:00:00. > :00:14.The UK Parliament is about to vote on the Government's plan to trigger
:00:15. > :00:17.Article 50, the formal process which will end in Britain
:00:18. > :00:25.There's little doubt MPs will give prime minister Theresa May
:00:26. > :00:29.a green light, but much has changed since last June's Brexit referendum.
:00:30. > :00:32.The government has clarified its vision of what Brexit means,
:00:33. > :00:37.while President Donald Trump is shaking up global politics.
:00:38. > :00:41.What place will post-Brexit Britain occupy on the world stage?
:00:42. > :01:19.My guess is that today is conservative MP Domin Raab.
:01:20. > :01:32.Domin Raab, welcome to HARDtalk. You are a Westminster MP who took the
:01:33. > :01:36.somewhat difficult to understand position of having the right to give
:01:37. > :01:41.a green light to Article 50 taking the view that that was wrong and it
:01:42. > :01:47.should not be allowed. I took the view it as did all the MPs who
:01:48. > :01:52.passed the referendum legislation by 61. We gave this decision to the
:01:53. > :01:57.English people and by the way all parties agreed to this and having
:01:58. > :02:08.done that we need to respect it. The committee is scrutinising every
:02:09. > :02:11.negotiation at their son have any guises for holding up and
:02:12. > :02:16.frustrating at the verdict by the British people. There will be a
:02:17. > :02:21.verdict in the coming days in Westminster. There will be a debate.
:02:22. > :02:27.We know various opposition LPs, Labour 's all Scottish Nationalists,
:02:28. > :02:34.have various amendments to put forward. It will be a lively debate.
:02:35. > :02:41.Terrific. The 17th and debates we have had on the Mac. Every Democrat
:02:42. > :02:45.in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords will have their cards
:02:46. > :02:49.called. Are we talking about scrutiny all our people frustrating
:02:50. > :02:55.the wheel of the British people trying to scrap Brexit altogether?
:02:56. > :03:03.Everybody will be accountable including yourself. One of the
:03:04. > :03:09.reasons the row so many Remainers deeply bitter is they feel you in
:03:10. > :03:15.the leave camp never came clean during the referendum campaign about
:03:16. > :03:22.the kind of Brexit you wanted. Some of the most prominent leaders wanted
:03:23. > :03:27.an exit which allowed Britain to remain inside the single market and
:03:28. > :03:34.now that seems to be taken off the table. I think that is almost wholly
:03:35. > :03:40.wrong. Every time I was asked that question, all of us said... Let me
:03:41. > :03:47.finish the answer before you can scorn it. We all said and we will be
:03:48. > :03:51.leaving the EU, wanting to take back control of our borders and when
:03:52. > :03:56.asked the critical question about the single market we said we would
:03:57. > :04:03.be looking at the best access but no one said we would remain in the
:04:04. > :04:12.formal single market. Your version is a very different. Daniel and an,
:04:13. > :04:18.a senior MEP... Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place
:04:19. > :04:24.in the single market. Paterson MP, only a madman would actually leave
:04:25. > :04:30.the single market. One more for luck, Aaron Banks, the biggest
:04:31. > :04:35.financier of the Leave campaign quote increasingly the Norway option
:04:36. > :04:41.looks the best for the UK, having access to the single market. It
:04:42. > :04:46.precisely demonstrates my point... I have given you free quote that run
:04:47. > :04:54.counter to what you told me. No one is the single member of the single
:04:55. > :04:59.market. Only a madman... We're not going to leave the single market in
:05:00. > :05:04.terms of a trading relationship at in terms of being a full member. If
:05:05. > :05:09.you look at the detailed comments made, not picking a few quote out of
:05:10. > :05:17.context, time and time again I remember discussing on the campaign,
:05:18. > :05:22.we all said it is clear you could not leave the EU and by the back
:05:23. > :05:27.door coming give up control of your immigration policy, and not have
:05:28. > :05:35.trade negotiations outside of the EU. We said we wanted the strongest
:05:36. > :05:40.possible access to the single market but we would not anticipate being
:05:41. > :05:46.formal members. What we now have is that the cliff edge scenario,
:05:47. > :05:50.something people said Britain should try very desperately not to do.
