:00:21. > :00:39.OLDER THEME PLAYS. When it comes to the legal history of the United
:00:40. > :00:44.States, the case of Roe v Wade is a landmark. It culminated in the
:00:45. > :00:52.decision to legalise abortion, and has been bitterly challenged ever
:00:53. > :01:03.since. Among me is Jane Roe who was in the case. She has dropped the
:01:04. > :01:09.pseudonym and now has the opposite opinion. Norma McCorvey, that is
:01:10. > :01:16.your real name. Yes, it is. Welcome to the programme. No abortion, as
:01:17. > :01:22.far as you are concerned under any circumstances, period? None at all.
:01:23. > :01:26.You are saying you are not antiabortion, you are pro life. What
:01:27. > :01:32.is the difference? I think the antiabortion stigma comes from the
:01:33. > :01:39.pro- abortion movement. We call them pro- abortion so we call them
:01:40. > :01:47.antiabortion. Which is true? You are right. It is a negative. And I am
:01:48. > :01:58.really not negative. So, I like to say I am pro life. And you are pro
:01:59. > :02:03.life... As far as everything goes, across your whole life? Yes. Against
:02:04. > :02:06.capital punishment? Absolutely against it. Even though you voted
:02:07. > :02:12.for George Bush and will vote for George Bush? How do you know I voted
:02:13. > :02:19.for George Bush? You did, didn't you? It is the first time I voted.
:02:20. > :02:22.But you did? Yes, I did. This man, the Texas governor, is responsible
:02:23. > :02:29.for some of the highest execution in his state. I suppose he was. I did
:02:30. > :02:33.not really keep up with it. I did not vote. I was a non-voting person
:02:34. > :02:39.until George Bush was running for the US presidential election. And I
:02:40. > :02:45.decided to go and vote. But you don't see any conflict in that and
:02:46. > :02:52.you're otherwise pro life stance? -- your. No, I don't. You say you are a
:02:53. > :02:56.Christian now and you never were before. Do you think abortion is
:02:57. > :03:05.incompatible with Christianity? Abortion is killing. And in the ten
:03:06. > :03:09.commandments it says thou shalt not kill. And so I agree with the ten
:03:10. > :03:16.Commandments and all the teachings of the Catholic Church. Specifically
:03:17. > :03:20.the Catholic Church? Well, with each church that agrees that abortion is
:03:21. > :03:26.wrong. The Church of England, for example, says when the continuance
:03:27. > :03:31.of a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, a termination may be
:03:32. > :03:34.justified, though there must be safe and adequate provision in our
:03:35. > :03:46.society for such adulation is. Is that a godless approach? That --
:03:47. > :03:53.situations. I think... They may be rare, but they are also important.
:03:54. > :03:57.They are We are talking about the life of a woman and child. It is a
:03:58. > :04:02.balance, isn't it? That of course it is. It does not make it... The child
:04:03. > :04:11.is nonetheless a child if it is conceived in rape or incest. It is
:04:12. > :04:17.still a child. I understand that. But in the case where a mother may
:04:18. > :04:21.be threatened, which is what the Church of England is talking
:04:22. > :04:25.about... I do not go to the Church of England... I am saying there is a
:04:26. > :04:31.balance to be taken account of. Of course there is. If a mother is
:04:32. > :04:36.going to die in childbirth, if it is the view of a doctor that is going
:04:37. > :04:40.to happen, do you favour the life of the unborn fetus over that of the
:04:41. > :04:44.mother? I really do not think that is a very fair question, but I will
:04:45. > :04:49.give you my opinion. We will do anything to save the life of the
:04:50. > :04:55.mother and also the life of the child. But what if you cannot? What
:04:56. > :05:00.if you have to make a choice? What then? Then that decision has to be
:05:01. > :05:07.made by that particular woman's husband, her pastor, or her priest.
