0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13My guest is American journalist Theo Padnos.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17From October 2012 to August 2014 he was held hostage
0:00:17 > 0:00:22in Syria by the Nusra Front, which is allied to al-Qaeda.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24He was beaten, abused, not knowing from day-to-day
0:00:24 > 0:00:27if he would be shot or spared by his captors.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30But was he the victim of his own actions?
0:00:30 > 0:00:33He says the most bitter moment of his captivity was the realisation
0:00:33 > 0:00:35that it was he himself who was mostly responsible
0:00:35 > 0:00:40for his ordeal.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45Theo Padnos, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Theo Padnos, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10Thanks very much for having me.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Why did you decide to go to Syria in 2012 to report
0:01:13 > 0:01:14on the conflict there?
0:01:14 > 0:01:17You know, it was a very dangerous place, it still is.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19It was certainly dangerous at the time, but I mean,
0:01:19 > 0:01:23I felt that I could avoid the worst of the dangers.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26I felt the real danger to me at the time,
0:01:26 > 0:01:29I thought, was the regime.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35I thought they were against Western reporters coming in.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38I didn't have a visa for journalists, and I felt
0:01:38 > 0:01:40that they were going to come and arrest me.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42I felt that the resistance, they were going to say,
0:01:42 > 0:01:45the West is generally on our side, you're a Westerner,
0:01:45 > 0:01:46so we'll show you around.
0:01:46 > 0:01:53I anticipated a friendly and heartfelt reception from the rebels.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Right, so you went to Antakya in Turkey, on the border with Syria.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00You met three Syrians there who told you they were fixers for the media
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and that they could help you get into Syria, and indeed
0:02:02 > 0:02:04you went in with them.
0:02:04 > 0:02:05Yes.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08What did you find convincing about them, what did they say to you?
0:02:08 > 0:02:11You know, I was so in my own little world at the time, that
0:02:11 > 0:02:15I wasn't even interested in their credentials.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19I just thought, these are people that are...
0:02:19 > 0:02:22I can't trust any of them is what I thought.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27So I said why not trust you guys, let's go.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32Also, they offered me a trip into Syria for $0.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35I was so poor at the time, I was, like $0, that's my price,
0:02:35 > 0:02:36I'll go with you guys.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38So you went in with them.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40Shortly after arriving in Syria they said to you,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42we are from al-Qaeda or the Nusra Front...
0:02:42 > 0:02:45No, no, shortly after arriving in Syria, firstly I slept one night
0:02:45 > 0:02:48in the same abandoned house as them and then the next morning we got
0:02:48 > 0:02:50up, went to Binnish, which is where James Foley
0:02:50 > 0:02:52and John Cantlie were kidnapped a month later.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55It was a very dangerous little town.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57It was a very dangerous little town.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59We drove through this town, we had coffee, we walked
0:02:59 > 0:03:02through the streets a little bit and then we went to another house.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04They brought out some cables, they started kicking me,
0:03:05 > 0:03:05they were filming this.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10Whack, whack, whack.
0:03:10 > 0:03:11So they were militants of some kind?
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Well, they were violent people, anyway.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19They brought out the handcuffs, they tied up my legs and they said,
0:03:19 > 0:03:20you are a prisoner.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22We are from the al-Qaeda organisation, they said,
0:03:22 > 0:03:23and they said, didn't you know?
0:03:23 > 0:03:29I said no.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31A little more violence and then they go, OK,
0:03:31 > 0:03:32now we can have lunch.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35So they told you they were from al-Qaeda, but you managed to escape?
0:03:35 > 0:03:39That night I slipped my hands out of the handcuffs they had put me in.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41I was sleeping next to one of the guys,
0:03:41 > 0:03:47the chief, he was asleep.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50I pulled my hands out of the handcuffs, ran away,
0:03:50 > 0:03:52and then I was in deep trouble when they caught me,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56because they said he is so clever, he lulled us to sleep and then
0:03:56 > 0:03:59he undid the handcuffs magically with his CIA training
0:03:59 > 0:04:01and now we really have to show him who's boss.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03So they handed you over to Nusra Front, Jabhat
0:04:03 > 0:04:04al-Nusra, jihadists?
0:04:04 > 0:04:06Men who were violent and extreme.
