0:00:07 > 0:00:08Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe is 93 years old.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16His wife recently suggested he could win re-election
0:00:16 > 0:00:19as a corpse.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21But failing that, Zimbabwe needs to grapple with
0:00:21 > 0:00:23the issue of succession.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26And will follow Mugabe?
0:00:26 > 0:00:28My guest is his former Vice President and one-time heir
0:00:28 > 0:00:30apparent Joice Mujuru.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34She broke away from the ruling party two years ago and now
0:00:34 > 0:00:37leads her own opposition party, but how tainted is she by her long
0:00:37 > 0:00:42association with Robert Mugabe?
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Joice Mujuru, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17How can you persuade the Zimbabwean people that you are an agent
0:01:17 > 0:01:20of change when for most of your adult life you've been one
0:01:20 > 0:01:29of Robert Mugabe's most loyal allies and associates?
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Thank you very much.
0:01:32 > 0:01:37The way how I left Zanu PF did not go down well with the rest
0:01:37 > 0:01:45of the country, because I never replied, I never did anything.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49But they know me, even during the Robert Mugabe government,
0:01:49 > 0:01:54that as much as I was loyal to my party, which I fought for,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58I was also loyal to Zimbabweans because when I ran ministries
0:01:58 > 0:02:06they know the relationship that I was building with them.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09You have a record, that's true, for more than a decade
0:02:09 > 0:02:12you were Vice President of the country, which during that
0:02:12 > 0:02:15time fell into the most terrible economic crisis to the point
0:02:15 > 0:02:19where today a quarter of your entire population is dependent
0:02:19 > 0:02:22on humanitarian aid.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25More than half of all Zimbabwe's workers are actually working
0:02:25 > 0:02:28outside the country.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32Your economy and your politics are in the most terrible mess.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36And that is your legacy, as well as Robert Mugabe's.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40True, because I was in government, yes I have to be associated
0:02:40 > 0:02:43with that failure.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47But they know whilst I was in government running social
0:02:47 > 0:02:51ministries I was never in the office, I was always
0:02:51 > 0:02:57with the people trying to introduce programmes and businesses.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01I was one of the business associates whilst I was in government to try
0:03:01 > 0:03:07and show them that I was for the better part of the country.
0:03:07 > 0:03:08It comes down to credibility, though.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11When you left, actually you were expelled from Zanu PF
0:03:11 > 0:03:15and you set up your own party, which of course now has sort
0:03:15 > 0:03:17of collapsed and you've got another party.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19But when you first left you said this: together,
0:03:19 > 0:03:22you said, we can build Zimbabwe into a modern democratic state
0:03:22 > 0:03:25with a vibrant economy where every citizen is responsible for peace,
0:03:25 > 0:03:29for freedom, democracy and we can prosper.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33Yes.
0:03:33 > 0:03:34Let's look at the record.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37You were a minister during massacres.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Gukurahundi.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Yes, I was Minister of Women Affairs.
0:03:42 > 0:03:4520,000 Matabele people killed. I was Minister of Women Affairs.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50You knew it. You did not say a word against it.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54I did not say a word against it but those were executive orders that
0:03:54 > 0:03:58were used by the Fifth Brigade, and I'm sure with an executive
0:03:58 > 0:04:03person what else would you do?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06But, I'm sorry, how can you persuade the citizens that you believe
0:04:06 > 0:04:10in freedom, democracy, prosperity when your record
0:04:10 > 0:04:12is so appalling.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14You didn't walk away from government.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16You never stood up to Robert Mugabe.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Zimbabweans, as much as we would know they would not
0:04:19 > 0:04:23forget what they have gone through.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26But what they are looking forward to now is a good future.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28They are now futuristic.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31They judge people on their record. They judge...
0:04:31 > 0:04:32Hang on.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35In the past you've tried to say you didn't even know
0:04:35 > 0:04:37that the Gukurahundi killings were happening.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Are you now prepared to say that is not true?
