:00:00. > :00:07.Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg on HARDtalk.
:00:08. > :00:09.Welcome to HARDtalk from Nato headquarters in Brussels.
:00:10. > :00:18.The job of Nato Secretary General isn't an easy one, this alliance
:00:19. > :00:22.And achieving that consensus just got a whole lot
:00:23. > :00:25.harder for my guest today, Jens Stoltenberg, Nato's chief.
:00:26. > :00:33.The United States, Nato's dominant member, is now
:00:34. > :00:36.being led by President Trump, who has voiced grave doubts
:00:37. > :01:03.So, will Trump's assent hasten the demise of Nato?
:01:04. > :01:04.Jens Stoltenberg, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:05. > :01:08.Would you agree the presidency of Donald Trump brings
:01:09. > :01:10.an unprecedented amount of uncertainty into
:01:11. > :01:23.Nato is an alliance of 28 democracies and in democracies,
:01:24. > :01:25.With different ideas, different perspectives.
:01:26. > :01:34.And Nato has been able to handle that for almost 70 years.
:01:35. > :01:36.You have 28 members, one dominant member,
:01:37. > :01:42.The United States of America now has a president who,
:01:43. > :01:48.just a few days ago, declared Nato "obsolete".
:01:49. > :01:50.Nato is the most successful alliance in history,
:01:51. > :01:55.because we have been able to adapt to change.
:01:56. > :01:58.For 40 years we did collective defence in Europe, deterring Russia.
:01:59. > :02:00.Then we adapted after the end of the Cold War.
:02:01. > :02:06.We projected stability beyond our borders and in conflicts
:02:07. > :02:07.in the Balkans, Kosovo, Bosnia, fighting terrorism
:02:08. > :02:14.in Afghanistan and we are adapting again.
:02:15. > :02:16.Responding to a more assertive Russia in the east.
:02:17. > :02:19.How do you adapt to a US president who believes Nato to be obsolete?
:02:20. > :02:23.What I will tell him and what I already told him is that
:02:24. > :02:27.is that Nato is changing because the world is changing.
:02:28. > :02:30.When I spoke to him, he was very committed to Nato.
:02:31. > :02:42.He expressed a strong support to Nato.
:02:43. > :02:45.I look forward to working with him in continuing to adapt to Nato
:02:46. > :02:47.because I don't see any contradiction between saying that
:02:48. > :02:50.Nato is important but at the same time saying that Nato has to change,
:02:51. > :02:54.I understand but let's engage with what he has actually said
:02:55. > :02:57.to the Times newspaper just a few days ago he said that
:02:58. > :03:00.I'm just wondering how you reacted to that.
:03:01. > :03:03.Well, I will continue to tell the story about Nato
:03:04. > :03:06.and an alliance which has proven, for almost 70 years, able to change
:03:07. > :03:14.Then I will sit down with him and discuss concrete measures,
:03:15. > :03:17.concrete issues where we can do more, where we can change more.
:03:18. > :03:19.And then I agree with President Trump that
:03:20. > :03:22.That is exactly what we have started to do.
:03:23. > :03:24.And we are doing that by addressing issues like defence
:03:25. > :03:26.spending and terrorism, the two main issues
:03:27. > :03:36.We will get to the nitty-gritty of defence spending,
:03:37. > :03:38.fighting terror and strategy, on that front, later.
:03:39. > :03:43.Would you accept that Nato only works if the member states of Nato
:03:44. > :03:45.share fundamental values about human rights, about freedom,
:03:46. > :03:57.Democracy, the rule of law, individual liberties.
:03:58. > :04:04.In our treaty, we mention democracy, individual liberties
:04:05. > :04:11.That reflects the need to protect human rights.
:04:12. > :04:14.Do you believe there is place for torture in a security policy?
:04:15. > :04:17.No. I'm opposed to torture.
:04:18. > :04:25.Torture is against international law.
