:00:11. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Donald Trump has wasted
:00:19. > :00:23.little time delivering on his signature campaign promises. He has
:00:24. > :00:30.already ordered the building of "that wall." The US Congress will
:00:31. > :00:35.find it, but ultimately, Donald Trump says Mexico will pay. My guest
:00:36. > :00:41.today is the former Mexican president Vicente Fox whose
:00:42. > :00:48.expletive filled tweets to Donald Trump have caused a storm on social
:00:49. > :01:15.media. Can Mexico afford to tango with Donald Trump?
:01:16. > :01:26.Vicente Fox in Mexico, welcome to HARDtalk what a pleasure. Hello,
:01:27. > :01:34.Europe, hello London, fellow Briton. Well, hello to you. Here is a
:01:35. > :01:43.question, how badly does Mexico need a good working relationship with any
:01:44. > :01:50.US president? I think a good relationship is always important and
:01:51. > :01:56.is strategic for any nation and any economy when you were dealing with
:01:57. > :02:01.the most powerful, the largest economic, marketing the world. So it
:02:02. > :02:08.is important. Very important. But sometimes you cannot take your own
:02:09. > :02:12.decisions. All of a sudden appears Donald Trump. He is disrupting
:02:13. > :02:18.everything, and not for the better, but for the worse, with Europe, with
:02:19. > :02:25.Mexico, with Latin America, with the Muslim world, with China. He is
:02:26. > :02:29.willing to fight with everybody. He will never win against the world.
:02:30. > :02:33.Yeah, but he has only been in office for two weeks. And you have taken
:02:34. > :02:38.the decision many months ago when he was still on the campaign trail to
:02:39. > :02:43.antagonise him and take him on as much as you can. And in so far as
:02:44. > :02:51.you are an extraordinarily powerful voice in Mexico, a former president,
:02:52. > :02:56.do you think that was wise? Well, we have three issues that have to do
:02:57. > :03:13.with Mexico and the United States and their relationship. Start with
:03:14. > :03:16.the wall. He can build as many walls as he wants, he can enclose that
:03:17. > :03:20.little nation behind four walls because of fear and because of his
:03:21. > :03:24.crazy ideas, but what he will never ever attain is Mexico paying for the
:03:25. > :03:27.wall. That is a different thing. That has to do with sovereignty,
:03:28. > :03:32.that has to do with dignity, that has to do with pride. So, President
:03:33. > :03:38.Enrique Pena Nieto has stated very clearly on the name of 120 million
:03:39. > :03:44.Mexicans, we are not paying for that stupid wall that he wants to build.
:03:45. > :03:51.Builder did you want with US taxpayer money. That is the only
:03:52. > :03:55.source of money he might get. -- build it if you want. He is not even
:03:56. > :03:58.sure he will get it because many Republicans do not agree with him.
:03:59. > :04:03.Many state governments do not agree with him. Because all of them lived
:04:04. > :04:12.out of the trading that we have through Nafta. Mexico and the United
:04:13. > :04:21.States. Let me. Right there. That is a very powerful statement that you
:04:22. > :04:27.have just made. They are all ways to make Mexico pay. He has to get the
:04:28. > :04:33.wall built with Congress funds, but he will put tariffs are new, he said
:04:34. > :04:39.20% may be. He will charge you more to send remittances back home. He
:04:40. > :04:47.will find ways to make the Mexican people pay for his wall. Let me tell
:04:48. > :04:58.you. Every action has a reaction. If he taxes imports to the United
:04:59. > :05:03.States coming from Mexico, we will tax exports of the United States to
:05:04. > :05:10.Mexico. As you know, we have an even situation on trading. We sell every
:05:11. > :05:17.year to the United States was to 300 billion US dollars' worth of goods
:05:18. > :05:23.and products. And they sell to Mexico almost the equivalent amount.