:05:51. > :05:54.Explain to me why there is not the grave danger that after the
:05:55. > :06:00.triggering of Article 50 Britain will be staring over a cliff edge
:06:01. > :06:06.because there will be no negotiated trade deals and we will go to
:06:07. > :06:15.default, and to everybody concerned that represent a dangerous cliff
:06:16. > :06:21.edge. The pessimistic gloomy BBC portrayal saying that we would have
:06:22. > :06:26.an immediate shock after a Brexit vote, they did not happen. We are
:06:27. > :06:33.the fastest growing economy for 2016. From Google, the Apple, to
:06:34. > :06:38.Dyson. Just this week Weetabix extra investment. All valid points but
:06:39. > :06:46.nothing to do with my question. I waited to address this... But you
:06:47. > :06:51.shifted the goal posts of chairman. I just conducting an interview. You
:06:52. > :06:57.cannot include every discussion you have heard over the last year. I am
:06:58. > :07:03.asking a straightforward question. The forecasts have been demonstrably
:07:04. > :07:08.proven to be false. There will be a slowdown at the high level of growth
:07:09. > :07:12.we have at the moment, the fastest-growing industrialised
:07:13. > :07:16.economy in the world but it will not be nearly as bad as forecasters
:07:17. > :07:21.predict that. Let's take this seriously, someone like Christian
:07:22. > :07:28.Forbes at the Bank of England says all the uncertainty that had
:07:29. > :07:35.the indicators are flawed and from the indicators are flawed and from
:07:36. > :07:46.the Bank of England to the IMF INAUDIBLE. I have decided you did
:07:47. > :07:50.not answer my question. The Maltese Prime Minister got to the heart of
:07:51. > :07:56.this when he said the UK's deal Post Brexit must be worth than the terms
:07:57. > :08:01.of its membership. We can see no situation where whatever is
:08:02. > :08:08.negotiated end up being better than the current situation be UK has. You
:08:09. > :08:14.quoted the Maltese Prime Minister and I will quote... I can quote you
:08:15. > :08:21.Francois Hollande who has said we will pay. Francois Hollande will not
:08:22. > :08:28.be Prime Minister when we do the negotiations. There is a range of
:08:29. > :08:31.different views. From the Spanish Foreign Minister to the chief
:08:32. > :08:36.negotiator who said on the vexed issue of UK financial services he
:08:37. > :08:41.has pointed out that given that Britain puts ?1 trillion worth of
:08:42. > :08:45.Finance into European companies, if we turn around and have a rational
:08:46. > :08:55.being the differential approach to these negotiations... (INAUDIBLE).
:08:56. > :09:03.We need to stop talking about detection is an start looking for
:09:04. > :09:10.the win-win. Angela Merkel, and others, there is a shifting mood in
:09:11. > :09:19.Brussels and there is scope for a win-win scope. Neither you nor I
:09:20. > :09:26.know where the negotiations will go. Your vision of what a post Brexit
:09:27. > :09:32.economy should look like whether or not you get this complicated trade
:09:33. > :09:38.deal. Wasn't it very interesting when the British Chancellor said you
:09:39. > :09:45.know what we may well do over the next few years as a result of
:09:46. > :09:49.Brexit? We make completely transform our economy. Low tax, low public
:09:50. > :09:56.expenditure, a completely different economy. Is that what you want? I
:09:57. > :10:04.not sure those were the words of Philip Hammond. I am paraphrasing
:10:05. > :10:10.but not unfairly. Between the referendum and the negotiations is
:10:11. > :10:15.to stabilise the economy. That is done. Set out the details of our
:10:16. > :10:21.plan. The Prime Minister did that with a positive vision of a post
:10:22. > :10:26.Brexit self-governing democracy, a strong neighbour including on trade
:10:27. > :10:29.and security, a global leader in free trade and the third thing that
:10:30. > :10:36.needed to happen was developed unity of purpose amongst the country at
:10:37. > :10:46.large. Following the Lancaster house speech, the British pub lick 3-1,
:10:47. > :10:49.backed Theresa May's vision. You talk about public opinion, I just
:10:50. > :10:55.wonder whether you believe those Brexit voters, let's talk about a
:10:56. > :11:00.particular place in the North Midlands of the UK, where there will
:11:01. > :11:07.be a by-election. 70% voted Brexit but do you think most of those 70%
:11:08. > :11:18.wanted to see a deregulated INAUDIBLE. I think the point is that
:11:19. > :11:25.Win Win is the speech. Of course, if we do not get a deal, even if the
:11:26. > :11:33.EU... You think that is what the British people voted for? Let me
:11:34. > :11:37.finish. Even if we apply external tariffs, we would have to take some
:11:38. > :11:45.measures to make sure that Brexit the economy can continue to thrive
:11:46. > :11:49.in one is a question of tax and to retain our competitiveness. You
:11:50. > :11:55.would have to slash public spending much more than we have seen thus
:11:56. > :12:01.far. We want Britain to be competitive, that is what attracts
:12:02. > :12:05.investment and create jobs but these silly caricatures of Britain
:12:06. > :12:11.becoming the Singapore of the North Sea, I do not recognise that at all.
