:00:00. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:14. > :00:15.The President of the Democratic Republic of Congo, Joseph Kabila,
:00:16. > :00:22.has been in power for 16 years, and should have stood down
:00:23. > :00:27.at elections that were due last November.
:00:28. > :00:32.Still no elections are in sight and opposition leaders are growing
:00:33. > :00:37.increasingly frustrated. My guest today is opposition
:00:38. > :00:46.politician Moise Katumbi. Is effectively in exile in Europe,
:00:47. > :00:57.so what can he achieve that this distance? -- at this distance.
:00:58. > :01:10.And has the opposition been outmanoeuvred by President Kabila?
:01:11. > :01:23.Thank you. December the 31st last year, a deal was hammered out under
:01:24. > :01:30.the auspices of a group of powerful Catholic Bishops in the DRC. Does
:01:31. > :01:33.that present a way forward? There should be a transitional
:01:34. > :01:38.administration, pending elections to be held in 2018, Joseph Kabila won't
:01:39. > :01:44.stand. Yes, we know that deal, which the argument with the Congolese
:01:45. > :01:49.government and the opposition, supposed to serve the country. So
:01:50. > :01:53.far the agreement is dead. President Joseph Kabila doesn't want, really,
:01:54. > :01:58.to make the application of the agreement. So really, everything is
:01:59. > :02:04.stuck at the moment. The court is that group of Catholic Bishops. At
:02:05. > :02:10.our understanding is that the son of the late Opposition Leader, who died
:02:11. > :02:14.in February, should be the Prime Minister in that transitional
:02:15. > :02:22.administration. Is that something that the opposition will accept,
:02:23. > :02:29.including new? I agree for him to become the Prime Minister, and all
:02:30. > :02:36.the opposition, the majority agree for Felix, and to replace his father
:02:37. > :02:40.as president of the community following the election. But no word
:02:41. > :02:44.yet from Joseph Kabila on whether he would accept that? No, Joseph Kabila
:02:45. > :02:51.is playing tactics at the moment. The agreement is very clear. There
:02:52. > :02:57.are some in the opposition, it is not up to even them. It is not up to
:02:58. > :03:02.President Joseph Kabila. You know, with the death of Tshisekedi early
:03:03. > :03:07.in February, this veteran Opposition Leader, really respected by so many
:03:08. > :03:14.people, politicians and ordinary folk in the DRC, and when he died, a
:03:15. > :03:17.human rights advocate said with the death of Tshisekedi, the opposition
:03:18. > :03:24.has lost its unifying force, and could shatter. He has got a point,
:03:25. > :03:28.hasn't he? No, I don't think so. Because President Tshisekedi really
:03:29. > :03:36.was the first Opposition Leader in our country, and ourselves, we need
:03:37. > :03:42.to take care about what President Tshisekedi left. At the moment the
:03:43. > :03:46.opposition is, there is a big unity in the opposition, and we are going
:03:47. > :03:50.to do all our best to change the face of our country. We need a
:03:51. > :03:54.strong opposition, not fighting opposition. A strong opposition,
:03:55. > :03:59.though? Is Felix Tshisekedi really the man to fill his father's shoes
:04:00. > :04:02.as a possible prime minister in a transitional Administration? He has
:04:03. > :04:09.got no ministerial experience. People talk about him being rather
:04:10. > :04:12.naive. No, it is not true. You know, first, Felix Tshisekedi was not
:04:13. > :04:22.chosen by the father. By different party politics,... But just because
:04:23. > :04:27.he has the Etienne Tshisekedi name. It is not because of the Etienne
:04:28. > :04:30.Tshisekedi name. Etienne Tshisekedi had a lot of children, only Felix
:04:31. > :04:35.was interested in doing the politics, and is somebody... I went
:04:36. > :04:39.as a governor, I had never been in politics, and Felix was in politics
:04:40. > :04:44.a long time in the opposition with his father. I think he is going to
:04:45. > :04:47.be the Prime Minister. Why President Joseph Kabila doesn't want Felix,
:04:48. > :04:52.because he is not somebody of good word. So you mentioned when you are
:04:53. > :04:58.governor, that is when you were governor of the province from 2007
:04:59. > :05:02.to 2015. We will come to that in a moment. Here you are I think this
:05:03. > :05:05.should happen or that should happen in the DRC, but can you have any
:05:06. > :05:12.influence when you are in Europe? You are currently based in Brussels,
:05:13. > :05:16.effectively in exile. Yes, you know, my exile... I am in exile, and still
:05:17. > :05:21.waiting for the country, waiting also on the unity of the opposition.
