:00:00. > :00:00.online TV service in the UK by 2020. You are up today. Now, it is
:00:00. > :00:08.aardvark. Welcome to HARDtalk,
:00:09. > :00:10.with me, Zeinab Badawi. The people of South Sudan have known
:00:11. > :00:12.little peace for many decades, and independence in 2011 has brought
:00:13. > :00:15.them nothing but war, increasing poverty and
:00:16. > :00:20.starvation, and suffering. Tens of thousands have died,
:00:21. > :00:24.and more than 3 million have been forced to leave their homes
:00:25. > :00:28.in the past three years. The United Nations says,
:00:29. > :00:30."The current spate of fighting amounts to ethnic cleansing,
:00:31. > :00:32.and could spiral into genocide." The main rebel group is headed
:00:33. > :00:37.by the former Vice President, My guest today is his wife,
:00:38. > :00:42.Angelina Teny, who is a senior How much responsibility do they bear
:00:43. > :00:47.for the suffering in South Sudan? The situation in
:00:48. > :01:22.South Sudan is dire. What are you hearing about what's
:01:23. > :01:26.going on on the ground? The humanitarian situation has
:01:27. > :01:33.reached a level of catastrophe. The war is escalating even further,
:01:34. > :01:41.and the economic situation, what we could say is it is no longer
:01:42. > :01:45.on a free fall, but rather it has So, in a nutshell, you can
:01:46. > :01:50.say that the situation for the normal citizen,
:01:51. > :01:53.for the person there, The United Nations humanitarian
:01:54. > :01:59.chief, Stephen O'Brien, says that 6 million people,
:02:00. > :02:04.that's half of the population, are 5 million are in
:02:05. > :02:11.danger of starvation. 3 million have been forced
:02:12. > :02:14.to leave their homes. A million refugees, 2 million
:02:15. > :02:18.internally displaced people. Who do you think is
:02:19. > :02:21.responsible for this? Well, I can say that we are
:02:22. > :02:24.responsible for ending it, and this We'll all come to that,
:02:25. > :02:29.about ending it, but who do I would say the way our president,
:02:30. > :02:36.President Salva, led the country has really led to this situation,
:02:37. > :02:39.because what had happened is that our country,
:02:40. > :02:42.just before starting, from 2011, was turned
:02:43. > :02:48.into a police state. So dissenting views
:02:49. > :02:55.are really not accepted. Then, when members of the ruling
:02:56. > :03:04.party, the SPLM, tried to start a dialogue within the party in order
:03:05. > :03:13.to recreate a vision and a direction for the country,
:03:14. > :03:16.the President did not welcome that. You claim President Salva Kiir
:03:17. > :03:19.of South Sudan, but I have to put it to you that your husband,
:03:20. > :03:22.Riek Machar, who is the main rebel leader, has been a significant
:03:23. > :03:27.player in South Sudan He's been a Vice President,
:03:28. > :03:37.on and off, for 15 years, and he has to share the blame
:03:38. > :03:40.for the situation that the people of South Sudan find
:03:41. > :03:45.themselves in today. Well, definitely I cannot say
:03:46. > :03:56.that he has been out of the system. He has been in the system
:03:57. > :03:59.in South Sudan, but what you have to know is that my chairman,
:04:00. > :04:06.when he decided to actually raise the concerns that our country
:04:07. > :04:08.was facing, that is what brought the fallout, and that is
:04:09. > :04:11.what actually led President Salva to introduce violence,
:04:12. > :04:15.in order to rest finally peaceful dialogues within the party
:04:16. > :04:17.and within the country. You're talking about the recent
:04:18. > :04:19.fallout that the two About that one, not just from 2013,
:04:20. > :04:30.because you know we've been engaged in trying to,
:04:31. > :04:32.during the interim period, really to ensure that
:04:33. > :04:34.the referendum succeeds. While we were doing that,
:04:35. > :04:37.President Salva was also He was elected, and your husband,
:04:38. > :04:44.Riek Machar, you were referring to the referendum in 2011 that
:04:45. > :04:46.brought independence to South Sudan, But let me just carry
:04:47. > :04:53.on my train of thought for you, which is that Riek Machar must share
:04:54. > :04:56.the burden of responsibility South Sudan analyst,
:04:57. > :05:03.former deputy defence minister Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun
:05:04. > :05:06.class in South Sudan, "Sectarian warlords,
:05:07. > :05:09.like Riek Machar, who have historically used violence,
:05:10. > :05:14.channelled through appeals to ethnic nationalism,