0:04:40 > 0:04:42You certainly knew, you just did nothing about it.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46You know, when they ask me about it, because I said by association
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I was in government, but when you say when it was being
0:04:49 > 0:04:54planned, no planning and by association is totally different.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57With all respect, Mrs Mujuru, your husband Solomon Mujuru was one
0:04:57 > 0:05:00of the most senior commanders in the Armed Forces.
0:05:00 > 0:05:01Yes.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02But what...
0:05:02 > 0:05:04So you obviously knew what was going on.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08What I know about Solomon Mujuru and the Fifth Brigade was not part
0:05:08 > 0:05:10of the Armed Forces.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15It was a brigade that was commended outside the Army.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20He only was involved when this was to be integrated into the Army.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23That's what I knew. He knew and you knew.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25That's the bottom line.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28And the Zimbabwean people have to judge you for what you did.
0:05:28 > 0:05:29Yes, they will judge.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33They will judge somebody for what she or he will have done physically.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35They will judge.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39They will judge, I think, a person's ethics and morals.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Let's talk about different challenges you faced in government.
0:05:42 > 0:05:472005, the Mugabe government's decision to clean out
0:05:47 > 0:05:50many of the poor people living in an official housing
0:05:50 > 0:05:54in urban areas.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people rendered homeless.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Many killed as well.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03You knew about that too.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05What did you do about that?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08There are a lot of things that I did not agree with.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11A lot of things that I did not go along with.
0:06:11 > 0:06:12Policies.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13Yes.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15You've described Robert Mugabe as a father figure.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19You have said that you felt he was grooming you to be the next
0:06:19 > 0:06:20president of Zimbabwe.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23So, you clearly were very happy to be part of a regime
0:06:23 > 0:06:25that was undertaking this sort of policy.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28It was the situation then when I was working with him.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30And I wanted to show that things can change.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32Even if they are not right.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36Things were only changing for the worse as far as I can see.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Today we can give an example of Tanzania.
0:06:38 > 0:06:38Well, look...
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Today we can give an example of China.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44The thing is we don't need to look at other examples.
0:06:44 > 0:06:44Yes!
0:06:44 > 0:06:46We can look at what happened.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Because what I wanted to do was to change things from within.
0:06:49 > 0:06:50But it never happened.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53And I will tell you, with the programmes that I was doing
0:06:53 > 0:06:57and which I was never given a chance to do that,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01but I can tell you a few that I did which may be angered them and hence
0:07:01 > 0:07:05they labelled me a liberal.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07I'm just trying to get to grips with your relationship
0:07:07 > 0:07:08with Robert Mugabe.
0:07:08 > 0:07:08Yeah.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12You told the South African Broadcasting Corporation just
0:07:12 > 0:07:15a month or two ago, you said that you still have respect
0:07:15 > 0:07:19for Robert Mugabe, and that you, and this is something that you said
0:07:19 > 0:07:22to them, that you are prepared to forgive him for things
0:07:22 > 0:07:23he has done.
0:07:23 > 0:07:24to Robert Mugabe.
0:07:24 > 0:07:25You're not a victim.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28You're somebody who benefited from Robert Mugabe's policies.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32You were one of his most trusted ministers.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34I will tell you.
0:07:34 > 0:07:39My party is not for retribution. We are for restitution.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43So, what we are trying to do is how best we can move forward.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45We're not going to ask them to forget.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49But we are going to ask them to look for a way how Zimbabwe
0:07:49 > 0:07:50can move forward.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53Because, if we continue to live in the past it means
0:07:53 > 0:07:57will make another move.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Do you believe in justice? I do.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Do you believe that all of those Zimbabweans who have suffered
0:08:03 > 0:08:06at the hands of the Mugabe regime, for all of the different policies,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09some of which I've just outlined, should they be justice?
