0:00:01 > 0:00:08Now on BBC News, it's time for Hardtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12I'm Sarah Montague.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14My guest today is lucky to be alive.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17He was rushed to hospital in Moscow when his organs started
0:00:17 > 0:00:19shutting down.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21He says he knew immediately what was happening
0:00:21 > 0:00:26because the same thing happened to him two years ago.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Both times he claims he was the victim of
0:00:29 > 0:00:29deliberate poisoning.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31He's Vladimir Kara-Murza, the vice-chairman of the
0:00:31 > 0:00:35pro-democracy movement Open Russia.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38And he claims he was targeted because of his opposition to
0:00:38 > 0:00:41President Putin and the Russian government.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45He is now recovering in Washington but intends to go back to Moscow.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49So does he still fear for his life?
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Vladimir Kara-Murza, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20Hello, thank you for having me.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Can you tell us when you first realised that
0:01:23 > 0:01:29something was wrong in this recent illness that you suffered?
0:01:29 > 0:01:35Well I actually woke up at about 4.30 in the
0:01:35 > 0:01:38morning because I felt my heart racing, and it was racing at an
0:01:38 > 0:01:41increasing speed.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43And then suddenly I began sweating profusely and
0:01:43 > 0:01:47feeling really, really weak.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49And I felt my blood pressure dropping
0:01:49 > 0:01:52suddenly and all of a sudden it became difficult to breathe.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55I was gasping for air.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58I was trying to make this movement to bring the air
0:01:58 > 0:02:01in, and it felt as if no air was coming out.
0:02:01 > 0:02:02But was probably...
0:02:02 > 0:02:04No air was coming in, rather, and that
0:02:04 > 0:02:05was probably the scariest thing.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07And of course I didn't want to admit it
0:02:07 > 0:02:10but I knew straight away what it was because this
0:02:10 > 0:02:13was the second time this happened in the last two years.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15The way that starts it, it happens really
0:02:15 > 0:02:18quickly, so literally you
0:02:18 > 0:02:21have just a few minutes before you become incapacitated.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23And during those few minutes that I could still
0:02:23 > 0:02:27do something I called my wife and I told what was happening.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30And of course we both knew exactly what it
0:02:30 > 0:02:36was, it was the same thing that happened in 2015.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39And she called the doctor, the same doctor who saved my
0:02:39 > 0:02:41life last time, two years ago.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44She told him what was happening, and after that I basically
0:02:44 > 0:02:46immediately collapsed, I was unable to sit,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49unable to stand, obviously, unable to do anything, just lying down on
0:02:49 > 0:02:50the floor.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53And then again I was very fortunate because I was not alone, I
0:02:53 > 0:02:55was at the apartment of my parents-in-law in Moscow.
0:02:56 > 0:02:57And they could call an ambulance.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00And then within six to seven hours, all of my
0:03:00 > 0:03:03major organs just shut down, just gave up, one after another, and I
0:03:03 > 0:03:06lost consciousness and I don't remember anything for the next two
0:03:06 > 0:03:09weeks.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12So there were, what, two weeks when you had been put into a
0:03:12 > 0:03:14medically induced coma to keep you alive.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Yes and I was on several artificial life
0:03:16 > 0:03:20support machines because none of my organs worked.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23Everything just gave up, the heart, the lungs, kidneys,
0:03:23 > 0:03:25liver, everything was artificially supported.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28And they were cleaning the blood as well and changing the
0:03:28 > 0:03:31blood plasma, once they've done that, by the way, this is when the
0:03:31 > 0:03:34situation began improving.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35So presumably the poison, the toxin, whatever,
0:03:36 > 0:03:38it was in the blood.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40And this, by the way, is exactly the same
0:03:40 > 0:03:43picture that happened two years ago,
0:03:43 > 0:03:46with some minor differences, but basically it was the same thing.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50When I was poisoned for the first time in May 2015, except at that
0:03:50 > 0:03:54time it took a little more time, it took about two days, last time,
0:03:54 > 0:03:58for my organs to shut down, but this time it took just six to
0:03:58 > 0:03:59seven hours.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01Maybe because I still hadn't fully recovered from the first
0:04:01 > 0:04:04poisoning, the body was weaker than it should have been.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07But also this time because it was the same medical
0:04:07 > 0:04:10team, the same doctors who saved me already in 2015, and they knew
0:04:10 > 0:04:14straight away that this was the same thing they were dealing with,
0:04:14 > 0:04:15exactly the same problem.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17So they knew what to do.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20And this is why they did everything so much quicker
0:04:21 > 0:04:22than last time.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Last time I was in a coma for three weeks and I was in
0:04:26 > 0:04:29hospital for more than two months and then it took me more
0:04:29 > 0:04:32than a year to recover, I had to learn to walk again,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35and use cutlery again, to try to get my strength back.