:05:24. > :05:30.So nobody will win in a trade war. Everybody will lose, starting with
:05:31. > :05:35.the US consumer, that will have to pay 20% more for the car he is
:05:36. > :05:41.buying, 20% more for the guacamole that he is buying, 20% more for the
:05:42. > :05:46.tequila that he is buying... I dare say that Americans can live with a
:05:47. > :05:52.little less guacamole and a little less tequila. But the fact is your
:05:53. > :05:56.economy is per capita more dependent on your trading relationship with
:05:57. > :06:07.the United States than the United States is on you. So when it comes
:06:08. > :06:10.down to that raw things about leverage, the US has the leverage,
:06:11. > :06:15.you don't. You are right. We all lose. But look at this We have a
:06:16. > :06:18.trade agreement with Europe. We have a trade agreement with Britain, is
:06:19. > :06:23.leading with the European Union. If Britain gets out, still we can put
:06:24. > :06:31.together a trade agreement. And let me tell you, the European Union
:06:32. > :06:38.market is 500 million people. The US market is 300 million people. The
:06:39. > :06:41.gross product of the union, the European Union, altogether is larger
:06:42. > :06:47.than the gross product of the United States. So we just have to look to
:06:48. > :06:51.outside. We have a trade agreement with Asia, we have a trade agreement
:06:52. > :06:56.with Latin America are. So many Mexico is the economy that has more
:06:57. > :07:01.trade agreements than anyone else. We don't want to lose the market of
:07:02. > :07:26.the United States. But if this crazy died, -- guy, Trump, goes for his
:07:27. > :07:31.will, not those of the Americans, he will sacrifice the well-being of
:07:32. > :07:34.Americans. The geography of this is simple. You and the United States
:07:35. > :07:38.will be locked together forever whether you like it or not. I come
:07:39. > :07:43.back to the theme of political wisdom. Is it wise for you to use
:07:44. > :07:49.those words you have outlined, and that other words, the "F" word,
:07:50. > :07:54.would you have used about your refusal to pay for the wall, there
:07:55. > :07:58.is something about using the appropriate tone and establishing a
:07:59. > :08:04.dialogue. It seems to me that you read your attitude to Donald Trump
:08:05. > :08:10.are making dialogue impossible. -- with. Yes. If he wants to respect,
:08:11. > :08:17.he has to start respecting others. He has not shown that. And my worry
:08:18. > :08:22.is that President Pena does not have enough courage to stand against him
:08:23. > :08:28.like we did when we nationalised the oil 100 years ago. Like Mexico did
:08:29. > :08:35.when we were invaded by their army. He is saying, he proposed to Pena,
:08:36. > :08:42.that he is willing to send the US Army. Go to hell, Trump. Mexico does
:08:43. > :08:46.not admit in its territory by Constitution any armies from
:08:47. > :08:51.anywhere in the world. Use your army, Donald Trump, tothe
:08:52. > :08:57.consumption of drugs, to stop drugs circulating all over the United
:08:58. > :09:01.States every day. In every single corner of the United States there is
:09:02. > :09:14.drug consumption. And he complains about Mexico. Why doesn't he stopped
:09:15. > :09:22.drug -- stop drugs circulating in his own country? Where is the DEA,
:09:23. > :09:28.the FBI, the CIA? We will get to that. One more word about Donald
:09:29. > :09:32.Trump. You said this to a TV network in relation to Donald Trump a few
:09:33. > :09:36.days ago. When I saw today's gathering of the Republican Party in
:09:37. > :09:43.their retreat with Donald Trump in the middle, it reminded me of Hitler
:09:44. > :09:46.addressing the Nazi Party. That is extreme language. Are you saying
:09:47. > :09:51.that apart from anything else, Donald Trump is an out and out races
:09:52. > :10:00.when it comes to Mexicans and Mexico? Absolutely is. -- racist.
:10:01. > :10:09.Let us not laying him, let us blame his followers, like the Nazi party.
:10:10. > :10:21.-- blame. The Republican Party, they follow him blindly. They do not
:10:22. > :10:24.question him. Vicente Fox, you cannot bandy around this word
:10:25. > :10:30.lightly. We know what they were responsible for in the 1930s and
:10:31. > :10:34.40s. Donald Trump, the many millions that elected him to the office of
:10:35. > :10:47.the United States, you cannot, surely, you cannot label them Nazis.
