:00:09. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk from Singapore. I Stephen Sackur. This citystate is
:00:21. > :00:31.one of the remarkable economic success stories of the past 50
:00:32. > :00:33.years. But storm clouds are gathering over Singapore.
:00:34. > :00:36.President Trump is challenging assumptions about free trade
:00:37. > :00:41.and traditional security alliances in Asia.
:00:42. > :00:50.I have an exclusive interview with the Prime Minister of Singapore, Lee
:00:51. > :01:14.Hsien Loong. Is Singapore feeling vulnerable?
:01:15. > :01:22.Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, welcome to HARDtalk. Let's start
:01:23. > :01:27.with the international political climate. Donald Trump is now
:01:28. > :01:31.president of the United States and he talks about protectionism,
:01:32. > :01:38.ripping up trade deals that have been bad for America. How dangerous
:01:39. > :01:44.is this new political climate for Singapore. We are watching it very
:01:45. > :01:50.carefully. We of all countries depend most on trade, our GDP on
:01:51. > :01:53.foreign trade is the highest in the world, we have free trade agreements
:01:54. > :02:02.with many countries including the US. We are dependent on the system
:02:03. > :02:09.which America has built and upheld to maintain an open, global
:02:10. > :02:16.intercourse of trade, commerce, investment, finances, which have
:02:17. > :02:20.prospered most country most of the time. There is a new mood in America
:02:21. > :02:26.and President Trump reflects that and we have to watch carefully what
:02:27. > :02:32.policies he pursues. When he says the globalised trading system has
:02:33. > :02:39.led to the greatest job theft in the history of the world? There are many
:02:40. > :02:43.views on that. In Singapore, it has not done that to us. In America,
:02:44. > :02:49.many American companies have prospered because they are all over
:02:50. > :02:57.the world with a base in America. I think the President reflects a new
:02:58. > :03:01.idea. Worried? Alarmed? It depends on what he does. The campaign
:03:02. > :03:07.rhetoric is likely always overheated. When they confront the
:03:08. > :03:13.realities and have to make the choice is... But one key act he has
:03:14. > :03:18.taken is to walk America away from the transpacific partnership, a deal
:03:19. > :03:25.which Singapore was very much a part of. Now the Americans want nope part
:03:26. > :03:29.of it. We were disappointed by that because we spent a long time
:03:30. > :03:33.negotiating it. It was carefully balanced and Americans bargained
:03:34. > :03:38.hard as it did the other countries and we felt, Singapore or in
:03:39. > :03:49.particular, felt it was important not just economically, but also
:03:50. > :03:53.strategically because it an deep and America's engagement in Asia and
:03:54. > :03:57.gave a rationale for America to take a close interest in Asia and tried
:03:58. > :04:02.to make things work out well in Asia. What signal doesn't send about
:04:03. > :04:08.America's feelings about its engagement with Asia? It shows on
:04:09. > :04:13.this issue Mr Trump was following through on his campaign rhetoric but
:04:14. > :04:18.I do not believe the administration is going to pull back from Asia or
:04:19. > :04:24.the world. He said he once a muscular engagement and we will have
:04:25. > :04:31.to see what that means. Your words from last autumn, just before Trump
:04:32. > :04:37.won the election, he said that if the United States went back on the
:04:38. > :04:42.TPP trade deal, how would anyone believe in the Americans any more?
:04:43. > :04:49.He said it was not just about trade but strategic issues as well.
:04:50. > :04:55.America is a reality, it is still a great power and think this has put a
:04:56. > :04:59.dent in the degree to which people can be confident of America's
:05:00. > :05:05.policies but it has happened and we have to live with that. Some other
:05:06. > :05:11.signatories of the TPP, thinking of Australia and New Zealand, said they
:05:12. > :05:17.would not rule out moving ahead without the United States. In Japan
:05:18. > :05:24.it seems a nonstarter. How is it viewed in Singapore? 12 -1 and
:05:25. > :05:30.consensus, Singapore would sign. Whether that happens, I am not sure
:05:31. > :05:36.because the Japanese in particular made very painful concessions in
:05:37. > :05:41.exchange for American concessions. And if you have a deal with America
:05:42. > :05:45.is not party, and think the political and economic balance has
:05:46. > :05:51.shifted so I would not rule it out but I do not think it is so easy to
:05:52. > :05:56.achieve. We talked about uncertainty in Washington but there is also
:05:57. > :06:01.uncertainty in your relationship with Beijing. Going back to your
:06:02. > :06:05.father, you have sought strong relationships with the US and
:06:06. > :06:13.Beijing. But you have some major problems symbolised recently when
:06:14. > :06:18.the Chinese and pounded some of your vehicles when they were in an
:06:19. > :06:23.exercise in Taiwan. I would not say we have major problems but we have
:06:24. > :06:28.some issues and some incidents. I think military vehicles were an
:06:29. > :06:35.incident which happened to both of us. It suggested a lack of trust.