0:04:36 > 0:04:37This time everything was much quicker but
0:04:37 > 0:04:39they also saved me quicker.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41But of course the recovery is still going
0:04:41 > 0:04:45to take a long while, as 'm only just beginning this process now.
0:04:45 > 0:04:46Now you say you were deliberately poisoned.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48But what is the evidence for that?
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Because normally you might expect when someone has been poisoned that
0:04:52 > 0:04:54doctors, that they themselves would know immediately when it happened
0:04:54 > 0:04:55and what was used.
0:04:55 > 0:05:01But you don't.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06Well, first of all the official diagnosis which is stated in my
0:05:06 > 0:05:09documents from the Moscow hospital says toxic action by an
0:05:09 > 0:05:10unidentified substance.
0:05:10 > 0:05:11Which is poisoning.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14And frankly, you know, my doctors in Moscow, their task was
0:05:14 > 0:05:18not to find the reason, their task was to save my life, and they did it
0:05:18 > 0:05:23twice in two years.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25And I'm eternally grateful to them for that.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28As far as the evidence goes, there is no possible natural reason
0:05:28 > 0:05:32for a healthy 33-year-old in the first
0:05:32 > 0:05:35instance, now 35-year-old man, to suddenly collapse and have all his
0:05:35 > 0:05:38organs shut down within several hours for apparent reason.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40With no prior history of illnesses, no
0:05:40 > 0:05:41possible natural causes existing before.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45And of course...
0:05:45 > 0:05:47But there are cases.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51You will know that after that first poisoning, the chief
0:05:51 > 0:05:53doctor at the Moscow hospital treating you,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56which you praise,
0:05:56 > 0:05:58said the tests had revealed traces of a antidepressant.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01And he suggested, which you had been using, and he
0:06:01 > 0:06:04suggested that it was that that could have caused the problems.
0:06:04 > 0:06:09He couldn't confirm it but it was an idea.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Right, well first of all, that wasn't very plausible to begin with
0:06:12 > 0:06:14even last time, but this time they didn't find
0:06:14 > 0:06:16any traces of anything.
0:06:16 > 0:06:17No antidepressants, nothing.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19So they didn't even discuss this version
0:06:19 > 0:06:24this time because it has absolutely no grounds.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27What we do know from last time is, a sample of my
0:06:27 > 0:06:31blood and hair and fingernails was submitted to a French toxicology lab
0:06:31 > 0:06:35in Strasbourg, in France.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37And they didn't find the actual toxins but
0:06:37 > 0:06:40they did find traces of heavy metals in my body,
0:06:40 > 0:06:42dozens of times over the normal acceptable limit which
0:06:42 > 0:06:45obviously didn't show the cause of the poisoning but showed
0:06:45 > 0:06:48the effects and showed that there was some kind of external
0:06:48 > 0:06:48interference.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51That sample wasn't very objective from last time because it
0:06:51 > 0:06:54was taken, I think, three or four days after I was
0:06:54 > 0:06:56brought into hospital
0:06:57 > 0:06:59and they'd already begun haemodialysis, the cleaning of the
0:06:59 > 0:06:59blood.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02This time my wife and my lawyer managed to obtain samples
0:07:02 > 0:07:05from the first day, so they are more objective
0:07:05 > 0:07:06than the first time and
0:07:06 > 0:07:09this time they sent them to three toxicology labs in three different
0:07:09 > 0:07:14countries, France, Israel, and the United States.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16They are still working on them.