0:08:09 > 0:08:13I've already started that. You won't believe me.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17I've been to Matabele more than seven times as from the end
0:08:17 > 0:08:20of last year and this year trying to show them that,
0:08:20 > 0:08:24you know what, when we are in this situation it doesn't mean you agree
0:08:24 > 0:08:26with everything, it doesn't mean you know everything.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30But this is how you can judge me now as Joice Mujuru with her party,
0:08:30 > 0:08:33National People's Party.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37The thing is in Matabeleland they don't believe you, do they?
0:08:37 > 0:08:39Activist Israel Dube, who is a leading campaigner
0:08:39 > 0:08:41for Matabeleland, writes, he said this of your attempt
0:08:41 > 0:08:46to reach out to his people.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49He said, "The people here will not be fooled.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53How can a Zanu PF top official, the wife of one of the most
0:08:53 > 0:08:56high-ranking national army commanders claim that she didn't
0:08:56 > 0:09:00know what happened to my people?
0:09:00 > 0:09:02She must have been blind or deaf, or both.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04She is bound by collective responsibility."
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Let me tell you.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11By collective responsibility, yes, because I was in government.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14But I've been to Matabeleland, I've also met activists,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16and we have been talking and they have been asking questions
0:09:16 > 0:09:19and I've been meeting chiefs.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24You know, the reason why I'm this bold to go and meet these chiefs,
0:09:24 > 0:09:30it means a heart in its correct place.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32You say you...
0:09:32 > 0:09:35If I had my own way I would have done it differently.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39But now that I've got my own party to tell you the truth,
0:09:39 > 0:09:41I'm very happy to meet those people.
0:09:41 > 0:09:46I'm very happy to tell them that not everything that people in government
0:09:46 > 0:09:50might have taken a role, physical role, but they will be
0:09:50 > 0:09:55with association, yes, like me.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59We'll get to your new party later. Yes.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01But let's stick with the idea of justice.
0:10:01 > 0:10:02Yes.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05Do you think that those who profited, profited to a massive
0:10:05 > 0:10:07extent from corrupt practices during the Mugabe years,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10they should be held to account, shouldn't they?
0:10:10 > 0:10:13We know corruption has done a lot of damage to the economy
0:10:13 > 0:10:17and corruption is the worst thing, it's the enemy of what is existing
0:10:17 > 0:10:20in Zimbabwe today.
0:10:20 > 0:10:25So are you prepared now to confess? Oh, yes.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27To your own corrupt behaviours. Because, I haven't...
0:10:27 > 0:10:28Uh...
0:10:28 > 0:10:32If I was corrupt with all what I've gone through people should have
0:10:32 > 0:10:33taken me in to court.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35In the interests of transparency then, let's just establish
0:10:35 > 0:10:36a few facts.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38Yes.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42How much are you worth? I only have a house.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45I only run on a farm, a farm which I'm still now
0:10:45 > 0:10:48negotiating with the owner.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52And to tell you the truth I'm very free to take everything down
0:10:52 > 0:10:57and Zimbabwe will know who I am because I'm not a rich person.
0:10:57 > 0:10:58You don't mention diamond mines.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01We know for a fact your husband Solomon Mujuru.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Yes.
0:11:03 > 0:11:05He owned vast diamond mining interests.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08We know from various scandals, frankly, involving your daughter
0:11:08 > 0:11:12and allegations against you personally that hundreds
0:11:12 > 0:11:15of thousands of dollars' worth of diamonds and gold,
0:11:15 > 0:11:20un-certificated, were presented to European dealers on your behalf.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25Now, I just wonder where you got the diamonds and the gold from.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28Do you think if I had all that richness I would be
0:11:28 > 0:11:32suffering this much?
0:11:32 > 0:11:36Do you think since Mujuru died six years ago and they have now gone
0:11:36 > 0:11:40trust his estate they wouldn't have said something about how rich he is?
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Well, it's not just about your husband.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Knowing Zimbabwe government... Human Rights Watch...
