:00:00. > :00:00.ruling CDU party. Does the arrival of Donald Trump plus breaks it spell
:00:00. > :00:23.the start of a new world order and mark a shift in power away from the
:00:24. > :00:30.West? Minister Ursula von der Leyen, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. The
:00:31. > :00:36.present -- the president of Germany has said, with the inauguration of a
:00:37. > :00:40.new US President, we face challenges to the international order and to
:00:41. > :00:44.transatlantic relations. Germany and Europe can no longer live as usual
:00:45. > :00:49.on the trans- Atlantic partnership, can they? I am deeply convinced that
:00:50. > :00:53.they can rely on the transatlantic partnership because there is a
:00:54. > :00:59.strong foundation, the transatlantic partnership, almost 70 years, there
:01:00. > :01:07.is a huge amount of common experience, of trust and confidence
:01:08. > :01:11.in each other and we have this transatlantic partnership because we
:01:12. > :01:15.share a common values. But here is your president who is stepping down
:01:16. > :01:19.in March after five years and he is going through this period of
:01:20. > :01:25.reflection and he is seeing it has challenges. Are you saying that his
:01:26. > :01:30.concerns are not valid? Eddie says it is challenging, I would applaud.
:01:31. > :01:35.What are the challenges? We have to major challenges. The first is
:01:36. > :01:41.terror on the causes of terror. The crisis in the Middle East. The
:01:42. > :01:47.second one is cyberspace manipulation. We will talk about
:01:48. > :01:51.those but I have to put it to use that those challenges existed under
:01:52. > :01:56.Barack Obama but he says under the inauguration of a new US president,
:01:57. > :02:00.there are challenges to the transatlantic partnership which is a
:02:01. > :02:03.different point. If you are not talking about the threats we are
:02:04. > :02:11.facing together, let us talk about a new administration. I have been in
:02:12. > :02:15.Davos and talking at the World Economic Forum to many Republican --
:02:16. > :02:20.Republican Congressmen and Senators and it's interesting to listen to
:02:21. > :02:25.them interpret what at that time, President elect, now President Trump
:02:26. > :02:29.said, ought we did and what I sensed is there is a typical reaction, and
:02:30. > :02:34.I am familiar with that, when you come into office and there is a
:02:35. > :02:40.change of government and policies, there is a tendency to say what has
:02:41. > :02:44.been is wrong and not enough and now we will come and change everything.
:02:45. > :02:50.We will listen to that. I would say the transatlantic partnership, yes,
:02:51. > :02:54.there is a necessity of modernisation but it does not start
:02:55. > :03:01.today but it has already started. We will come to later when a moment but
:03:02. > :03:05.to continue this, President Xi Jinping of China said the world is
:03:06. > :03:10.on the verge of radical change. In ten years, we can expect a new world
:03:11. > :03:14.order. There will be an alliance between China and Russia. Basically,
:03:15. > :03:25.I am putting it to you that the West is in decline. The West in a
:03:26. > :03:30.strategic way, needs strong alliances. He is talking to Russia
:03:31. > :03:35.but I also had the chance to listen to this talk, the speech he gave and
:03:36. > :03:40.it was interesting, there was a strong speech for free trade, or
:03:41. > :03:49.cooperation. Or an inclusive global management of problems and fairness
:03:50. > :03:54.within the economic systems. These were new tones. Power tones. He was
:03:55. > :03:58.giving our speech. You are implying... He was giving our
:03:59. > :04:05.speech. EC claiming the mantle of leader of the world? Filling the
:04:06. > :04:11.vacuum? I would say that, I welcome this attitude, welcome to the club
:04:12. > :04:17.and of course, this openness, this external openness has to be a code
:04:18. > :04:22.and the most important thing is, I am very glad to listen to these
:04:23. > :04:27.worlds but -- words but deeds have to follow. So China and Russia being
:04:28. > :04:32.the new superpowers in a decade 's time, you refute that? Definitely.