0:04:06 > 0:04:12But tou believe they were from Nusra Front?
0:04:12 > 0:04:18Eventually ended up in hands of the Nusra.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20At the time there was just
0:04:20 > 0:04:21a consortium of violent men.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23But you then were held in captivity for nearly
0:04:23 > 0:04:25two years and you were, obviously, treated very,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28very badly by these captors, abused, beaten and all the rest of it.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Who were these people who were holding you,
0:04:30 > 0:04:31what nationalities were they?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33At first it was really mostly people from Aleppo.
0:04:33 > 0:04:39Syrians from Aleppo, with an Iraqi in charge.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42But later on in came Canadians, I met some Moroccan and German
0:04:42 > 0:04:45people, I met some Canadians, I met an Australian guy.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48These were converts, were they?
0:04:48 > 0:04:54I didn't ask them how they came to Islam.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57But when you say they were Germans and so on, were they Germans
0:04:57 > 0:04:59who were of Arab origin, for instance?
0:04:59 > 0:05:01Yes, he was a Moroccan guy.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03He probably wasn't a convert, but a born-again, you could say.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06These were people that had recently discovered an enthusiasm for Islam,
0:05:06 > 0:05:15it doesn't mean they are converts.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17And you say CIA, CIA, because I have to say
0:05:17 > 0:05:18you speak fluent Arabic
0:05:18 > 0:05:21and they thought one of the reasons why your Arabic were so good
0:05:21 > 0:05:23was you had been trained by the CIA?
0:05:23 > 0:05:24Yeah.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27The judge, when I first escaped they brought me to Islamic court.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29The Islamic court judge began asking me questions
0:05:29 > 0:05:30about my education in Islam.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32I told them I had been in Yemen.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34What were you doing in Yemen, where did you study
0:05:34 > 0:05:36in Yemen, he asked me?
0:05:36 > 0:05:38In order to fight the jihad, can anybody fight the jihad?
0:05:38 > 0:05:40I said no, you need to special education
0:05:40 > 0:05:43in Islam to fight the jihad.
0:05:43 > 0:05:44He goes, you know too much.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49This is very good.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51He said, you're no journalist, CIA.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53I was trying to impress him with my knowledge,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55because he held my life in his hands, but by impressing
0:05:55 > 0:05:57him with my knowledge, I basically certified myself,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59in his eyes, as a CIA agent.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01So that was the wrong thing to do.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05If you ever get caught by these people, do not go on about how much
0:06:05 > 0:06:07about Islam you know, go on about how little you know.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09And then they go, oh good, you're a journalist.
0:06:09 > 0:06:10Right.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12Thanks for the advice, by the way.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15I should say you were kept in captivity from January 2013
0:06:15 > 0:06:17with the US photojournalist Matt Schrier, and you shared a cell
0:06:17 > 0:06:20together, indeed you even shared a bed for six or seven months.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22What kind of treatment did you both receive?
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Were you treated worse than he was, because you spoke fluent Arabic
0:06:25 > 0:06:33and they thought you were CIA?
0:06:33 > 0:06:39And because he had a card when he was caught that
0:06:39 > 0:06:40I had no such card.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42They go, he's the journalist and he's the CIA guy.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44So what kind of things happened to you?
0:06:44 > 0:06:46I mean, they have various torture methods.
0:06:46 > 0:06:47Some of these things...
0:06:47 > 0:06:49I was in a blindfold, so I could hear the electricity
0:06:49 > 0:06:53and I could obviously feel it, but I didn't know what kind of
0:06:53 > 0:06:55electricity they were administering to my body, you know?
0:06:55 > 0:06:56Mostly it's just hitting.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58They immobilise you and they handcuff you and they bring
0:06:58 > 0:07:01you into a very dark space, it's late at night and the elders
0:07:01 > 0:07:04of the group are standing around and the young people are actually
0:07:04 > 0:07:07inflicting the pain.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10They do this for days and days and days, you don't know
0:07:10 > 0:07:14when it's going to stop.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16You say young people inflicting the pain,
0:07:16 > 0:07:17because were children involved?
0:07:17 > 0:07:18Yeah.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21The purpose of this thing is really, I felt, in the end looking back
0:07:21 > 0:07:26on it, I think that the elders of the group are taking the young
0:07:26 > 0:07:29people and the outsiders and they are terrifying these young
0:07:29 > 0:07:34people and they are bringing them...
