:00:00. > :00:14.It is time now for HARDtalk Welcome to HARDtalk I am Stephen Sackur.
:00:15. > :00:19.With so much focus on America's new president, it is easy to forget that
:00:20. > :00:23.Europe is facing its own period of prolonged uncertainty. Brexit
:00:24. > :00:29.negotiations are about to begin, the Greek debt crisis is going through
:00:30. > :00:35.another convulsion, and it is a dear of key elections, most particularly
:00:36. > :00:44.in the continent's dominant economy, Germany. My guest is Jens Spahn. He
:00:45. > :01:09.is a rising star in Germany. Will German politics reshape Europe?
:01:10. > :01:18.Jens Spahn in Berlin, welcome to HARDtalk Good evening Stephen and
:01:19. > :01:23.London. It is good to see you. We start with trans-Atlantic relations
:01:24. > :01:28.as seen from Berlin. I think we have two start with the impact of Donald
:01:29. > :01:34.Trump. How would you say Germany perceives Donald Trump's
:01:35. > :01:39.administration right now? Well, let's said that the way the
:01:40. > :01:44.President is using Twitter and talking is very unusual for Germans.
:01:45. > :01:48.We are not used to that, but nevertheless, I think when it comes
:01:49. > :01:52.to the issues he brings to the table, and the administration brings
:01:53. > :01:56.the table, when it comes to Nato, the question if we do enough here in
:01:57. > :02:00.Europe for our own defence, when it comes to trade, for example trade
:02:01. > :02:04.with China, where the issues to. We just had this argument with the
:02:05. > :02:09.steel union of Europe and China. When it comes to Syria, there are
:02:10. > :02:13.issues we can work on together. And I want to focus on those things
:02:14. > :02:17.where we can work on them together, not just do all these historical
:02:18. > :02:22.things we have seen in the past days. -- hysterical. I do want to be
:02:23. > :02:25.hysterical, but I don't just want to focus on what you have outlined,
:02:26. > :02:29.either. I want to focus on what Donald Trump a Europe. He said
:02:30. > :02:33.Brexit was the start of something bigger and that other nations would
:02:34. > :02:36.be the European Union. And he clearly left the impression that he
:02:37. > :02:43.does not have much time to the European Union. Well, I would say it
:02:44. > :02:47.is up to the European Union, now, to grow up. We have two learn,
:02:48. > :02:52.obviously, that we have to do our things on our own, but I do hope
:02:53. > :02:57.that from sentences like this and the opinion that seems to be there -
:02:58. > :03:01.and by the way, it is not a new opinion, and new things that we hear
:03:02. > :03:06.from our American friends when it comes to the European Union... No,
:03:07. > :03:11.on the contrary, it is very new. I've spoken to many of Barack
:03:12. > :03:17.Obama's advisers and their message was clear. They wanted to deal with
:03:18. > :03:19.a deterrent, and unified European Union. They wanted a Trans-Atlantic
:03:20. > :03:29.Trade and Investment Partnership. These so-called TTIP deal. That is
:03:30. > :03:34.what I meant. We obviously need to be a strong Europe. So we need to
:03:35. > :03:37.bring up these issues. A defence union, for example. We talked about
:03:38. > :03:42.it for decades, but nothing as happened. Now, finally, we take the
:03:43. > :03:47.first concrete steps to build up something, new agencies, and we are
:03:48. > :03:52.working together on this error. All when it comes to trade, for months,
:03:53. > :04:00.if not years, we have seen many people demonstrating against TTIP.
:04:01. > :04:03.And we had all sorts of other problems with other arrangements.
:04:04. > :04:07.And free trade is important for the European Union and we need to be
:04:08. > :04:12.strong on that. But I meant by growing up, we need to learn as a
:04:13. > :04:16.union to stand on our own feet. And I think that is what is changing in
:04:17. > :04:21.the transatlantic partnership. Of course, the United states is our
:04:22. > :04:25.most important ally in the world. The transatlantic partnership is
:04:26. > :04:32.important for us. -- United States. But the ute, a European Union needs
:04:33. > :04:39.to grow up and become stronger. -- but the European Union. Donald Trump
:04:40. > :04:44.is in America first guy. And he is not for free trade. Even in his
:04:45. > :04:49.inauguration address, he used were protection. We know he's going to do
:04:50. > :04:53.what it takes to change the trade dynamic between countries like he
:04:54. > :04:59.and yours. And when he looks at your trading surplus, which in 2015 was a
:05:00. > :05:05.staggering 250 billion euros, he sees a country, Germany, which in
:05:06. > :05:09.his view is operating under fairly. What is unfair about our exports of
:05:10. > :05:13.cars to the United States? That is a question we have to raise. On the
:05:14. > :05:17.other hand, I don't have any German mobile left. We buy those from other
:05:18. > :05:22.countries. We are not just one of the biggest exporters, but the third
:05:23. > :05:27.biggest importer, as well. If you believe in free trade, you need to
:05:28. > :05:35.make sure it is to the benefit of all. It is a America for us, -- if
:05:36. > :05:39.it is America first, we must be German first. We have worked well
:05:40. > :05:45.with our neighbours and other partners. We need to make America
:05:46. > :05:49.first also mean working together and trading together for both sides.