:04:33. > :04:37.There is the transatlantic element. I put it to you that the West is in
:04:38. > :04:43.decline. It is look at your in particular. US -- Europe is in
:04:44. > :04:46.crisis post Brexit, it really is. A couple of thoughts. The president of
:04:47. > :04:51.Germany, the Joachim Gauck, a uniting force of the EU has declined
:04:52. > :04:57.significantly. President Tom set up to Brexit, countries can follow the
:04:58. > :05:00.UK's example and President Xi Jinping of China, the EU was
:05:01. > :05:08.gradually falling apart. Three powerful voices, not much confidence
:05:09. > :05:13.in your. Warning voices? Different points of view? Yes, the question
:05:14. > :05:18.that is in front of us, do we want this European Union and do we want a
:05:19. > :05:22.European family or can live without it? Am strongly in favour of a
:05:23. > :05:29.European Union I think our future and the tackling, the problem we are
:05:30. > :05:33.facing, when we am in the European Union, I do not think a single
:05:34. > :05:39.country of the European Union, but even a large country like Germany,
:05:40. > :05:45.can handle the problems as well as the European Union can do it. A
:05:46. > :05:49.member of the family, you said the family of the European Union, a key
:05:50. > :05:53.member, Britain, has decided to go it alone. Theresa May said, we are
:05:54. > :05:58.not turning our backs on your up but we want to claim our place as our
:05:59. > :06:01.history has always given us, in the world. Looking beyond Europe to
:06:02. > :06:12.partners elsewhere. You are faced with this issue but you cannot make
:06:13. > :06:19.makes it easy for Britain because as ' one -- Guy van Hofstadt, the key
:06:20. > :06:22.negotiator, said, Britain will never accept the situation. You've got to
:06:23. > :06:30.make it tough for Britain, haven't you? I think we should diminish the
:06:31. > :06:35.tone that is always pushing towards make it tough, make it hard. All
:06:36. > :06:45.these words. They do not make it easy. It will not make it hard to
:06:46. > :06:50.disentangle. We should keep in mind that we are on the same side of the
:06:51. > :07:01.front because we share many values together. We face many common
:07:02. > :07:10.threats. Europe is -- if we find a smart and convenient way to organise
:07:11. > :07:13.our future relation,, it is not in the European British interest that
:07:14. > :07:18.one of the other is not doing well. But Theresa May said in her speech
:07:19. > :07:22.on January 16, the UK would not accept a punitive approach to
:07:23. > :07:26.Brexit, adding that no deal is better than a bad deal for Britain.
:07:27. > :07:35.What are you going to do? Give Britain a good deal but that goes
:07:36. > :07:41.against what Guy Verhofstadt said, if you make life too rosy, others
:07:42. > :07:46.will follow. Well, yes, and the most important thing is, sit down and
:07:47. > :07:51.start to negotiate. The concrete. All these extreme voices, be
:07:52. > :07:55.concrete and then you see step-by-step, what is the common
:07:56. > :08:01.interest? What is the large portion that we share and do good together
:08:02. > :08:07.in a world that is larger than only Britain and the European Union. Are
:08:08. > :08:11.you worried, minister, about Britain 's reaction? The Chancellor of the
:08:12. > :08:14.Exchequer, Philip Hammond, told a German newspaper that Britain would
:08:15. > :08:19.not lie down and accept economic damage incurred by a harsh deal. He
:08:20. > :08:23.said the UK would change its economic and social model, have a
:08:24. > :08:27.low corporate tax structure, he's got a strong finance sector, so
:08:28. > :08:33.Britain could become this tax haven in the heart of Europe. You would be
:08:34. > :08:42.very worried about that? These are things to sort out. I don't think it
:08:43. > :08:47.is smart to go into attack stumping race and we have heard other voices
:08:48. > :08:54.and the whole picture will not be complete if we do not look at the
:08:55. > :08:59.final contract we have together. I don't think it is smart just to pick
:09:00. > :09:03.the one or the other topic without even having sat down at the
:09:04. > :09:11.negotiating table and two are to threats, how it could be. Would it
:09:12. > :09:17.happen, issuing a threat? You heard him and its use -- it's his words.
:09:18. > :09:20.It would be better to sit down and talk concretely instead of doing
:09:21. > :09:26.things, one of the other, small issues. You are obviously Defence
:09:27. > :09:31.Minister of Germany. That has turned to defence matters. Donald Trump, in
:09:32. > :09:35.an interview in January that he gave to the times newspaper, he described
:09:36. > :09:45.Nato as obsolete because it's not taking care of the jihadist threats.
:09:46. > :09:52.What is your reaction? I think that we have this long history of trust
:09:53. > :09:57.and reliance in Nato and we have the experience that is high value that
:09:58. > :10:02.we have article five, it is one of us is attacked, all of us stand up.