0:11:46 > 0:11:48Knowing Zimbabwe... Hang on.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Let's just lay the facts on the table.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Human Rights Watch 2009 wrote a report where they interviewed
0:11:52 > 0:11:55a number of miners in one of Zimbabwe's biggest minefields.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59They said to Human Rights Watch, "We named a portion of the diamond
0:11:59 > 0:12:04fields after Mrs Mujuru, they called it Mujuru's ant hill
0:12:04 > 0:12:08because on several nights trucks would go there and we were told
0:12:08 > 0:12:11by the police that the portion there belongs to the Vice President,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Mrs Mujuru.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19If you go through the Cabinet if you had a chance it came
0:12:19 > 0:12:23to the Cabinet and because next to Chiadzwa I was running
0:12:23 > 0:12:28a community programme, which was producing horticultural
0:12:28 > 0:12:33produce which was being sold here in London.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35These weren't gardeners. No.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37These were diamond mines. No, no, no, no.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38I'm telling....
0:12:38 > 0:12:42And the part of the mine that they worked on was known
0:12:42 > 0:12:43as Mrs Mujuru's ant hill.
0:12:43 > 0:12:44I'm telling you the joke...
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I'm telling you the joke about the ant hill.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51It's a joke, because after they had heard that I had that they went
0:12:51 > 0:12:54to investigate as a Cabinet team, which was set by the whole Cabinet,
0:12:54 > 0:12:56and they discovered that it was a joke.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58Because these people never saw me there.
0:12:58 > 0:12:59I've never been a miner.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02I've never owned any thing in terms of business.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05So they said no, no, no, these were jokes that
0:13:05 > 0:13:07were going through between the two communities because
0:13:07 > 0:13:09they stay side-by-side.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11And they were saying, though, you changed our life
0:13:11 > 0:13:15through the horticultural project in the Cashel Valley.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19Well, it's interesting you focus on horticulture.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21The record focuses on diamond and on gold.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Yes, that's why...
0:13:23 > 0:13:25There's a company called First Star Europe.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27Are you aware of them? No!
0:13:27 > 0:13:30I've never been involved in any thing to do with diamonds.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Well, clearly you must be aware of First Star Europe because they...
0:13:33 > 0:13:37I heard about it because I've never seen people coming to talk
0:13:37 > 0:13:38to me about it.
0:13:38 > 0:13:39They were approached by your daughter.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42They were approached about a massive deal in gold.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45It turned out to be Congolese gold. But why is it...?
0:13:45 > 0:13:47The company discovered that you were behind
0:13:47 > 0:13:48many of the transactions.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49No...
0:13:49 > 0:13:52And they refused to deal with your daughter or with
0:13:52 > 0:13:54you because you were on a sanctions list.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56You know all of this. No, no, no, no.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59I'm telling you, these are rumours. These are social media talks.
0:13:59 > 0:14:00If I was involved...
0:14:00 > 0:14:04We have on the records statements from this company First Star saying
0:14:04 > 0:14:06that they discovered that you were behind the deal,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09they wanted nothing more to do with it and they put
0:14:09 > 0:14:11you and your daughter on a blacklist.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13That's not a social media rumour.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15I'm telling you because I'm not involved.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17I wasn't involved.
0:14:17 > 0:14:22If I was involved, how would I beat this much free from such
0:14:22 > 0:14:25a terrible incident?
0:14:25 > 0:14:28How?
0:14:28 > 0:14:31I suppose the people who will judge this other people
0:14:31 > 0:14:32of Zimbabwe, aren't they?
0:14:32 > 0:14:33Yes, they will.
0:14:33 > 0:14:34They know who I am.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37I've nothing to hide.
0:14:37 > 0:14:38And they know where you live. Yes.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41You live on Alamein Farm. Oh, yeah, Alamein Farm.
0:14:41 > 0:14:433500 hectares. Number 4 Springfield Road.
0:14:43 > 0:14:43Yes.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47That, of course, was owned by a white farmer.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Yes, who is a friend of mine.