:06:36. > :06:41.Well, it is a delicate matter for both sides. There has been a
:06:42. > :06:45.satisfactory outcome. To put it bluntly, the Chinese are furious
:06:46. > :06:51.with some policy decisions you have made, not least your support to the
:06:52. > :06:55.Court of arbitration backing of the Philippines in a dispute in the
:06:56. > :07:01.South China Sea. The Chinese feel you are betraying a friendship. No,
:07:02. > :07:06.I think you miss paraphrase me. I did not strongly support the courts
:07:07. > :07:14.ruling. What I said was the court made a strong statement and that was
:07:15. > :07:21.a difference. Let's be clear... The Chinese do not accept it, the
:07:22. > :07:28.Filipino do but it was a ruling in which was set in very strong terms.
:07:29. > :07:36.Who has just as on its side the Chinese... We respect international
:07:37. > :07:40.courts decisions. Decisions are made and they can be scrutinised,
:07:41. > :07:46.examined, scrutinise. Our interest is a freedom of navigation, rule of
:07:47. > :07:52.international law and also the cohesion and the relevance of our
:07:53. > :07:58.city. From the Beijing point of view, your decision during the Obama
:07:59. > :08:01.administration to sign a deeper defence agreement with the Americans
:08:02. > :08:07.and to the Chinese that looks like a statement of intent which works
:08:08. > :08:13.against their interests. We have had this relationship with the US for a
:08:14. > :08:21.long time. We buy military equipment from them, we train there, and for
:08:22. > :08:27.more than 30 years we have had... Rehab posted American aircraft and
:08:28. > :08:33.ships in the region which passed through and stop in Singapore and we
:08:34. > :08:37.think it is the right thing for us to do because we believe that the
:08:38. > :08:40.American presence in the region is positive for the region and the
:08:41. > :08:44.security presence is positive for the region. It has brought about
:08:45. > :08:50.stability, it has enabled countries to prosper and compete peacefully
:08:51. > :08:58.and therefore we believe it is in our interest to be friendly with the
:08:59. > :09:03.Americans. With rising tension in the region and Donald Trump talking
:09:04. > :09:07.about a new America first policy and we have discussed the protectionist
:09:08. > :09:14.element things are getting difficult for Singapore? If our relationships
:09:15. > :09:19.become very difficult, our position becomes tougher because we will be
:09:20. > :09:23.called to choose between being friends with America and France with
:09:24. > :09:28.China and that is a real worry. Right now we are friends with both.
:09:29. > :09:33.It is not that we do not have issues with either but we are generally
:09:34. > :09:37.France with both and relations are in good working order. Do you
:09:38. > :09:44.believe Beijing- Washington relations are in danger of
:09:45. > :09:47.deteriorating? Relations always require close attention on both
:09:48. > :09:53.sides and I shot that the Chinese side know that an I hope the
:09:54. > :09:58.American side will have that attention because on the American
:09:59. > :10:02.side you have many other issues to worry about- the Middle East, the
:10:03. > :10:09.Ukraine, Latin America. Unless you focus on these relationship both the
:10:10. > :10:14.win-win issues and areas of contention is can go wrong. You
:10:15. > :10:21.mentioned Europe, the looming prospect of Brexit, when you look at
:10:22. > :10:25.the United kingdom as a place to do business as a trading and investment
:10:26. > :10:33.partner, from your point of view, has Brexit strengthened or weakened
:10:34. > :10:40.the UK? Well, we have no vote on this. From our point of view we
:10:41. > :10:47.think that Brexit weakens the EU, we are not sure its strength as the UK.