:10:03. > :10:06.We saw it with 9/11. The United States were being attacked by Al
:10:07. > :10:11.Qaeda and all of us, we stood up and we are still in Afghanistan and it
:10:12. > :10:14.is good that we have the proof that we can rely on each other. This is
:10:15. > :10:21.the one part. Fighting terror started at that time. Al-Qaeda was
:10:22. > :10:26.the first massive terror attack of a terroristic group said therefore, we
:10:27. > :10:32.are in the process, globally, to fight terror. Nato plays a key rule.
:10:33. > :10:39.Therefore, I think there are many objective facts that we need Nato.
:10:40. > :10:44.He has also said other worrying things. You mention article five.
:10:45. > :10:49.For example, if Russia were to attack a Nato member, he would
:10:50. > :10:51.consider first whether the targeted country had met its defence
:10:52. > :11:02.commitments before providing military aid. And he was very clear.
:11:03. > :11:06.I think that... Have you raised that because that is a serious matter.
:11:07. > :11:10.One part is, article five and our promise in the transatlantic
:11:11. > :11:15.alliance to stand up for each other. It is not a question of cost
:11:16. > :11:21.effectiveness. On the other hand, and beret with our American friends,
:11:22. > :11:25.since long, I think you were pasted take over a fair share of the burden
:11:26. > :11:32.and has to raise the defence budgets. That is the reason why
:11:33. > :11:35.Germany, since a couple of years, we are raising the defence Budget. Way
:11:36. > :11:40.higher than the proportion of the overall Budget in Germany. Your
:11:41. > :11:45.intention is to raise it by 2020 but had to put it to you, Minister, that
:11:46. > :11:50.Germany is not meeting Nato 's target on defence spending. It
:11:51. > :11:54.should be 2% of GDP and is currently over 1% and even with your increased
:11:55. > :12:01.spending, you will not meet your target. But the steps in right
:12:02. > :12:05.direction. How will you meet a target? We are coming from a time
:12:06. > :12:13.prime right after the reunification period of peace and the so-called
:12:14. > :12:17.peace dividend. And when I came into office, I realised we had to have a
:12:18. > :12:22.turnaround, a turnaround in armament, I need more personnel, I
:12:23. > :12:27.need a strong rise in the Budget over years. This turnaround has been
:12:28. > :12:32.accepted by Parliament which is very important so we have a clear plan.
:12:33. > :12:37.We will invest over 130 billion euros over the next 15 years, surely
:12:38. > :12:43.in armament. We are raising the amount of soldiers that we have. The
:12:44. > :12:47.Armed Forces are 250,000 personnel, military and civilian ones, so the
:12:48. > :12:51.numbers go on the right direction. Another aspect of what President
:12:52. > :12:57.Trump said concerning defence matters is that he has touted this
:12:58. > :13:01.idea of lifting sanctions against Russia, US and EU sanctions, which
:13:02. > :13:07.were imposed after Russia took Crimea. And he is stating that if
:13:08. > :13:11.there is a deal with Russia on nuclear arms reduction, he would
:13:12. > :13:16.lift those sanctions. That is surely something that many people would
:13:17. > :13:24.welcome? What we know is that Ukraine accepted to get rid of its
:13:25. > :13:31.nuclear weapons. Many, many years ago. With a guarantee, a written
:13:32. > :13:38.guarantee from Russia to respect and protect its border. This deal has
:13:39. > :13:46.been violated by the annexation of Crimea. Therefore, it is very clear
:13:47. > :13:50.that the combination, nuclear weapon reduction, and sanction reduction,
:13:51. > :13:55.does not work at all. So it's not something Germany would support? Not
:13:56. > :13:59.at all. The sanctions are connected to the Minsk agreement because of
:14:00. > :14:04.the hybrid warfare of Russia in the eastern Ukraine and if we are
:14:05. > :14:05.talking in terms of deals, this is the deal, Minsk agreement fulfilled,
:14:06. > :14:15.then sanction reduction. OK, so that is clearly an area where
:14:16. > :14:20.you don't see eye to eye with President Trump. In terms of Russia,
:14:21. > :14:24.we have heard, of course, very, very serious warnings from the German
:14:25. > :14:28.intelligence agencies that there is some kind of role that is coming
:14:29. > :14:31.from Russia in terms of online attacks and misinformation, and you
:14:32. > :14:34.are all very concerned about that because you have got your national
:14:35. > :14:37.elections in September this year, and the US vice president in the
:14:38. > :14:42.Obama administration, Joe Biden, said he had no doubt that Russia
:14:43. > :14:47.interfered with the US elections, through its online attacks and
:14:48. > :14:57.hacking. What are you doing to try to stop this? What action can you
:14:58. > :15:02.take? It is a real concern, bots, trolls, fake news, we have it all.