0:07:16 > 0:07:17We still have no results.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20And of course I'm hoping that they will find something.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I mean it would be nice to see with what they are trying to kill me
0:07:24 > 0:07:25every two years.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27But this was some kind of very sophisticated toxin.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30You know, one that shuts down all your organs
0:07:30 > 0:07:31within several hours and of
0:07:31 > 0:07:34course the way it was introduced was presumably sophisticated, because I
0:07:34 > 0:07:36didn't notice, I didn't know.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38That is one of the many strange things
0:07:38 > 0:07:41about this, is that you have no awareness of when it could have
0:07:41 > 0:07:41happened.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45And yet you are fairly confident in who you are pointing
0:07:45 > 0:07:48the finger at, which is, you've said, is likely to be the
0:07:48 > 0:07:56special services, effectively the domestic Secret
0:07:56 > 0:07:57services in Russia.
0:07:57 > 0:07:58Absolutely, well, judging by the
0:07:58 > 0:08:02toxin itself, which is, as I said, it seems to be very sophisticated,
0:08:02 > 0:08:06it's not something you can just go and buy in a pharmacy, and also
0:08:06 > 0:08:09judging by the way it was introduced, I think, frankly, that's
0:08:09 > 0:08:10what usually happens.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12The person is not usually aware of the moment he
0:08:12 > 0:08:15or she is being poisoned, otherwise it wouldn't work.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17So the way they introduced it was, presumably,
0:08:17 > 0:08:18pretty sophisticated.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22I'm confident that this was done by people who
0:08:22 > 0:08:25either are now or have been connected with the Russian domestic
0:08:25 > 0:08:26security services.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28Especially if you put two and two together, given what
0:08:28 > 0:08:31I do, given my active involvement in the democratic
0:08:31 > 0:08:32opposition in Russia.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33Particularly given my involvement, together
0:08:33 > 0:08:35with the late Boris Nemtsov, the
0:08:35 > 0:08:37leader of the Russian opposition, and several
0:08:37 > 0:08:38other colleagues, in the
0:08:38 > 0:08:41campaign a few years ago, in support of the Magnitsky Act, act
0:08:41 > 0:08:43being passed in the United States.
0:08:43 > 0:08:44OK.
0:08:44 > 0:08:45We'll...
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I think that is probably the most likely...
0:08:47 > 0:08:50You talk about how you put two and two together.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52The difficulty here is that there doesn't seem to
0:08:52 > 0:08:53be any substantial evidence.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56Even your own father was quoted, both in
0:08:56 > 0:08:59the New York Times and in the Russian paper
0:08:59 > 0:09:01as saying he doesn't believe you will poisoned.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03He says the doctors don't think so, I don't
0:09:03 > 0:09:04think so either.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06If someone really intended to kill him they wouldn't
0:09:06 > 0:09:09have allowed him to be driven to intensive care.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13Well, in terms of my father, we have to be careful with
0:09:13 > 0:09:16quoting here.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20If somebody has tried to kill your child twice in two
0:09:20 > 0:09:24years, I think, you know, maybe, you're not going to be in a very
0:09:24 > 0:09:27stable and adequate state when you are doing these comments.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30He said it on day one when he didn't have any more
0:09:30 > 0:09:31specific information.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34If you look at what he said later on, it would be very
0:09:34 > 0:09:36different, and of course my
0:09:36 > 0:09:39wife and my lawyer was speaking on my behalf during this latest
0:09:39 > 0:09:42poisoning and they said it very clearly from the outset.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44As I mentioned already, after the first
0:09:44 > 0:09:47time, the French toxicology lab found traces of heavy metals dozens
0:09:47 > 0:09:48of times over the limit.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50No way would that naturally occur in the
0:09:50 > 0:09:51human body.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54Yes, but you sent your blood to two other labs as well,
0:09:54 > 0:09:55who didn't find that.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58No, no, no, this time it was sent to three labs,
0:09:58 > 0:09:59Israel, the United States and France.
0:09:59 > 0:10:04Last time it was only sent to one and it was sent, the sample
0:10:04 > 0:10:07was, as I said, not very objective, because it took...
0:10:07 > 0:10:08But your father makes an interesting point.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11He may have changed his position but he
0:10:11 > 0:10:14made an interesting point that you were allowed to be taken to the
0:10:14 > 0:10:16hospital, you were then, once you were considerably better,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19allowed to leave the country, and he also made
0:10:19 > 0:10:20another point on that.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22Admittedly within the first couple of days.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24"My son's health is weak and so is his
0:10:24 > 0:10:25immune system.