0:07:34 > 0:07:37They are changing the psychology of these people, by forcing them
0:07:37 > 0:07:40to participate in this violent thing that they really don't want to do.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42But these kids learn how to do it eventually.
0:07:42 > 0:07:48And by learning this violence, it changes their psychology over time.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50I think that's a part of the point.
0:07:50 > 0:07:51Were you blindfolded so you couldn't tell
0:07:51 > 0:07:54you were being tortured by children, or were you fully aware
0:07:54 > 0:07:56there were children present?
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Sometimes they said, we want to take this
0:07:58 > 0:08:00blindfold off of you, look at us.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02You see this, you see what's happening?
0:08:02 > 0:08:03And how old were these kids?
0:08:03 > 0:08:05Some of these kids were ten, 12, 15.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09They have a lot of kids they have to train.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11This is the official torture sessions, but those kids are violent
0:08:11 > 0:08:16with you when it's not official.
0:08:16 > 0:08:21They have licence to do this to you.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Once they bring you into their dark space with the chains,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26whips and cables, then the next time they're giving you food,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28they do the same thing, it's just not part of
0:08:28 > 0:08:30the official Jabhat al-Nusra programme.
0:08:30 > 0:08:31Were they as bad as the adults?
0:08:31 > 0:08:32They're worse.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I was more afraid of the kids than I was of the adults.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37They're unpredictable, and they're doing it for fun
0:08:37 > 0:08:38sometimes, the kids are.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40You were electrocuted with cattle prods?
0:08:40 > 0:08:41Sometimes with cattle prods.
0:08:41 > 0:08:46Listen, by the way, I had it much better than the Syrians did.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Compared to what, compared to the pain and suffering
0:08:48 > 0:08:53that they inflict on their fellow Syrians, I had it easy.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56But Matt Schrier converted to Islam because he thought it might
0:08:56 > 0:09:00get him better treatment.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03Here you are, fluent Arabic speaker, able to recite parts of the Koran.
0:09:03 > 0:09:13Why didn't you do the same?
0:09:16 > 0:09:17I wanted...
0:09:17 > 0:09:21I felt that by converting to Islam they were going to make me
0:09:21 > 0:09:24follow all these rules they know much better than I do and then
0:09:24 > 0:09:27they were going to catch me in a mistake and they were going
0:09:27 > 0:09:29to make me suffer for making a mistake.
0:09:29 > 0:09:30Lying about my feelings on Islam.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33So mI thought it was more safe for me to say I'm doing
0:09:33 > 0:09:36the Christian rules, I know them better than you guys,
0:09:36 > 0:09:37and God made me a Christian.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38He can't be wrong.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40They would say no, God made you a Muslim,
0:09:40 > 0:09:43you converted to Christianity when you were a little baby.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45So we would have these arguments about when did I convert.
0:09:45 > 0:09:50"I didn't."
0:09:50 > 0:09:51They said, "Yes, you did."
0:09:51 > 0:09:53At that point I was safe.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56I would have converted to Islam if I had a gun to my head,
0:09:56 > 0:10:00but I wanted to use this conversion as the trump card, as the last card
0:10:00 > 0:10:03that I had in my hand to save my life, and I would have
0:10:03 > 0:10:05used it, I have no objection to it.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08You had no idea whether you were going to live from day to day.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12Of course not, no prisoner does, in Jabhat al-Nusra land or Isis land.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15They want you to feel as though your life is in their hands,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17and if you live, it's because they're giving
0:10:17 > 0:10:18you back your life.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21So when you come back to life, you're coming back, you have
0:10:21 > 0:10:23them to thank for it, and they want you to
0:10:23 > 0:10:24come back as they are.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26And a lot of prisoners do, you know?
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Their purpose is to affect a psychological change
0:10:28 > 0:10:29in the people that they control.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31It's not just the prisoners...
0:10:31 > 0:10:32Did it have that impact on you?
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Yeah, I think, yeah, in some ways.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38I was so terrified of them.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41You're like this creature that has absolutely no power in the universe
0:10:41 > 0:10:43and they have everything, and when they give you an olive
0:10:43 > 0:10:49you are on your knees in gratitude toward them.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53So they want you in that relation to them, and I was that way,
0:10:53 > 0:10:54I was grateful to them.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57And by the way, they could have killed me at any point,
0:10:57 > 0:10:58and so I feel that they...