:12:12. > :12:16.We need to be brave and go into the negotiations hoping for the best and
:12:17. > :12:23.bracing for the worst. If you look at that YouGov poll, to the extent
:12:24. > :12:27.the EU can trust polls, it strong as public support that if the
:12:28. > :12:31.government did not get a good deal it should not sign up to any terms
:12:32. > :12:36.that we are offered from rustles and in that sense the British public,
:12:37. > :12:42.despite the frenzied polarised media debate, is getting the high-end the
:12:43. > :12:48.Prime Minister. You are taking us dangerously back to the cliff edge.
:12:49. > :12:52.Let's... I want to specific answers and then to look at the
:12:53. > :12:59.International picture. What happens to the 3 million also EU nationals
:13:00. > :13:01.living and working in the UK today? Am very confused by the mixed
:13:02. > :13:12.signals? I meekly in the referendum campaign
:13:13. > :13:17.anyone legally in the UK should have their rights protected. They can
:13:18. > :13:21.stay indefinitely? Those people already here will be able to stay
:13:22. > :13:24.indefinitely? I think as a moral position but also showing good faith
:13:25. > :13:29.in these negotiations. It is absolutely the right thing to do.
:13:30. > :13:35.What do you think of Theresa May's position in moral terms when she
:13:36. > :13:39.refuses to give that guarantee and says, well, our stance will depend
:13:40. > :13:44.on how our nationals are treated in mainland Europe. I think we should
:13:45. > :13:47.fight very hard for our expats and I understand why Theresa May said I
:13:48. > :13:52.would like those issues dealt with. Or she tried to do, what the
:13:53. > :13:56.government did, is go to Brussels and say, why not have an early
:13:57. > :14:00.agreement and push out of their anguish and anxiety European
:14:01. > :14:04.national space in the UK and the EU and remember it was the EU who said
:14:05. > :14:09.we cannot get agreement amongst the other 27 for this. It was them who
:14:10. > :14:13.said it will have to wait until March. We tried to do the right
:14:14. > :14:17.thing. Do you think some Brexit backers, voters in towns like Boston
:14:18. > :14:21.and Lincolnshire, who have consistently according to the polls
:14:22. > :14:25.and anecdotal evidence that their town feels as though they have lost
:14:26. > :14:29.their culture and identity because so many east European farm workers
:14:30. > :14:33.are living in that town, do you think they will feel disappointed,
:14:34. > :14:37.let down, if you are saying to them, actually the status quo as it exists
:14:38. > :14:41.in Boston and Lincolnshire will have to remain? Certainly not with me or
:14:42. > :14:48.any of the people in the Vote Leave campaign because we all said that we
:14:49. > :14:51.didn't think it was right as a basic point of moral ethics to start
:14:52. > :14:55.deporting en masse people who have been here for a long period of time,
:14:56. > :14:59.have played by the rules and worked hard. I think it was clear in terms
:15:00. > :15:04.of what we said during the referendum. It is quite right to try
:15:05. > :15:10.to secure those rights for expats abroad too. Another specific point
:15:11. > :15:12.about hard borders. It seems, the Scottish Nationalists are
:15:13. > :15:16.disappointed with the government stands, that the government isn't
:15:17. > :15:21.interested in discussing with them the idea that Scotland could remain
:15:22. > :15:26.somehow in the single market and in the European customs union. But
:15:27. > :15:31.there is a question of whether in Ireland and possibly Scotland too if
:15:32. > :15:36.they get their way, there would be a hard border between those nations of
:15:37. > :15:42.the United Kingdom and England. Will there be a hard border? Look, in
:15:43. > :15:46.terms of Scotland, it will be icing wrong as a matter of principle and
:15:47. > :15:49.impossible to enforce. In terms of Ireland there is the Common travel
:15:50. > :15:54.area and those arrangements existed before we were members of the EEC as
:15:55. > :15:58.it then was and of course there will be strong bilateral relations to
:15:59. > :16:01.make sure we don't undermine taking back control of our immigration
:16:02. > :16:05.policy but without putting up a hard border between the two. Forgive me
:16:06. > :16:14.but I am not clear, if Ireland is in the single market and customs union
:16:15. > :16:17.and the UK is not, how can there not be a hard border? We will have
:16:18. > :16:21.sensible mutual arrangements which respect both sides of the debate. We
