:00:00. > :00:08.Coming up next for you, it's HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi, in the US state of Florida.
:00:19. > :00:22.My guest is one of the most popular politicians in contemporary US
:00:23. > :00:26.history. He is Senator Bob Graham, the former governor of Florida who
:00:27. > :00:31.also served three terms in the U.S. Senate. But with Donald Trump in the
:00:32. > :00:35.White House and the Republicans controlling capital Hill, have
:00:36. > :01:04.Democrats like him lost the political arguments?
:01:05. > :01:10.Senator Bob Graham, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much, I
:01:11. > :01:14.appreciate you coming to this side of the Atlantic. Thank you. You have
:01:15. > :01:20.spent most of your life in public service as a politician. Does that
:01:21. > :01:25.make you a professional politician? In some places that's considered a
:01:26. > :01:31.pejorative. I think that being a politician in a democracy is one of
:01:32. > :01:34.the highest callings. You have the responsibility to make this
:01:35. > :01:37.difficult system of government work for the benefit of the people. And
:01:38. > :01:42.if that makes you a professional politician, so much the better. You
:01:43. > :01:46.have somebody in the White House now who has styled himself as the anti-
:01:47. > :01:53.politician, Donald Trump, businessmen, and that has kind of
:01:54. > :02:00.resonated quite well with a lot of voters. -- businessman. Politicians
:02:01. > :02:04.are not always held in high esteem. Yes, and there has been a vein of
:02:05. > :02:09.American political leadership which has prided itself in not having any
:02:10. > :02:13.previous experience in politics all government before they were elected.
:02:14. > :02:20.The results of that have been somewhat mixed. I personally think
:02:21. > :02:24.that if you have open-heart surgery you wouldn't want to be the first
:02:25. > :02:29.person that that position had ever operated on, and I think in
:02:30. > :02:35.politics, there is some benefit in having experience and having dealt
:02:36. > :02:40.with similar individuals and issues, and we can bring all of that to the
:02:41. > :02:45.best resolution of the problem moving forward. So you are saying
:02:46. > :02:49.Donald Trump does not have the right experience to do the job he is doing
:02:50. > :02:53.now? Well, I think he would be better off in some of his actions in
:02:54. > :02:59.the first 50 days of his presidency illustrate this, if he had had some
:03:00. > :03:03.previous political experience. Has he packed his Cabinet with lots of
:03:04. > :03:06.business people and so on, successful people like Rex
:03:07. > :03:11.Tillerson, who had a very polishing career as an oil executive. I mean,
:03:12. > :03:14.these are people who have got things done, and it is good to introduce
:03:15. > :03:23.cloud like that into the political system. -- blood like that. I
:03:24. > :03:27.believe that having had some experience doing the job for which
:03:28. > :03:32.you have just been elected is advantageous. So were you surprised
:03:33. > :03:38.when Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton by just over 1% in the
:03:39. > :03:43.presidential election? Because Florida is not natural Republican
:03:44. > :03:47.territory. It was Democrat under Barack Obama, and George W bush won
:03:48. > :03:55.it by just a few votes. Were you surprised and disappointed? Yes, I
:03:56. > :03:59.was surprised and disappointed. I thought Hillary Clinton was uniquely
:04:00. > :04:04.prepared to be president of the United States at a very challenging
:04:05. > :04:09.time. But I think one of the lessons, and there are a number of
:04:10. > :04:16.lessons from the 2016 election, was that Trump, or people on his behalf,
:04:17. > :04:21.had been listening to what the American people were saying, and
:04:22. > :04:24.what they were hearing was that many people felt that the government had
:04:25. > :04:28.forgotten about them and disrespected them, was not dealing
:04:29. > :04:38.with the issues that affected their lives, particularly economic issues.
:04:39. > :04:41.Trump, and Senator Sanders on the Democratic side, were the two
:04:42. > :04:46.candidates who did listen and they spoke to those concerns. I think one
:04:47. > :04:51.of the challenges for the Democratic Party is going to be to reconnect
:04:52. > :05:02.with what had been its most reliable source of support, working people
:05:03. > :05:07.who deal day today with those economic problems that caused them
:05:08. > :05:12.to be so distressed. -- day to day. So have the Democrats lost the plot?