0:10:58 > 0:11:00I'm grateful to them for sparing my life.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02You devised an escape plan with Matt.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Yes.
0:11:05 > 0:11:15July 2013, and he managed to escape through a small window in your cell.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19He got through - you didn't.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21What happened when he got through and was looking up at you,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24did he try to help you to get out, what happened?
0:11:24 > 0:11:25No, no.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26He didn't try to help you?
0:11:26 > 0:11:30No, I think he had a moment of war panic, which anybody could have.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32We were in a combat zone, snipers all over the place,
0:11:32 > 0:11:34explosions, rockets, and he was looking for freedom.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37The moment he had an instant of freedom, he was gone.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39So he wasn't interested in rescuing me.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41And perhaps I wouldn't have been interested in rescuing him,
0:11:41 > 0:11:43if I had been in his place.
0:11:43 > 0:11:44But he said, "I'll help you".
0:11:44 > 0:11:45That was our plan.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49We'd been working on this thing for days and days and days.
0:11:49 > 0:11:54And when the moment came to help me, he didn't do it.
0:11:54 > 0:11:59So you could blame him for this -
0:11:59 > 0:12:01So you could blame him for this -
0:12:01 > 0:12:03personally, I don't blame him for this.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05Have you spoken to him since your release?
0:12:05 > 0:12:07No, I'm not interested in speaking with him.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09So you did finally, of course, after a couple of various mishaps,
0:12:09 > 0:12:12you tried to escape again when you saw somebody on a motorbike
0:12:12 > 0:12:15and you asked to be taken to hospital and then found yourself
0:12:15 > 0:12:19back in the hands of your captors, that was in the summer of 2014.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21Then eventually, August 2014, you were taken to a UN compound.
0:12:21 > 0:12:22Yes.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25And you are handed over to an Indian doctor who examined you very,
0:12:25 > 0:12:27very carefully and very politely and gently.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30You said that really moved you, and touched your heart.
0:12:30 > 0:12:36It still does to think about it.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38The first six months, every time I met somebody
0:12:38 > 0:12:41who was kind to me I wanted cry and I did cry.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43You're so isolated from people who are interested in your well-being,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46you're so convinced when you're in the custody of these people that
0:12:46 > 0:12:49you are filth and disgusting and like a germ that should be
0:12:49 > 0:12:50eradicated from the planet.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52Finally somebody is gentle and gracious to you,
0:12:52 > 0:12:53it breaks your heart.
0:12:53 > 0:12:54That's what happened to me.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56I'm still grateful to the people that were courageous
0:12:56 > 0:12:57and brave with me.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02It meant a lot.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05Yet you've written, when you look back on your captivity,
0:13:05 > 0:13:15almost two years, 22 months in Syria, you said, "The bitterest
0:13:17 > 0:13:21moment of the early weeks of my captivity came when I
0:13:21 > 0:13:23thought about who was most responsible for my kidnapping - me".
0:13:23 > 0:13:24That's right.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28We have this gorgeous gift in life that is our freedom and our capacity
0:13:28 > 0:13:31to wander the earth, and I threw it away as if it was
0:13:31 > 0:13:32like a piece of dirty Kleenex.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33I just didn't care.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35By trusting those three Syrian fixers?
0:13:35 > 0:13:36By walking into this incredibly dangerous place,
0:13:36 > 0:13:40with people I didn't know, having done no research on them
0:13:40 > 0:13:41and having an inadequate understanding of the religious
0:13:41 > 0:13:45passions that were circulating on the ground.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47Do you think you were being a bit naive?
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Of course.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53It's surprising for somebody who has a PhD
0:13:53 > 0:13:58In comparative literature, fluent Arabic speaker,
0:13:58 > 0:14:00knows the Arab world, lived in it...
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Should you not have known better?
0:14:02 > 0:14:03I certainly should have, however...