:16:22. > :16:25.had that before we entered the EU so I don't think it is beyond the wit
:16:26. > :16:29.or man -- of man or woman but we won't have a hard border and we said
:16:30. > :16:32.that in the referendum campaign and the government says it now. Equally
:16:33. > :16:36.some of the stuff coming from the SNP is not credible and it is not
:16:37. > :16:40.just the UK government saying that. The EU has said some of the ideas
:16:41. > :16:43.about staying in the single market... We have the referendum as
:16:44. > :16:46.one country and when you do that then you negotiate your
:16:47. > :16:49.international relations as one country. Let's now look at the
:16:50. > :16:54.international context in which it is all taken place. June 23 the British
:16:55. > :16:57.people voted. At the time Barack Obama was president of the Ita
:16:58. > :17:01.states. Of course today Donald Trump is in the White House and noises
:17:02. > :17:04.from the White House are very different. You think it makes sense
:17:05. > :17:10.for Britain to be cutting its bonds and ties with the European Union at
:17:11. > :17:15.a time when the United States is being led by a man who is avowedly
:17:16. > :17:19.and proudly nationalist in his economics and his politics? Well,
:17:20. > :17:23.look, first of all we are not leaving Europe, we are leaving the
:17:24. > :17:27.EU and we want to remain a good European Neymar and from Theresa
:17:28. > :17:31.May's visit to Washington you can see even now have that influence can
:17:32. > :17:40.play out and the opportunity for our European friends, Britain exercising
:17:41. > :17:45.leverage, and you heard her say not being naive about Putin, and
:17:46. > :17:49.standing with Britain behind our Nato commitments, that is a good
:17:50. > :17:54.example, but Britain wants an independent foreign policy and that
:17:55. > :17:57.means... And to be an independent, self-governing democracy, that means
:17:58. > :18:02.independent from the EU but we will have a strong relationship with
:18:03. > :18:08.America, but... Will be? We had a really, really special relationship
:18:09. > :18:13.with Donald Trump's America? She said to Trump, you renew your nation
:18:14. > :18:17.just as we renew ours, the opportunity to renew the special
:18:18. > :18:22.relationship for this age is here, a chance, she said for post-EU Britain
:18:23. > :18:26.and Trump's election to make America to this, this is a quote, lead
:18:27. > :18:30.America again. Do you think that with Britain at this moment in
:18:31. > :18:35.global politics and especially US politics, is in a position and wants
:18:36. > :18:45.to have that special bond with Donald Trump's America? The special
:18:46. > :18:50.relationship endures is bigger than with the White House and with Number
:18:51. > :18:52.Ten, we have trade on values, security, the intelligence
:18:53. > :18:56.relationship and Nato so it is absolutely right we don't throw toys
:18:57. > :18:59.at the pan because of a controversial president. We will
:19:00. > :19:03.double up on engaging. Do you think the public like the fact that when
:19:04. > :19:08.Donald Trump issued this executive order banning incomers from seven
:19:09. > :19:12.mostly Muslim countries, Angela Merkel was on the phone within hours
:19:13. > :19:15.suggesting to the President that this was a big problem and he should
:19:16. > :19:20.remember what international law says. Theresa May, she was asked
:19:21. > :19:25.about it, she obfuscated, she didn't address it directly, she didn't want
:19:26. > :19:30.to condemn the Americans. Do you think the public like where she
:19:31. > :19:34.stands today? If you look at the two days of Theresa May in Washington,
:19:35. > :19:37.yes, we want to grasp the opportunities around free trade and
:19:38. > :19:41.it is great to have a president who want a free trade deal. This is a
:19:42. > :19:44.president who is avowedly protectionist and says everything he
:19:45. > :19:48.does will be about America first. What makes you think Britain can cut
:19:49. > :19:52.a deal when Donald Trump is fanatically in favour of pursuing
:19:53. > :19:57.only America's interest? All the more the coup it was to be in first
:19:58. > :20:01.and get the commitment from him. Sorry, what commitment? The
:20:02. > :20:05.commitment to expedite and have proper working arrangements... On
:20:06. > :20:11.whose terms? Well, it will be... On his terms! Stephen, come on. Have
:20:12. > :20:15.you read the art of the deal? It is all about... I am happy to answer
:20:16. > :20:18.the questions but you have to wait for the answers. It is a good thing.