:05:50. > :05:55.That is what it is about. And by the way, the only government, or one of
:05:56. > :05:59.the only ones in the European Union that is actually asking the European
:06:00. > :06:05.Central Bank to think about the low interest rates is the German one. It
:06:06. > :06:09.is interesting to me that in the course of this conversation, you
:06:10. > :06:13.have steadfastly refused to criticise Donald Trump in any
:06:14. > :06:18.meaningful way at all. And yet in German politics, the SPD, your rival
:06:19. > :06:22.for power, the centre-left party, is now led by a man who has made no
:06:23. > :06:27.bones about his very strong criticisms of Donald Trump. It is
:06:28. > :06:33.interesting that Michael Schultz, in Germany, is doing very well in the
:06:34. > :06:36.polls. It may be that your caution and Angela Merkel's caution about
:06:37. > :06:42.Donald Trump is not to serve you well in German politics. Ozil, I
:06:43. > :06:47.don't believe that this issue, the American issue, to call it that way,
:06:48. > :06:54.is the most important thing when it comes to the people who vote. --
:06:55. > :07:00.first of all, I don't believe. But if you are just a party German late
:07:01. > :07:03.Mr Schultz, that this is a big issue. But like asset, a United
:07:04. > :07:11.States are one of the important allies. Of course it is important...
:07:12. > :07:15.You cannot keep saying that, at Jens Spahn, when the United States is led
:07:16. > :07:19.by a man who in so many different ways, whether it is on the European
:07:20. > :07:25.Union, Nato, or free trade, or human rights issues, is doing things
:07:26. > :07:28.counter to what German... But Stephen, do you think it makes
:07:29. > :07:33.things better to start insulting each other? We are doing that right
:07:34. > :07:38.now. I believe in working together. This new administration is just an
:07:39. > :07:42.office for some few weeks. And everyone in Germany and Europe seems
:07:43. > :07:49.to know already what all this is about. I want to talk to people
:07:50. > :07:53.first, before I come to final conclusions. And so, actually, what
:07:54. > :07:57.we try to build up is personal relations with our partners on the
:07:58. > :08:01.other side. Of course, we do say what we like and do not like, but I
:08:02. > :08:06.prefer to start doing that in personal talks, not in front of the
:08:07. > :08:11.media. But private people do at the media does. What a party German late
:08:12. > :08:17.Mr Michael Shaw stars, that is up to them. But for a government, it is a
:08:18. > :08:20.responsible position to say we want to speak to our partners in
:08:21. > :08:25.Washington first of all, and the other side had made that clear. But
:08:26. > :08:30.we have explained that there is a difference between the current
:08:31. > :08:35.situation with China and Europe. So we just don't let it happen. We
:08:36. > :08:41.comment on that, but in a way that I think is a very responsible way. OK.
:08:42. > :08:44.In my introduction, I spoke about uncertainty. I think it is fair to
:08:45. > :08:47.say that there is more uncertainty about German politics than we
:08:48. > :08:51.thought they would have been, six Muzza go. As I mentioned, the
:08:52. > :08:59.opinion polls have changed. For the first time, just a few days ago, we
:09:00. > :09:04.saw Martin Schultz and had over Angela Merkel. Why do you think the
:09:05. > :09:12.political mood is changing and running counter to the interests of
:09:13. > :09:16.your party, the CDU? The Social Democrats in Germany have the
:09:17. > :09:27.momentum of the new kids on the block. And nobody knows Mr Schultz.
