0:00:07 > 0:00:07Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:11I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13After three years of fighting, 10,000 dead and hundreds
0:00:13 > 0:00:16of thousands displaced, is it time for Ukraine's leaders
0:00:16 > 0:00:20to acknowledge they are in a war they cannot win?
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Geopolitics, economics, and public sentiment don't seem
0:00:22 > 0:00:26to be working in Kiev's favour.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30My guest was Ukraine's prime minister until a year ago.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33Arseniy Yatsenyuk described his own premiership as a kamikaze mission.
0:00:33 > 0:00:40So how does his nation avoid self-destruction?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Arseniy Yatsenyuk, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Thanks for having me, Stephen.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Seems Ukraine's crisis has lurched into a new level of urgency
0:01:15 > 0:01:21in recent days with a blockade, which has been imposed by people
0:01:21 > 0:01:25who are actually nominally supportive of Ukraine's government,
0:01:25 > 0:01:27a blockade which is restricting all trade between the eastern
0:01:27 > 0:01:30breakaway regions and the rest of the country.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Why is this happening?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36The reason is very clear.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Under the Minsk deal Russians had to launch a full-fledged ceasefire
0:01:40 > 0:01:45on the ground, to pull back its forces, and to pave the way
0:01:45 > 0:01:49for the political solution.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51What's really happening?
0:01:51 > 0:01:53They are still constantly shelling Ukrainian, both
0:01:53 > 0:01:57military and civilians.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59The death toll is rising.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04And people, they want to show their strong will to get Ukrainian
0:02:04 > 0:02:09territory back on the one hand, and on the other hand to attract
0:02:09 > 0:02:10attention to the Ukrainian case.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13Right, well, you say people want to show their strong will.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16What they're actually doing, it seems to me, is an act
0:02:16 > 0:02:18of self-destruction because in putting this blockade
0:02:18 > 0:02:21on what they call the blood trade between the Kiev government
0:02:21 > 0:02:23and the breakaway regions, they're in effect killing
0:02:23 > 0:02:29the Ukrainian economy.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32So, let me split people from the politicians.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Some politicians try to misuse the situation
0:02:35 > 0:02:38for their own political games.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42That's true.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45Yulia Tymoshenko, for example.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47One of the most prominent politicians in your country,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50a woman that you had dealings with for many, many years.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52She supports those activists engaged in the blockade.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55And, as I say, this blockade, if it continues, according
0:02:55 > 0:02:58to your own prime minister, is going to create an emergency
0:02:58 > 0:03:02in your country, which he says in the very near term will cost
0:03:02 > 0:03:04300,000 jobs in your factories, your manufacturing plants,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06because you won't have coal for your power stations,
0:03:06 > 0:03:12you won't have steel for your factories.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14So, the government passed a resolution the day before
0:03:14 > 0:03:18yesterday which is to impose the restrictions on trade
0:03:18 > 0:03:22to so-called self-proclaimed republics except humanitarian aid,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25medicine, and so-called critical import, the stuff that goes
0:03:25 > 0:03:28to Ukraine and outside Ukraine in order to extract the coal
0:03:28 > 0:03:31and in order to supply iron ore to the Ukrainian companies.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33When I was in the government this was practically
0:03:33 > 0:03:40the similar decision.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42So we never paid any penny to so-called self-proclaimed republics.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45All legal entities were registered in Ukraine, they pay taxes
0:03:45 > 0:03:48in Ukraine and we paid wages and salaries in Ukraine.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51So, once again going back to the issue you just raised.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56Some politicians want to misuse this and to play on the blood.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00Yeah, what we have, and you're accepting it in your answer really,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03are massive cracks emerging within that part of Ukraine
0:04:03 > 0:04:05which is loyal to the Kiev government, you know?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08We've got Tymoshenko, we've got people like Mikhail Saakashvili,
0:04:08 > 0:04:14and many other prominent figures who are saying that
0:04:14 > 0:04:21President Poroshenko has got this wrong and the blockade is the only
0:04:21 > 0:04:25and the right thing to do.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28So, the uneasy coalition of political forces that's backing
0:04:28 > 0:04:29the Kiev government is breaking down.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Let me be very blunt.