:05:13. > :05:15.Barack Obama, after the defeat of Hillary Clinton by Donald Trump,
:05:16. > :05:19.said this, which is a very interesting quote. " We know that
:05:20. > :05:23.the Republicans have been very systematic in building from the
:05:24. > :05:26.ground up and communicating to state legislatures and financing school
:05:27. > :05:30.board races and public utility commission races, and you know I am
:05:31. > :05:35.a proud Democrat, but I do think we have a bias towards national issues
:05:36. > :05:42.and International is used". -- International issues. Correct, I
:05:43. > :05:46.bought -- I agree with President Obama. I believe we have lost touch
:05:47. > :05:49.with our core constituents. The message we were communicating was
:05:50. > :05:54.not something they were interested in listening to. We have a challenge
:05:55. > :05:59.to come up with some creative solutions to the issue of the
:06:00. > :06:05.forgotten Americans and the political skill to put those ideas
:06:06. > :06:08.into place. So do you think now about the kind of people in the
:06:09. > :06:12.United States who backed Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders and those
:06:13. > :06:17.who backed Donald Trump, that there is a divide there? You know, gay
:06:18. > :06:27.marriage, that kind of thing appeals to one group of people indie
:06:28. > :06:31.American population, others are more interested in economics. You think
:06:32. > :06:34.society is now polarised, or the think Democrats will move towards
:06:35. > :06:38.the kind of territory Trump is now occupying? I think there is a
:06:39. > :06:42.divide, but it is more in terms of how you express the issue rather
:06:43. > :06:50.than sharing common values on the issue. I think if you gave Senator
:06:51. > :06:57.Sanders and Hillary Clinton and exam on the key issues, and they would be
:06:58. > :07:05.in 90% of instances, their answers would be the same. But Bernie
:07:06. > :07:09.Sanders made those issues that he had heard people lamenting about the
:07:10. > :07:13.centrepiece of his campaign, and it was somewhat of a less important
:07:14. > :07:18.part of the message that Hillary Clinton communicated. I think that
:07:19. > :07:26.was a significant reason that Donald Trump was elected President. Do it
:07:27. > :07:29.Democrats like you, known as the dog house Democrats, because you are
:07:30. > :07:33.from the progressive wing of the party a few years ago, when you have
:07:34. > :07:36.the more conservative Democrats and you always in the doghouse with them
:07:37. > :07:40.because your liberal stance, you support things like the environment,
:07:41. > :07:44.you are very active in trying to get clean water in Florida and so on,
:07:45. > :07:49.but these issues again are not necessarily priorities for the
:07:50. > :07:53.American people. The pew research survey did a survey in July 2016,
:07:54. > :07:57.before the election, and out of 14 issues, the environment was number
:07:58. > :08:01.12 out of 14. The top issues were things like economy, jobs,
:08:02. > :08:05.healthcare, education, which are the very subjects Donald Trump is
:08:06. > :08:09.focused on. He says, you know, unemployment was only 4.7% in
:08:10. > :08:13.February, I am bringing jobs in. He is hitting the right notes. Yes,
:08:14. > :08:20.clearly he was hitting the right notes. I also believe he took the
:08:21. > :08:27.opportunities that were available to him to localise it, to say, well,
:08:28. > :08:31.this is not just a theory. I am concerned about the people in
:08:32. > :08:38.Indiana who have worked this company that is about to move to thousands
:08:39. > :08:42.jobs to Mexico. -- 2000 jobs. He took a general issue and put it in a
:08:43. > :08:46.very specific, tangible, understandable setting, and said, as
:08:47. > :08:51.president I am going to do something about it, such as changing our trade
:08:52. > :08:55.relationships with Mexico. Do you think he is striking the right note
:08:56. > :09:02.when, for example, he accuses the Obama admin is to -- Administration
:09:03. > :09:11.of, during the election, budding Trump Tower. No... He tweeted that
:09:12. > :09:15.Obama was either bad or sick. You do not have to resort to schoolyard
:09:16. > :09:22.yelling and defamation of other people in order to listen to people
:09:23. > :09:26.and understands what they are fundamental concerns are, and show
:09:27. > :09:32.that you care about those people. I think that President Trump has
:09:33. > :09:37.fallen into a pattern of making this very emotional, in this case, he has
:09:38. > :09:42.just called the former president of the United States a criminal because
:09:43. > :09:48.of wiretapping without going through a judicial process, which is a
:09:49. > :09:54.crime, and he has... Overstepped the line? He has a responsibility to
:09:55. > :09:58.make some basis on making that charge, and to be able to back up
:09:59. > :10:02.that basis. It has been over ten days since he has done this and he
:10:03. > :10:10.is yet to come forward and say, here is why I feel that President Obama
:10:11. > :10:14.committed this criminal act. James Kearney, the head of the FBI, has
:10:15. > :10:23.dismissed the claim. -- James Kearney. -- Comey. There has been
:10:24. > :10:27.quite a lot of invective held at the US intelligence agencies by Donald
:10:28. > :10:30.Trump, in particular over the alleged leaking by them of certain
:10:31. > :10:37.activities that he undertook in Moscow. Is it good for a president
:10:38. > :10:41.to be a plain speaker like that Lord do you think it is dangerous,
:10:42. > :10:49.because he needs to keep the intelligence establishment on side?
