:00:00. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk I am Sarah Montague. The decades, many have
:00:18. > :00:21.assumed that the only way there will be peace in the Middle East is when
:00:22. > :00:26.the Palestinians have their own state. But President Trump has made
:00:27. > :00:30.it clear that America is no longer wedded to the idea. Two states, one
:00:31. > :00:38.state, I can live with either one, he said. My guest is Tzipi Livni.
:00:39. > :00:41.She is the head of the Zionist Union movement in the Israeli parliament
:00:42. > :00:45.and a former Foreign Minister. She said that the only way to achieve
:00:46. > :00:49.foreign peace is to have two states for two people. But why is that?
:00:50. > :00:58.Could one state where dues, Muslims, and Muslims live in peace? -- the
:00:59. > :01:20.Jewish people, Muslims, and Christians live in peace?
:01:21. > :01:34.Tzipi Livni, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you Sarah. Why do you think
:01:35. > :01:39.the only solution is to stay for two people? The conflict is a national
:01:40. > :01:43.conflict between two national movements, one desires, which acted
:01:44. > :01:48.for many years in order to establish a state for the Jewish people, and
:01:49. > :01:51.the other is the national Palestinian movement. And as far as
:01:52. > :01:58.my understanding goes, and according to negotiations that we had before,
:01:59. > :02:03.the idea is to end the conflict and to end all claims between these two
:02:04. > :02:07.movements, the state of Israel and the Palestinians is to have
:02:08. > :02:13.different states for two different peoples, and which people implement
:02:14. > :02:19.their own right of self determination. And in Israel, Israel
:02:20. > :02:22.is a Jewish democratic state, and the meaning is that Israel is the
:02:23. > :02:26.nationstate of the Jewish people, with integral rise to all of its
:02:27. > :02:33.citizens, because it is a democracy, and because this is also our Jewish
:02:34. > :02:39.values. There is an argument that that has been tried for decades, or
:02:40. > :02:43.at least that has been the ambition for decades, unsuccessfully, which
:02:44. > :02:47.is perhaps one reason that the Israeli President talks about
:02:48. > :02:51.annexing the occupied territories, and he says that there won't be one
:02:52. > :02:56.law for Israel rallies and another for non- Israelis, you would grant
:02:57. > :03:07.citizenship to all residents, and it would be one Gallagher and
:03:08. > :03:14.democracy. This was the idea of many members, including my parents, after
:03:15. > :03:17.1967. The idea was that we would give equal rights to those living
:03:18. > :03:22.between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea, but in the end,
:03:23. > :03:30.this one, can lead to a situation in Israel in which it would stop being
:03:31. > :03:34.a true Jewish democratic state. We could have one state with everybody
:03:35. > :03:38.living there, but I don't think it would be living happily ever after,
:03:39. > :03:46.it would be more bloody, with this ongoing conflict amongst us. I
:03:47. > :03:51.believe this is the vision of Zionism, to create a state of the
:03:52. > :03:55.Jewish people, and in this state, everybody is an equal right citizen.
:03:56. > :04:00.Is it down to demographics, then, the idea that if you take in 2.5
:04:01. > :04:08.million Palestinians, that is the end of the Jewish state? Yes. In the
:04:09. > :04:14.end, listen... We live and my values are to keep in harmony the values of
:04:15. > :04:20.Israel as a Jewish democratic state. But this is also an issue of number.
:04:21. > :04:25.We need to have a Jewish majority in order to maintain the value and not
:04:26. > :04:29.have a clash between parties. Sopai had to start between the entire land
:04:30. > :04:35.of Israel and keeping the state of Israel as a Chua crash -- Jewish
:04:36. > :04:39.Ducati state, I prefer to divide the land and to keep the Israeli values.