:04:26. > :04:27.All Nato missions and operations activities are conducted in
:04:28. > :04:33.When Donald Trump says he absolutely believes that
:04:34. > :04:38.waterboarding, for example, works, how do you respond to that?
:04:39. > :04:41.I've seen his statements, but I've also seen that there is a debate
:04:42. > :04:47.I also saw that President Trump stated clearly that he would consult
:04:48. > :04:55.with the Defence Secretary and with the CIA director.
:04:56. > :04:59.They have both expressed strong... Resistance.
:05:00. > :05:09.In your view, was he right or wrong when he said waterboarding works,
:05:10. > :05:13.he said that other people in his security establishment
:05:14. > :05:21.I'm asking you about Donald Trump who is now the president
:05:22. > :05:23.of the United States, he's the leader of the
:05:24. > :05:24.most important member of the organisation.
:05:25. > :05:27.And I express my opinion and the opinion of Nato
:05:28. > :05:30.and I tell you what Nato do, what we do in our operations.
:05:31. > :05:36.How damaging is it for Nato, which is a 28-strong alliance
:05:37. > :05:40.which purports to represent key values, how damaging is it
:05:41. > :05:44.when Donald Trump makes, it seems, a case for torture.
:05:45. > :05:49.It has happened before that there are discussions between allies
:05:50. > :06:00.How damaging is it, Secretary General?
:06:01. > :06:02.But the important thing is what we decide, the conclusions
:06:03. > :06:05.that we draw and President Trump made it clear that he would not make
:06:06. > :06:13.any decisions about waterboarding or torture before he had consulted,
:06:14. > :06:16.and he mentioned the Secretary of Defence and the CIA director.
:06:17. > :06:18.They have expressed that they are against waterboarding and torture.
:06:19. > :06:22.All of our operations are conducted in line with international law.
:06:23. > :06:26.Torture is against international law.
:06:27. > :06:34.That's my position and I will convey that position very clearly.
:06:35. > :06:39.I'm wondering, again, how you respond to things
:06:40. > :06:43.that the new United States President has said.
:06:44. > :06:46.Donald Trump has said with regard to the American invasion of Iraq,
:06:47. > :06:53."It was a terrible mistake for the United States not
:06:54. > :06:56.to commandeer the oilfields and take that resource from Iraq".
:06:57. > :06:58.He's also said in the past that he will consider recognising
:06:59. > :07:05.Are these values that you believe represent Nato's values?
:07:06. > :07:07.To accept, for instance, the annexation of Crimea will be
:07:08. > :07:13.against Nato values and clear Nato decisions.
:07:14. > :07:18.Again, we have seen many times before that, especially
:07:19. > :07:20.in election campaigns, but also after election campaigns
:07:21. > :07:29.The important thing is that Nato, again and again, have been able
:07:30. > :07:31.to reach a consensus, to make decisions together.
:07:32. > :07:34.What you seem to be saying is that you desperately hope that
:07:35. > :07:37.many of the clear statements Donald Trump has made about global
:07:38. > :07:39.security policy are not what he's going to do.
:07:40. > :07:42.Because if they are what he's going to do, you've got a grave problem.
:07:43. > :07:47.We are still in the early days and the important thing
:07:48. > :07:53.is now that we sit down, all the Nato leaders,
:07:54. > :07:56.that we consult, that we discuss the issues where we have different
:07:57. > :08:02.And, once again, proove that we are able to reach common conclusions
:08:03. > :08:14.I maybe be misreading you, but in your answers to me,
:08:15. > :08:16.I sense a certain degree of apprehension, worry,
:08:17. > :08:18.about what Donald Trump is bringing to the table?
:08:19. > :08:24.I am actually very confident that President Trump
:08:25. > :08:26.and the new administration, they are strongly committed
:08:27. > :08:35.Because they see that a strong Nato is not only good
:08:36. > :08:37.for Europe but it is also good for the United States.