:10:48. > :10:52.Excuse me. Excuse me. Congressmen, a Member of Parliament in England,
:10:53. > :10:57.they are elected by people to serve the people in any democracy, not
:10:58. > :11:04.deserve his political party. That is what I think is blind on the side of
:11:05. > :11:09.Congress, men and senators of the Republican Party in the United
:11:10. > :11:13.States. You do not follow a false prophet when he is taking you to the
:11:14. > :11:17.desert. You think on your own and you make your own free decisions.
:11:18. > :11:24.And that is what I was referring to in my comment. Just... I want to
:11:25. > :11:27.move on. I want to think specifically now about the
:11:28. > :11:32.immigration issue which of course Donald Trump campaigned on and one
:11:33. > :11:36.millions of votes on securing the US border. We have talked about the
:11:37. > :11:42.wall he wants to build, but isn't there a fundamental hypocrisy in
:11:43. > :11:47.Mexico. When you criticised his plan to secure America's border with
:11:48. > :11:50.Mexico, you in your country have consistently under your leadership
:11:51. > :11:54.and other presidents as well failed to secure your southern border, with
:11:55. > :11:58.the result that hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans from
:11:59. > :12:02.Central America come into Mexico, many of them wanting to get into the
:12:03. > :12:13.United States, and exacerbating the immigration problem. It is tiny
:12:14. > :12:16.sorted out your own water security. False, false, and true statements
:12:17. > :12:22.you are mentioning. Let me go one by one. Number one, we want a secure
:12:23. > :12:26.border. We Mexicans want a secure border, the same as the United
:12:27. > :12:31.States and their citizens. But not the way he is trying to do it. The
:12:32. > :12:35.wall, let him build whatever wall he wants the. If he wants to construct
:12:36. > :12:42.a useless wall like the Chinese people did against their enemies,
:12:43. > :12:49.the Mongols, it did not work. They jumped the wall, they invader China,
:12:50. > :12:55.they conquered China. It happened very close to Britain. That war
:12:56. > :13:02.could not retain anybody away from freedom. That had to be torn down.
:13:03. > :13:08.If he wants to build a wall, it is already there are. But today we do
:13:09. > :13:15.not use the stick, we use intelligence, we use wisdom, we use
:13:16. > :13:20.negotiation, we use, like you say, speaking to each other. But when he
:13:21. > :13:23.uses a stick like the old US empire, imposing their will in the world,
:13:24. > :13:30.putting in and taking out governments, that cannot be the
:13:31. > :13:36.future. I understand. You have pretty Donald Trump during this
:13:37. > :13:43.interview, but I am asking you to critique yourself. -- critiqued. Let
:13:44. > :13:46.us look to the south. One of the reasons the migration problem is so
:13:47. > :13:51.profound is because you guys are now quoting the Washington office of
:13:52. > :13:55.Latin American studies. They are saying that your hardline policies
:13:56. > :14:01.on migration issues in the south of your country have risen consistently
:14:02. > :14:05.ineffective in deterring immigration. -- proven. They have
:14:06. > :14:09.violated human rights and have brought about abuse and violence.
:14:10. > :14:11.That is on you and Mexico. It is nothing to do with Donald Trump in
:14:12. > :14:23.the United States. will ship let me criticise myself and
:14:24. > :14:28.criticise Mexico. We have compassion. Like Europe is showing
:14:29. > :14:32.today. When there are people suffering, when there are people
:14:33. > :14:36.running away from violence, like the Syrians, you use your compassion and
:14:37. > :14:40.share it with others. That is the way we think in Mexico. We do not
:14:41. > :14:45.use a stick. We are not only up to money and economic growth. We
:14:46. > :14:58.consider the human side of people because of humanity, and listen. He
:14:59. > :15:03.just said, the world does not belong, it belongs to she manatee,
:15:04. > :15:07.it is not belong to Trump and United States. Nations belong to citizens.