0:04:31 > 0:04:32You label them as prominent politicians.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36I will say that we have a lot of lunatics in our politics too,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39and they don't care about the country, they don't care
0:04:39 > 0:04:41about the future, they don't care about the people.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44They care about their polls.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47You're calling Yulia Tymoshenko - right now, her political party
0:04:47 > 0:04:50is around 20% in the polls, whereas your political party's at 2%
0:04:50 > 0:04:54in the polls - you're calling her a lunatic, are you?
0:04:54 > 0:04:57I am calling those who are against my country lunatics,
0:04:57 > 0:05:00and not only lunatics, even worse.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02I won't use these kind of words.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Going back to the polls, well, it's not 20%, it's definitely less.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08But look at the populist movements in the European Union.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11All populists try to gain ground because they talk to the people
0:05:11 > 0:05:20what the people want to listen to.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22They will never deliver on their promises.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Are you worried that populism and nationalism are taking Ukrainian
0:05:25 > 0:05:26politics in a very dangerous direction?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28Well, I am concerned that populists and demagogues,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31they take over the political stage in the entire world, including
0:05:32 > 0:05:33Ukraine.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36They want to take the stage.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38That raises a more global issue because Donald Trump
0:05:38 > 0:05:40is in power in Washington.
0:05:40 > 0:05:41You've just talked about populism.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Would you acknowledge that Donald Trump's presidency represents
0:05:43 > 0:05:46a new and profound problem for you and the people
0:05:46 > 0:05:54in the governing elite in Kiev today?
0:05:54 > 0:05:57You know what is the difference, for example, between my country
0:05:57 > 0:06:02and the United States?
0:06:02 > 0:06:09The US still have very strong democratic institutions.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12We need some time to build up very strong and durable
0:06:12 > 0:06:13democratic institutions too.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Whether I'm concerned about the new US administration,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18after the Munich conference which you and I participated in,
0:06:18 > 0:06:24Vice President Pence, Rex Tillerson, General Mattis,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27they were very vocal and they were very strong
0:06:27 > 0:06:30in their support of Ukraine.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33So, the way I see it they follow the policy
0:06:33 > 0:06:34of the previous administration.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37The only question we have, whether they speak for themselves
0:06:37 > 0:06:41or they speak for President Trump.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42That's a very, very big question.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46And what we know from President Trump, despite his latest
0:06:46 > 0:06:49State of the Union speech and when he committed
0:06:49 > 0:06:49fully to Nato...
0:06:49 > 0:06:50Well, it was perfect.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52It was perfect.
0:06:52 > 0:06:52Well, fine.
0:06:53 > 0:06:54Well crafted.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56One set of words from the President of the United States.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Different sets of words in the last year have included professed
0:07:00 > 0:07:02admiration for Vladimir Putin, have included his willingness
0:07:02 > 0:07:04to consider a deal over sanctions with Vladimir Putin,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07have also considered his feeling that the people of Crimea appear
0:07:07 > 0:07:10to want to be with Russia, not with Ukraine.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12That is the President of the United States that you're
0:07:12 > 0:07:17going to have to deal with.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19He has changed his mind.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Look at his Twitter.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25The last tweet he posted on Ukraine was that Crimea was illegally
0:07:25 > 0:07:30annexed by Russia.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33So he recognised that Crimea was illegally annexed by the Russian
0:07:33 > 0:07:34Federation.
0:07:34 > 0:07:35This is a good move.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38The truth is you have no idea what's in Mr Trump's mind.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Do you have any kind of idea?
0:07:40 > 0:07:41No, I do not.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43But for you that uncertainty is deeply dangerous.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47OK, I'm going to tell you something but I know who can have the idea,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50or who can get the ear of the new US President.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52This is your prime minister.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55She delivered a perfect speech in Philadelphia at GOP retreat.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57She did really great at that joint press conference
0:07:57 > 0:07:58with the United States President.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01And after this the US President confirmed his commitment to Nato
0:08:01 > 0:08:07and to the free world.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12The thing is you have to believe the glass is half full even if it
0:08:12 > 0:08:14looks to most people like it's rapidly becoming more
0:08:14 > 0:08:15than half empty.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18You said recently, this was a message that you delivered
0:08:18 > 0:08:20direct to the United States, Europe and Western powers.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22You aren't allowed to lift sanctions, you said,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25against Russia until Russia fully implements the Minsk II,
0:08:25 > 0:08:27that is the peace agreement for the future of Ukraine,
0:08:27 > 0:08:30and until Ukraine has taken over control of Luhansk,
0:08:30 > 0:08:36Donetsk and Crimea.