:04:40. > :04:45.I would buy to refer, also, too... This is also the idea back in 1947,
:04:46. > :04:48.when the United Nations wanted to end the ongoing conflict that was
:04:49. > :04:51.here before the state of Israel was established. And the whole idea was
:04:52. > :04:55.to divide the land into two different states. Just on this
:04:56. > :05:03.question, the idea of what one state could look like. The PLO Secretary
:05:04. > :05:09.General has warned that the way that some people envisage it, you would
:05:10. > :05:15.have - it would be an apartheid system. Is that something you fear,
:05:16. > :05:19.to? Israel would not be an apartheid state. I would fight against it
:05:20. > :05:26.inside Israel, because this is against our values. -- too. You
:05:27. > :05:33.recognise that as a fear of having one state, do you? I believe that
:05:34. > :05:39.this is something that most of us, Israelis, would reject. This is
:05:40. > :05:44.against our values. And therefore, in choosing between all the options,
:05:45. > :05:47.as an Israeli, I believe that the Israeli interest is to divide the
:05:48. > :05:51.land into two different states. Frankly, I am not fighting for the
:05:52. > :05:55.establishment of a Palestinian state. I am fighting in order to
:05:56. > :06:03.keep Israel as a Jewish democratic state. And from his point of view,
:06:04. > :06:07.he is fighting to fight and create a Palestinian state, because he
:06:08. > :06:10.represents the national aspirations of the Palestinians. I would like to
:06:11. > :06:19.say something about what President Trump said. What he said was what
:06:20. > :06:24.make you happy makes me happy, but he also said it depends on both
:06:25. > :06:30.sides. So in a way, I am not against thinking outside of the box. And the
:06:31. > :06:36.other idea they can give an answer to our aspirations, to the
:06:37. > :06:42.Palestinian aspirations, and keep Israel as such, B. I mean... But as
:06:43. > :06:50.you said, this is exactly the point that he made, that it has worked so
:06:51. > :06:53.far. He said it is something very different that has not been
:06:54. > :06:57.discussed before. He went on to say it was a bigger and more important
:06:58. > :07:01.deal it in that it would take on more countries and encompass a
:07:02. > :07:05.larger territory. You recognise that by opening this up, there could be
:07:06. > :07:12.some chance of a very different route, but one that leads to peace?
:07:13. > :07:17.Frankly, I believe that even before entering into their negotiations on,
:07:18. > :07:22.Israel is need to decide what is our direction, what is our goal. And in
:07:23. > :07:27.a way, when President Trump put this on the table, I am using it, in
:07:28. > :07:32.order to safety Israelis OK, the two options of the table. What do we
:07:33. > :07:36.provoke? Even understanding that there would be no situation in
:07:37. > :07:39.Israel in which you have two different types of citizenship,
:07:40. > :07:43.because Israel is not to be an apartheid state. And maybe by
:07:44. > :07:49.raising this option, this can lead to an internal debate in Israel,
:07:50. > :07:53.because I know that the vast majority of Israelis support the
:07:54. > :07:58.idea of two states for two peoples, not for the Palestinians, not for a
:07:59. > :08:01.any president of the United States, or a favour to the Arabs of
:08:02. > :08:08.Palestinians, but because this is a way to keep Israel as such. And so I
:08:09. > :08:14.believe that the debate is something that is maybe good to have. But what
:08:15. > :08:19.we know is that based on information that has come out in the last days,
:08:20. > :08:23.not least from your fellow leader of the Zionist Union, Isaac Herzog, he
:08:24. > :08:34.has talked of the deal that was on the table last year and the -- from
:08:35. > :08:37.the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, and Benjamin Netanyahu, that
:08:38. > :08:44.he walked away from. Selling that would cause a freeze of settlements,
:08:45. > :08:53.some sort of proposal for a conference on peace deal. And you
:08:54. > :08:57.know that I and in opposition with Isaac Herzog. What we believe is
:08:58. > :09:01.that the best thing for Israel is to try again and again until we find a
:09:02. > :09:07.way to end the complex, based on the idea of two states were two peoples.
:09:08. > :09:12.And opportunity. Year ago, the opportunity is still on the table in
:09:13. > :09:15.a way. But with regimen that Yahoo! Is by Minister, because your
:09:16. > :09:26.colleague has accused him of being a serial refuser and will judge on
:09:27. > :09:31.that failure. -- but with Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister. That is
:09:32. > :09:36.true. But there is criticism on the other side. It is true and it is now
:09:37. > :09:39.more clear to the Israelis that what this coalition represents is
:09:40. > :09:45.something that would not lead to peace or the end of conflict, and
:09:46. > :09:48.more and more voices within this coalition, led like Benjamin
:09:49. > :09:54.Netanyahu are talking about something against the interests of
:09:55. > :09:57.Israel. And now what we represent is something which is completely
:09:58. > :10:02.different, and in the end, we will reach elections in Israel, hopefully
:10:03. > :10:06.sooner, and put this on the table, and say this is what I represent.