:15:08. > :15:13.Our border in the south is not what it should be because there is
:15:14. > :15:16.hunger, there is poverty. There are also abuses, systemic abuses carried
:15:17. > :15:23.out by your security forces and there is corruption. Calls. All that
:15:24. > :15:27.comes from Maureen Meyer who has researched this from the Washington
:15:28. > :15:34.office of Latin America. Mexico has a problem, would you agree? If we
:15:35. > :15:38.have a problem, we have to correct them. But that does not give Trump
:15:39. > :15:45.the right to intervene in our internal public policies. That does
:15:46. > :15:49.not give him the right to treat inhumanely most people from anywhere
:15:50. > :15:53.of the world. Mexico has to correct, yes, the problem of drugs and
:15:54. > :15:56.violence and we are going to legalise drug consumption so that we
:15:57. > :16:00.take away the money from the cartels. By the way, money that
:16:01. > :16:05.comes from the United States consumption. Number two, we have to
:16:06. > :16:11.move the economy, to recreate jobs, to create opportunities which we are
:16:12. > :16:16.doing now. In my part of Mexico, we are full employment right now, full
:16:17. > :16:20.employment and salary is going up so we are doing our work. It's not as
:16:21. > :16:26.we wish, we wish we could do more but again, I think it is, it's a
:16:27. > :16:31.threat that we have and it's a dangerous threat. You have talked
:16:32. > :16:35.about the drugs problem quite a lot in this interview so let's get down
:16:36. > :16:39.into it in specifics right now. I've been in your country before and came
:16:40. > :16:45.not so long ago, quite a number of years ago now, to interview
:16:46. > :16:50.President Calderon. He declared a total and complete war on the
:16:51. > :16:54.cartels and the drug lords. That failed. We have president Pena Nieto
:16:55. > :16:59.who has taken a different approach and that has failed as well. We have
:17:00. > :17:05.seen the violence rise again. 90% of all the drugs, serious drugs that
:17:06. > :17:08.which United States go through Mexico are produced in Mexico
:17:09. > :17:13.because production in your country is on the rise as well. Everything
:17:14. > :17:17.that you have done, and am talking about you yourself and your
:17:18. > :17:23.successors, has completely failed to stop the flow of drugs from your
:17:24. > :17:32.country into the United States and again, that is new. Yes. Yes, yes.
:17:33. > :17:36.That is why we will legalise, same as United States is doing, because
:17:37. > :17:42.we are fighting a war against drugs which is not ours. I ask you and I
:17:43. > :17:50.ask Trump and I ask American people, what happens once those words of
:17:51. > :17:55.drugs across the border? Where are the US authorities? Where is the
:17:56. > :18:02.army? They do the consumption, they are happy consuming and we pay in
:18:03. > :18:06.blood. 160,000 kids have died on President Calderon's Administration
:18:07. > :18:15.and on Pena Nieto's administration. 160,000 kids. They did not have
:18:16. > :18:22.criminality in their genes. And yet they joined the cartels. That is a
:18:23. > :18:26.tragedy, Mr Fox. It is a tragedy. So do you think legalising cocaine and
:18:27. > :18:29.heroin and methamphetamines, all of which are now manufactured in
:18:30. > :18:36.Mexico, is going to solve the problem? Take away the manufacturing
:18:37. > :18:42.in Mexico. Most of them comes from the south in transit to the north.
:18:43. > :18:49.But some is now being made in Mexico. Anyway, anyway let's discuss
:18:50. > :18:55.the issue. Portugal legalise all drugs and it's working. The State of
:18:56. > :18:59.Colorado and Washington and California, they have legalised
:19:00. > :19:03.marijuana consumption. The State of Israel is now producing marijuana
:19:04. > :19:08.and claiming they have the best marijuana in the world and they
:19:09. > :19:18.are... We're not talking marijuana here. We're not talking here. I am
:19:19. > :19:23.full legalisation of all drugs. We human beings should be responsible
:19:24. > :19:27.for our own health and that is why the world has come to accept
:19:28. > :19:32.abortion and marriages of different sexes because we are and have to be
:19:33. > :19:38.responsible for our own behaviour. The State, governments, will never
:19:39. > :19:42.solve that problem from us. It is a promise that has never been complied
:19:43. > :19:50.with. 40 years ago, President Nixon launched the global war on drugs.