:10:50. > :10:53.-- like that, or do you think. It is not only bad practice. It is an
:10:54. > :10:56.assault against our national security for the President to have
:10:57. > :11:00.such a toxic relationship of the intelligence community. The purpose
:11:01. > :11:04.of the intelligence community, primarily, is to inform
:11:05. > :11:10.decision-makers and especially the president of the United States, as
:11:11. > :11:15.commander-in-chief, on issues that might threaten the security of the
:11:16. > :11:19.American people. If there is not a relationship of trust and respect
:11:20. > :11:23.between the President and the intelligence community leadership,
:11:24. > :11:30.we have just wasted tens of billions of dollars every year as we try to
:11:31. > :11:34.collect the information that will put the President in the best
:11:35. > :11:40.position to make wise decisions that are beneficial to world peace and to
:11:41. > :11:46.the security of Americans. You are calling for a bipartisan, bicameral
:11:47. > :11:55.enquiry into quite what Donald Trump and his colleagues' links to Russia
:11:56. > :11:59.were during and after the election. We already have some enquiries, the
:12:00. > :12:04.FBI is doing one. Isn't that enough? Do we need any more? I have
:12:05. > :12:07.advocated that the existing intelligence committees in the house
:12:08. > :12:15.and the senate take the first shot at doubling the information. That is
:12:16. > :12:18.what happened after 9/11. For the first two years, the committees of
:12:19. > :12:22.Congress were responsible for gathering the information about what
:12:23. > :12:26.happened. Then it was turned over to a citizens' commission, who took
:12:27. > :12:31.another two years to further examine 9/11. That is the process. I think
:12:32. > :12:35.it is particularly important now, because if we do not show to the
:12:36. > :12:40.Russians that we take this very seriously, that an attack against
:12:41. > :12:46.the fundamental essence of our democracy is totally unacceptable,
:12:47. > :12:55.then I think they are going to hear a message of immunity. We did this,
:12:56. > :12:58.lots of people have verified that we were responsible, and yet the
:12:59. > :13:02.government didn't do anything, so let's keep doing it. Not only
:13:03. > :13:07.against the United States, but next year, or later this year, 2017, we
:13:08. > :13:11.are going to have elections in France, Germany, the Netherlands,
:13:12. > :13:16.other places around the globe, and they are likely to be subjected to
:13:17. > :13:21.Russian interference in their elections. Do you think we will ever
:13:22. > :13:32.get to know quite what has gone on? Yes, I think it is a no ball fact.