:08:38. > :08:40.Two world wars and a Cold War have taught us that stability
:08:41. > :08:44.in Europe is also important for the United States.
:08:45. > :08:47.They know that the only time Nato has invoked Article 5,
:08:48. > :08:49.our defence clause, was after an attack
:08:50. > :08:54.Hundreds of thousands of European soldiers, including many
:08:55. > :08:57.from the United Kingdom, have been stationed and have been
:08:58. > :08:59.fighting, in Afghanistan in a military operation
:09:00. > :09:07.that was a direct response to an attack on the United States.
:09:08. > :09:10.In the United States, they know that Nato is important also for them.
:09:11. > :09:18.I'm sure you have seen Theresa May's words in the United States
:09:19. > :09:24.just a short time ago where she said we...
:09:25. > :09:27.She's talking about the US-UK relationship, "we will no longer
:09:28. > :09:29.undertake foreign military interventions to remake
:09:30. > :09:33.Now that, to me, sounds like a major strategic rethink,
:09:34. > :09:41.Yes, and it is also in line with the thinking in Nato.
:09:42. > :09:46.Because Nato has, of course, has to remain able to conduct big
:09:47. > :09:49.combat operations out of our own area like we have done
:09:50. > :09:58.But her words are precisely saying "no longer will we undertake
:09:59. > :10:01.the sorts of foreign interventions like Afghanistan, like Iraq".
:10:02. > :10:03.That is the history, that is not going to be
:10:04. > :10:07.There is a big differs between Afghanistan and Iraq.
:10:08. > :10:12.Afghanistan had a clear UN mandate and Nato operation.
:10:13. > :10:14.With respect, hang on, hang on, she says "we will no longer remake
:10:15. > :10:21.Right now, today, as we speak, you and Nato are spending billions
:10:22. > :10:26.of dollars with hundreds of personnel continuing to be
:10:27. > :10:30.to be in Afghanistan, to, as you put it, "train,
:10:31. > :10:32.advise and assist the Afghan military in resolute
:10:33. > :10:37.What on earth are you doing there if you are not trying
:10:38. > :10:39.to remake Afghanistan in the image of Western values?
:10:40. > :10:42.First of all, the UK is very committed to our
:10:43. > :10:49.I've spoken with Prime Minister Theresa May and she and I,
:10:50. > :10:52.we very much have the same approach to how we can strengthen Nato
:10:53. > :10:54.and project stability beyond our borders,
:10:55. > :10:58.without deploying Nato troops in big combat operations.
:10:59. > :11:02.But deploying Nato troops to train, assist and advise local forces
:11:03. > :11:07.Are you not, to use her phrase, trying to remake Afghanistan
:11:08. > :11:15.Isn't that what the Afghan operation was about?
:11:16. > :11:18.But the character of Nato's presence in Afghanistan has
:11:19. > :11:22.completely changed from a combat operation to a train,
:11:23. > :11:25.assist and advise, meaning that we are there now to enable
:11:26. > :11:26.the Afghans themselves to fight terrorism.
:11:27. > :11:31.To stabilise their own country and I really believe
:11:32. > :11:33.that in the long run, the best weapon we have against
:11:34. > :11:41.I know that the UK is absolutely behind that idea of fighting
:11:42. > :11:44.terrorism not only by deploying our own forces but more by enabling
:11:45. > :11:46.local forces to fight terrorism themselves.
:11:47. > :11:49.This is the message she conveys and I absolutely agree with her.
:11:50. > :11:52.A general point, did you see just a few days ago
:11:53. > :12:00.that the Doomsday Clock, which is supervised by a very
:12:01. > :12:02.reputable bunch of scientists, the Bulletin of Atomic
:12:03. > :12:09.It's an indication of how close they believe us to be
:12:10. > :12:13.They put that clock forward to two and a half minutes to midnight
:12:14. > :12:15.because they said they had considered Donald Trump's election
:12:16. > :12:22.comments, they considered his comments on nuclear weapons
:12:23. > :12:25.in particular and they considered the global security situation.