:05:08. > :05:11.But not the woman herself? If the woman is able to make the decision
:05:12. > :05:16.herself, then it is her decision. I guess. I don't know. I don't have
:05:17. > :05:20.all the answers. But you did say at the top that there should be no
:05:21. > :05:24.abortion under any circumstances. We are now discussing some
:05:25. > :05:33.circumstances that it is possible. But it is very rare. Yes, but you
:05:34. > :05:37.would support it under those circumstances? Under those
:05:38. > :05:42.circumstances. There are some you might. You are open. Your mind is
:05:43. > :05:49.not closed on this. You suggested at the top of the issue that you were
:05:50. > :05:55.completely closed to this but we found a chink of light in this.
:05:56. > :05:59.There is a chink of light as you put it in everyone's soul. It depends on
:06:00. > :06:07.what the climate is. It depends on the basic decision, which should be
:06:08. > :06:13.done by the people that are involved with it. OK. So it is not an
:06:14. > :06:20.absolute. It is not an absolute no abortion under any circumstances? I
:06:21. > :06:26.stand by the teachings of the Catholic Church, Tim. And I have
:06:27. > :06:32.worked in abortion clinics. And I see what abortion does to women.
:06:33. > :06:42.There are millions of... What do you mean by that, beyond carrying out
:06:43. > :06:45.the operation? What do you mean, "What they do to women." They do not
:06:46. > :06:48.give them proper counselling, they just take their money, do the
:06:49. > :06:56.abortion, and they do not really care if they leave the woman OK or
:06:57. > :07:06.not. Are you talking about illegal abortion? I am talking about
:07:07. > :07:13.legalised abortion. They said in a 7-2 in 1973 that a woman should be
:07:14. > :07:18.able to choose if she wants a safe abortion. And abortion is not safe.
:07:19. > :07:22.There are still women who are dying in the United States from legalised
:07:23. > :07:26.abortion. You can go to just about any pro life... How many are we
:07:27. > :07:34.talking about? We are talking about thousands. Really? Where do you get
:07:35. > :07:40.these figures from? I have no basis for my figures, OK? But I will tell
:07:41. > :07:48.you this, there are abortion doctors who come in, do and abortion real
:07:49. > :07:52.quake, and then they have a golf date, and they take off, and they
:07:53. > :07:56.don't really care if the woman has been... That goes through a lot of
:07:57. > :08:01.the medical profession, doesn't it? That is true, but I am talking about
:08:02. > :08:06.one specific area within medicine, and that is abortion. What about
:08:07. > :08:10.birth control? Where do you stand without? Strictly in line, again,
:08:11. > :08:14.with the teachings of the Catholic Church? Yes. But you are aware that
:08:15. > :08:20.in huge parts of Africa, the Catholic Church turns a blind eye to
:08:21. > :08:24.family planning and contraception? I don't know what the Catholic Church
:08:25. > :08:37.does in Africa. I am from the United States. But you do not have a view
:08:38. > :08:42.on this then? No. So your views are entirely restricted to the United
:08:43. > :08:48.States? Somewhat. For a woman who was cited in Roe v Wade, you could
:08:49. > :08:55.not have come further, could you? Away from that initial decision,
:08:56. > :08:58.which used your name in the case to come up with The Supreme Court
:08:59. > :09:04.decision, legalising abortion. You have turned full circle, haven't
:09:05. > :09:09.you? Completely? Yes I have, completely. And I am very proud of
:09:10. > :09:13.that. I am proud to know that I do not have to go into another abortion
:09:14. > :09:17.clinic and watch women come out of abortion procedures crying and
:09:18. > :09:24.wanting to call their mothers. I don't have to look at dismembered
:09:25. > :09:30.bodies of children who have been ripped out of their mothers' wounds.
:09:31. > :09:36.I don't have those nightmares and more. I refuse to have those
:09:37. > :09:40.nightmares. But for a quarter of a century, you believed abortion to
:09:41. > :09:48.be... For a quarter of a century I was misled. To be OK. I was told...