0:08:36 > 0:08:37Full-stop, period.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Well, you may say to the West you're not allowed to lift sanctions,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43but frankly it's not in your gift, is it?
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Look, what's happening, a few months ago I was really
0:08:46 > 0:08:49concerned that Russia could win this fight in terms of lifting sanctions.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53But as for today, what we see, no one is considering an option
0:08:53 > 0:09:01to leave the sanctions.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05Sanctions will be in place and this is a big win.
0:09:05 > 0:09:12Well, the thing is you and Ukraine appear to indulge in wishful
0:09:12 > 0:09:14thinking time and again.
0:09:14 > 0:09:20In the last few days we've had President Poroshenko saying
0:09:20 > 0:09:23in public it's time for our people to consider Nato membership.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26He says he wants to put it to a popular referendum.
0:09:26 > 0:09:32I don't know if you've been talking to members of Nato recently
0:09:32 > 0:09:33but I certainly have.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36I spoke to the Secretary General of Nato very recently.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38The possibility, the prospect of Ukraine being invited
0:09:38 > 0:09:40in to membership right now is simply fantasy.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42And surely you know it.
0:09:42 > 0:09:43Let me go back to the history.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Do you remember Bucharest meeting of Nato, Bucharest summit in 2008?
0:09:46 > 0:09:53Ukraine was promised to sign a membership action plan.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56So, in the end a number of Nato member countries refused
0:09:56 > 0:10:00to support this idea.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03What happened afterwards?
0:10:03 > 0:10:04Russia invaded Georgia.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06Then Russia illegally annexed Crimea and sent in troops
0:10:06 > 0:10:12to Donetsk and Luhansk.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15We paid a huge political price for this kind of decision.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Going back to our prospective Nato membership, we are very pragmatic
0:10:18 > 0:10:21and realistic and I do understand that we cannot get it
0:10:21 > 0:10:28in the short term.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31But in the long term, in case if we modernise our military,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34if we pass reforms that are needed for the Ukrainian military,
0:10:34 > 0:10:37and we are on track with these, with the support of Brits,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Canadians and Americans, if we approximate Ukrainian military
0:10:40 > 0:10:43up to Nato standards it's in your interests to have Ukraine
0:10:43 > 0:10:48as a Nato member.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51We are defending your borders and your security.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53I come back to the phrase wishful thinking.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57Vladimir Putin in effect has a veto on Ukraine's membership of Nato,
0:10:57 > 0:10:57does he not?
0:10:58 > 0:11:00Vladimir Putin in terms of Nato and Ukrainian sovereignty.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03So you believe that Putin is stronger than the leaders
0:11:03 > 0:11:08of the free world?
0:11:08 > 0:11:09I believe in realism and pragmatism.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11You say in Ukraine...
0:11:11 > 0:11:13You're going to lose in this case.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15..Putin has thousands of Russian troops on Ukrainian soil.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16Right.
0:11:16 > 0:11:17That's what you say.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20You say that Russia is pulling the strings behind the so-called
0:11:20 > 0:11:23secessionist self-governing regions in the east of your country.
0:11:23 > 0:11:24That's what you say.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27And do you then really think that Nato is going to embrace
0:11:27 > 0:11:30into membership a country which is riven by that dispute
0:11:30 > 0:11:33and where Moscow, according to you, has troops on its soil?
0:11:33 > 0:11:36I see that Ukrainian military is the only military that deterred
0:11:36 > 0:11:38Russian troops, and this is the fact.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40I see that Ukrainian military is quite strong.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42And I see that Ukrainian people managed to survive
0:11:42 > 0:11:45and we still have the country and we still have the nation,
0:11:45 > 0:11:54and I don't care what President Putin wants.