:05:15. > :05:16.to hijack the state Well, I would dispute that
:05:17. > :05:20.as an accurate statement, because also Majak, as you know,
:05:21. > :05:23.is another politician However, I want to establish
:05:24. > :05:32.the fact that my husband, ..has been on records all the time
:05:33. > :05:43.trying to correct the situation, trying to introduce institutional
:05:44. > :05:49.reforms, systems of governance that will ensure a democratic
:05:50. > :05:54.transformation, and this is actually what brings the fallout
:05:55. > :05:57.between the leaders. I am not here to say
:05:58. > :06:02.that there aren't many abundant criticism of
:06:03. > :06:06.President Salva Kiir's government. There are many, from
:06:07. > :06:08.the international community, But I am talking to you,
:06:09. > :06:13.as a senior member of the Sudan People's Liberation
:06:14. > :06:17.Movement-in-Opposition. If there are issues to put
:06:18. > :06:20.to the government of South Sudan, we on HARDtalk will do that
:06:21. > :06:23.when we talk to them. But if I may just continue
:06:24. > :06:26.with putting to you some of the criticisms that are made
:06:27. > :06:31.about your movement. So, you say that civilians
:06:32. > :06:34.are being killed on the basis of tribal affiliations,
:06:35. > :06:40.but there are reliable reports that rebel forces
:06:41. > :06:45.of your opposition movement, or affiliated with your
:06:46. > :06:47.movement, have also killed If you go back to the records,
:06:48. > :06:55.including even the UN report, you will find
:06:56. > :06:57.since when we officially established the SPLM-IO in April 2014,
:06:58. > :07:03.that those those incidences have, in one way or another,
:07:04. > :07:08.what ever that had happened before that we have investigated,
:07:09. > :07:12.and we have actually addressed, since that, our movement has
:07:13. > :07:16.not made it a policy, and therefore, you will not find
:07:17. > :07:19.that there are incidences actually attributed to us
:07:20. > :07:24.since we established organised. Human Rights Watch says in October
:07:25. > :07:30.2016, rebels claiming affiliation with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy
:07:31. > :07:33.of cars and trucks carrying civilians fleeing Yei,
:07:34. > :07:37.killing mostly Dinka. The Dinka, of course, are the tribe
:07:38. > :07:40.of President Salva Kiir - according to the CIA World Factbook,
:07:41. > :07:43.about 36% of South Then Nuer tribe, from which you
:07:44. > :07:50.and your husband hail, about 15%. I know the figures are disputed,
:07:51. > :07:53.that they are the most Anyway, the point is that Dinka
:07:54. > :07:56.were killed, mostly, An 11-year-old boy said, "They
:07:57. > :08:02.started to shoot, and I lay down. The rebels then burned the truck,
:08:03. > :08:08.killing dozens of occupants inside." Actually, my chairman has directed
:08:09. > :08:18.an investigation if these are people truly affiliated to us,
:08:19. > :08:23.because our people on the ground are under orders, with clear
:08:24. > :08:28.and specific instructions, that they are not fighting
:08:29. > :08:33.a war with anyone. Rather, they are resisting
:08:34. > :08:35.the onslaught from the government. So that incident that
:08:36. > :08:38.has been attributed by the Human Rights Watch,
:08:39. > :08:43.we have investigated. Our forces on that part
:08:44. > :08:48.of South Sudan have actually denied any responsibility,
:08:49. > :08:56.or being part of it. The United Nations Mission,
:08:57. > :09:03.UNMISS, in South Sudan, said in a very detailed report
:09:04. > :09:06.in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces sacked the oil town
:09:07. > :09:09.of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds of civilians,
:09:10. > :09:13.notably in the mosque, the hospital, Definitely, actually,
:09:14. > :09:21.the ICRC has done a report and we have a commission,
:09:22. > :09:23.and we have actually made the report public,
:09:24. > :09:26.and the people that were identified by the ICRC were
:09:27. > :09:28.brought to book by... The International Committee
:09:29. > :09:30.of the Red Cross, yes. I don't want to keep on doing
:09:31. > :09:37.that, but there are... You know, UNMISS, the United Nations
:09:38. > :09:39.mission, says there are reasonable grounds to believe that violations
:09:40. > :09:42.of international human rights and humanitarian law have been
:09:43. > :09:44.committed by both parties I would not deny absolutely to say