:09:49. > :09:57.How would you misled? I was told by the two attorneys, Sarah Weddingon
:09:58. > :10:01.and another that if it was made legal in taxes it would put an end
:10:02. > :10:08.to rape and incest. It did not happen. -- Texas. There is just as
:10:09. > :10:13.much going on as it was in 1973 and 1947. Are you saying you were
:10:14. > :10:22.misled? I was. By my former lawyers, yet. But in 1983, you are quoted in
:10:23. > :10:31.a book called The Law Giveth, talking about Sara. I have never
:10:32. > :10:42.heard of it. It was by Barbara. Who is she? She is an offer. Good for
:10:43. > :10:46.her. She says she is patient, she never put me off, and knowing Sarah
:10:47. > :10:58.is better than knowing the Queen of England. Laughing. I must have been
:10:59. > :11:03.stoned when I said that, Tim. You said that. Many people change quotes
:11:04. > :11:08.to suit needs. So you felt that you were manipulated by the lawyers?
:11:09. > :11:17.Yes. But he went to the lawyers, didn't you? You wanted... You wanted
:11:18. > :11:23.an abortion? I did. I went to an illegal abortion clinic in Dallas.
:11:24. > :11:27.There was no one there. They had been arrested a week before I got
:11:28. > :11:31.there. I was told by the attorney who was going to be handling my
:11:32. > :11:35.adoption case for the baby I was wanting to abort that there were two
:11:36. > :11:43.women who were freshly out of law school who wanted to overturn the
:11:44. > :11:50.Texas statute on abortion. We met. They must let me. I made a mistake.
:11:51. > :11:55.You feel that now despite what you were saying in 1983? I cannot help
:11:56. > :12:02.what was said in 1983. That was too many years ago. When you wanted your
:12:03. > :12:11.abortion, you were in your early 20s... Yes, I was. How did you get
:12:12. > :12:17.pregnant? I had an affair. And it was inconvenient to get pregnant?
:12:18. > :12:21.No. I did not want to bring another child into the world that I could
:12:22. > :12:35.not take care of. You already had two. I already had two children. I
:12:36. > :12:39.had won by my first marriage. I had one by an affair that I had by a
:12:40. > :12:42.young man who came and got his daughter after she was born and took
:12:43. > :12:47.responsibility for her. And that is what men have to do, they have to do
:12:48. > :12:51.is one's ability for there actions. It is not just the woman's fault. In
:12:52. > :12:56.order to get an abortion, you said that you had been raped, didn't you?
:12:57. > :13:00.I did say that. Which wasn't true? That is right. Why did you keep that
:13:01. > :13:09.story going for so long, for 15 years, in fact, didn't you? Yes, I
:13:10. > :13:16.did. But I finally came clean in 1981, or 1980 I am not sure what
:13:17. > :13:21.year it was, and I said that I had not been raped, that I had lied.
:13:22. > :13:28.That I had been lied to. The daughter that you gave birth to, you
:13:29. > :13:34.gave her up for adoption. Yes, I did the bite of the ever had any regrets
:13:35. > :13:39.about that? No, Sir. Do you ever think about her? Of course, I do.