:12:26. > :12:28.And Trump's comments on climate change and all in all,
:12:29. > :12:44.And I don't see any imminent threat for a large-scale war
:12:45. > :12:48.The main reason why Nato is strong is that we are able
:12:49. > :12:56.We have a strong, collective defence in Nato.
:12:57. > :12:59.It is not to provoke a conflict, it's not to destabilise,
:13:00. > :13:04.I understand it, I know what you want Nato to be doing
:13:05. > :13:06.but I'm asking you, time and again, to consider
:13:07. > :13:16.This is what the former Nato Ambassador from
:13:17. > :13:18.the United States, said the other day.
:13:19. > :13:22."We are now entering an upside down world,
:13:23. > :13:26.Donald Trump is more critical of Nato, the EU, Germany,
:13:27. > :13:35.Germany, all close allies, then he is and has ever been
:13:36. > :13:37.of Putin and Russia, that is an upside down world".
:13:38. > :13:40.We are seeing clear statements from President Trump
:13:41. > :13:42.but also his security team, that they will remain
:13:43. > :13:45.You're ignoring all the other comments from Trump?
:13:46. > :13:50.In addition to that, we see that words are followed by deeds.
:13:51. > :13:52.They are now deploying forces, new US forces, to Europe,
:13:53. > :13:59.Those were all decisions taken under Barack Obama.
:14:00. > :14:02.But it has strong bipartisan support from both the Republicans
:14:03. > :14:07.And they have promised to continue to follow up on, for instance,
:14:08. > :14:13.I promised you we would talk specifics about some
:14:14. > :14:14.of Donald Trump's particular grievances with Nato.
:14:15. > :14:27.He says "we are getting ripped off by every other country in Nato".
:14:28. > :14:30.He says "unless countries front up and pay the required 2% of GDP
:14:31. > :14:32.on their military spending, the United States will consider
:14:33. > :14:34.consider walking away from the Nato alliance".
:14:35. > :14:36.Right now only five countries meet that 2% threshold,
:14:37. > :14:52.that means Nato is in grave danger, doesn't it?
:14:53. > :14:55.Well, what we have seen is that Nato allies in Europe
:14:56. > :14:56.have started to increase defence spending.
:14:57. > :14:59.How much is Germany going to be spending in the
:15:00. > :15:02.next financial year on its military as a proportion of its GDP?
:15:03. > :15:06.That's almost 50% below what Donald Trump says
:15:07. > :15:09.they have to spend, if he's not to consider walking out of Nato.
:15:10. > :15:12.I agree with President Trump that European Nato allies had to spend
:15:13. > :15:15.I agree with President Trump that European Nato allies have to spend
:15:16. > :15:19.more, that's the reason why I increased defence spending, more
:15:20. > :15:22.investment in defence has been my main message since I took over.
:15:23. > :15:25.What is your message to Chancellor Merkel?
:15:26. > :15:33.It is that Germany has to spend more and that the good news is
:15:34. > :15:35.that they have decided to increase defence spending
:15:36. > :15:37.and had started to, and for the first time in years
:15:38. > :15:42.we saw in 2015 that the cuts stopped, and 2016 we
:15:43. > :15:56.These are being words for years and years,
:15:57. > :16:00.I've been coming to Nato for years, and heard Secretary Generals
:16:01. > :16:03.tell me that we will get to the 2% threshold any
:16:04. > :16:11.If it doesn't happen now, Donald Trump is clear
:16:12. > :16:14.that the US will not keep paying for other people's bills.
:16:15. > :16:18.The big difference is that for many years we
:16:19. > :16:23.have decreased tensions, and defence spending went down.
:16:24. > :16:25.Now tensions are increasing again and we
:16:26. > :16:31.need to prove that we are able to increase defence spending.
