0:18:23 > 0:18:27but if you find yourself, that there is a way you can fight
0:18:27 > 0:18:30back, these people will fight back, especially when there is no hope
0:18:30 > 0:18:38now, without any peace process in place.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40You talk about the peace process.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Of course, there was a deal in August 2015, known
0:18:43 > 0:18:46as "the agreement" for a resolution of the conflict in South Sudan.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49You think that there is still a way forward by resuscitating that?
0:18:49 > 0:19:01Definitely.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03But there are also reports, as we had in October,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06that Riek Machar announced that that agreement was dead.
0:19:06 > 0:19:07It has collapsed.
0:19:07 > 0:19:08The agreement has collapsed.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11We feel that it needs to be renewed so that it is resuscitated,
0:19:11 > 0:19:15so that the people of South Sudan are given a chance again to start.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Remember, we did take risks and we did go to Juba
0:19:18 > 0:19:29to implement that agreement.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Only even based on some of the UN reports, as you know,
0:19:32 > 0:19:34President Salva started to introduce violence,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36and we had to leave Juba under that fire.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Now we are still committed to a political settlement.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41This political settlement, we believe that this agreement has
0:19:41 > 0:19:43a lot of good things in it.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47It any needs to be revived, to be reviewed, so that we can also
0:19:47 > 0:19:48embark now on its implementation.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50But really, you've been marginalised, you've been pushed
0:19:50 > 0:19:52to the sidelines, Riek Machar, the leader
0:19:52 > 0:19:53of the SPLM-in-Opposition.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56We've seen Taban Deng appointed as the new Vice President.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58The international community have lined up behind him,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01and President Salva Kiir, rightly or wrongly, is being seen
0:20:01 > 0:20:03as somebody that the international community can deal with.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Festus Mogae, former president of Botswana,
0:20:05 > 0:20:07who chairs the joint monitoring and evaluation commission,
0:20:07 > 0:20:09has said, I applaud Salva Kiir's leadership.
0:20:09 > 0:20:16So you've been written out of the picture.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19OK.
0:20:19 > 0:20:20Has the war stopped?
0:20:20 > 0:20:23The war hasn't stopped, but the international community has
0:20:23 > 0:20:26lined up a between Salva Kiir and his new deputy, Taban Deng,
0:20:26 > 0:20:30who is from the Nuer tribe, as you are.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32You've just spoken about a genocide looming.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35This is a report by the UN.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38If that government was doing something that was good
0:20:38 > 0:20:40for the country, definitely there would be no reports talking
0:20:40 > 0:20:42about genocide in that country.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44So, in a nutshell, the peace agreement has collapsed.
0:20:44 > 0:20:50There is no agreement in place.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53The government continues to pursue a scorched earth policy
0:20:53 > 0:20:55for targeting civilians, for targeting those that
0:20:55 > 0:20:55are dissenting voices.
0:20:55 > 0:21:01Now the war has escalated even more.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04So if the international community believe, and President Salva Kiir
0:21:04 > 0:21:11believes, that by having Taban Deng as his deputy,
0:21:11 > 0:21:15replacing the person appointed by the government,
0:21:15 > 0:21:25will bring peace, we should have seen peace now.
0:21:25 > 0:21:26Well, they are working on it.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29In December last year, President Salva Kiir announced
0:21:29 > 0:21:30a new national dialogue.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Again, the international community have said they will support this
0:21:32 > 0:21:35national dialogue in any way that they can.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Why don't you join this national dialogue and renounce violence?
0:21:37 > 0:21:41The national dialogue can never be a replacement for a peace process
0:21:41 > 0:21:45that would end the war.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48A national dialogue, you need a conducive environment
0:21:48 > 0:21:49where people can actually freely speak.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51Something that is absent now in South Sudan.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56For you to join a national dialogue, you first of all must create
0:21:56 > 0:21:59the environment whereby you have that space for everybody to be able
0:21:59 > 0:22:01to express themselves.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04And this is what we are saying.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06Let's create that space by resuscitating the agreement,
0:22:06 > 0:22:08and once the agreement is resuscitated, we will have
0:22:08 > 0:22:11the environment, and the agreement now provides the road map
0:22:11 > 0:22:20for the dialogue.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24How can you do that when Riek Machar is in South Africa?
0:22:24 > 0:22:26By the way, is he in exile?
0:22:26 > 0:22:28Is he under house arrest in South Africa?
0:22:28 > 0:22:29He's not under house arrest.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31Under country arrest, as it were?
0:22:31 > 0:22:33The South Africans themselves have answered and said he's not
0:22:34 > 0:22:34under house arrest.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36So why isn't he going around lobbying governments,
0:22:36 > 0:22:38and you're doing it instead?
0:22:38 > 0:22:40Because I'm a member of the movement.
0:22:40 > 0:22:41Remember, I negotiated our security...
0:22:41 > 0:22:41Sure.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43But can he move around?
0:22:43 > 0:22:43He can move.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47Is he going to go back to South Sudan, not to Juba...
0:22:47 > 0:22:47Definitely.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48South Sudan is home.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50But I really want to go back to...
0:22:50 > 0:22:51He will go back?
0:22:51 > 0:22:52Definitely.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Does he still think he's Vice President?
0:22:56 > 0:22:58He's not Vice President, because there's no transitional
0:22:58 > 0:23:00government of national unity in place.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02The government in Juba is the regime.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05Since the agreement has collapsed, that leaves you with a regime that
0:23:05 > 0:23:06he's not part of.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Finally, in the last few seconds, a senior African statesman,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12who is very aware of what is going on in South Sudan,
0:23:12 > 0:23:16has told me that South Sudan will know no peace until both
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Salva Kiir and Riek Machar quit the scene.
0:23:18 > 0:23:19He's right, isn't he?
0:23:19 > 0:23:26He's not right.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29He's not right?
0:23:29 > 0:23:30He's not right.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32Because we, as in opposition, offer an alternative.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35We have a programme in place that we believe we actually can
0:23:35 > 0:23:43transform that country, and move it to the next level.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47We know that President Salva Kiir cannot do that, because he has been
0:23:47 > 0:23:48given many opportunities.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50We try even to do it with him.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53We even introduced, before the outbreak of the 2013 crisis,
0:23:53 > 0:23:56a process of national reconciliation that would allow the South Sudanese
0:23:56 > 0:23:57people to actually move on.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58President Salva abrogated it.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Angelina Teney, we leave it there.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02Thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:02 > 0:24:12Thank you.