0:14:03 > 0:14:05I know the area, I had been riding my bicycle
0:14:05 > 0:14:06there before the war.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10I knew the territory, I knew the people, and I was in over
0:14:10 > 0:14:12my head the instant I walked across that border.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15So I think anybody who knows less than I am, is more lost.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17And I think many, many of the reporters
0:14:17 > 0:14:19are deep in over their head and they don't know it.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21But many news agencies have pulled out their staff,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23journalists, because Syria, since the revolution there,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25is the most dangerous place for journalists.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29More than 100 have been killed there so far.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32Do you feel then that it falls to the freelance journalists such
0:14:32 > 0:14:34as yourself to report on the conflict?
0:14:34 > 0:14:35I hope it doesn't.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Because you take these risks?
0:14:36 > 0:14:37I hope it doesn't.
0:14:37 > 0:14:38But it did in your case?
0:14:38 > 0:14:43It did in my case, and certainly freelance journalists are,
0:14:43 > 0:14:44you can say they're more reckless.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47I personally didn't think of myself as reckless at the time.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51I thought, I know the area, I know the people and I wish to stay
0:14:51 > 0:14:53away from the violence of the whole thing.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55I was going to write about the religious tensions
0:14:55 > 0:14:57and I wanted to interview people distant from the actual clashes.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01So I wasn't interested in the bang, bang, bang of the whole thing,
0:15:01 > 0:15:03I was interested in the deeper, underlying causes of this war
0:15:03 > 0:15:08which don't require you to be in the dangerous places.
0:15:08 > 0:15:15Is that what motivated you to go into Syria?
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I have to say, you were struggling journalist at the time, trying
0:15:18 > 0:15:20desperately to get your stories placed as a freelance journalist
0:15:20 > 0:15:21and not having much success.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Did you think, I can go in, use my language skills,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I want to make a name for myself, get into Syria, explain
0:15:27 > 0:15:28what's going on there?
0:15:28 > 0:15:31I did think that and I do think that, I continue to think that.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35I did think that and I do think that, I continue to think that.
0:15:35 > 0:15:36But I don't think that it's appropriate for anybody
0:15:36 > 0:15:40to throw your life away, in order to write a thousand word
0:15:40 > 0:15:41piece or get a nice photograph.
0:15:41 > 0:15:48This is crazy, it's lunatic thinking.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50What was it that made you want to do that?
0:15:50 > 0:15:51Was it recognition you wanted?
0:15:51 > 0:15:52I didn't realise...
0:15:52 > 0:15:53Did you want recognition?
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Did you want a greater understanding of Arabs and Islam?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59Yes, certainly I did want that and I continue to want that,
0:15:59 > 0:16:02but I did not believe I was putting my life at risk.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03I thought, I'll stay away.
0:16:03 > 0:16:04Other journalists are crazy.
0:16:04 > 0:16:10They go and film guys shooting each other and they put on the flak
0:16:10 > 0:16:13jackets and helmets and all of this - I don't do this.
0:16:13 > 0:16:14I sit quietly and have tea with somebody.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17I am not and have never been a combat journalist,
0:16:17 > 0:16:18it's not my thing.
0:16:18 > 0:16:25I'm trying to understand the deeper causes of this conflict.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27Because the chief of your captors talked to you and said,
0:16:27 > 0:16:35we want you to explain al-Qaeda to the world.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Yes, yes.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40Yes, yes. I'm happy to do that.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42I continue to want to do this.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44It's very important,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47we need to understand the psychology of the people in charge of these
0:16:47 > 0:16:49Islamic states that are emerging in Syria now.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52We need to understand the culture on the ground,
0:16:52 > 0:16:53how they control people, how people stay, why
0:16:53 > 0:16:55they stay in this thing.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57In fact, there's joy and love in all of these places.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00We need to understand how, what makes people stay and love it
0:17:00 > 0:17:03and why they're willing to give up their lives for these people.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Greater understanding, or are you asking for
0:17:05 > 0:17:06sympathy, even, or empathy?
0:17:06 > 0:17:08Because some of the things you've said do perhaps
0:17:08 > 0:17:09suggest you might be...
0:17:09 > 0:17:11When you were moved one prison outside Aleppo,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13you said you wanted to make friends with your guards.
0:17:13 > 0:17:19To make friends with the people holding you?