:13:33. > :13:35.-- knowable fact. We just have to take it out of being a partisan
:13:36. > :13:39.political issue and make it an issue about the sanctity of American
:13:40. > :13:43.democracy. I think we can get fully to the bottom of this and be able to
:13:44. > :13:49.answer to the people of the world just what was the nature and why did
:13:50. > :13:54.the Russians become so involved in US elections. You were a chair of
:13:55. > :13:58.the senate intelligence committee. You also chaired the Congressional
:13:59. > :14:05.enquiry into the September 11 attacks. We have also seen, on the
:14:06. > :14:10.grounds of security, Donald Trump is saying that it is necessary to ban
:14:11. > :14:15.citizens from half a dozen Muslim majority countries. He has also been
:14:16. > :14:20.very critical of judges and officials who have said that they do
:14:21. > :14:25.not agree with that move. Is that also something that worries you?
:14:26. > :14:33.It does. First at a practical level. If we are going to be successful in
:14:34. > :14:37.the war against Isis it will be largely because we formed successful
:14:38. > :14:43.partnerships with Muslims as individuals and Muslim nations. And
:14:44. > :14:47.to go out of their way to throw sand in their face and be disrespectful
:14:48. > :14:56.of their religion is no way to build those partnerships. So I think this
:14:57. > :15:00.attitude of singling out Muslims and specifically saying that their
:15:01. > :15:05.access to the US will be more limited than anyone else to announce
:15:06. > :15:12.from the podium that he would like to exclude all Muslims from coming
:15:13. > :15:20.to the United States, those are exactly what we'll energise Isis and
:15:21. > :15:25.make it even more of a threat than it is today. So when Donald Trump
:15:26. > :15:29.says, I want to make America a safer place and therefore these measures
:15:30. > :15:33.are necessary and we know that terrorism is one of the top
:15:34. > :15:39.priorities for American citizens, you think this kind of measures will
:15:40. > :15:44.not make America safer? I think they are absolutely the opposite effect.
:15:45. > :15:49.-- they have. Are the right countries on the list? I would have
:15:50. > :15:53.put Saudi Arabia on the list. To me, Saudi Arabia is the country that had
:15:54. > :16:03.the closest relationship with Osama Bin Laden and in support of the 19
:16:04. > :16:10.hijackers who carried out 9/11. To leave them off the list of Muslim
:16:11. > :16:15.countries, middle eastern countries which have acted in a way
:16:16. > :16:21.detrimental it against the US, to me makes no sense at all. But of course
:16:22. > :16:25.the Saudi authorities have said consistently and persistently that
:16:26. > :16:28.they had no institutional involvement in the September the
:16:29. > :16:35.11th attacks and that was really the finding of the congressional
:16:36. > :16:40.enquiry. My conclusion, having read most maybe even more of the
:16:41. > :16:50.available material on the issue, is that Saudi Arabia was the principal
:16:51. > :16:58.facilitator of the hijackers and that 9/11 would not have occurred
:16:59. > :17:01.but for that facilitation. The Saudi government refutes that totally.
:17:02. > :17:05.Talking of immigration of a different kind, the wall that
:17:06. > :17:12.President Trump says he will build and of course Florida's Hispanic
:17:13. > :17:18.population is about 23%. This is actually still, again, a move which
:17:19. > :17:22.was quite popular with a lot of people because they are concerned
:17:23. > :17:28.about drug pushers coming in and also migrants coming in and pushing
:17:29. > :17:33.down wages because they are taking jobs from low paid and unskilled
:17:34. > :17:38.workers, so again he is striking a chord with a lot of voters in
:17:39. > :17:45.Florida. I have two concerns. One, a history of trying to build walls or
:17:46. > :17:51.bans or other physical barriers and keep out your enemies has not been a
:17:52. > :17:59.very good one. The French invested greatly in building the marginal war
:18:00. > :18:04.before World War Two started and Hitler in a couple of days ran his
:18:05. > :18:08.tanks are for all around it. I think the same thing will happen to this
:18:09. > :18:15.wall in terms of its ability to exclude people from coming to the
:18:16. > :18:22.United States. Second, I think it takes your eye off the real issue.
:18:23. > :18:28.The real issue in my opinion is that, yes, we need to have secure
:18:29. > :18:32.borders, but we also need to be contributing to the well-being of
:18:33. > :18:38.our neighbours, so that they will have less of an impetus to want to
:18:39. > :18:45.come to the United States. And more of cooperation, not less, in my
:18:46. > :18:51.opinion, is an important key to stabilising the border between the
:18:52. > :18:55.US and Mexico. It is interesting that a lot has been made about this
:18:56. > :19:00.statement by Trump having to deport 2 million, maybe as many as 3
:19:01. > :19:05.million, because President Obama deported 2.7 million in regular
:19:06. > :19:10.migrants from Carberry, far more than any other president before him.