:05:22. > :05:25.And going all over the world, I travel almost every day, I am in the
:05:26. > :05:31.plane, to go and fight my country. To talk to the people, today the
:05:32. > :05:38.killing is too much in my country. There is really a lot of killing
:05:39. > :05:42.going on in the east of the Congo. There is no rule of law in my
:05:43. > :05:45.country at the moment. That is between the various militia groups
:05:46. > :05:50.and forces opposed to the President, and so on, in the east of the
:05:51. > :05:53.country? No, I think the killing is coming from the government soldiers
:05:54. > :06:02.at the moment. Killing innocent girls, that is why we need the
:06:03. > :06:06.international investigation. But here you are, though, saying all
:06:07. > :06:09.these things should happen and you have been chosen as the presidential
:06:10. > :06:17.candidate in elections whenever they take place by G7, which is a group
:06:18. > :06:20.of seven opposition parties, and in addition to that more parties have
:06:21. > :06:24.rallied behind you in the opposition, something like 20 are
:06:25. > :06:29.backing you. But you are still out of the country. So really, shouldn't
:06:30. > :06:34.you be there? Why aren't you going back to the DRC? I want to go back
:06:35. > :06:38.as quick as possible, to go back to my country. The time I wanted to
:06:39. > :06:42.come back, they took me to court began in my country, to say I have
:06:43. > :06:51.stolen something. Which is ridiculous. It is a plot against a
:06:52. > :06:57.candidate. Joseph Kabila is scared for my return to the Congo, because
:06:58. > :07:01.he knows it is his end and I am a candidate, I am going to go back as
:07:02. > :07:04.soon as possible. You have been saying that for a while. And of
:07:05. > :07:09.course, you are talking thereabout your supporters, saying there was a
:07:10. > :07:13.trumped up charge of your selling a property illegally in the capital of
:07:14. > :07:17.Katanga, and you were sentenced to 36 months in prison, and you say
:07:18. > :07:21.that is not the case, it is just a fake charge. But there are other
:07:22. > :07:24.things being said about you, that you were plotting against Joseph
:07:25. > :07:28.Kabila, that you hired mercenaries, and isn't there an investigation
:07:29. > :07:33.going on at the moment into what you might have done? You know, all those
:07:34. > :07:38.are fake stories. Because President Joseph Kabila is scared. I am the
:07:39. > :07:45.only one Joseph Kabila is getting today. He doesn't want me to return
:07:46. > :07:50.back in the Congo, because I did a really good job, and why the other
:07:51. > :07:55.political parties chose me as their candidate? Because I did something
:07:56. > :07:59.wonderful when I was governor. They changed the economy of the country
:08:00. > :08:07.and the economy of the province. The time I became governor, the province
:08:08. > :08:14.of Katanga had only $180 million per annum. I left over $4 billion. So
:08:15. > :08:23.really, at the moment, when I left, before I resigned, the Budget was $9
:08:24. > :08:28.billion. Today the Budget is not more than $3 billion per annum. So
:08:29. > :08:32.you point to these achievements, and there are independent observers who
:08:33. > :08:36.say that you did accomplish a great deal when you were governor of
:08:37. > :08:40.Katanga, but can you translate that kind of popularity on a nationwide
:08:41. > :08:48.basis? Because you don't make that many appearances in the capital, you
:08:49. > :09:01.didn't when you were in the DRC. How good is your ling gala, by the way?
:09:02. > :09:05.My Lingala is quite good so far. It is not that great, though? I speak
:09:06. > :09:09.very fluent Lingala, very fluent Lingala I speak. The point I am
:09:10. > :09:13.making is that that is the language of the north-west and your power
:09:14. > :09:18.bases in the south-east. Do you have nationwide appeal? The nationwide
:09:19. > :09:21.appeal, I am all over all of the provinces and if you go in the
:09:22. > :09:25.different provinces where I was not as a governor, people need me.