0:14:49 > 0:14:50Guy Watson-Smith. Yes.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Well, you say he is a friend of yours.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54He's been seeking compensation from you.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56You have not yet paid him.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59I will show you the e-mails, including this morning's e-mail.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01I'm on an e-mail basis with Guy Watson.
0:15:01 > 0:15:02Yes, because he wants his money.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06But I looked for him.
0:15:07 > 0:15:08He never, he never looked for me.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11You have said on the record... I looked for him...
0:15:11 > 0:15:14It wasn't fair, you said. Yes.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17I want to give him what is due to him.
0:15:17 > 0:15:17Yes, yes.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19How much have you given him?
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Not yet because the programme is still...
0:15:21 > 0:15:22Not yet? Yes.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24Because I didn't give the date.
0:15:24 > 0:15:24I didn't do anything.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27But what we agreed was this thing was supposed
0:15:27 > 0:15:30to be done according to the laws of Zimbabwe.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32He is owed for all of the assets. Yes.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Not the land itself but the movable assets.
0:15:34 > 0:15:35Yes.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37He's owed, as I understand it, over $1.5 million.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39When are you going to pay him?
0:15:39 > 0:15:43That is between me and Guy Watson, because we are discussing as to how
0:15:43 > 0:15:44that should be handled.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47This issue of putting it on air is the one that
0:15:47 > 0:15:50is being abused by the people in the media, because they know
0:15:51 > 0:15:53that once we say that, and if there is any
0:15:53 > 0:16:00glitch or hitch, and then they will come back to both of them and say,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02why is it that you haven't been paid?
0:16:02 > 0:16:05It's because I don't have cash at the moment.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07You don't have cash? No, no, no.
0:16:07 > 0:16:08I don't have cash. Well...
0:16:08 > 0:16:12But what we do have is the arrangement that we have to organise
0:16:12 > 0:16:16the two of us, and we are in agreement as to how things have to
0:16:16 > 0:16:17be handled.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19So, let us be clear then. Yes.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22When you say it wasn't fair the way you acquired the land,
0:16:22 > 0:16:25are you saying that the entire confiscation programme run by the
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Mugabe government, which let's remind ourselves, you were a very
0:16:28 > 0:16:31senior minister of, going back to 2000 when the confiscation
0:16:31 > 0:16:34white farmland began, you're saying that was entirely wrong, are you?
0:16:34 > 0:16:36Because I never even took a farm for myself.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39That was through inheritance the way how I got Gaya's farm.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44How many farms do you own?
0:16:44 > 0:16:45Your family. Your family.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47My family? Yes.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49As Mujuru family? Yes.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50Just that one. Just that one?
0:16:50 > 0:16:53You know, I lost two farms in Shamba.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57I got Alamein Farm through inheritance.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00See, many of the families at the top of Zanu PF own
0:17:00 > 0:17:01a multiple farms.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03I have never acquired a farm.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04I got Alamein Farm through inheritance.
0:17:04 > 0:17:05Are you saying...?
0:17:05 > 0:17:08And the family lost two farms which they had.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10You see, you're running for office. Yes.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12I think you want to run ultimately for President.
0:17:12 > 0:17:12Yes, yes.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15So, are you saying to the people of Zimbabwe
0:17:15 > 0:17:19that if you win power you will either return the land to their
0:17:19 > 0:17:20original owners, or you will offer
0:17:20 > 0:17:27fair compensation to every white farmer?
0:17:27 > 0:17:29Is that what you're saying?
0:17:29 > 0:17:30Yes, fair compensation.
0:17:30 > 0:17:32There is a law to that.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34We are for constitutionalism, the constitution has to be followed
0:17:34 > 0:17:37and we know personal rights, you know, rights, have to be
0:17:37 > 0:17:42respected so property rights have to be respected.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46We don't want to take things for granted.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Because it's hard for somebody to come up with something
0:17:49 > 0:17:53for the family.