:09:45. > :09:48.nothing had happened, that I would say it is not a policy,
:09:49. > :09:52.and we are very determined to always, when something like that
:09:53. > :09:55.happens, it is addressed, it is investigated, and the culprits
:09:56. > :09:58.are actually brought to account. Yes, it is tragic, but we,
:09:59. > :10:11.as a responsible organisation, don't believe you should allow
:10:12. > :10:13.people who do that UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides
:10:14. > :10:18.to control their forces. We have, because if you go
:10:19. > :10:24.back to the incidences of the Juba crisis on July 8th,
:10:25. > :10:28.you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition
:10:29. > :10:34.conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling
:10:35. > :10:37.you that we have actually got directives and protections,
:10:38. > :10:41.and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on,
:10:42. > :10:44.whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that
:10:45. > :10:48.happened in Juba after that, well, everybody knows
:10:49. > :10:53.about it, the killings... You are talking about the active
:10:54. > :10:56.combat that broke out in July last year in the South Sudanese capital,
:10:57. > :10:58.Juba, between Salva Kiir But I have to say to you that
:10:59. > :11:04.you did not emerge without criticism Human Rights Watch again said,
:11:05. > :11:09."Regardless of the intentions of Machar's forces,
:11:10. > :11:12.of going into civilian sites, the impact of the manoeuvre
:11:13. > :11:18.was to endanger the thousands of civilians who were sheltering
:11:19. > :11:21.in these UN protection sites, and that would constitute a war
:11:22. > :11:24.crime of using human shields." And they also said, "Any Dinka
:11:25. > :11:26.civilians who remained So you raised one example
:11:27. > :11:32.of what went on there in July, and I'm saying to you,
:11:33. > :11:35.again, that the forces of the SPLM-in-Opposition had
:11:36. > :11:38.not emerged unscathed. Given that our side was very close
:11:39. > :11:46.to the UN protection site, this is where the whole battle
:11:47. > :11:50.actually took place. So we had no way of withdrawing
:11:51. > :11:53.other than through that route, But what ever your intentions were,
:11:54. > :12:00.you endangered civilians. I think it is worth explaining that,
:12:01. > :12:03.as the conflict research American Alan Boswell,
:12:04. > :12:07.based in Kenya, writing a book about South Sudan,
:12:08. > :12:10.says," I think you have to different You have a fight between
:12:11. > :12:15.President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar's coalitions over
:12:16. > :12:18.who will be king, but there are a bunch of smaller groups
:12:19. > :12:21.in South Sudan who are waging war So we accept that there are a range
:12:22. > :12:27.of different perpetrators and unnamed militia groups
:12:28. > :12:31.and so one, but the fact does remain, and I ask you again,
:12:32. > :12:34.what do you say to the criticisms that forces of the Sudan People's
:12:35. > :12:40.Liberation Movement-in-Opposition have committed some of these
:12:41. > :12:45.atrocities against civilians - rape, looting, killing, violence,
:12:46. > :12:47.that you yourself had condemned? We are saying that, as a movement,
:12:48. > :12:57.we do not condone any of this. Even when we were negotiating
:12:58. > :13:01.the agreement, the agreement and the resolution of the conflict
:13:02. > :13:04.in the Republic of South Sudan, we stood very firm,
:13:05. > :13:08.and we are on record. We fought for the inclusion
:13:09. > :13:12.of transitional justice. Actually, we say justice
:13:13. > :13:15.and accountability. And this is because we feel
:13:16. > :13:24.that we must end impunity, and we must make people who actually
:13:25. > :13:26.commit crimes against other human Including your chairman,
:13:27. > :13:33.your husband? We call for it, we call for it
:13:34. > :13:36.because we feel that it is needed. It is what will end
:13:37. > :13:39.the situation in South sedan. It will end impunity,
:13:40. > :13:42.and we say it without exception. Just on this point of genocide,
:13:43. > :13:50.which is a very, very important one, because Adama Dieng,
:13:51. > :13:53.the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide,
:13:54. > :13:56.said at the end of last year, after visiting South Sudan,
:13:57. > :13:59."I was dismayed that what I saw confirmed my concern
:14:00. > :14:01.that there is a strong risk of violence escalating along ethnic