:09:26. > :09:31.Because they saw what I did in the Katanga province, the changes which
:09:32. > :09:35.did my province, and really, I think if I didn't have a good result as
:09:36. > :09:40.governor, I would not be supposed to stand. People want me coming in
:09:41. > :09:45.because today people are suffering, people are dying. The economy is a
:09:46. > :09:50.big disaster today. No security in the country. Sure, that is the case,
:09:51. > :09:54.but can you do all of that without a party? You don't have a party. I
:09:55. > :10:00.want to be independent because I want to unify everyone. Even the
:10:01. > :10:03.people from the majority, the time I am going to win the election, they
:10:04. > :10:06.have to work with me, the opposition, everyone. We needed to
:10:07. > :10:11.make a country our great country. But you need a party for that, don't
:10:12. > :10:14.you? What is your base? I know that you own a very popular football
:10:15. > :10:20.club, and there is talk of you perhaps opening up a new satellite
:10:21. > :10:24.TV station, but what is your base? You know, my base is firstly the
:10:25. > :10:27.people of the Congo. All the Congolese people, they don't belong
:10:28. > :10:32.to party politics. There are some people which, they don't know what
:10:33. > :10:38.is party politics, and I've got a lot of party politics supporting me.
:10:39. > :10:41.So I know longer belong to one party politics. I want to belong to the
:10:42. > :10:46.Congolese people. Having said that, you were a member until September
:10:47. > :10:55.2015 of the ruling party, the people's party for democracy, the
:10:56. > :10:58.party of Joseph Kabila, is that in the elections in 2006 as a deputy in
:10:59. > :11:05.the national Parliament, you won that election. So you are associated
:11:06. > :11:12.with the very person you now say you are opposing. Yes, you see, I was
:11:13. > :11:16.with President Joseph Kabila. If President Joseph Kabila... The time
:11:17. > :11:20.I went to see him in 2014, and explained to him the respect the
:11:21. > :11:23.Constitution, if President Joseph Kabila respected the Constitution, I
:11:24. > :11:27.would not be supposed to leave because at the moment he doesn't
:11:28. > :11:31.want to organise the election. President Joseph Kabila is betraying
:11:32. > :11:35.the people of Congo. So I didn't want to betray the people of Congo.
:11:36. > :11:39.That is why I went to see him, and explained to him, said, Mr
:11:40. > :11:44.President, you have two terms. We need to respect the need for our
:11:45. > :11:48.country to have more investors to come in our country, and people to
:11:49. > :11:52.give us their trust. And they need to have a good partnership, also,
:11:53. > :11:56.with the international community, and the Congolese people. You know
:11:57. > :12:01.how many people died before we had our first election? Over 3 million
:12:02. > :12:07.people. So I think it is a sad story. President Joseph Kabila is
:12:08. > :12:11.supposed to leave by a big door. Now I don't know if he is going to leave
:12:12. > :12:16.by a small window. But the point making here is that there is a lot
:12:17. > :12:21.of talk in the DRC other rich and powerful elites. And really, one
:12:22. > :12:25.could ask you whether you are worried about the perception that
:12:26. > :12:32.you are a member of that rich and powerful elite. Because, for
:12:33. > :12:40.example, you co-founded and CK, the mining company for Katanga,
:12:41. > :12:46.controlled by your wife Karen. So like you concerned that people might
:12:47. > :12:50.think Moise Katumbi is another rich and powerful politician? I think
:12:51. > :12:54.what is making a difference, my father was a businessman. I had a
:12:55. > :12:58.business before I entered politics. When the party of President Kabila
:12:59. > :13:04.asked me to join them I was a businessman. I had all my things,
:13:05. > :13:08.and I sold MCK to a French company. It was a company which was doing
:13:09. > :13:14.well. I started a company when I was very young. He entered in business
:13:15. > :13:20.when I was 18 years old. I worked in a different country, I was in
:13:21. > :13:26.Zambia, and also emerald mining, still my son is running that
:13:27. > :13:30.business. So I sold all those things. A transport company, and I
:13:31. > :13:39.don't refuse my past. President Trump comes from a business
:13:40. > :13:45.background, and presidents in Africa come from also a business family.