:19:11. > :19:12.-- migrants, far more. So is what President Trump suggesting very
:19:13. > :19:19.different from what Barack Obama did? In the early days of the Trump
:19:20. > :19:27.administration, it appears as if he has been more aggressive and
:19:28. > :19:31.assertive in deporting those who came to the United States without
:19:32. > :19:38.documentation. I think what we need is what President Obama advocated
:19:39. > :19:41.and came very close to accomplishing, which is a
:19:42. > :19:50.comprehensive immigration law that deals with all of the issues that we
:19:51. > :19:54.have. Legal immigration, whether people can come to the US and get
:19:55. > :19:59.proper papers and work legally, what do we do about the now 11 million
:20:00. > :20:04.undocumented aliens who are in the United States? Do we let them live
:20:05. > :20:15.as a shadow class forever or do we figure out some way which they can
:20:16. > :20:22.be assimilated into the US? President Trump blustering in his
:20:23. > :20:27.proposal of things that are dramatic and intangible, like the wall, have
:20:28. > :20:34.taken us away from dealing with what I think is really going to be
:20:35. > :20:41.permanent and significant in resolving this issue of immigration
:20:42. > :20:48.in the US. Just finally looking at the state of the Democrats in the
:20:49. > :20:52.United States, I mean, really your fortunes are very low at the moment.
:20:53. > :20:59.The Republicans control both houses of Congress, obviously the White
:21:00. > :21:06.House... Ewen McKenzie six states -- you control. Democrats like you are
:21:07. > :21:11.really losing the argument. Your kind of politics is out of fashion.
:21:12. > :21:15.I don't think so. I think you are being a little bit harsh. Let's
:21:16. > :21:22.remember that Mrs Clinton did get almost 3 million more votes than
:21:23. > :21:31.Donald Trump. The difference particularly in the US Senate is
:21:32. > :21:37.only two... 52. So it isn't as if it's a tidal wave of change. I think
:21:38. > :21:50.the Democratic Party does need to look seriously at itself, more than
:21:51. > :21:56.trying to organise around specifically identifiable groups of
:21:57. > :22:00.voters. That we organise around policies that will be beneficial to
:22:01. > :22:04.those voters, as our traditional base. The Democratic Party has been
:22:05. > :22:11.the party that represents the interests to the working American
:22:12. > :22:17.family. It has done enormously good things from education to healthcare,
:22:18. > :22:24.the economic opportunities. We need to go back to those values and I
:22:25. > :22:29.think the Democratic Party will be around for a long time. How should
:22:30. > :22:37.they conduct themselves now on Capitol Hill? We have the US Supreme
:22:38. > :22:47.Court, the Senate hearing will have -- be happening soon. The Democrat
:22:48. > :22:51.support is needed. Do you think they should play hardball? It is tempting
:22:52. > :22:55.to say that they wouldn't even give a hearing to the person that
:22:56. > :23:02.President Obama nominated to fill this vacancy in the Supreme Court,
:23:03. > :23:11.why should we give their selection any particular support? I think that
:23:12. > :23:14.would add further to the public's discontent about the way that
:23:15. > :23:22.government is being operated. It's almost childish to say they did a
:23:23. > :23:27.bad thing, so we're going to reciprocate with an equally bad
:23:28. > :23:30.thing. I think we ought to judge this... The gentleman who has been
:23:31. > :23:36.nominated on his merits, which seemed to be superficially at least
:23:37. > :23:44.very solid, and if he stands the test of close scrutiny vote for him.
:23:45. > :23:49.Similarly, look for opportunities such as on infrastructure, which
:23:50. > :23:53.Democrats have long supported, to find common ground. Let's show the
:23:54. > :23:59.American people that the American democracy can work for them. Senator
:24:00. > :24:14.Bob Graham, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk thank you.
:24:15. > :24:18.Things are going to turn more unsettled as we head towards the end