:10:07. > :10:10.And we represent something else. But I do agree that this is the
:10:11. > :10:19.responsibility of any leadership, and by refusing to all these, you
:10:20. > :10:23.know, Tilse or suggestions, and negotiations, that are based on not
:10:24. > :10:31.only be relations between the Israelis and but also on the ability
:10:32. > :10:40.to change the situation. -- all these, you know, ideas or is.
:10:41. > :10:44.-- all these, you know, ideas or suggestions.
:10:45. > :10:51.Most people want to normalise the situation, but the glass ceiling is
:10:52. > :10:57.the Israel Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately, Benjamin Netanyahu
:10:58. > :11:02.was not willing, couldn't, didn't want to, it was less important, to
:11:03. > :11:06.say yes to all of these offers that were on the table. And they are on
:11:07. > :11:10.the table right now, I believe. The offers are still there, but what,
:11:11. > :11:16.can you say no because of those with whom he is in coalition? Goes to the
:11:17. > :11:20.right of him? Excuse me. This is the excuse. This is the coalition that
:11:21. > :11:26.Benjamin Netanyahu fought. He had another coalition. We were in the
:11:27. > :11:32.coalition. We represented the idea of two states, or basically the idea
:11:33. > :11:37.of concessions and steps towards the Palestinians, and he toppled his own
:11:38. > :11:41.government and elections by saying that he wants to form a coalition
:11:42. > :11:50.based on what Benjamin Netanyahu called a natural partner. It is
:11:51. > :11:54.true. Would you go back into government with Benjamin Netanyahu,
:11:55. > :11:59.if he were to be open to accepting the deal that you say is still on
:12:00. > :12:07.the table, a deal to head towards peace? When a year ago, when this
:12:08. > :12:15.deal or the offers or what was on the table, was, when I was told
:12:16. > :12:19.about it, and asked whether I wanted to join the government based on
:12:20. > :12:23.this, I asked several questions. If you question is, frankly. Is he
:12:24. > :12:29.willing to free settlements outside of their blocks? Is he willing to
:12:30. > :12:33.give up the far right in his coalition? Is he willing to make
:12:34. > :12:37.more positive comments on the Arab peace initiative. When the answer
:12:38. > :12:41.was no, I said no to the question of whether I would join the coalition.
:12:42. > :12:45.And therefore, I am in the same position. The reason for me to be in
:12:46. > :12:48.politics and to try and move forward towards peace treaty. If we have
:12:49. > :12:53.problems on the way, and sometimes we have problems on the way, so
:12:54. > :12:58.let's and find a way to move forward. And settlement activities,
:12:59. > :13:03.especially outside of the fence, or legalising illegal outposts are a
:13:04. > :13:07.against what I think is in the interest of Israel. And this is
:13:08. > :13:10.something which should be avoided, and as long as Benjamin Netanyahu
:13:11. > :13:17.supports it, I cannot be party to that. OK. You talk about the
:13:18. > :13:20.outposts. But we are in a situation where the United Nations has again
:13:21. > :13:25.condemned the building of settlements, and we have had people
:13:26. > :13:29.suggesting, or even President Trump saying that he would like to see a
:13:30. > :13:34.whole back on building settlements, because it is seen as a ready
:13:35. > :13:39.prospect of a 2-state solution, but you are happy for there to be some
:13:40. > :13:47.settlements. And you continue building in settlement blocs, with
:13:48. > :13:52.new? Every... Also the Palestinian negotiators, I believe that any
:13:53. > :13:55.American president understands that when you are finalising the border
:13:56. > :13:59.or delineating the border between Israel and the future Palestinian
:14:00. > :14:03.state, we need to take into consideration what we call blocks of
:14:04. > :14:07.settlements. These are the places in which most of the Israelis living.