:15:03. > :15:06.And therefore I created a cyber command which is merging the
:15:07. > :15:12.intelligence officers with the IT officers. Cyber command means
:15:13. > :15:17.visibility, strength, and we are constantly addressing, in public,
:15:18. > :15:23.the topics. Because the public has to understand what our bots, what
:15:24. > :15:28.are trolls, what are fake news? We are learning in public now that not
:15:29. > :15:32.every opinion out there is a real opinion, from a person, but it can
:15:33. > :15:35.be an algorithm, it can be a computer driven opinions, that are
:15:36. > :15:40.there. And therefore it is very important to realise what we do not
:15:41. > :15:46.want is machine against human being. We want human beings in dialogue, to
:15:47. > :15:51.have their opinions, and to debate about opinions. That is democracy.
:15:52. > :15:56.But democracy is as it is is not machines against humans. Fake news
:15:57. > :15:59.is one thing but on this issue of spying, hacking by Russia, you very
:16:00. > :16:04.clearly pointed the finger at Russia. The NATO chief accepts that
:16:05. > :16:08.there is a problem, that some states are doing this, but he has declined
:16:09. > :16:15.to specifically name any country, including Russia. Would you like
:16:16. > :16:20.NATO to do more? We have to prove it. Case by case by case. We have to
:16:21. > :16:27.defend ourselves, support our cyber security, absolutely true. But we
:16:28. > :16:31.have proved in Germany where it was clear that it was the Kremlin who
:16:32. > :16:36.tried to interfere with public opinion. I will give you an example,
:16:37. > :16:42.of the case where there was a rumour out that refugees, plural, had raped
:16:43. > :16:49.a 13-year-old girl of Russian descent. None of it was true. It had
:16:50. > :16:54.a huge reaction in the Russian-speaking community in
:16:55. > :16:57.Germany, and it ended with the Foreign Minister of Russia saying
:16:58. > :17:03.this time he hopes Germany would not hide the fact. So the good part in
:17:04. > :17:11.it, in this is an ugly story, is that the German media dismantled and
:17:12. > :17:15.showed the whole fake news plot. And what the intention is behind it.
:17:16. > :17:20.Therefore we are learning the patterns. And I am talking about
:17:21. > :17:25.that just to say, just to make sure, don't try to interfere in that way,
:17:26. > :17:30.because we are showing the patterns to the public. Right, you mentioned
:17:31. > :17:34.refugees, and of course Angela Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany,
:17:35. > :17:37.with her opendoor policy and taking in millions of refugees last year
:17:38. > :17:41.has provoked quite a reaction. Even she has said that what has happened
:17:42. > :17:44.will not happen again. You have got these national elections coming up
:17:45. > :17:50.in September, in the spring you've got some regional elections. You are
:17:51. > :17:54.Deputy Chair of the ruling CDU, which Angela Merkel is the chat, of
:17:55. > :17:59.course. You must be very worried, particularly with the rise of some
:18:00. > :18:05.of the anti-immigration parties like AfD, alternative for Deutschland.
:18:06. > :18:13.The rise of the populist party AfD has... The migration flow in 2015
:18:14. > :18:17.was the trigger, without any doubt. Different from other countries,
:18:18. > :18:21.where you have populist movement as well, but the trigger was not the
:18:22. > :18:26.economic system or the economic situation in Germany. We have a very
:18:27. > :18:30.robust economy. We have unemployment that is as low as never before in
:18:31. > :18:36.our history, almost no youth unemployment. We have rising wages,
:18:37. > :18:42.rising pensions, stable prices, so the economy is strong. But the
:18:43. > :18:49.experience of the almost 900,000 refugees in 2015 really worried the
:18:50. > :18:56.public, without any doubt. And this made it easier for populist parties.
:18:57. > :19:03.What happened this year is we have a reduction of the migrant flow. Less
:19:04. > :19:06.than one third did come. So this is an improvement, and at the moment
:19:07. > :19:13.being, you see that confidence is coming back. But what are you doing?