0:10:25 > 0:10:31Any common cold could be dangerous for him."
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Well, first of all again I'm not sure why we are
0:10:34 > 0:10:36discussing this because the official diagnosis from my Russian hospital
0:10:36 > 0:10:39on the official papers states the diagnosis as toxic action by
0:10:39 > 0:10:41unidentified substance, which is poisoning.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44And as I've said, we have sent, or rather, my wife and my
0:10:44 > 0:10:47lawyer, because I was in a coma,, I couldn't do anything.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50They have sent the samples of blood, hair and
0:10:50 > 0:10:53fingernails to three labs in three different countries, and we are
0:10:53 > 0:10:54still awaiting the results.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57But as I mentioned, I don't think there is a
0:10:57 > 0:11:02guarantee that they will find anything.
0:11:02 > 0:11:08I'm hoping they will, as said it would be nice to know
0:11:08 > 0:11:10who is trying to kill me every two years.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13But the one thing we do know about this organisation,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16or these organisations if we are talking about the Russian domestic
0:11:16 > 0:11:18security services, is that they do know their poisons.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19They do know their toxins.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21They've had this laboratory for decades now.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23They've been developing this and these
0:11:23 > 0:11:25poisons, these toxins, are not only very effective,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27but many of them are also untraceable.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30I mean, you've had cases in your own country, in the
0:11:30 > 0:11:31United Kingdom...
0:11:31 > 0:11:34How do you think they were able to get the poison
0:11:34 > 0:11:34into you?
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Well, I think that's the easiest thing of all.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Every day I have meetings with various people.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41Many of them are in public places, cafes and restaurants.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44It doesn't take, frankly, that much effort, to
0:11:44 > 0:11:46slip something into tea or juice.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49This is obviously, I don't have any specific information of where or
0:11:49 > 0:11:52when this was done by whom.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56The only thing I'm pretty confident about is the why.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00But of course as you know they can do these things in
0:12:00 > 0:12:03London, I'm sure they can also do these things in Moscow.
0:12:03 > 0:12:03OK.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Before we come on to the why, you say it
0:12:06 > 0:12:08was, you are convinced it was the special services.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10But who would have ordered it?
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Is this the sort of thing you think President Putin
0:12:13 > 0:12:14would have got involved in?
0:12:14 > 0:12:16I don't know and I wouldn't like to speculate.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19I only like to say things I am sure about.
0:12:20 > 0:12:25And I am sure that these were people in some way
0:12:25 > 0:12:28connected to the Russian domestic security services judging by the way
0:12:28 > 0:12:32it was done.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36And judging by the reason but I think it was done for.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38But why would they be interested in you?
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Because you make the point about the Magnitsky Act which was an
0:12:42 > 0:12:44American law passed to target individuals named after Sergei
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Magnitsky, the lawyer who died in a Russian prison.
0:12:47 > 0:12:52But for them to take the action of trying to kill
0:12:52 > 0:12:55somebody, you seem, forgive me, but relatively small fry.
0:12:55 > 0:13:01Why should they be bothered by you?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04Well, first of all, if you look at the track
0:13:04 > 0:13:08record of the last several years, there seems to be an extremely high
0:13:08 > 0:13:11mortality rate for some reason among people who have either been critics
0:13:11 > 0:13:13all political opponents of Mr Putin's regime
0:13:13 > 0:13:14or people engaged in
0:13:14 > 0:13:18independent journalism.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21And as you well know, these people have died in
0:13:21 > 0:13:24different ways, some of them strange and mysterious ways, not only inside
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Russia but also outside, primarily in your own
0:13:27 > 0:13:31country where you are now.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34So, you know, this doesn't really fit into a normal statistical
0:13:34 > 0:13:35model, this high mortality rate.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37And in terms of my own case, again, I