:14:02. > :14:03.lines with the potential Our thinking is not even looming,
:14:04. > :14:20.but rather in progress. Already the Obasanjo report,
:14:21. > :14:25.which is the report ..had already established
:14:26. > :14:30.that ethnic cleansing In the span of one week,
:14:31. > :14:45.over 20,000 people were killed just because they belonged
:14:46. > :14:46.to an ethnic group. This was done by men
:14:47. > :14:49.in uniform, by government. Well, that's your accusation,
:14:50. > :14:53.and I'm sure it will be looked at. Now, when you come to this situation
:14:54. > :14:59.today, it is even worse, It is in Southern Unity,
:15:00. > :15:02.it is in Central Equatoria, We have just walked
:15:03. > :15:07.from Juba, after July. And we have seen it with our own
:15:08. > :15:10.eyes, and it is a plan President Salva is on record
:15:11. > :15:14.saying that we will hand There are criticisms
:15:15. > :15:24.made about Salva Kiir, but I have to put it to you that
:15:25. > :15:33.you are parties to this conflict, and arguably, are fuelling a lot
:15:34. > :15:36.of the violence that For example, in September last
:15:37. > :15:38.year, your movement, the SPLM-in-Opposition,
:15:39. > :15:40.declared war on what it described as the "regime" in Juba,
:15:41. > :15:43.saying it wants to wage a popular armed resistance against
:15:44. > :15:47.the authoritarian and fascist regime of President Salva Kiir in order
:15:48. > :15:49.to bring peace, freedom, democracy and the rule
:15:50. > :15:53.of law in the country. Because there is already a war
:15:54. > :16:00.going on, because already the regime The evidence to that is that,
:16:01. > :16:14.unless you are telling us I have to say to you,
:16:15. > :16:18.but you know yourself, Angelina Teney, that there
:16:19. > :16:20.was widespread condemnation The US State Department's spokesman,
:16:21. > :16:24.John Kirby, 28 September, said, "The US government strongly condemns
:16:25. > :16:27.Riek Machar's statement." A joint statement by the troika
:16:28. > :16:32.powers, the EU, Norway and the US, as well as other governments also
:16:33. > :16:35.condemned calls by the opposition leaders for a renewal
:16:36. > :16:39.of armed conflict. "Further fighting won't solve
:16:40. > :16:42.South Sudan's pressing political It will only increase the suffering
:16:43. > :16:48.of South Sudan's people", they said. I can tell you that if you saw
:16:49. > :16:53.the communique that we issued during that meeting,
:16:54. > :16:55.it talks about a political process that is needed
:16:56. > :16:57.for the resuscitation That statement of the resistance
:16:58. > :17:03.was actually the last So it was an option for the people
:17:04. > :17:09.of South Sudan to continue, to be defended from the onslaught
:17:10. > :17:13.that is going on. So our declaration is actually
:17:14. > :17:18.for a political process. Look, that is not how
:17:19. > :17:22.it is being seen at all. The East African Group of Nations,
:17:23. > :17:27.known as EGAD, has said, on the 9th of December
:17:28. > :17:31.in a communique, "We call upon the SPLM-in-Opposition
:17:32. > :17:33.to renounce violence as a means of solving the problems
:17:34. > :17:35.of South Sudan." We say, tell the government in Juba
:17:36. > :17:41.to stop the offensive, the pursuit of people based
:17:42. > :17:44.on ethnic affiliation, We say that if you hold
:17:45. > :17:51.the government to account, because the government in Juba gets
:17:52. > :17:53.encouraged with this statement, In fact, they are the one
:17:54. > :17:59.on the offensive. Whatever the opposition
:18:00. > :18:04.is doing, it's basically You're saying you're resisting,
:18:05. > :18:09.but you use violence to resist? The other options are,
:18:10. > :18:16.you go to be a refugee, you go to be internally displaced,
:18:17. > :18:22.or you go to a UN protection camp, but if you find yourself,
:18:23. > :18:25.that there is a way you can fight back, these people will fight back,
:18:26. > :18:30.especially when there is no hope now, without any peace
:18:31. > :18:36.process in place. Of course, there was a deal
:18:37. > :18:47.in August 2015, known as "the agreement" for a resolution
:18:48. > :18:49.of the conflict in South Sudan. You think that there is still a way
:18:50. > :18:52.forward by resuscitating that? But there are also reports,
:18:53. > :18:57.as we had in October, that Riek Machar announced that that
:18:58. > :19:01.agreement was dead. We feel that it needs to be renewed