:13:40. > :13:43.Ever wonder what she looks like? Of course, I do. But I promised I would
:13:44. > :13:47.never bother her. Do you have pity for women these days who are in a
:13:48. > :13:53.similar position to where you were then? Desperate, having found out
:13:54. > :13:58.that they... Things are different. We have crisis pregnancy centres
:13:59. > :14:03.that outnumber abortion clinics three - one. We have more
:14:04. > :14:05.information out of the information highway, so to speak than we did in
:14:06. > :14:19.1973. desperate when he found that you are
:14:20. > :14:22.pregnant. I wasn't desperate. But he wanted an abortion. When I got there
:14:23. > :14:27.and saw the conditions of the place, I couldn't go through with it. Dyoo
:14:28. > :14:39.want to be to show you why. If I had gone through an abortion, which I
:14:40. > :14:46.didn't. What are you showing me? Cut wrists. You would have committed
:14:47. > :14:54.suicide? I tried to commit suicide. How many times? 45. At what point
:14:55. > :14:59.did you try to commit suicide? I tried to commit suicide because I
:15:00. > :15:07.really didn't want to have my name, Jane Roe, which is not my name, its
:15:08. > :15:15.Norma McCorvey, tied up. I couldn't do it. I couldn't go through with
:15:16. > :15:21.the abortion. It has nearly driven me mad to begin with, just knowing
:15:22. > :15:27.that I was the plaintiff, just knowing that I was an executioner,
:15:28. > :15:32.but I used to tell women that it was OK, it was all right. This was after
:15:33. > :15:39.your experience? This was in the years afterwards. I worked in
:15:40. > :15:47.abortion clinics from 1991- 1994. I saw so many women, two, three and
:15:48. > :15:53.four times, until it wasn't even funny. A lot of women use abortion
:15:54. > :16:00.is a mean of birth control. A lot of women use abortion for whatever
:16:01. > :16:06.reason they want to and abortion should be stopped. Abortion stops at
:16:07. > :16:10.a beating heart. But in the years when you worked in the abortion
:16:11. > :16:17.clinics, you thought it was OK, didn't you? What were the reasons
:16:18. > :16:22.for you thinking that it was OK? How did you justified to yourself and
:16:23. > :16:32.then? I justified it, Tim, mostly every night with several pitchers of
:16:33. > :16:42.margaritas, if you must know. I needed a job. Simply that? That's
:16:43. > :16:45.it. And then, in 1995, it stopped suddenly all gradually? Gradually.
:16:46. > :16:53.You gradually came to the realisation that you couldn't go on
:16:54. > :17:00.like this? Yes, I did. And I met two very enchanting children by the name
:17:01. > :17:06.of Emily and Chelsea Mackie and they showed me that there was another way
:17:07. > :17:14.to live. And that way was to believe in God. And it's your religious
:17:15. > :17:24.belief now that brought you to this point of view, that abortion cannot
:17:25. > :17:27.be allowed? It's my soul's belief. You don't recognise the Norma
:17:28. > :17:34.McCorvey who used to work in the abortion clinics any more? Who was
:17:35. > :17:39.part of... Two was cheerleading for the cause of abortion? I never Cheer
:17:40. > :17:44.led for the pro- abortion site. We never got along. I have nothing to
:17:45. > :17:49.do with them. They would invite me places and then would refuse to let
:17:50. > :17:54.me speak because I wasn't one of the beautiful people, I wasn't one of
:17:55. > :17:59.the smartest people. I flew all the way to Washington, DC for a march in
:18:00. > :18:06.1989 and they said no, but I had no business going there to speak
:18:07. > :18:12.because they had Sarah Weddington. The argument that has put forward,
:18:13. > :18:15.one of the main arguments that put forward for legalising abortion, for
:18:16. > :18:21.keeping abortion legal in the United States is that it gives women the
:18:22. > :18:25.choice, it gives them a fundamental rights over their bodies. Why would
:18:26. > :18:30.you take that right away from them? I'm not trying to take anything away
:18:31. > :18:36.from them. I'm trying to make them realise that it's a mistake. The
:18:37. > :18:44.whole abortion industry was based on a foundation of lies. They don't
:18:45. > :18:50.give a dam about women. All they do is... But it's the woman's decision
:18:51. > :18:57.to make, isn't it? It is, but then women should not act as their own
:18:58. > :19:02.gods. But The Supreme Court cleared the way, a balance of interests
:19:03. > :19:08.between the state looking after life and women having privacy and control