:19:14. > :19:17.Because you know, the AfD took more votes than the CDU in Angela
:19:18. > :19:21.Merkel's own home state. And I will tell you what one of your allies,
:19:22. > :19:25.the leader of a very's Christian social union, which is allied to
:19:26. > :19:29.your party, said we owe it to the victims of the terrible market
:19:30. > :19:32.attack at Christmas in Berlin, to those affected and to the whole
:19:33. > :19:37.population, to rethink our immigration and security policy, and
:19:38. > :19:42.to change it. So what are you doing, in the light of the concern about
:19:43. > :19:46.refugees, especially since people are concerned that some of them may
:19:47. > :19:49.carry out terrible attacks like the one we in December in Berlin? Be
:19:50. > :19:54.clear about the rules. We will always be open for a silent, people
:19:55. > :19:57.who need asylum, because this is in our Constitution. But we a lot of
:19:58. > :20:04.people coming to our economic migrants. This is no door to enter
:20:05. > :20:08.our country. Economic migrants have to go back to their countries. These
:20:09. > :20:13.are the rules. We have been working hard, and we are still working hard,
:20:14. > :20:17.on improving the registration, on securing the outside border, on
:20:18. > :20:22.clarifying who can stay and who has to go home. We are having a contract
:20:23. > :20:27.now with Turkey, with some African countries. What I'm displaying is
:20:28. > :20:32.you have to work on the root causes for what happened in 2015. And
:20:33. > :20:38.slowly but surely, step I step, people realise if we don't work with
:20:39. > :20:43.Africa, for example, on reducing migrant flows, invest in Africa
:20:44. > :20:46.instability, in economic development, then it will be
:20:47. > :20:51.difficult to tackle the problem. But if we do so, the migrant flows are
:20:52. > :20:55.reduced, and this is the fruit of consistent policies, which we are
:20:56. > :21:01.doing. Which is why we saw Mrs Merkel visit three African countries
:21:02. > :21:05.in 2016. At this is a very key moment for Germany, the league
:21:06. > :21:11.nation in the European Union. You know, one of the biggest economies
:21:12. > :21:15.in the world. Your president has said just now democratic and stable
:21:16. > :21:19.Germany faces threat, and he is looking at the jihadist threat that
:21:20. > :21:25.we have talked about, and he is talking about obviously Brexit, and
:21:26. > :21:30.also a new Trump presidency. So is a critical moment, isn't it, for
:21:31. > :21:33.Germany? For Germany and for the open Society and democracy. Because
:21:34. > :21:37.what he is talking about, he is painting a picture of all this is
:21:38. > :21:40.potentially undermining trust and confidence in democratic
:21:41. > :21:45.institutions, and what we have to do, and this is a crucial time,
:21:46. > :21:48.stand up the open society. Fight for the urban society. Show that are
:21:49. > :21:53.better off with freedom, freedom of press, freedom of opinion, freedom
:21:54. > :21:58.of religion, but respect for human rights, the rule of law. He so we
:21:59. > :22:03.have to speak up that this is the better model for the future, than
:22:04. > :22:07.other proposals. I had to ask you now, turning to a personal matter,
:22:08. > :22:12.you gave birth to seven children, including one set of twins. And you
:22:13. > :22:17.know, we have heard some talk and debate sometimes about senior female
:22:18. > :22:26.politicians, who haven't had children, like the British Prime
:22:27. > :22:30.Minister, Angela Merkel. Do you think that is a reflection of
:22:31. > :22:34.societal prejudices, or do you think it is cheap political pointscoring?
:22:35. > :22:39.Is an absolutely necessary debate. So every single person, the man or
:22:40. > :22:45.woman, rings along a certain biography. And a certain set of
:22:46. > :22:49.values. And we deal with them, and within this context. But I would
:22:50. > :22:53.never, ever reduce it to having children or not having children,
:22:54. > :22:59.never. Now, your admirers also talk about you as being a successor to
:23:00. > :23:04.Chancellor Angela Merkel, whenever she decides to step down. What do
:23:05. > :23:09.you say to them? That every generation has a chancellor, and in
:23:10. > :23:14.my generation is Angela Merkel. And I am very, very glad and proud that
:23:15. > :23:18.I can serve with her. So is that no or a yes, or is it ducking the
:23:19. > :23:24.question? It is dark and the question, isn't it? This is a nice
:23:25. > :23:30.term, I didn't know it before. So elections in September, CDU are
:23:31. > :23:35.going to come top and still be the government in Germany? Yes, I think
:23:36. > :23:39.so. No shock outcomes like we saw with Brexit and the Trump victory?
:23:40. > :23:46.No, we're working hard on that goal. There is a good probability we will
:23:47. > :23:48.be able reach it. Ursula von der Leyen, thank you for coming on
:23:49. > :23:53.HARDtalk. Thank you.