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Well, one wishes to make friends with them because
0:17:21 > 0:17:22they're giving you food.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25If they don't like you, if they consider you an enemy,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27you will not eat, you will not go to the bathroom.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29You need to be friendly with these people.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31More generally, I'm interested in understanding the reality
0:17:31 > 0:17:39behind the al-Qaeda talk.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41Because every last person in al-Qaeda and Isis, and I lived
0:17:41 > 0:17:44with them for months, I know them well enough to know
0:17:44 > 0:17:47they all have a line of talk, and behind that is a psychology.
0:17:47 > 0:17:48It's a vulnerability to certain manipulators,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50it's a love for Islam.
0:17:50 > 0:17:52There's a whole conglomeration of factors that we need
0:17:52 > 0:17:54to understand more carefully, and by talking to them
0:17:54 > 0:17:56carefully, over time, you understand how this al-Qaeda
0:17:56 > 0:17:57organisation is constituted.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00But that's quite different from some of the things you've said.
0:18:00 > 0:18:10For instance, in the documentary that's been made about your
0:18:12 > 0:18:15experience - Theo Who Lived, it's called - you've said
0:18:15 > 0:18:17about the jihadists, "They are just young men.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19There are tonnes of food and guns and people to torture.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21I mean, most of them are having fun.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23There's a lot of fun in the jihad.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25It's very underrated in the West."
0:18:25 > 0:18:26Well, it's quite true.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30Can I just say, "it's fun", "there's a lot of fun in the jihad"?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32The jihadists kill their fellow human beings.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34They treat them badly, as they treated you badly.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35Don't you regret that kind of statement?
0:18:35 > 0:18:38I don't regret it because I think it's true.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Listen, there are young men that are having the most profound
0:18:40 > 0:18:42and meaningful experiences of their lives in killing people.
0:18:42 > 0:18:47This is a very dangerous thing.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49We're educating people, or by leaving these vast areas
0:18:49 > 0:18:51of Syria and Iraq to the control of religious fanatics,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54we're allowing an entire generation of young people to educate
0:18:54 > 0:18:55themselves into killing and into merciless torture.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58We don't want this, but they are deriving a kind
0:18:58 > 0:19:08of pleasure from it.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16But I put it again to you that it sounds like...
0:19:16 > 0:19:18An effort to understand what makes them tick is one thing,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21but another occasion reported in the Los Angeles Times October
0:19:21 > 0:19:312016, about one militant with a shattered, bleeding leg
0:19:34 > 0:19:37brought into your cell, pleaded with you to rub his leg and sing
0:19:37 > 0:19:38the Eagles' song Desperado.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41You said, "I would sing to him and at those moments he was not
0:19:41 > 0:19:44a crazy suicidal jihadist, he was just a normal guy
0:19:44 > 0:19:46who loved attention and loved being treated affectionately".
0:19:46 > 0:19:48You did a bit more than you really needed to.
0:19:48 > 0:19:49Well, in this instance, I mean...
0:19:49 > 0:19:53I had a man who was very violent in the cell with me and I needed
0:19:53 > 0:19:55to just calm this person down.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56I was afraid of him,
0:19:56 > 0:19:57everybody was terrified of this guy.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00We were in a cell with one very hard-core Jabhat al-Nusra guy
0:20:00 > 0:20:02that they themselves, the Jabhat al-Nusra
0:20:02 > 0:20:03commander, had shot.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05They shot him and threw him in the cell with us.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Now, he was furious, and he was making threats to us
0:20:08 > 0:20:11and we were frightened of him and maybe he was frightened of us.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Anyway, we needed to calm this guy down.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I did whatever I could to calm him down.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18But you appreciate that some of these comments you've made,
0:20:18 > 0:20:19statements you've made, could perhaps, you know,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22blur the line between understanding and perhaps asking for sympathy.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24I'll give you just one more example -
0:20:24 > 0:20:26you said, talking about your captors, "I think we should send
0:20:26 > 0:20:29aid, we should send them chocolates and blankets, and I think we have
0:20:29 > 0:20:30to be nicer to them."
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Well, I do believe that, I think that the long-term solution...
0:20:33 > 0:20:35What, send them chocolates and blankets?
0:20:35 > 0:20:37The long-term solution for us and Islamic fanaticism in Syria
0:20:37 > 0:20:39and Iraq is to negotiate with these guys.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41We can't kill them all, there's too many of them.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45And in order to negotiate we need to be, we need to give them
0:20:45 > 0:20:46stuff that they want.