:19:09. > :19:14.over their lives. I don't really... Would you really take that control
:19:15. > :19:18.away from them? This has been such a landmark decision, it's changed the
:19:19. > :19:26.lives of millions of women across America, hasn't it? We filed a
:19:27. > :19:39.motion 60 brief for the... Through the... The Federal courts in Dallas
:19:40. > :19:43.on June 19. 2003. To do what? To overturn a ropey weight. It's not
:19:44. > :19:48.going to happen, is it? As a former Supreme Court later, I'm entitled to
:19:49. > :19:53.the right to change my mind and to go back to the courts, even if I
:19:54. > :19:57.have to go to The Supreme Court, and ask them to Rick -- reconsider Roe
:19:58. > :20:03.the Wade. You have the right but it's not going to happen, is it? Do
:20:04. > :20:08.you have information I don't? You have the Attorney General, John
:20:09. > :20:12.Ashcroft, who is the most staunch antiabortionists in the Cabinet. He
:20:13. > :20:19.describes Roe the Wade is the settled law of the land. That's John
:20:20. > :20:26.Ashcroft. I'm not him. I am a woman. You seriously think you have a
:20:27. > :20:32.chance? I do. I talked to post- abortion women on a daily basis. 15,
:20:33. > :20:36.16, 18 years after their abortions. They're still feeling guilty about
:20:37. > :20:41.taking the life of their child. Do you really want to return to the
:20:42. > :20:45.situation where somewhere between up to a million illegal abortions are
:20:46. > :20:51.carried out in the United States every year? Tim, you know as well as
:20:52. > :20:57.I do that is a lot of pro- abortion lobbyists hype. But it's true.
:20:58. > :21:01.Before Roe the Wade, there were between 200,001.2 million illegal
:21:02. > :21:12.abortions carried out in the United States. Thousands died from illegal
:21:13. > :21:16.abortions. That is not hype. Thousands have died from legalised
:21:17. > :21:24.abortion. But she would return these women to that kind of situation.
:21:25. > :21:31.Women who have to go underground? Everyone should understand the
:21:32. > :21:36.reason why we are doing this. We are trying to save women's lives and
:21:37. > :21:46.children's lives. We are not doing this for any kind of personal
:21:47. > :21:50.agenda. Do you think you're being used by the pro-life people? The
:21:51. > :21:55.Republicans? You said you were used in turn by the others, the pro-
:21:56. > :22:00.abortion rests. I have never met such a great group of people since I
:22:01. > :22:04.have been in the pro-life movement, honestly. What does that mean? You
:22:05. > :22:11.used to like the lawyers, didn't you? I did. But you turned against
:22:12. > :22:19.them. They turned against me first. Your old lawyer says that the case
:22:20. > :22:23.for her, and the date, in 1973, when abortion was legalised, still the
:22:24. > :22:30.most exciting day of her life. She says it's given... Who is this?
:22:31. > :22:35.Sarah Weddington. Of course it did. It's given women 30 years of knowing
:22:36. > :22:40.what it's like to be autonomous and making decisions most vital to their
:22:41. > :22:44.lives. And that is the way Sarah Weddington thinks but it is not the
:22:45. > :22:52.way I think. I am not Sarah Weddington. I don't teach at
:22:53. > :22:59.Texas... The Texas University and I don't have a Ph.D.. What about all
:23:00. > :23:03.the violence against abortion clinics? The murders in the bombings
:23:04. > :23:09.in the arson attacks. You are dating yourself. Come on. What about the
:23:10. > :23:13.people who carry those out? It all happened in the 80s. What do you say
:23:14. > :23:17.to people who carried this out? I don't know anybody in the pro-life
:23:18. > :23:22.movement who does things like that. But you would condemn them if they
:23:23. > :23:27.did? I do not agree with them, no, what it -- because it is bloodshed
:23:28. > :23:31.touching bloodshed. You are not accomplishing anything by taking the
:23:32. > :23:35.life of an abortionist. Or attacking or tantalising. Or attacking or
:23:36. > :23:39.whatever it is these people are doing. So you hope the strength of
:23:40. > :23:45.your arguments alone will convince people? I have the strength of God
:23:46. > :23:48.'s word is heard, not mine. Norma McCorvey, expected to have you on
:23:49. > :24:06.the programme. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you.
:24:07. > :24:10.I think that's the main message today.
:24:11. > :24:19.Stormy weather pushing across the UK from west to east.