:10:48. > :10:50.You can make a living, you will not starve outside the EU but it is an
:10:51. > :10:55.enormous market on your doorstep and you cannot avoid doing this is where
:10:56. > :11:00.the and you may not have strengthened your influence. This is
:11:01. > :11:05.what Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said recently, let's understand what
:11:06. > :11:10.we're dealing with here, the world is not see Britain through the prism
:11:11. > :11:14.of being a member of the European Union. The nations of the world see
:11:15. > :11:20.and respect written as a major power in its own right. Looking from
:11:21. > :11:26.Singapore, and you think that is true? Singapore is a small country.
:11:27. > :11:30.We are trying to make away in the world and we find it and essential
:11:31. > :11:40.that we are part of a regional A/C an which is not as ambitious --
:11:41. > :11:50.ASEAN, it is not as big and it is our life raft and he gives your
:11:51. > :11:57.voice a bigger voice in the world. Britain now is very eager to begin
:11:58. > :12:04.work on very far reaching bilateral trade deals and obviously is an
:12:05. > :12:10.important trading nation in the world they are looking at Singapore.
:12:11. > :12:15.You in negotiations? We are not in negotiations but we would be willing
:12:16. > :12:19.and happy to do that. I think you have many countries with which to do
:12:20. > :12:25.deals, starting with the United States. You have to do that. But the
:12:26. > :12:30.fact is, you are doing it on your road. There is an active debate in
:12:31. > :12:36.the UK about how this trade bilateral deals should be done and
:12:37. > :12:41.what values should be brought to bear- for example opposition figures
:12:42. > :12:45.say if we are going out to countries around the world looking for
:12:46. > :12:51.referential trade deals, we must not and cannot turn a blind eye to human
:12:52. > :12:57.rights issues, abuses, violations, in the pursuit of sweetheart trade
:12:58. > :12:58.deals. Some have mentioned Singapore.
:12:59. > :13:02.This is what Tim Farron, the leader of the Liberal Democrats
:13:03. > :13:05.in the UK said, he said, "If we're to seek a deal
:13:06. > :13:08.with Singapore, Theresa May, the Prime Minister, must raise
:13:09. > :13:11.issues of freedom of expression and freedom of the press in any
:13:12. > :13:14.trade talks with Singapore". How do you respond to that?
:13:15. > :13:19.I don't see you being restrained in asking me any questions.
:13:20. > :13:22.No, I'm not but that's not really the point is it?
:13:23. > :13:24.The point is whether you would be prepared to offer guarantees
:13:25. > :13:30.on your treatment of the press at home, here in Singapore?
:13:31. > :13:33.Whether you would be prepared to talk about wider freedoms
:13:34. > :13:37.for the press in this country? I would not presume to tell
:13:38. > :13:39.you how your press council should operate, why should
:13:40. > :13:42.you presume to tell me how my country should run?
:13:43. > :13:45.We are completely open, we have one of the fastest Internet
:13:46. > :13:49.accesses in the world - we have no great wall
:13:50. > :13:52.of the internet, you can get any site in the world you wish.
:13:53. > :13:54.So where's the restriction? So if the government of Britain
:13:55. > :13:59.were to make linkages between a trade deal and seeking
:14:00. > :14:04.guarantees about human rights, press freedoms, workers' rights,
:14:05. > :14:08.demonstrators' rights in this country, your reaction would be?
:14:09. > :14:12.I would wait to react until I see it.
:14:13. > :14:16.You look at the Americans; they don't lack fervour
:14:17. > :14:18.in moral causes. They promote democracy,
:14:19. > :14:23.freedom of speech, women's rights, gay rights, sometimes
:14:24. > :14:26.even transgender rights. But you don't see them applying that
:14:27. > :14:31.universally across the world with all their allies.
:14:32. > :14:36.Yes, they do it when the cost is low, and then they can take
:14:37. > :14:40.a high position. You look at some of the most
:14:41. > :14:47.important oil producers in the world - do they conform?
:14:48. > :14:50.Have they been pressured? You have to do business.
:14:51. > :14:52.The world is a diverse place, nobody has a monopoly
:14:53. > :14:55.on virtue or wisdom. And unless we can accept that
:14:56. > :14:57.and we prosper together and cooperate together,
:14:58. > :15:00.accepting our differences. Differences in values,
:15:01. > :15:04.differences in outlooks, differences even in what we see
:15:05. > :15:12.as goals of life to be. I think it becomes difficult.