:13:46. > :13:48.No, but I am just putting it to you that, for example, I will give you a
:13:49. > :13:53.quote from a human rights group, global witness, which said in 2006,
:13:54. > :13:56.admittedly before you became governor of Katanga, that the
:13:57. > :13:59.profits of mining in Katanga are serving to line the pockets of a
:14:00. > :14:03.small but powerful elite, politicians and businessmen who are
:14:04. > :14:07.exploiting the local population and subverting natural riches for their
:14:08. > :14:15.own private ends. So that is the kind of thing that is being said.
:14:16. > :14:24.The report is from before I became governor. I don't have any money.
:14:25. > :14:30.Make company is moving equipment, not mining. But for the mining
:14:31. > :14:35.business. And for transport which since 1974, it was a family
:14:36. > :14:40.business. It is something which I had before and it is sad for me. I
:14:41. > :14:46.didn't want to join politics. I wanted to continue with business. I
:14:47. > :14:51.worked and it changed things. When I went to the province, I went with my
:14:52. > :14:57.money, I went with my knowledge as a businessman. Supposed to defend
:14:58. > :15:03.first my family, myself and other business community which I did in
:15:04. > :15:09.the province, became the first and best province in all of Congo. I was
:15:10. > :15:14.just giving you the things that were said at about rich and powerful
:15:15. > :15:20.business people in the PRC. He said that within 2006 but Kofi Anand,
:15:21. > :15:25.former Secretary General of the UN, he is a member of the Africa
:15:26. > :15:29.progress panel and he described the world of mining in the DRC is a
:15:30. > :15:35.world in which vast fortunes seem to be cumulated at the expense of the
:15:36. > :15:41.people. Again, do you feel uncomfortable a bit that you are
:15:42. > :15:44.involved one way or another, transportation or whatever, in the
:15:45. > :15:54.mining business? It is not the governor of the province that gives
:15:55. > :16:02.the licence. Is the minister. I was not involved. At the time I was in
:16:03. > :16:08.business, I was not a politician. My father was not a politician. I come
:16:09. > :16:18.from a family which worked and the people appreciated to have a
:16:19. > :16:28.governor. I came into politics to help the people. I never got my
:16:29. > :16:33.salary in politics. I was giving to all the poor people the contribution
:16:34. > :16:43.about the social programme in my province. All right. I have to put
:16:44. > :16:49.to you a strong criticism. From the Paris-based human rights group. He
:16:50. > :16:56.alleges that patronage was rife during the two B's government. He
:16:57. > :17:05.didn't run the province like a statesman but rather like the head
:17:06. > :17:09.of a household. -- Moise Katumbi. Why President Kabila doesn't want me
:17:10. > :17:19.to go back because the people want me to go back. The time I became
:17:20. > :17:25.governor, I was in a maize meal. It was a $45. When I was a governor, I
:17:26. > :17:35.went in agriculture, a did all my best to do road, everything, school,
:17:36. > :17:45.from $45 amazed went up. Since a left, and maize shot up to $50 per
:17:46. > :17:52.bag. Now we have a police guy who is getting $60. How can you manage to
:17:53. > :17:58.buy at bag? You need minimum of two bags. When I was governor, maybe he
:17:59. > :18:02.didn't follow. You can go onto YouTube to follow in Paris, you can
:18:03. > :18:09.ask the people in Katanga. I did a lot of road, a did a lot of school
:18:10. > :18:15.and I think in all my country, everyone was asking for Moise
:18:16. > :18:21.Katumbi to go in all the province to stay. They asked resident Kabila for
:18:22. > :18:27.me to go in each province six months and showed the governors how to do
:18:28. > :18:30.things in the province. So you say that's the reason why President
:18:31. > :18:37.Kabila doesn't want you back in the country. You left last year. You
:18:38. > :18:41.said yourself that you are essentially forced into exile. There
:18:42. > :18:44.were also reports in the press that you might have been poisoned one way
:18:45. > :18:53.or another, that your health had been compromised. You up to this
:18:54. > :18:57.fight? At the moment fine. In my country, I don't know which place I
:18:58. > :19:03.was poisoned. What kind of poison? I can't talk about detail on the TV. I
:19:04. > :19:11.talked about it in the report from my doctors, everything. I went under
:19:12. > :19:16.treatment but because I don't know the guy, I can't tell you who
:19:17. > :19:24.poisoned me. I forgot about this because I suppose to already passed
:19:25. > :19:28.away. At the moment what is important for me is my country, is
:19:29. > :19:33.to serve that country and to remove all the suffering from the people of
:19:34. > :19:37.Congo. And your health is not being compromised, you are fit enough for
:19:38. > :19:42.this fight? I was playing football two days ago. With your football
:19:43. > :19:48.team. The point I am making here is the director of the Congo research
:19:49. > :19:53.group at New York University, he says the two biggest figures were
:19:54. > :19:57.Etienne Tshisekedi and Moise Katumbi. Now Etienne Tshisekedi is
:19:58. > :20:06.dead and Moise Katumbi is in exile. That really leaves the opposition
:20:07. > :20:18.weekend. President Kabila has outmanoeuvred you. I was in exile. I
:20:19. > :20:24.think I was number one candidate in exile. Because of my job which I did
:20:25. > :20:29.in my country, they tried to accuse me and insult me every day on the TV
:20:30. > :20:37.so they can finish me politically which they can't do because what I
:20:38. > :20:44.did for my brother's Congolese, I did a great job. I want to go back.