:16:32. > :16:33.Nato leaders made the in September 2014 to stop the cuts, to
:16:34. > :16:36.gradually increase funding and to
:16:37. > :16:41.How worried are you by the Russian threat to
:16:42. > :16:48.We see a more assertive Russia, we have seen
:16:49. > :16:50.a significant military build-up but we don't see
:16:51. > :16:58.Nato has responded, that is the reason why we have
:16:59. > :17:01.for the first time had troops in the eastern part of the alliance.
:17:02. > :17:06.We have increased forces so we can respond rapidly if needed.
:17:07. > :17:08.We do more exercises, we respond also in cyber and other domains.
:17:09. > :17:10.But we don't seek confrontation with Russia,
:17:11. > :17:12.we don't want to renew the
:17:13. > :17:15.Cold War so we combine strength and a firm approach with open
:17:16. > :17:27.Donald Trump has described Vladimir Putin as smart, talks
:17:28. > :17:30.about his admiration for him and said I start off inclined
:17:31. > :17:32.to trust both Putin and Merkel, but let's see
:17:33. > :17:39.There is an equivalence in his view of Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin.
:17:40. > :17:43.Do you see Putin as smart and admirable?
:17:44. > :17:46.I met Putin many times, and I have been able to
:17:47. > :17:49.do deals with the Russians and the Prime Minister and I think
:17:50. > :17:52.one of the lessons I learned from being a
:17:53. > :17:54.politician is that it is possible to have a pragmatic
:17:55. > :18:00.It is possible to be a neighbour to Russia as long as you are strong,
:18:01. > :18:03.as long as you are firm, as long as you are
:18:04. > :18:10.And that is what Norway has been able to be,
:18:11. > :18:14.not in spite of Nato but because of Nato.
:18:15. > :18:15.So I believe this dual track approach,
:18:16. > :18:19.strong, predictable, but at the same time open channels for political
:18:20. > :18:21.communication, for dialogue, to try to find ways
:18:22. > :18:29.The question is whether Nato is really offering a deterrent
:18:30. > :18:32.A study by the Rand Corporation recently said Russia
:18:33. > :18:36.could overrun Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in three days.
:18:37. > :18:43.What kind of deterrent are you really offering?
:18:44. > :18:49.I think that 70 years of Nato has proven that we are providing... Why
:18:50. > :18:53.thank you talk about the past but I'm talking about the present and
:18:54. > :18:58.future. But we have proven in almost 70 years we are able to provide
:18:59. > :19:01.credible deterrence. Estonia's Prime Minister doesn't believe that, he
:19:02. > :19:05.has demanded that Nato troops be permanently stationed in his
:19:06. > :19:10.country, are you prepared to axe it to that request? We are now
:19:11. > :19:14.deploying four battalions. Including one to Estonia led by the United
:19:15. > :19:20.Kingdom. That will be a presence. That is a few hundred troops. Around
:19:21. > :19:23.1000 troops. Do you know how may troops the Russians can call upon to
:19:24. > :19:27.be in the Baltic states in no time at all? Hundreds of thousands. Why
:19:28. > :19:32.invoking national presence in the Baltic countries, that sends a very
:19:33. > :19:35.clear signal that an attack on one of the Baltic countries will trigger
:19:36. > :19:40.a response from the entire alliance. On top of the increased military
:19:41. > :19:44.presence, we have established new high readiness forces, which can be
:19:45. > :19:51.deployed very quickly if needed, to reinforce. This is part of a chain
:19:52. > :19:56.of different elements which all adds to much higher readiness and
:19:57. > :20:00.increased collective defence, the biggest enforcement of collective
:20:01. > :20:03.defence of the end of the Cold War. Cyber security, not least because of
:20:04. > :20:08.allegations about Russian interference in the US election,
:20:09. > :20:12.there is a big focus on cyber security, in Germany, too. Where
:20:13. > :20:16.Angela Merkel said she believes the Russians are interfering in German
:20:17. > :20:24.politics. Is Nato, in any sense, prepared for the systemic, organised