0:13:37 > 0:13:39don't have any specific information, I didn't
0:13:39 > 0:13:40receive any threats, there
0:13:41 > 0:13:41were no warnings.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44This just happened out of the blue both times, both in
0:13:44 > 0:13:452015 and now.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49But if I were to name the most likely reason, I would say
0:13:49 > 0:13:51it was definitely the Magnitsky Act.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55I was very actively involved, together with the late Boris
0:13:55 > 0:13:58Nemtsov, the leader of the Russian opposition, who was killed two
0:13:58 > 0:14:00years ago near the Kremlin.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03We were involved with him in the campaign in
0:14:03 > 0:14:07support of the Magnitsky Act when it was being discussed and while it was
0:14:07 > 0:14:12being passed in the United States, and then later in the same campaign
0:14:12 > 0:14:15in support of similar measures in the European Union countries.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17And there has now been one EU country,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19Estonia, which already passed a similar law.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22And in your own country, in the United Kingdom, it's
0:14:22 > 0:14:25in the process of being adopted, the financial crimes will,
0:14:25 > 0:14:27where this provision was passed by the House of
0:14:27 > 0:14:28Commons, I think.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31I believe it now went to the Lords and hopefully will
0:14:31 > 0:14:32be adopted soon.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34In order to understand why this was such a big
0:14:34 > 0:14:38deal, it's important to understand the nature of the regime that we
0:14:38 > 0:14:40have in power in our country today.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43In so many ways, Vladimir Putin's regime is similar to what we had
0:14:43 > 0:14:44back in the Soviet times.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47We have media censorship, we have the lack
0:14:47 > 0:14:49of free and fair elections in our country.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51We have political prisoners, dozens of people sitting
0:14:51 > 0:14:54in jail only for their political beliefs and political activities.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56And I can go on.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59But for all these similarities there is one very
0:14:59 > 0:15:00important difference.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01And that is, while they were
0:15:01 > 0:15:05persecuting dissidents and engaging in anti-Western propaganda, members
0:15:05 > 0:15:09of the Soviet Politburo didn't hold their money in Western banks.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12They didn't send their children to study
0:15:12 > 0:15:16in western schools, they didn't buy yachts
0:15:16 > 0:15:18and luxury real estate and
0:15:18 > 0:15:25luxury cars in Western countries.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28Leaders and operatives of the current regime do all that.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31They want to rule inside Russia like it's a third World
0:15:31 > 0:15:34dictatorship, but they want to use all the privileges and freedoms
0:15:34 > 0:15:36and opportunities of the Western world when it comes to themselves
0:15:37 > 0:15:39and their families and also for storing their ill-gotten gains.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42And we think that this hypocrisy and these double standards
0:15:42 > 0:15:43have to stop.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46And this is why we are involved in this campaign to get
0:15:46 > 0:15:48the Magnitsky Act Magnitsky Act past.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51This was not sanctions against Russia, this was not even
0:15:51 > 0:15:52sanctions against the Russian government.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54This was sanctions against specific individuals involved in corruption
0:15:54 > 0:15:55and human rights abuse.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59And it was long overdue to introduce some kind of personal accountability
0:15:59 > 0:16:02for these people but of course, as you realise, they will not be
0:16:02 > 0:16:03very happy about it.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06The problem with your argument is that you are talking
0:16:06 > 0:16:09about a president who is still incredibly popular in Russia,
0:16:09 > 0:16:13and you are talking about sanctions, targeted sanctions, June 2015
0:16:13 > 0:16:16which a poll back in June 2015 which was when before some
0:16:17 > 0:16:19of the broader sanctions were in place, said that,
0:16:19 > 0:16:22almost half of those polled said they felt like they were shouldering
0:16:22 > 0:16:28the burden of sanctions.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30So they felt, 46% of the general Russian population felt
0:16:30 > 0:16:33the sanctions were hurting them.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35You're mixing up the difference sanctions.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38The sanctions you are referring to are general economic
0:16:38 > 0:16:39and sectoral sanctions introduced...