0:20:46 > 0:20:54We can't give them stuff that they can sell,
0:20:54 > 0:20:56We can't give them stuff that they can sell,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59because they'll use that, they'll use the cash to buy guns.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01But if we give them oranges, they've basically got to eat them.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03If we give them chocolate...
0:21:03 > 0:21:05We understand the argument, Theo, that if you try to target
0:21:05 > 0:21:08to jihadists on the ground and there are civilian deaths,
0:21:08 > 0:21:10there's collateral damage, that's going to harden a lot
0:21:10 > 0:21:12of people's opinions and maybe turned against the West.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14of people's opinions and maybe turn them against the West.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17But to actually say blanket them with love and send them chocolates
0:21:17 > 0:21:19is just a step too far -
0:21:19 > 0:21:21perhaps your statements should be a bit more measured?
0:21:21 > 0:21:23I am not representing US policy, by the way.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25Nobody's going to abide by my policy advice.
0:21:25 > 0:21:26Basically, I'm speaking metaphorically, OK?
0:21:26 > 0:21:28I'm not really advocating that we send them love.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31I'm advocating that we negotiate with these people because we can't
0:21:31 > 0:21:33kill them all, there's too many of them.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35We have to establish ourselves as reasonable people
0:21:35 > 0:21:38with whom they can negotiate, and we have to lull them
0:21:38 > 0:21:40into a peaceful attitude, otherwise they will kill us
0:21:40 > 0:21:43in the cafes in Paris, as they have already been doing.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48They have an infinite supply of young people that
0:21:48 > 0:21:52are ready to throw their lives into the breach for them.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54We don't want to live with the cafes being shot up,
0:21:54 > 0:21:55the subways being bombed...
0:21:55 > 0:21:57So you think you can negotiate?
0:21:57 > 0:21:58You're saying negotiate with al-Qaeda, with
0:21:58 > 0:22:03so-called Islamic State?
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Of course.
0:22:06 > 0:22:07With Isis as well.
0:22:07 > 0:22:08And with Jabhat al-Nusra?
0:22:08 > 0:22:09Of course, there's no choice.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11I negotiated with these people every day for every little
0:22:11 > 0:22:12thing for two years.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15I needed to go to the bathroom, so you negotiate that.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18I needed to eat, you negotiate.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Was it that that released you, or was it...
0:22:20 > 0:22:21We understand
0:22:21 > 0:22:23the Qataris, Qatar reportedly facilitated your release.
0:22:23 > 0:22:24They were negotiating, yes.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26Wasn't it that likely, that was responsible
0:22:26 > 0:22:35for your being released, rather than these tactics?
0:22:35 > 0:22:36It's not likely, it's a certainty.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39So all these tactics and strategies of yours and negotiating
0:22:39 > 0:22:40with them and so on...
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Allows you to get something that you want from them.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46Now, I didn't have the cash to get myself out, but I'm not saying that
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Qatar had the cash either, but I needed certain things
0:22:48 > 0:22:51from Jabhat al-Nusra and they gave it to me,
0:22:51 > 0:22:52because I learned how to talk to them.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Vanity Fair in October 2016 described you as an out of luck,
0:22:55 > 0:22:56out of money freelance journalist.
0:22:56 > 0:22:57Now you're famous...
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Am I, really?
0:22:59 > 0:23:00You'd struggled to make a name here.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02There's a documentary made about you, being interviewed
0:23:02 > 0:23:05on television and so on.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08You kind of succeeded - not perhaps in the way that
0:23:08 > 0:23:11you wanted to or the reasons you might have wanted to.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13I wouldn't call this success...
0:23:13 > 0:23:16But your name is out there, people know who you are now.
0:23:16 > 0:23:17Do they?
0:23:17 > 0:23:18That's good, I hope so.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21The reason why I hope so is that will enable me to publish articles
0:23:21 > 0:23:24and speak on television about a peaceful and wise solution
0:23:24 > 0:23:30for the violence in Syria.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33That's my goal, is to help the West and help the world help Syria.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37That's my goal, and to the extent that I can do that, I'm happy.
0:23:37 > 0:23:39Theo Padnos, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40Thank you.
0:23:40 > 0:23:50Thank you.
0:24:08 > 0:24:09Good