:20:19. > :20:23.When it comes to delivering difficult measures, Theresa May did
:20:24. > :20:27.it in public on Nato and Russia and when she got home yes there was this
:20:28. > :20:31.furore around the executive order. I think it was divisive and wrong but
:20:32. > :20:36.because she had been for two days in Washington, because we are engaging,
:20:37. > :20:39.Boris Johnson got on the phone and it was clear not just for Britain at
:20:40. > :20:43.40 other countries that dual nationals coming from Britain would
:20:44. > :20:46.be barred from coming to the US and that is serious statesmanship, not
:20:47. > :20:50.throwing up their hands in despair, not flouncing off, the Labour Party
:20:51. > :20:56.position Jeremy Corbyn that we should work or snub Donald Trump but
:20:57. > :20:59.to engage, take advantage of the opportunities and deliver the candid
:21:00. > :21:03.advice of a friend and that is what Theresa May did. In the art of the
:21:04. > :21:07.deal Donald Trump says whether you win or lose in any deal is all about
:21:08. > :21:11.the leverage you have. When you talk about Britain in a post- Brexit
:21:12. > :21:17.future dealing with Donald Trump's America all with Xi Jinping's China
:21:18. > :21:20.or with Narendra Modi's India, all nationalist leaders out to protect
:21:21. > :21:25.their nation's interest, where do you think you leverage is and how
:21:26. > :21:28.much has Britain got? Stephen, he goes again, classic BBC, doing down
:21:29. > :21:30.Britain. LAUGHTER.
:21:31. > :21:35.I am simply asking the question. Sixth biggest military in the world,
:21:36. > :21:40.the common language of business, the birthplace of Shakespeare, Newton,
:21:41. > :21:44.we've got huge things going for us. The network of Commonwealth links
:21:45. > :21:49.we've got. And you are right that we have to go into these negotiations
:21:50. > :21:53.whether with China, Brazil, America, doing what normal countries do, to
:21:54. > :21:57.look after the British national interest but often it will be
:21:58. > :22:00.looking for a win-win. Sorry but I asked how much leverage Britain has
:22:01. > :22:04.and your answer included Shakespeare. I mean, is it... You
:22:05. > :22:09.are asking about Britain as a nation and I wanted to show why we are not
:22:10. > :22:12.down on our luck as you imply and we have huge economic power, military
:22:13. > :22:16.high power and soft power and that is why Shakespeare and language and
:22:17. > :22:20.culture and values comes into it. At the end of the day you are right, we
:22:21. > :22:23.are the fifth biggest economy, not the biggest but free trade is
:22:24. > :22:27.win-win, good for Britain, jobs, cheaper prices and also good for
:22:28. > :22:31.America for the same reasons. And by the way it isn't just about the big
:22:32. > :22:35.countries. What about the global economy, the poorest countries in
:22:36. > :22:39.sub-Saharan Africa? Free trade would give them a lifeline opportunity to
:22:40. > :22:45.gather and gain real genuine independence. It is a great mission
:22:46. > :22:49.for post- Brexit Britain in the 21st century. For all those saying they
:22:50. > :22:55.have to review their plans for the present in the UK... Since Brexit,
:22:56. > :23:01.since the Brexit vote from Dyson to JCB to Apple, Facebook, we've had a
:23:02. > :23:05.whole string of major international companies who have pledged fresh
:23:06. > :23:09.investment into the UK. We had Weet-Bix only this week, I am a big
:23:10. > :23:13.fan of Weet-Bix... It is a really interesting company. They say their
:23:14. > :23:17.prices have come up because of the post- Brexit economic situation and
:23:18. > :23:20.the consumer will have to pay and that is something you are going to
:23:21. > :23:24.have to explain. I will be accountable to my voters in the
:23:25. > :23:28.normal way. Huge opportunities as Mervyn King said to export more for
:23:29. > :23:32.Britain. You are right to say there will be inflationary pressure and we
:23:33. > :23:35.need to look at that and the Bank of England has the tools to keep it
:23:36. > :23:39.under control. Let's be realistic. Inflation is 1.6%. It is well below
:23:40. > :23:48.the Bank of England target rate. I don't think it gives you objective
:23:49. > :23:52.brownies for the pessimism you are expressing. We have to end it there,
:23:53. > :24:07.but Dominic Saab, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.