:14:08. > :14:11.Hundreds of thousands of them. And the good news is that it takes only
:14:12. > :14:16.a few percentage of the West Bank, and therefore when the Palestinian
:14:17. > :14:20.start speaking about adjustment to the 67 line, and want compensation
:14:21. > :14:31.to this, this is something that is negotiable. OK, but you will know
:14:32. > :14:35.that the recent UN resolution, 2334, passed in December, when the United
:14:36. > :14:39.States abstained, allowing it to be passed, it reaffirmed that the
:14:40. > :14:45.building of settlements on Palestinian territory occupied his
:14:46. > :14:48.1967 was a flagrant violation of international law, and did not just
:14:49. > :14:55.in which between the settlement blocs and the outposts.
:14:56. > :15:03.I am familiar with this, unfortunately and I believe that any
:15:04. > :15:10.understanding that this block should be part of an agreement, part of
:15:11. > :15:15.Israel and what I criticised the Israeli government with is when you
:15:16. > :15:21.do not make your priority, when you do not come saying I am willing to
:15:22. > :15:27.give up the places which are outside of the block, I am willing to freeze
:15:28. > :15:33.as a message of goodwill the outposts and settlement that are
:15:34. > :15:38.outside of the block so the minute the Israeli government cannot make
:15:39. > :15:45.these priorities the world is not making these priorities... What
:15:46. > :15:52.percentage of the settlement do you think are acceptable? That you
:15:53. > :15:56.categorise and settlement block because for people on the outside it
:15:57. > :16:02.is hard to get their head around this to get some sense of what you
:16:03. > :16:06.think is acceptable? World, are you not going to negotiate this with you
:16:07. > :16:12.but when I said that it takes only a few percentage is, we are all
:16:13. > :16:20.talking about 1 digit and therefore there are gaps... 1 digit, less than
:16:21. > :16:26.10% of all the settlement that have been built? Yes and this is
:16:27. > :16:30.something that should be negotiated between us and the Palestinians and
:16:31. > :16:34.they want compensation for it but it is not important what you think
:16:35. > :16:40.personally or what others are thinking about, settlement
:16:41. > :16:45.activities whether they are part of the international law or part of the
:16:46. > :16:49.Jewish people coming back to the land of their forefathers, we are
:16:50. > :16:56.talking about realities on the ground and since most Israelis that
:16:57. > :17:00.a living in what we call blocks of settlement, the realistic solution
:17:01. > :17:04.should take this into consideration because otherwise it is impossible
:17:05. > :17:10.to think you can reach an agreement. I can assure you, as the chief
:17:11. > :17:15.negotiator on the listing inside and also the Palestinian side, they
:17:16. > :17:23.understand this as well. In the past we got President Bush saying this
:17:24. > :17:32.she will be taken -- should be taken into consideration when we finalise
:17:33. > :17:39.an delineate the lines... We are with a different US administration,
:17:40. > :17:44.1 that has talked about being keen to move its embassy to Jerusalem
:17:45. > :17:51.from Tel Aviv and that is something you would support? I am an Israeli,
:17:52. > :17:56.Jerusalem is our capital. But you are also a politician, you know the
:17:57. > :18:03.consequences of that. But this is an American decision. Even if it were
:18:04. > :18:10.in west Jerusalem... This is an American decision and, as I said
:18:11. > :18:15.before, as an Israeli Jerusalem is our capital and I hope that you do
:18:16. > :18:22.not expect me... That I would represent here in HARDtalk is the
:18:23. > :18:31.outcome of this and what the Arabs would say... But you have in the
:18:32. > :18:37.past been honest enough to say, look, I going to beat politically
:18:38. > :18:40.correct about this and talk about settlements as a burden, this is
:18:41. > :18:48.something widely read the notes... As far as the embassy moved is
:18:49. > :18:52.concerned, it would be seen as highly provocative and unnecessary a
:18:53. > :18:58.move, are you not prepared to say that? No, because I believe it
:18:59. > :19:03.depends on whether it would be 1 step doing okay we are taking the
:19:04. > :19:09.embassy to Jerusalem and that is it or whether they would recognise
:19:10. > :19:12.things that are connected also to the interests of others in the
:19:13. > :19:16.region. I believe this is a question of not only taking the embassy but