:19:02. > :19:06.so that it is resuscitated, so that the people of South Sudan
:19:07. > :19:11.are given a chance again to start. Remember, we did take risks
:19:12. > :19:14.and we did go to Juba Only even based on some of the UN
:19:15. > :19:20.reports, as you know, President Salva started to introduce
:19:21. > :19:23.violence, and we had to leave Now we are still committed
:19:24. > :19:29.to a political settlement. This political settlement,
:19:30. > :19:31.we believe that this agreement has It any needs to be revived,
:19:32. > :19:38.to be reviewed, so that we can also But really, you've been
:19:39. > :19:47.marginalised, you've been pushed to the sidelines,
:19:48. > :19:52.Riek Machar, the leader We've seen Taban Deng appointed
:19:53. > :19:58.as the new Vice President. The international community have
:19:59. > :20:02.lined up behind him, and President Salva Kiir,
:20:03. > :20:04.rightly or wrongly, is being seen as somebody that the international
:20:05. > :20:08.community can deal with. Festus Mogae, former
:20:09. > :20:11.president of Botswana, who chairs the joint monitoring
:20:12. > :20:14.and evaluation commission, has said, So you've been written
:20:15. > :20:19.out of the picture. The war hasn't stopped,
:20:20. > :20:25.but the international community has lined up a between Salva Kiir
:20:26. > :20:28.and his new deputy, Taban Deng, who is from the Nuer
:20:29. > :20:30.tribe, as you are. You've just spoken
:20:31. > :20:32.about a genocide looming. If that government was doing
:20:33. > :20:39.something that was good for the country, definitely
:20:40. > :20:42.there would be no reports talking So, in a nutshell, the peace
:20:43. > :20:47.agreement has collapsed. The government continues to pursue
:20:48. > :20:54.a scorched earth policy for targeting civilians,
:20:55. > :20:56.for targeting those that So if the international community
:20:57. > :21:07.believe, and President Salva Kiir believes, that by having Taban Deng
:21:08. > :21:13.as his deputy, replacing the person appointed by the government,
:21:14. > :21:18.will bring peace, we should have In December last year,
:21:19. > :21:27.President Salva Kiir announced Again, the international community
:21:28. > :21:31.have said they will support this national dialogue in any way
:21:32. > :21:34.that they can. Why don't you join this national
:21:35. > :21:36.dialogue and renounce violence? The national dialogue can never be
:21:37. > :21:45.a replacement for a peace process A national dialogue,
:21:46. > :21:49.you need a conducive environment where people can
:21:50. > :21:51.actually freely speak. Something that is absent
:21:52. > :21:55.now in South Sudan. For you to join a national dialogue,
:21:56. > :22:00.you first of all must create the environment whereby you have
:22:01. > :22:06.that space for everybody to be able Let's create that space
:22:07. > :22:13.by resuscitating the agreement, and once the agreement
:22:14. > :22:14.is resuscitated, we will have the environment,
:22:15. > :22:16.and the agreement now provides How can you do that when Riek Machar
:22:17. > :22:21.is in South Africa. Is he under house
:22:22. > :22:25.arrest in South Africa? The South Africans themselves have
:22:26. > :22:30.answered and said he's So why isn't he going around
:22:31. > :22:33.lobbying governments, Because I'm a member
:22:34. > :22:37.of the movement. Remember, I negotiated
:22:38. > :22:39.our security... Is he going to go back
:22:40. > :22:45.to South Sudan, not to Juba... Does he still think
:22:46. > :22:58.he's Vice President? He's not Vice President,
:22:59. > :22:59.because there's no transitional government of national
:23:00. > :23:02.unity in place. The government in
:23:03. > :23:03.Juba is the regime. Since the agreement has collapsed,
:23:04. > :23:06.that leaves you with a regime Finally, in the last few seconds,
:23:07. > :23:14.a senior African statesman, who is very aware of what is going
:23:15. > :23:18.on in South Sudan, has told me that South Sudan will know no peace
:23:19. > :23:21.until both Salva Kiir Because we, as in opposition,
:23:22. > :23:34.offer an alternative. We have a programme in place
:23:35. > :23:37.that we believe we actually can transform that country,
:23:38. > :23:41.and move it to the next level. We know that President Salva Kiir
:23:42. > :23:44.cannot do that, because he has been We even introduced, before
:23:45. > :23:54.the outbreak of the 2013 crisis, a process of national reconciliation
:23:55. > :24:01.that would allow the South Sudanese