0:11:54 > 0:12:01Well, you may not care what President Putin wants
0:12:01 > 0:12:04but the fact is if you look at this conflict from the outside,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07the man who has the clear strategy, the man who appears
0:12:07 > 0:12:10to have the leverage and hold the cards right now is Vladimir
0:12:10 > 0:12:14Putin.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18If you build, if you say it like this, I would say I am very,
0:12:18 > 0:12:20not just concerned, it sounds desperate,
0:12:20 > 0:12:22it sounds that the free world is distracted.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25It sounds that you don't have the policy, the policy
0:12:25 > 0:12:29towards your countries, not Ukraine.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Well, look at what you call the free world.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33Look at the European Union.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36They have so many other concerns, frankly, from Brexit,
0:12:36 > 0:12:38which you personally have described as scary.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40That was a word you used recently.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42There's also the question about the future of the Eurozone,
0:12:42 > 0:12:49the United States has a new President, and we've discussed
0:12:49 > 0:12:51the impact that he's already had on geopolitics.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55There are so many reasons to believe that the West's strategy is not
0:12:55 > 0:12:58clear, is not coherent, is not sustained in the way that
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Russia's strategy right now appears to be.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03This is the challenge for the West.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05In case if this is the challenge this is an opportunity.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09No doubt that we are living in another world, so let's
0:13:09 > 0:13:13shape this world.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Let's make the new policy, the stronger one, which is to defend
0:13:16 > 0:13:19liberties and democracy, which is to defend our every single
0:13:19 > 0:13:21nation and our countries, which is to defend our values.
0:13:21 > 0:13:22So let's be specific.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24We've talked a lot about East Ukraine.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27Let's just get into the detail a little bit.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30I have seen it claimed from sources in Kiev that you believe
0:13:30 > 0:13:33there are currently thousands of Russian troops on your soil.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34Yes or no?
0:13:34 > 0:13:35Absolutely.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38You also seem to believe that arms are flowing across the border
0:13:38 > 0:13:41from Russia into those secessionist areas and that the secessionists
0:13:41 > 0:13:43in essence have created an army based on Russian know-how
0:13:43 > 0:13:49and Russian materiel.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00No doubt, not secessionists, not Russian proxies,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02but Russian military already deployed in Crimea,
0:14:02 > 0:14:04in Donetsk and Luhansk.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06You know, all these guerrillas are not capable to build anything.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10So why do you...
0:14:10 > 0:14:13But they are capable to get the support from Russia.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Why do you continue to talk about the Minsk II agreement?
0:14:16 > 0:14:17It's a couple of years old.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21If this is what is happening today, clearly the Minsk II agreement isn't
0:14:21 > 0:14:22worth the paper it's written on.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25So why do you continue to insist that, ah yes,
0:14:25 > 0:14:28the Minsk II agreement has to be the root and the source
0:14:28 > 0:14:35of a settlement in our country?
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Let me be very frank.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38Minsk did a lot.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40Practically, initially the Minsk deal was the ceasefire deal
0:14:40 > 0:14:43and I pay tribute to the Chancellor and to the French President
0:14:43 > 0:14:44in brokering the deal.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46So we acted in good faith.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49We as the state of Ukraine, we were whiter than white
0:14:49 > 0:14:50in implementing the Minsk deal.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53We passed very difficult decisions in the House.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55The first reading of the Ukrainian constitution, an amnesty bill,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58a bill on special status and the rest of the stuff.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02So we wanted to show to the entire world that we are ready
0:15:02 > 0:15:03for the political solution.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Well, with respect that is not strictly true, is it?
0:15:06 > 0:15:09Point 11, as I understand it, of the Minsk II deal states that
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Ukraine must change its constitution to assign the separatist territories
0:15:12 > 0:15:13a special status.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15Now, those constitutional changes require a two-thirds majority
0:15:15 > 0:15:18in the Ukrainian parliament and there is not a possibility
0:15:18 > 0:15:29on Earth that that is going to happen.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31There is not any kind of precondition for this.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Because, look, even though there is no ceasefire on the ground,
0:15:34 > 0:15:35look at the data.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38Every single day they kill Ukrainians.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Every single day coffins with dead Ukrainian soldiers...
0:15:40 > 0:15:42And every single day your side commits violations too.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44Only in case if they start the shelling.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47That's precisely what the separatists say about you.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48Here we have a classic conflict.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51All I'm saying is that in this conversation we've established that
0:15:51 > 0:15:54right now there is no peace on the ground,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56the Minsk II isn't worth the paper it's written on,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59you have profound problems with the coherence, frankly,
0:15:59 > 0:16:10of your Western supporters and allies.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12We don't.
0:16:12 > 0:16:13We don't.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15It seems to me that everyone is on the same page.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16Really?