:09:28. > :09:30.And his position on many issues like immigration and security, like
:09:31. > :09:34.social issues are unknown. So this debate is about to start. What we
:09:35. > :09:37.see is that a party like the Social Democrats, that have actually been
:09:38. > :09:42.in a kind of political depression in the past decades, all past years,
:09:43. > :09:48.that's say, where they had no chance, actually to win any national
:09:49. > :09:53.election, for the first time, they get a slight feeling that they might
:09:54. > :09:57.have a chance, this time will stop at of course, that sets freed some
:09:58. > :10:04.energy. And that is our policy right now. And that shows, as well, by the
:10:05. > :10:08.way, as a Christian Democrat, that our party, the Chancellor's party,
:10:09. > :10:14.this campaign will be different to the campaign that we have seen four
:10:15. > :10:18.years ago. It will be about content much more than the last one.
:10:19. > :10:22.Everyone actually feels, right now, it is about the future of Europe,
:10:23. > :10:29.about the future of our country, about the future of our actually
:10:30. > :10:33.uniting or dis- uniting our society with the migrants and refugees that
:10:34. > :10:40.have just come in. And we'll want to make this one a more amazing
:10:41. > :10:44.campaign in the last one. Angela Merkel said it will be the hardest
:10:45. > :10:49.ever. And it may be one of the hardest, if not the hardest ever,
:10:50. > :10:52.because you have created some problems for her. When you have
:10:53. > :10:55.spoken about her handling of the migration challenge and her decision
:10:56. > :10:59.to say we can manage, our borders are open, and letting in many more
:11:00. > :11:04.than 1 million migrants over the past couple of years. You have
:11:05. > :11:09.commented on that, suggesting it was a mistake. You Eddie Izzard a book
:11:10. > :11:13.that describe the influx as a failure of the state. You said the
:11:14. > :11:19.border cannot be secured. Law cannot be enforced and thousands of
:11:20. > :11:23.applications cannot be processed. So if you, yourself, have pointed out
:11:24. > :11:28.Angela Merkel and said you made a terrible mistake, and the German
:11:29. > :11:34.people have read what you have said. No, no, no, I never said. I.e.
:11:35. > :11:37.Describe the situation in my book, from November 2015, I described the
:11:38. > :11:44.situation we had in Germany. And obviously in Europe. In some parts
:11:45. > :11:50.we are still not able to secure our border. That is busily what we need
:11:51. > :11:57.to do. And nobody was prepared, not in Germany, Berlin, Europe, anywhere
:11:58. > :12:01.on what has happened. Donald Trump called it a catastrophic mistake on
:12:02. > :12:05.the part of Angela Merkel. And the German people are not going to
:12:06. > :12:09.forget that. You know what is actually the catastrophic mistake?
:12:10. > :12:14.We have made it as a European Union as a whole. The
:12:15. > :12:21.-- the Holden Schengen treaty. The freedom of movement throughout
:12:22. > :12:28.Europe. -- the whole Schengen treaty. Only if we are willing to
:12:29. > :12:31.secure our borders. We were not able to protect our borders, the
:12:32. > :12:36.Mediterranean Sea. That is what the last summit was about. We had to
:12:37. > :12:39.regain control and we have regained a lot of control already, but not
:12:40. > :12:43.yet everything that needs to beat at. That is actually a debate that
:12:44. > :12:49.is to be done. I think is something like that is happening, like we have
:12:50. > :12:55.seen in the past two years, with the migrants coming into Europe, then it
:12:56. > :12:59.is quite normal that you have eight controversial debate in society and
:13:00. > :13:03.in the party. And I do see a controversial debate in the party if
:13:04. > :13:06.you do at the right way, and with good arguments, and that is what we
:13:07. > :13:12.did in the Christian Democratic Party in Germany. The reality is
:13:13. > :13:15.that we are just two months on from a terrible terror attack at the
:13:16. > :13:19.Christmas market in Berlin that turned out to be the work of a
:13:20. > :13:23.Tunisian individual. The German and author of his were aware of him and
:13:24. > :13:27.he was legally in the country, but Gemma could not figure out how to
:13:28. > :13:31.deport him. And that makes political capital for rival parties such as
:13:32. > :13:35.the far right AFD movement in your country, who say, and I quote a
:13:36. > :13:39.recent leadership quote, we cannot go on denying that there is a leg
:13:40. > :13:43.between Angela Merkel's migration policy and these attacks, or we will
:13:44. > :13:47.simply prepared the ground for more of the same attacks. That is the
:13:48. > :13:54.political climate today to your party. World political climate in