:19:17. > :19:24.the context in which it will be done... The former director-general
:19:25. > :19:32.said that that would be the end of 2 states? As I said before I am sure
:19:33. > :19:40.the American, the new administration and I know that they started already
:19:41. > :19:43.asking our neighbours, the Palestinians, what would be the
:19:44. > :19:48.implications and it is for them to say how this is going to impact them
:19:49. > :19:55.and I hope that... Is it true that you have been offered a job at the
:19:56. > :20:00.United Nations? I prefer not to refer to this publication and
:20:01. > :20:09.speculation. But you had a meeting... This is going to be my
:20:10. > :20:13.only answer, I am sorry. But you can answer these questions. You have a
:20:14. > :20:19.difficulty with travelling, not least before when you came to London
:20:20. > :20:25.there was a summons issued for you, you are going to be going to Belgium
:20:26. > :20:29.in January, a trip that was cancelled and it is known that
:20:30. > :20:35.prosecutors as their way going to ask for you to be questioned. Do you
:20:36. > :20:45.have a difficulty with travelling, and fear that there would be arrest
:20:46. > :20:53.warrants issued from operations from when you are were a minister in
:20:54. > :20:58.Gaza? Note, I do not. As you know I visited London and did not go to
:20:59. > :21:05.Brussels for other reasons. In fact I did not know about this story. But
:21:06. > :21:10.I will check it. They want to say something about this in general, not
:21:11. > :21:17.about the and not about travelling. Israel is fighting terror and the
:21:18. > :21:22.operations from Gaza are against the organisation that is a religious
:21:23. > :21:30.conflict, it represents extremist Islamic ideology that is against not
:21:31. > :21:37.to say peace but even at the existence of the state of Israel...
:21:38. > :21:41.We only have a few minutes, the operation was in response to the
:21:42. > :21:50.firing of rockets into Israel... It is very important for me to say so,
:21:51. > :21:55.Hamas are acting in terror against our citizens and I believe is not
:21:56. > :21:59.only derived but the responsibility of any Israeli leader as a member of
:22:00. > :22:04.Cabinet to fight against any State in the free world that would do...
:22:05. > :22:10.But other states have not had the response the United Nations deep to
:22:11. > :22:13.Israel. He went report accused Israel of committing actions
:22:14. > :22:19.amounting to war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity... Know, I
:22:20. > :22:27.know that was a report and afterwards Israel opened everything,
:22:28. > :22:30.we're checking ourselves, our Supreme Court is checking every
:22:31. > :22:35.event that is happening. Frankly, Justin Morrow we are going to have
:22:36. > :22:40.the verdict of an Israeli soldier that acted against what we believe,
:22:41. > :22:45.not only international laws, but our laws, but I want to tell you
:22:46. > :22:48.something here, I just came from Munich, there was the security
:22:49. > :22:53.conference in there, as are said before, we are members of the free
:22:54. > :23:00.world, we are fighting together with others against terror and it is in
:23:01. > :23:04.order to defend civilians and avoid any civilian casualties and while
:23:05. > :23:11.you me these questions, the Foreign Minister of Iran has stated they
:23:12. > :23:19.support Hezbollah, other terror organisations. So I willing to
:23:20. > :23:23.answer any questions and I proud that I had in my life the
:23:24. > :23:29.possibility to be a member of the Israeli Cabinet and the fight
:23:30. > :23:34.against terror. Do you think residential thinks peace is more
:23:35. > :23:40.likely in the Middle East? I do not know. I want to at 1st said the
:23:41. > :23:46.former administration, secretary Kerry invested in it and highly
:23:47. > :23:52.appreciated it. The good news is that President Trump said I want to
:23:53. > :23:56.make a deal and he said that this is his priority and are therefore any
:23:57. > :24:01.American president who wants to make a deal, speaking about peace in his
:24:02. > :24:08.1st meeting with the Minister of Israel, it was good to hear and it
:24:09. > :24:13.is true that he said not only the 2 state solution but if he wants to
:24:14. > :24:20.invest in it, if he wants to achieve peace, let's hope this will happen
:24:21. > :24:23.is it is a common interest. Thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank
:24:24. > :24:26.you.