0:16:16 > 0:16:25Yes.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Well, let's not rehearse that argument again but we've discussed
0:16:28 > 0:16:30the impact of Donald Trump, we've discussed what's
0:16:30 > 0:16:31going on in Europe.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35But let's now get to a point that seems to me very important.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38In Ukraine there are significant players who are now saying
0:16:38 > 0:16:39it is time to compromise.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Victor Pinchuk, one of your leading businessmen in Ukraine,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44a man who is very close to the Ukrainian political
0:16:44 > 0:16:47leadership, he wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal just
0:16:47 > 0:16:50the other week which said, look, it's time to compromise
0:16:50 > 0:16:53and we cannot afford to let the issue of Crimea get in the way
0:16:53 > 0:16:56of a settlement, a deal which would save thousands
0:16:56 > 0:16:57of Ukrainian lives.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59We are on a different side of the aisle.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02We cannot have any kind of compromise over territorial
0:17:02 > 0:17:03integrity and sovereignty of my country.
0:17:03 > 0:17:09The only solution which is on the table is that Russia
0:17:09 > 0:17:10is to get out of Ukraine.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13It was Russia who started the war, who waged the war
0:17:14 > 0:17:21against an independent country, who tries to redraw the lines
0:17:21 > 0:17:24after the Second World War, and who posed a threat to Ukraine,
0:17:24 > 0:17:28to you, to Nato, and to everyone who stands by the values
0:17:28 > 0:17:29of democracy and freedom.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32So you, to use the language of Victor Pinchuk, are prepared
0:17:32 > 0:17:34to sacrifice thousands of lives, are you, for this
0:17:34 > 0:17:35principle, you say?
0:17:35 > 0:17:37The principle of not acceding to any Russian demand,
0:17:37 > 0:17:39not considering any painful compromise.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43We are prepared to fight like hell for our country and we are prepared
0:17:43 > 0:17:45to implement the Minsk deal the way it is written.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48And you're prepared to look in the eye every father and mother
0:17:49 > 0:17:52of a Ukrainian soldier who is gunned down in this war that will continue
0:17:52 > 0:17:55as long as you say there will be no compromise?
0:17:55 > 0:17:58They are heroes who are defending their land and our nation.
0:17:58 > 0:17:59How will this end then?
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Are you telling me that the only end is in a complete military victory
0:18:03 > 0:18:06for the Ukrainian side, because frankly on the ground nobody
0:18:06 > 0:18:15believes that's possible.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Once again I have to mention that there is a political solution.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20And it's written in the Minsk deal.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24So tell me the reason why Putin doesn't want to execute it.
0:18:24 > 0:18:25And the reason is very simple.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28He wants to have a new geopolitical structure of the world.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32The guy wants to run the world, or at least part of the world.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34He wants to restore a sphere of influences.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35He wants to grab Ukraine.
0:18:36 > 0:18:42This is the truth.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I said a little while ago that many people believe Putin holds the cards
0:18:46 > 0:18:48and has the leverage right now.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51One of the reasons people believe that is that the Ukrainian
0:18:51 > 0:18:53government is fundamentally weakened by endemic corruption
0:18:53 > 0:18:55and poor governance.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58You have had now three years to try and sort this out.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01You were the prime minister for a substantial chunk of that time
0:19:01 > 0:19:04up until last year and all of you in the leadership have
0:19:04 > 0:19:12signally failed to tackle this problem of corruption.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15If I may, just to present you the facts, no more emotions.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18So, the biggest corruption was in the energy sector of Ukraine.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21You know that there were a number of corrupted deals between Ukrainian
0:19:21 > 0:19:24state-owned enterprise Naftogaz, which is oil and gas company,
0:19:24 > 0:19:25and Russian Gazprom.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27As the prime minister I eliminated all these tarnished
0:19:27 > 0:19:28and corrupted under-the-table deals.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31The guy, Mr Firtash, who is under FBI investigation,
0:19:31 > 0:19:33so he was eradicated and eliminted from the gas sector.
0:19:33 > 0:19:38My government took over the assets from Ukrainian tycoons.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41We increased taxes and in this case we hampered the position
0:19:41 > 0:19:42of Ukrainian tycoons.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44There is no more political representation of Ukrainian
0:19:44 > 0:19:45oligarchs in Ukrainian house.
0:19:45 > 0:19:52So we achieved a lot.
0:19:52 > 0:19:53Did you really believe all that?
0:19:53 > 0:19:54Yes, I do.