0:16:39 > 0:16:42No, this was a poll taken back in 2015, asking
0:16:42 > 0:16:46about the targeted sanctions.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49Well, in 2014 there were general sanctions introduced,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52economic and sectoral sanctions against the wider Russian economy.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56When the Magnitsky Act was introduced that was back
0:16:56 > 0:16:58in December 20 12.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01There was indeed a pole taken by the Levada Centre which showed
0:17:01 > 0:17:03that a strong plurality of Russian citizens,
0:17:03 > 0:17:0640 something percent, were in favour of this idea that
0:17:06 > 0:17:09people who engage in human rights abuse and corruption should not be
0:17:09 > 0:17:12allowed to receive visas in Western countries or keep their money
0:17:12 > 0:17:15in Western banks or buy real estate in Western countries.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18Because people don't see if those crooks,
0:17:18 > 0:17:21those billionaires who have got rich by plundering the resources
0:17:21 > 0:17:23of Russian taxpayers, they don't see any limitations
0:17:23 > 0:17:26on them as sanctions against the Russian people
0:17:26 > 0:17:29because obviously they are not.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31And Boris Nemtsov called the Magnitsky law the most
0:17:31 > 0:17:34pro-Russian law ever passed in any foreign parliament,
0:17:34 > 0:17:35that's a direct quotation from him.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38Because it is a law that targets those who abuse the rights
0:17:38 > 0:17:41of Russian citizens and plunder the money of Russian taxpayers.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44But we still have a problem with your argument which is
0:17:44 > 0:17:46that the president is remarkably popular.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49And we'll win a game in the next elections.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52I know you're going to say that the elections are not fair
0:17:52 > 0:17:55but even if you accept that argument, he is
0:17:55 > 0:18:00still remarkably popular.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04You know, I really take issue when people in the West say that.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09Garry Kasparov, who is a chess grandmaster and world just champion
0:18:09 > 0:18:12was for many years one of the leaders of the Russian
0:18:12 > 0:18:12opposition.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16I think he said it best when he said, if you come
0:18:16 > 0:18:18into the restaurant and there's only one dish being served,
0:18:18 > 0:18:22you can say that this is the most popular dish in the restaurant
0:18:22 > 0:18:24and you would technically be right.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27But it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't have any meaning.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29For years now Mr Putin has been destroying any
0:18:29 > 0:18:30alternative, any opposition.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Those of us who oppose them are either in exile,
0:18:33 > 0:18:36in prison, or no longer with us, like Boris Nemtsov.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39For years now Mr Putin has been in total control and his government
0:18:39 > 0:18:42have been in total control of all the national media
0:18:42 > 0:18:43in our country.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47In fact his first major target in his very early years of his will,
0:18:47 > 0:18:49in the early 2000s, were the independent television
0:18:49 > 0:18:51channels in Russia, which, one after another, he either
0:18:51 > 0:18:54shut down or took over for the state.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56The Russian parliament has been turned into a rubber stamp.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58Not a place for discussion.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00As its own speaker infamously said.
0:19:00 > 0:19:01And as you mentioned yourself...
0:19:01 > 0:19:04Mr Kara-Murza, you are sitting in front of a picture of the White
0:19:04 > 0:19:06House.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09The new occupant of that building is a man who wants to be friends
0:19:09 > 0:19:16with the person you are talking about.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18Yes, he certainly said this many times.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22And to this we would say, by week, I mean myself and my colleagues
0:19:22 > 0:19:25in the Russian opposition, we would say what we said
0:19:25 > 0:19:27to president Obama before him and what we said
0:19:27 > 0:19:30to President Bush before him.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34That you could do some short-term tactical,
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I would say cynical deals but I think, in the end,
0:19:38 > 0:19:42because of such a divergence of values between a system based
0:19:42 > 0:19:47on democracy and the rule of law, which the United States is,
0:19:47 > 0:19:51as well as European Union countries, and the corrupt crooked dictatorship
0:19:51 > 0:19:54that is Mr Putin 's regime, there cannot be any
0:19:54 > 0:19:57long-term genuine co-operation.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00And in the end, as we know, but President Bush and President
0:20:00 > 0:20:03Obama also began their terms by declaring that they wanted to be
0:20:03 > 0:20:05friends with Mr Putin and his regime.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08And we know what it led to in the end.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11So you are not unnerved by what you share from President Trump
0:20:11 > 0:20:14and his new approach to Russia?
0:20:14 > 0:20:17First of all, the most important thing to remember is,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20and we always do remember this, is, it is our task, our job,
0:20:20 > 0:20:22to bring political change in Russia.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25To bring democracy and the rule of law back to Russia.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27It is not for any outside players.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31It is not for any foreign powers, it is not for the US,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33not the European Union, not for anybody else.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Only for us and we will do it.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39The only thing we would ask of the leaders of the democratic
0:20:39 > 0:20:42world is, not to help Mr Putin.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45First of all by treating him as a worthy and respectable partner
0:20:45 > 0:20:47on the international stage, and secondly, perhaps even more
0:20:47 > 0:20:53importantly, is what we just talked about.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56By not allowing his cronies and operatives of his regime to use
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Western countries as havens for the wealth they have looted
0:20:59 > 0:21:02from the Russian people.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04This is all we ask.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07And this is why a gain the Magnitsky initiatives were so important.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10And cities like Washington and London are guilty of that?