:20:25. > :20:28.cyber security attacks would may come from countries hostile to the
:20:29. > :20:34.Western alliance in the future? Yes, we are. Because we have invested a
:20:35. > :20:38.lot. We have strengthened our cyber defences a lot over the past couple
:20:39. > :20:43.of years. We have seen that the cyber threats poses a new challenge
:20:44. > :20:49.for the Nato alliance. And for the member countries. Do you buy the
:20:50. > :20:53.intelligence services in Russia or authorised from the very top,
:20:54. > :20:57.according to US intelligence chiefs, Russia has been responsible for
:20:58. > :21:02.systemic hacking in the United States? In Germany, as well? Of the
:21:03. > :21:07.politics of those countries? Because if you do believe that, and
:21:08. > :21:12.presumably, right now, your mindset is to view Russia on various
:21:13. > :21:17.different fronts as "The enemy". I trust the reports we have seen from
:21:18. > :21:20.many national intelligence services, including from Germany and the
:21:21. > :21:25.United States and others, that Russia is behind many of the cyber
:21:26. > :21:29.attacks. We have seen the same pattern against, for instance,
:21:30. > :21:32.Nato's own cyber networks. That's the reason why we are stepping up,
:21:33. > :21:39.for instance, we have decided to establish cyber as a domain military
:21:40. > :21:46.operation, alongside air, land and sea. In a sense, these are hostile
:21:47. > :21:49.acts from the Russian state against your members states and indeed
:21:50. > :21:58.against Nato's organisation itself? Yes. And we have seen the same
:21:59. > :22:01.pattern, we saw it in 2007. We saw a very big attack against Estonia.
:22:02. > :22:04.That was one of the reasons why we started to strengthen our own cyber
:22:05. > :22:08.defences. Which brings me back to where we began an Donald Trump host
:22:09. > :22:11.of Donald Trump admires Putin, says he is smart, says that working
:22:12. > :22:18.closely with Putin would be an asset to the United States. I come back to
:22:19. > :22:22.Ivo Daaler's point, this is the world upside down. He has expressed
:22:23. > :22:26.strong support for the transatlantic partnership, for Nato. We will sit
:22:27. > :22:31.down and work with each other on how we can continue to strengthen and
:22:32. > :22:35.adapt to change the security environment. The final point is more
:22:36. > :22:39.philosophical, Donald Trump is quite plain in his approach. It is all
:22:40. > :22:44.about America first. He is, and I don't think he would mind me saying
:22:45. > :22:48.it, a nationalist politician. We've seen nationalism on the rise in many
:22:49. > :22:53.different countries, one can certainly say Vladimir Putin is a
:22:54. > :22:57.nationalist politician. In this contest context, the emergence of
:22:58. > :23:04.nationalist leaders who put their countries first, what role is
:23:05. > :23:07.therefore a collective cooperative organisation like Nato? -- in this
:23:08. > :23:11.global context, the emergence. Strong Nato is in the interest of
:23:12. > :23:17.the United States. To have stability and peace in Europe. We have seen
:23:18. > :23:20.that for the United States it is a great advantage to have friends and
:23:21. > :23:27.allies. I will tell all the Americans I meet that you have to
:23:28. > :23:33.make sure that you see the value of having close and good friends and
:23:34. > :23:37.allies as you have in the north Atlantic. And if they don't? I am
:23:38. > :23:40.certain they will, partly because they have expressed strong support
:23:41. > :23:44.of Nato and partly because they have learned the lessons from two world
:23:45. > :23:47.wars and the Cold War that Nato is also important for the security of
:23:48. > :23:51.North America. And partly because they are now increasing their
:23:52. > :23:57.presence, the US presence, with troops, equipment, repositioned
:23:58. > :24:01.supplies in Europe to make sure the transatlantic bond remains strong.
:24:02. > :24:04.Jens Stoltenberg, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank
:24:05. > :24:07.you.