0:19:54 > 0:20:10Because the Ukrainian people don't.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Number one, they got rid of you and at the time
0:20:13 > 0:20:16of your resignation after the President said he had no
0:20:16 > 0:20:18confidence in your government anymore, pretty much a year ago,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21the Ukrainian people had you at 2% approval rating.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23And many Ukrainians looked at the company you personally kept
0:20:23 > 0:20:28and saw you as part of the problem, certainly not part of the solution.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31There is another part of this, there is another truth,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33I would say, or truth as it is.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35A huge mudslinging campaign was launched against my government
0:20:35 > 0:20:38by all these tycoons that I already mentioned.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40It wasn't just mud, though, was it?
0:20:40 > 0:20:42You had some allies, some of your closest friends
0:20:42 > 0:20:45like Mr Martynenko, who is now under investigation for accepting a $30
0:20:45 > 0:20:48million bribe through a Czech company when he was involved
0:20:48 > 0:20:49with the Ukrainian nuclear industry.
0:20:49 > 0:21:07You kept some pretty dodgy company didn't you?
0:21:07 > 0:21:10And for the first time in the history of Ukrainian house
0:21:10 > 0:21:13he voluntarily was stripped of the mandate of the member of house.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16And there is ongoing investigation and no indictment in 15 months.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18We don't know whether he is guilty or not.
0:21:18 > 0:21:19He denies the charges.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23But what I put to you is that on a whole host of different
0:21:23 > 0:21:27examples you and people around you appeared to be far too close
0:21:27 > 0:21:30to the oligarchs, as you call them, that still are the most prominent
0:21:30 > 0:21:32players in Ukraine's business political elite.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34For example, Mr Lutsenko, the head of the President's faction
0:21:34 > 0:21:37in the parliament said this in April 2016 as you left.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40He said: the problem with Mr Yatsenyuk was he couldn't
0:21:40 > 0:21:43abandon the former practice of consulting the oligarchs before
0:21:43 > 0:21:43making his decisions.
0:21:43 > 0:21:52I have to refer to a mudslinging campaign.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Look, we are frenemies with my President so let me keep
0:21:55 > 0:21:56silence on this particular issue.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58But you just mentioned my low approval rating.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Could you imagine what's going to happen with your government
0:22:01 > 0:22:10in case if your government is to pass four austerity packages?
0:22:10 > 0:22:12Nobody's saying it's easy but the bottom line
0:22:12 > 0:22:15is Transparency International today, not two years ago, but today have
0:22:15 > 0:22:18Ukraine at 131, place 131 in the world's most corrupt nations.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22Now, that's at the wrong end of the scale, not the right end.
0:22:22 > 0:22:30You are, according to them, the worst, most corrupt nation
0:22:30 > 0:22:31in all of Europe.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33Where we succeeded we eliminated this massive corruption.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36But if you ask me whether corruption exists in my country,
0:22:36 > 0:22:46yes, it still exists and it exists not only in Ukraine.
0:22:46 > 0:22:54It exists in other parts.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56And the system and the network have clearly overwhelmed
0:22:56 > 0:22:59you and overwhelmed the capacity of all other political leaders
0:22:59 > 0:23:01in your country today to beat it.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03For that particular reason we established a national
0:23:03 > 0:23:05anti-corruption agency, National Anti-Corruption Bureau,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07and the house passed the bill which was introduced
0:23:07 > 0:23:09by my government, of so-called electronic declarations.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I wish your politicians will field the same kind of text disclosure...
0:23:12 > 0:23:22Sorry, asset disclosure declarations as Ukrainian high-profile officials.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25What are you worth, as you've had to declare your assets?
0:23:25 > 0:23:29I started to declare my assets from the year 2001 and you can
0:23:29 > 0:23:30easily check it online.
0:23:30 > 0:23:31What are you worth?
0:23:31 > 0:23:32Uh, more or less US$1 million.
0:23:32 > 0:23:33I was the banker.
0:23:34 > 0:23:36I was the lawyer.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39I worked in the private sector for ten years.
0:23:39 > 0:23:39Just a final thought.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary here in the UK, where you're
0:23:43 > 0:23:45visiting at the moment, he's talked about what worries him,
0:23:45 > 0:23:47a concept that he calls Ukraine fatigue.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51He claims there are people in Europe who are kind of bored and tired
0:23:51 > 0:23:53with talking about Ukraine and its crisis.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56May be the same in the United States of America.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59That is going to be a big problem for you, isn't it?
0:23:59 > 0:24:00Well, that's normal.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02People get tired of unresolved issues.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05But we can't be tired in fighting for our principles and values.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Arseniy Yatsenyuk, thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:07 > 0:24:18Thank you.