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Guilty is a strong and legally charged word but certainly for many
0:21:13 > 0:21:15years, I don't think it's a secret for anybody,
0:21:15 > 0:21:18many people connected with the Putin regime,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20the Kremlin connected oligarchs, the officials, the cronies,
0:21:21 > 0:21:26they have long used countries of Europe and north America
0:21:26 > 0:21:29as havens to buy houses to keep their money,
0:21:29 > 0:21:33and we know that the United Kingdom has been frankly among the top
0:21:33 > 0:21:34on that list.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37And this is why it's so important that the British Parliament is now
0:21:37 > 0:21:41in the process of adopting its own legislation that would target those
0:21:41 > 0:21:42crooks, target those human rights abuses,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46and as the British Security Minister said when this law was being voted
0:21:46 > 0:21:50on, in the House of Commons in February, this should be stopped.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53And the UK should not become a haven for these people.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57And I think this is very honourable and the right thing to do and I'm
0:21:57 > 0:21:58happy this is happening.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01You say the opposition will do it, will bring about change.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05And you have said it will come not as a result of elections,
0:22:05 > 0:22:07it will come unexpectedly and very sudden, when no one
0:22:07 > 0:22:08will least expect it.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Do you think it will come soon?
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Well, Russian history does show that when political change comes
0:22:13 > 0:22:16to our country it always begins suddenly and unexpectedly.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19This is what happened at the beginning of the 20th
0:22:19 > 0:22:21century, this is what happened in the early 1990s,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23which was within in our lifetime.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26I remember August 1991 when the regime that had existed
0:22:26 > 0:22:30for 74 years, the Soviet Communist regime, collapsed in three days.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33When the people came out onto the streets of Moscow
0:22:33 > 0:22:36in their hundreds and thousands and stood in front of the tanks
0:22:36 > 0:22:37and the coup collapsed.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40But will it happen soon?
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Well, the one thing we certainly cannot say is exactly
0:22:43 > 0:22:44when and exactly how.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47It would be reckless to try to name any specific dates.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49And what about your role.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Because there you are recovering in Washington but you plan to go
0:22:52 > 0:22:53back, don't you?
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Do you not expect another attempt on your life?
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Well, first of all I will definitely go back, I will definitely
0:22:58 > 0:22:59resume my work.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03I think those of us who believe in a different future for Russia,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06a different vision for Russia, will want to see Russia become
0:23:06 > 0:23:10a normal modern democratic European country.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13We have responsibility. We cannot just run away and give up.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16We have to continue our work, and we will do it.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19And I will do it. And I will absolutely go back.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22I don't know when that will happen, because doctors have advised me
0:23:22 > 0:23:25to hold off going back for a while, for at least
0:23:25 > 0:23:26until full physical recovery.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Because they have said, if there is a third time now,
0:23:29 > 0:23:31this will be your last one.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33This is what they told me directly.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36But I will absolutely go back and we will continue doing
0:23:36 > 0:23:37what we are doing.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Because there are many people in Russia who reject this regime
0:23:40 > 0:23:41and what it stands for.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43You don't hear their voices.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45A minute ago you mentioned the so-called popularity of Putin.
0:23:45 > 0:23:46It's fake.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Popularity created by controlled media, the lack of free and fair
0:23:49 > 0:23:50elections, and total political control, basically.
0:23:51 > 0:23:52Partly fear, party propaganda.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54The fact is, I mean, I travel widely around Russia,
0:23:54 > 0:23:56beyond Moscow, beyond Saint Petersburg, in various
0:23:56 > 0:23:57regions, East to West.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00And everywhere I go, there are people who are fed up
0:24:00 > 0:24:02with this regime, with its corruption,
0:24:02 > 0:24:05with its political control, who want to see a different
0:24:05 > 0:24:07future for Russia.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09And frankly I think these people represent the best hope
0:24:09 > 0:24:13for the future of our country and it is for their sake
0:24:13 > 0:24:14that we have to continue working.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Vladimir Kara-Murza, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:17 > 0:24:18Thank you.