:13:55. > :13:58.Germany is more polarised than it has been for many years. That is for
:13:59. > :14:04.sure. And I think that is quite normal, actually, after this
:14:05. > :14:08.situation we have seen in the autumn of 2015. We have never had a
:14:09. > :14:11.situation like this before in the European Union or in Germany. Now it
:14:12. > :14:16.is about regaining control. Now it is about discussing security issues,
:14:17. > :14:23.of course fighting terrorism, and we have had terror attacks before this
:14:24. > :14:26.refugee influx of the past months. But it is about screening people who
:14:27. > :14:34.are coming to the European Union. By the way, the terrorists of Berlin
:14:35. > :14:39.actually was a let out of a Greek prison too early. -- terrorist. So
:14:40. > :14:43.we need to find a European solution on this. And I find quite normal
:14:44. > :14:48.that you have controversial debates about this in a society and in an
:14:49. > :14:52.upcoming campaign, and because this is not an average issue, that is a
:14:53. > :15:00.fundamental question of the future of society and of Europe. But by
:15:01. > :15:07.Is that why you are pandering to the far right for taking on, for
:15:08. > :15:17.example, the issue of the burqa in Germany and describing yourself as
:15:18. > :15:31.burqa phobic? When I grew up, fighting for the rights of women was
:15:32. > :15:40.a left thing. It is a reactionary conservative religious approach that
:15:41. > :15:45.women are forced... Wait a minute... Sorry, since I heard that all the
:15:46. > :15:50.time. Since when are fighting for the rights of women and the equality
:15:51. > :15:55.of men and women, since when is that a very right wing approach? That is
:15:56. > :16:03.new to me. It used to be a left approach. Every academic... We have
:16:04. > :16:10.to fight for these women's rights. We have so many women in Germany
:16:11. > :16:17.everyday. A strange issue for you to fight on. If I criticise it, if I
:16:18. > :16:21.have done last weekend, people, he right wing. It used to be a very
:16:22. > :16:25.liberal approach and I keep on saying that. It is a strange issue
:16:26. > :16:28.for you to fight on. Every economic analysis tells us that there are
:16:29. > :16:33.only a few hundred women in the whole of Germany that where the
:16:34. > :16:36.burqa. It is a very, very small issue that you have chosen to make
:16:37. > :16:42.into a big political issue. Also, what if these women actually want to
:16:43. > :16:48.wear the burqa? Where do you stand on the women's rights then?
:16:49. > :16:53.Actually, a woman that wants to wear at burqa might be wrong in our
:16:54. > :16:57.society. This are open deliberate societies. Every day, I might see
:16:58. > :17:01.people I might not like and that is a normal, that is an open society.
:17:02. > :17:07.How would this interview P, Stephen, if the two of us were covered on our
:17:08. > :17:13.faces discussing these issues? This is not our open, liberal society.
:17:14. > :17:17.This is not our Western world. You might call it a symbolic debate.
:17:18. > :17:23.Yes, it is symbolic. It is symbolic about the issue of whether we're
:17:24. > :17:27.willing to stand for our rights, values and principles. There are so
:17:28. > :17:34.many women, actually, affected. I say it so much here in Germany. Not
:17:35. > :17:37.by burqa only at why their fathers choosing the men who they have to
:17:38. > :17:46.marry. Little girls are not allowed to go to swimming lessons are close
:17:47. > :17:51.of so-called religious reasons. We have two do this fight and to stand
:17:52. > :18:00.up for our values. This is about culture, by the way. So practically
:18:01. > :18:04.speaking, we know that you want to ban the burqa in Germany but there
:18:05. > :18:08.is a bigger issue on what you do with those whose asylum claims fail
:18:09. > :18:12.and you don't know where to put them. Angela Merkel has said in
:18:13. > :18:17.recent days and again this might be political but she said it is about
:18:18. > :18:22.repatriation, repatriation and more repatriations. What are you going to
:18:23. > :18:25.do, are you going to send tens and possibly thousands of people to
:18:26. > :18:29.Greece which is already struggling to cope with the tens of thousands
:18:30. > :18:33.of people it has in refugee camps already, you are going to send them
:18:34. > :18:40.back to grief because that was their first port of entry into the
:18:41. > :18:44.European Union? It's not about sending them back to Greece. It is
:18:45. > :18:48.about sending them back to their home countries, Morocco, Tunisia and
:18:49. > :18:52.Algeria. As was the case with the market... It that is why we are
:18:53. > :19:03.negotiating with these countries. Less than 1% of asylum seekers are