:19:51. > :19:55.What happened? Total failure. Consumption goes up and up and yes,
:19:56. > :20:02.we have to correct things in Mexico. We are not happy with what we have
:20:03. > :20:08.but again, that doesn't give Trump the possibility for the prerogative
:20:09. > :20:16.or speaking so many stupid things during modern single day. -- during
:20:17. > :20:21.one single day. I have to turn to Mexican politics. President Pena
:20:22. > :20:23.Nieto has an approval rating of 12%, deeply, deeply unpopular. It looks
:20:24. > :20:31.like the most convincing candidate to take the presidency may be Mr
:20:32. > :20:36.Obrador. You have had a long experience with him. You try to stop
:20:37. > :20:40.him running for president in 2006. He almost won. He looks like the
:20:41. > :20:46.populist leftist who could learn something from Trump and make
:20:47. > :20:53.Mexican politics much more populist. Are you worried about that?
:20:54. > :21:02.Absolutely, yes. Please. We do not want Obrador here. We could see Hugo
:21:03. > :21:09.Chavez, Castro, the rest of the gang here in Latin America. Populism
:21:10. > :21:13.doesn't work. But Mr Fox, my point is, your language on Trump, you are
:21:14. > :21:19.talking the same sort of populism that Obrador is talking. Pena Nieto
:21:20. > :21:24.is cautious to criticise Trump. The only people in Mexico who go up to
:21:25. > :21:32.Trump are you and Obrador so you are playing into his hands. I have
:21:33. > :21:37.tweets about 28 million people so people are listening. People are
:21:38. > :21:41.coming out to the streets, people are manifesting themselves. It is
:21:42. > :21:45.not me. It is the people that are decent, that work hard, but are
:21:46. > :21:51.trying to build a future that understand how trade and government
:21:52. > :21:58.works, that the stupid war on drugs, that we need to do a lot of things
:21:59. > :22:04.but Lopez Obrador is not the solution to Mexico's problems. He
:22:05. > :22:09.will get us into the same disorder that is happening. They don't have
:22:10. > :22:16.food to eat Right now. That is populism. That is demagoguery. That
:22:17. > :22:20.is the extreme left. And I hope Britain, unfortunately the United
:22:21. > :22:26.States now moved into populism, and false promises with this false
:22:27. > :22:31.prophet that is Trump. I want for my country, the good governance with
:22:32. > :22:38.honesty, with honour ability, with the capacity and let's see what
:22:39. > :22:42.Mexican people decide, is on their hands to decide. Isn't the bottom
:22:43. > :22:47.line in all of this conversation that you may wish to Trump weren't
:22:48. > :22:51.in power but the fact is, the use and the United States, in its
:22:52. > :22:56.relationship with Mexico, does hold pretty much all the cards. So what
:22:57. > :23:00.you say on Twitter and everything else, the Mexican government will
:23:01. > :23:05.have to find a practical way of working with Trump? Sure. Sure,
:23:06. > :23:15.that's a conclusion that is mistaken. The plans of Ford, the
:23:16. > :23:21.motor Co, Chrysler and GM are here in Mexico. They are not going to
:23:22. > :23:26.take them away. If they want a car, let them do. Ford has decided not to
:23:27. > :23:31.build a new plant in Mexico. You know that. Ford has decided to
:23:32. > :23:36.cancel its plans for a new plant in Mexico. I know that. I know, and
:23:37. > :23:41.they are getting now a boycott. They are not selling the amount of cars
:23:42. > :23:45.they used to be selling in Mexico. Governments have cancelled orders,
:23:46. > :23:49.consumers have cancelled orders for Ford Motor Company survey the better
:23:50. > :23:54.think about what they win and lose by following a false prophet. They
:23:55. > :23:58.are going to be losing a lot of money and a lot of markets in the
:23:59. > :24:04.world if they keep listening and following blindly Donald Trump.
:24:05. > :24:08.Vicente Fox, we had to end there but I thank you very much for joining me
:24:09. > :24:16.from central Mexico, thank you very much indeed. Stephen, a pleasure.
:24:17. > :24:37.Here is your home and the home of every Briton. Thank you.
:24:38. > :24:42.Well, for some of us on Tuesday it felt quite springlike.
:24:43. > :24:44.For others, though, it was distinctly wintry,
:24:45. > :24:48.with some snow up over the higher ground of Scotland in particular.