:20:45. > :20:50.Finish with my report or I will go back and I announced myself I will
:20:51. > :21:00.go back with the body of Etienne Tshisekedi. You will go back with
:21:01. > :21:04.his body? You mentioned CENCO. They are conducting an investigation into
:21:05. > :21:08.whatever charges the government is bringing against you. Will you abide
:21:09. > :21:14.by their verdict, whatever it is? Ryan Bowen to agree. Moise Katumbi
:21:15. > :21:19.is not a man looking for a job. -- yes, I am going to agree. When there
:21:20. > :21:27.was this agreement, there was first some recommendation for the people
:21:28. > :21:31.which was one of the condition for me to go back from exile. Before
:21:32. > :21:35.they signed the agreement I said no, I don't want to stop the country
:21:36. > :21:40.because President Kabila doesn't want me to go back. What is
:21:41. > :21:46.important for me is first of the country. Let's sign the agreement, I
:21:47. > :21:51.love my country, I want this agreement to go and President Kabila
:21:52. > :21:56.doesn't stop up till now. He is making tactics to go to the
:21:57. > :22:00.referendum. But that is why he is out manoeuvring you. That's what I'm
:22:01. > :22:04.saying. When will you go back? You said you might go back with the body
:22:05. > :22:11.of Etienne Tshisekedi. One month? Two months? Three months? I gave a
:22:12. > :22:22.condition. I said to Moise Katumbi --I said Moise Katumbi to be
:22:23. > :22:26.supposed to take my case. -- CENCO. A am waiting for that report as
:22:27. > :22:35.quick as possible. I am going to go back because I am innocent. The
:22:36. > :22:39.people killing in Congo and the people stealing in Congo, they are
:22:40. > :22:44.supposed to be in jail. Two thirds of the 80 million population in the
:22:45. > :22:50.DRC live in poverty. 5.4 million have died when the war started in
:22:51. > :22:55.the 1990s. You mentioned the continuing violence. He said back in
:22:56. > :23:01.March 2013 that you had no political ambitions. At the end of my term I
:23:02. > :23:07.will return as the manager of a football club. I will return from my
:23:08. > :23:10.job. What changed your mind? I was thinking President Kabila was
:23:11. > :23:15.supposed to leave power to respect his second term. He didn't respect
:23:16. > :23:26.it and I after Dwight. The majority of the people came to see me. --I
:23:27. > :23:35.ask why. I resigned as a governor so President Kabila wanted to continue
:23:36. > :23:40.to change because to Chuxi. I said for that... That's why you wanted to
:23:41. > :23:48.go back? To serve my people. In for that... That's why you wanted to
:23:49. > :23:54.go back? To serve my people. in 20 seconds, can you do it for the
:23:55. > :23:59.people? Do you have the vision? If they didn't have programme, I wasn't
:24:00. > :24:07.supposed to be here to talk about my country. -- if I didn't. Moise
:24:08. > :24:22.Katumbi, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:23. > :24:26.The start of the week brought a mixture of sunshine and showers,
:24:27. > :24:36.but we were very close to some severe and potentially damaging
:24:37. > :24:39.Just across the way, in Brittany, a gust approaching 120 mph.