:19:04. > :19:06.from these countries and are recognised and refugees. Many of
:19:07. > :19:12.them come for understandable reasons but not for reasons that make them a
:19:13. > :19:22.refugee because of the Geneva convention. The summit was about
:19:23. > :19:31.this. The people we rescue for the Mediterranean Sea, we need to bring
:19:32. > :19:35.them back to the coast from which they came. We need to give them
:19:36. > :19:39.shelter and food and all the other stuff and within weeks, these
:19:40. > :19:44.smuggler business will be ended and the dying in the Mediterranean Sea
:19:45. > :19:48.as well. We have two actually make clear, yes, refugees from Syria and
:19:49. > :19:52.Iraq, there is a chance to be in the European Union. There is a chance to
:19:53. > :19:57.be in Germany, we want to help them. But the people that come from other
:19:58. > :20:00.reasons and I say again, understandable reasons but we can't
:20:01. > :20:04.solve this problem by letting them all come to the European Union. I
:20:05. > :20:18.have two ask you about Brexit because that is the other
:20:19. > :20:21.existential challenge facing the European Union. After the Brexit
:20:22. > :20:25.boat, Angela Merkel said the very survival of the European Union is
:20:26. > :20:28.now at stake. Because she sees it like that, to that mean that you in
:20:29. > :20:32.Germany ultimately do feel that Britain has to pay a heavy price for
:20:33. > :20:35.Brexit and that you will not exceed Tibet cherry picking desires of
:20:36. > :20:39.harissa made to both leave the single market but have preferential
:20:40. > :20:42.access to the single market? First of all, a regret the United Kingdom
:20:43. > :20:50.leaving the EU. In the United kingdom always was and always will
:20:51. > :20:55.be one of our strongest partners. In Europe and the world. So you will
:20:56. > :21:02.allow, to a certain extent, some cherry picking? No! I was about to
:21:03. > :21:11.make the button. We want to make very strong ties politically -- the
:21:12. > :21:16.but. If you want access to the market, you have to accept the
:21:17. > :21:23.freedom of movement, for example. By the framework of the internal market
:21:24. > :21:29.and the WTO framework, there is so much room for compromise so we
:21:30. > :21:30.actually should start these negotiations. So far they haven't
:21:31. > :21:43.started. Give a there needs to be a divorce
:21:44. > :21:51.settlement started to be spoken about. They can't be simultaneous.
:21:52. > :21:56.Is that your view? They are separate, that is right but you
:21:57. > :22:02.cannot have it simultaneously. First of all, you have to settle the
:22:03. > :22:06.divorce, that is true. We are already about to talk about all of
:22:07. > :22:11.this. Of course you can already started talks about what is going to
:22:12. > :22:15.happen after but this will be the mother of negotiations, actually,
:22:16. > :22:21.one of the biggest negotiations that ever has been between states. There
:22:22. > :22:27.is a lot of work to do and so we should start soon to get away this
:22:28. > :22:32.uncertainty for so many people and so many businesses that are affected
:22:33. > :22:38.by this. Let's start this and let's find a way to have a very strong
:22:39. > :22:44.relationship, economically and politically. As I said, there is no
:22:45. > :22:50.cherry picking but much, much room for compromise. In your opinion, how
:22:51. > :22:57.much will it cost Britain in terms of its long-term economic prospects,
:22:58. > :23:03.leaving the EU? Well, actually, that is very hard to say. That is very
:23:04. > :23:07.hard to calculate. You can only make assumptions. You can make every
:23:08. > :23:18.number, if you want to, out of this. I think what is affecting most...
:23:19. > :23:23.Might point is this. President Hollande said that UK has two pay a
:23:24. > :23:29.high price or other countries might want to follow. Jelena that is not
:23:30. > :23:33.our opinion. -- that is not our opinion. We had to accept this
:23:34. > :23:36.decision. It is not about punishment. It is not about to
:23:37. > :23:43.cherry picking but finding a good way partnership afterwards. I am not
:23:44. > :23:48.so worried, by the way, about other countries leaving. Mr Trump might
:23:49. > :23:51.say it. Others might say it. I see the Eastern European countries
:23:52. > :23:55.having a big interest in good relationships. For example when it
:23:56. > :24:00.comes to defence. The defence union is something very important for our
:24:01. > :24:04.Eastern European partners. I see that our staff European partners
:24:05. > :24:09.love to be with us in the. Actually, I see no other country living. We
:24:10. > :24:13.have delivered there. Thank you very much, Jens Spahn, joining me from
:24:14. > :24:21.Berlin. A pleasure. Thank you.