0:17:53 > 0:17:58What about the indigenisation programme?
0:17:58 > 0:18:01We've talked earlier about the failings, the disastrous
0:18:01 > 0:18:02state of the Zimbabwean economy.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05One of the things which makes it very difficult for foreign direct
0:18:05 > 0:18:08investment to come into your country are now the rules
0:18:08 > 0:18:09on what's called indigenisation.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11Would you roll all of those back too?
0:18:11 > 0:18:13That we have already spoken about it.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16As the party that we are going to repeal it.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19We are going to repeal it because we are for investment.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22We want investors, both local and international to come and help
0:18:22 > 0:18:27us as we are rebuilding our economy.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29You see, I'm still struggling on this.
0:18:29 > 0:18:29Yeah.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Everything you said suggests to me that on every policy issue,
0:18:32 > 0:18:34every strategy, every human rights abuse, you post,
0:18:35 > 0:18:36albeit privately, everything that Robert Mugabe did.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40But there you sat by his side as his deputy and Vice President
0:18:40 > 0:18:41from 2004 to 2014.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44It doesn't mean I agreed with him.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46It doesn't mean I agreed with him.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51But it gets even more dysfunctional because in 2011 your husband
0:18:51 > 0:18:58Solomon Mujuru, who we have talked about, he was burned to death
0:18:58 > 0:18:59at the farm that we've just discussed.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03Now, he, according to many people in Zimbabwe, didn't die by accident,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06he was murdered.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10You say you believe he was murdered by people connected to the Mugabe
0:19:10 > 0:19:13regime, and yet for three more years you still served as Vice President.
0:19:13 > 0:19:14How could you?
0:19:14 > 0:19:17I am telling you, I fought in that party.
0:19:17 > 0:19:26I wanted to change from within.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29If you follow issues and programmes that I did I thought
0:19:29 > 0:19:30I was going to win.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34That's why nine out of ten provinces had decided to do what they thought
0:19:34 > 0:19:37was right and chose the leadership that they wanted, which Mugabe
0:19:37 > 0:19:40did not like and that leadership was in support of me.
0:19:40 > 0:19:48How could you, just a few months ago, describe Robert Mugabe
0:19:48 > 0:19:52as a father figure when you seem to believe that people close to him
0:19:52 > 0:19:54are responsible for the murder of your husband?
0:19:54 > 0:19:57He appeared to be a father figure to me.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59And that I should not run away from.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Because during this trouble these were people who were giving
0:20:01 > 0:20:04leadership to everyone who was in this trouble.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06And, mind you, according to our custom these other respects
0:20:06 > 0:20:08that we give to our seniors.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10It calls into question your judgment.
0:20:10 > 0:20:10About Mugabe?
0:20:10 > 0:20:13About everything.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Everything we've discussed.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18It is hard to understand how your political career makes any
0:20:18 > 0:20:25sense at all.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27If you have morals, ethics, principles it's very hard
0:20:27 > 0:20:29to understand anything you have done.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31The issue is you have never been to Zimbabwe.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34The issue is you have never seen what personally I have done
0:20:34 > 0:20:36for the country of Zimbabwe.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39The issue is you have never come to Zimbabwe to interview
0:20:39 > 0:20:43for yourself those people to say, how do you take Joice as a person?
0:20:43 > 0:20:45Well, actually I have been to Zimbabwe and I have
0:20:45 > 0:20:46reported from Zimbabwe.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48You have not... You have not...
0:20:48 > 0:20:49You have been...
0:20:49 > 0:20:53So I think I have a little bit of an idea how Zimbabwe
0:20:53 > 0:20:53and politics works.
0:20:53 > 0:20:54So, let's...
0:20:54 > 0:20:55We don't have much time.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Let's get to the future.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00You have been there but you have not asked about me.
0:21:00 > 0:21:01Well, I have, actually.
0:21:01 > 0:21:01No.