:15:13. > :15:16.Let's, if we may, spend a little bit of time thinking about the values
:15:17. > :15:18.represented of time thinking about the values
:15:19. > :15:22.represented in Singapore. It is a democracy. I think you're proud of
:15:23. > :15:27.your democracy, and yet the reality is that there has been one party in
:15:28. > :15:33.power, the party that your father founded, and was the central figure
:15:34. > :15:39.within, 1-party rule ever since the independence of Singapore. Most
:15:40. > :15:43.people in the West would say that for a really active, successful
:15:44. > :15:46.democracy, you need a powerful opposition that has the very real
:15:47. > :15:51.prospect of winning power. That you don't have that in this country. I
:15:52. > :15:55.would not say it is 1-party rule. The government has only belong to
:15:56. > :16:00.one party, but there are many parties in Singapore. But Prime
:16:01. > :16:04.Minister, you know as well as I do, that the number of opposition MPs in
:16:05. > :16:08.your Parliament are just a handful. In fact, you have had to pass a law
:16:09. > :16:13.to guarantee them positions because otherwise there would be virtually
:16:14. > :16:19.none. There are now six elected, three unelected. Out of 100 and
:16:20. > :16:23.something. About 80 plus. And then we are going to increase the number
:16:24. > :16:28.to 12. But really it is the workings of a democratic system. The
:16:29. > :16:34.population voted. They preferred PAP candidates to become member 's
:16:35. > :16:39.parliament. They chose the PAP to govern them, and govern well. As
:16:40. > :16:42.long as that happens, I can have that outcome in government. As long
:16:43. > :16:47.as the government stops functioning or if I have a Member of Parliament
:16:48. > :16:53.that does not fulfil his duties and loses his voters' confidence, the
:16:54. > :17:01.situation will change overnight. It is open. Well, your country is so
:17:02. > :17:06.open in terms of its economy, but so not open in some other ways. I
:17:07. > :17:11.mean... Just because the voters have voted for me and my party does not
:17:12. > :17:15.mean we are not open. Weathermen. Look at the realities. You have an
:17:16. > :17:20.internal security act that allows people to be locked up without
:17:21. > :17:25.charge or trial. The only people we have locked up like that in recent
:17:26. > :17:28.decades are extremist. You have also taken legal action against teenage
:17:29. > :17:33.bloggers for things they have written online. You have Human
:17:34. > :17:38.Rights Watch saying Prime Minister Lee is ruling absolutely over
:17:39. > :17:41.dissenting voices, that was the hallmark of his father. If it was
:17:42. > :17:46.such a miserable place, you would not be interviewing me. You would be
:17:47. > :17:49.going down the street and getting vox pops and all sorts of people
:17:50. > :17:54.would be seen terrible things about their government. And some of them
:17:55. > :17:58.would have emigrated, but the fact is, the Singaporeans are happy. They
:17:59. > :18:02.have chosen this government. We are governing the country and the people
:18:03. > :18:06.to the best of our ability. And millions more would like to come in,
:18:07. > :18:10.if we allow them. Let's talk symbols, then. About the identity of
:18:11. > :18:17.Singapore today and what you wanted to look like in the years to come.
:18:18. > :18:22.There has been a lot of discussion, shall I say, inside the citystate
:18:23. > :18:31.about your oppressive law on homosexuality. It is still
:18:32. > :18:34.technically illegal, things to statute number 377a, for two
:18:35. > :18:39.consenting male adults to have sex. It is a criminal offence. Now I know
:18:40. > :18:44.that the Singapore judicial authorities choose not to prosecute
:18:45. > :18:51.them for doing it, but why not as a symbol of change in this country, it
:18:52. > :18:57.get that off the statute book? It is a matter of society values. We
:18:58. > :19:05.inherited this from British Victorian attitudes. And I am sure
:19:06. > :19:08.you do not want Singapore today to reflect British Victorian values. We
:19:09. > :19:12.are not British or Victorian. This is a society that is not liberal on
:19:13. > :19:16.these matters. Attitudes have changed but I believe that if we had
:19:17. > :19:21.a referendum on the issue today, 377a would stand. The majority of
:19:22. > :19:24.Singaporeans... You have been in power for more than 12 years
:19:25. > :19:32.yourself. Is it not your role as a leader to signal to your people that
:19:33. > :19:37.Singapore can and must adapt to changing social mores? On social
:19:38. > :19:43.moral issues, I think the government's role is not to leave.