0:21:01 > 0:21:02Yes, I have. No.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05CHUCKLES
0:21:05 > 0:21:06Let's talk about the future.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09You've laid out and discussed your record You seem to believe that
0:21:09 > 0:21:12as a record that will appeal to the people of Zimbabwe.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14You set up a party, Zimbabwe People First,
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and within a year of setting it up there was infighting,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21there was division and the party has collapsed with some of its senior
0:21:21 > 0:21:23figures, including a former minister, Didymus Mutasa,
0:21:23 > 0:21:25accusing you of being dictatorial and expelling
0:21:25 > 0:21:26you from your own party.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30It wasn't... We expelled them...
0:21:30 > 0:21:40Because right now, ask who has the people.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42Who formed National People's Party?
0:21:42 > 0:21:43Where have they come from?
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Half of them have been people who have never been in politics
0:21:46 > 0:21:50and if they didn't want to be boggled down by things of the past.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54And the other half is comprised of people who have come from other
0:21:54 > 0:21:55parties to form National People's Party.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59The people you set up this party with now say you are impossible
0:21:59 > 0:22:00to work with.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02You've changed the name of your own
0:22:02 > 0:22:06party to the National People's Party.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Are you prepared to work with perhaps the best-known
0:22:08 > 0:22:11opposition figure in Zimbabwe, Morgan Tsvangirai, as a joint ticket
0:22:11 > 0:22:14to run for President against Mugabe if he runs in 2018,
0:22:14 > 0:22:16you will run with Tsvangirai, will you?
0:22:16 > 0:22:18Excellent, because we've already started talking about coalition.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20And who will take the ticket?
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Who will actually run for President, you or Tsvangirai, under
0:22:23 > 0:22:23this coalition agreement?
0:22:23 > 0:22:27It's part of the process that we are carrying on right now,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30which I can't say who is who because it's part of the results
0:22:30 > 0:22:32that we're going to come up with.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35But between Morgan and myself, we are working together very well.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37We have done a few, you know, addresses together,
0:22:38 > 0:22:42a few demonstrations together.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45And right now we are actually working on a road map,
0:22:46 > 0:22:48MoU, so that we are able to work together.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Would you accept Morgan Tsvangirai being the head, the leader,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54the figurehead of this movement and being the candidate
0:22:54 > 0:23:00for President in 2018?
0:23:00 > 0:23:01Anyone.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Anyone who is chosen according to our discussion I will be able
0:23:04 > 0:23:05to work with.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07The former finance minister Tendai Biti says Zimbabwe
0:23:07 > 0:23:10is an unstable, fragile state that is on the verge of implosion.
0:23:10 > 0:23:11Would you agree with that?
0:23:11 > 0:23:12That is his analysis.
0:23:12 > 0:23:18You know Biti has been a minister of finance.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20Yes.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21And he understands. Yes.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23What has been going on.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26The mess that has been made of your country over the last,
0:23:26 > 0:23:28let's say 20 years, at least.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30He would tell you exactly what happened during his time
0:23:31 > 0:23:32of office as Minister of Finance.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36He would be the better person because if I tell you myself
0:23:36 > 0:23:39you might say you are singing your former party's song.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42But ask some of those people whom I was working
0:23:42 > 0:23:44with, including Tendai.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48In a word, you oversaw the collapse of Zimbabwe.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Do you really think you're the right person
0:23:50 > 0:23:55to oversee its revitalisation?
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Yes, because I know how to change.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I know how to involve people who matter and these other people
0:24:00 > 0:24:02who have come to work with me.
0:24:02 > 0:24:04All right, Joice Mujuru, thank you very much.
0:24:04 > 0:24:05Thank you very much.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Thanks for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Thank you. My pleasure.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35Good evening.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39We've got a lot of largely dry and pretty mild weather on the cards
0:24:39 > 0:24:41for much of the week ahead.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44But, with clear skies Sunday night, Monday morning starts on quite