:19:44. > :19:48.It is - people believe this, some fervently, it is a vexed issue in
:19:49. > :19:55.every society. Let me ask you personally. I don't wish to sound
:19:56. > :20:00.rude in any way, but... You never are... If any of your children or
:20:01. > :20:06.grandchildren Wague, would that change your perspective? Would you
:20:07. > :20:14.then think it were acceptable for people to be criminal eyes in this
:20:15. > :20:18.way? -- were gay. I think it is a law that is there. If I remove it, I
:20:19. > :20:22.would not remove the problem, because if you look at what has
:20:23. > :20:26.happened in the West, and in Britain you decriminalised it in the 1960s,
:20:27. > :20:30.your attitudes have changed a long way, but even now, gay marriage is
:20:31. > :20:35.contentious. In America, it is very contentious. Even in France, in
:20:36. > :20:41.Paris, they have had demonstrations in the streets against gay marriage.
:20:42. > :20:47.But what is your personal view? Which you like to get rid of 377a?
:20:48. > :20:52.My personal view is that if I do not have a problem, this is an uneasy
:20:53. > :20:56.compromise, and I am prepared to live with it until social attitudes
:20:57. > :21:02.change. We are also almost out of time. A few questions on Singapore's
:21:03. > :21:06.future and its future leadership. In 2008, you gave an interview where
:21:07. > :21:10.you indicated that you did not think Singapore was ready for a Muslim,
:21:11. > :21:18.non- Chinese premise. Do you still feel that they? I think that ethnic
:21:19. > :21:26.considerations are never absent when people vote. -- think that today. In
:21:27. > :21:31.Singapore, it is better than before, but race and religion count. And I
:21:32. > :21:36.think that makes it difficult. It is not impossible. And I hope one day
:21:37. > :21:41.it will happen. And you don't think Singapore is ready to they? If you
:21:42. > :21:51.asked it to happen tomorrow, I don't think so. Should the situation
:21:52. > :22:01.arise, one person who could be considered would be Tharman
:22:02. > :22:07.Shanmugaratnam. A lot of Singapore is the as the best qualified person
:22:08. > :22:13.to be the next Prime Minister. My sense is that Singaporean voters
:22:14. > :22:18.will look for a good man, a man who can resonate with them. A man they
:22:19. > :22:22.can identify with. Could it be Tharman Shanmugaratnam? It could be
:22:23. > :22:28.someone like Tharman Shanmugaratnam. But these are factors which voters
:22:29. > :22:33.take into consideration when they go into the ballot box and when they
:22:34. > :22:37.identify with them. And I think there are very few countries where
:22:38. > :22:43.you can say their race does not count at all. That is race. But we
:22:44. > :22:48.should talk about names. It is the matter is that Singapore, your
:22:49. > :22:56.father led this country for more than 30 years. You have let it fall
:22:57. > :23:01.more than 12 years. -- led to it. Do you think it will be difficult for
:23:02. > :23:09.Singapore to move beyond the Lee family? -- led it? That is a mortal.
:23:10. > :23:14.I will have to hand over the role of Prime Minister. Prime Minister,
:23:15. > :23:21.again, this is personal, but you did have a health scare last year. Two
:23:22. > :23:25.years ago. Yes. You recovered and we all understand that you are feeling
:23:26. > :23:32.well. Do you intend to go on and on? Know I do not. I said many times. So
:23:33. > :23:35.tell me about the succession. Your father always said that organising
:23:36. > :23:40.the succession is crucial. And I think you have said that too. So how
:23:41. > :23:46.will that were? It is a difficult job. I've assembled a team of junior
:23:47. > :23:50.ministers. And amongst them, they are able people they can work
:23:51. > :23:55.together, and need to build a team, and build the trust of Singapore
:23:56. > :24:00.lacked Singaporeans, and amongst themselves, they must throw up and
:24:01. > :24:04.acknowledge and support a leader. Will you pick that person? I cannot
:24:05. > :24:08.be that person. They must decide who they will work for. If I pick the
:24:09. > :24:18.leader and they don't support them, it will become something like the
:24:19. > :24:25.Albert Victorian museum. That is the end of Singapore. Prime Minister
:24:26. > :24:36.lease and long, thank you for joining us. Thank you very much --
:24:37. > :24:37.Prime Minister Lee Hsien