Walter Mzembi, Minister for Tourism, Zimbabwe

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0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Monatague.

0:00:10 > 0:00:13Imagine having the job of persuading people to holiday in Zimbabwe.

0:00:13 > 0:00:16It is a beautiful country but it's also a basket case.

0:00:16 > 0:00:19Doctors, nurses and teachers have all been on strike

0:00:19 > 0:00:29because they haven't been paid.

0:00:29 > 0:00:32Half the rural population face starvation and the economy

0:00:32 > 0:00:34is in the grip of a major currency crisis.

0:00:34 > 0:00:36My guest today is Zimbabwe's tourism minister, Walter Mzembi.

0:00:37 > 0:00:38He's worked alongside President Mugabe for

0:00:38 > 0:00:39the last decade.

0:00:39 > 0:00:42A man, who aged 93, plans to stand in elections next year.

0:00:42 > 0:00:47Isn't it time for the oldest head of state in the world to go?

0:01:20 > 0:01:21Walter Mzembi, welcome to HARDtalk.

0:01:21 > 0:01:22Sarah, thank you.

0:01:22 > 0:01:26President Mugabe is the oldest head of state in the world, he's 93.

0:01:26 > 0:01:28Should he really be the ZANU-PF for candidate

0:01:28 > 0:01:30for the elections next year?

0:01:30 > 0:01:32Absolutely, as long as the people ask him to carry on,

0:01:33 > 0:01:36as is the case now, and they've already indicated in the last

0:01:36 > 0:01:39national conference that they want him to stay on and it's not really

0:01:39 > 0:01:50about the statistics, but what he's offering.

0:01:50 > 0:01:52Do you want him to stay on?

0:01:52 > 0:01:53I want him to stay on.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56Because he's still capable of doing the job.

0:01:56 > 0:01:58Because his faculties are still completely in place.

0:01:58 > 0:02:01I just parted ways from him just recently from Ghana.

0:02:01 > 0:02:03I was able to watch him in action.

0:02:03 > 0:02:06You wouldn't imagine he is 92, 93, it is just a statistics really

0:02:06 > 0:02:08because he is completely sound.

0:02:08 > 0:02:10He is of sound mental state and completely in charge

0:02:10 > 0:02:16of his faculties.

0:02:16 > 0:02:19Because he's only just recently back from another trip to Singapore.

0:02:19 > 0:02:21Absolutely and immediately he proceeded to Ghana.

0:02:21 > 0:02:25Just paying testimony to how physically fit he is.

0:02:25 > 0:02:28What about the stories of him falling asleep in meetings,

0:02:28 > 0:02:37does he do that?

0:02:37 > 0:02:39I've not seen him sleep in meetings.

0:02:39 > 0:02:42He presides over Cabinet every Tuesday and he is completely awake

0:02:42 > 0:02:43to the task.

0:02:43 > 0:02:45You'll know that Botswana's President, a Ian Khama,

0:02:45 > 0:02:49has said he should have gone years ago, "It's obvious at his age

0:02:49 > 0:02:52and the state Zimbabwe is in, that he's not able to provide

0:02:52 > 0:02:55the leadership that could get it out of its predicament."

0:02:55 > 0:02:58If he is not able to provide the leadership that is expected,

0:02:58 > 0:02:59we are all collectively responsible.

0:02:59 > 0:03:02We are his ministers, we work under him.

0:03:02 > 0:03:03We work under him.

0:03:03 > 0:03:06And I'm quite confident that I have been discharging my functions

0:03:06 > 0:03:09as ably as I could,using his mandate as president.

0:03:09 > 0:03:12OK, so, because, you'll know that his wife, Grace Mugabe has said

0:03:12 > 0:03:15"One day when God decides that Mugabe dies, we'll have his corpse

0:03:15 > 0:03:17aware as candidate on the ballot paper."

0:03:17 > 0:03:30She was making the point that he would still win.

0:03:30 > 0:03:31That's a metaphor.

0:03:31 > 0:03:32Absolutely a metaphor.

0:03:32 > 0:03:34That he is so popular his corpse would win.

0:03:34 > 0:03:39To the extent that dead people - as is currently the case right now -

0:03:39 > 0:03:41the ideology is how we function today, with philosophers

0:03:41 > 0:03:43like Jesus Christ, Socrates, Hamad and many of them,

0:03:43 > 0:03:47they have philosophies that continue to govern us even when they lie

0:03:47 > 0:03:49in state, when they lie in their graves.

0:03:49 > 0:04:03It is about the philosophy of the leader.

0:04:03 > 0:04:06So you are proud of the job your government has done?

0:04:06 > 0:04:08I'm proud of what I'm doing, absolutely.

0:04:08 > 0:04:11Let me take a look at the situation in Zimbabwe.

0:04:11 > 0:04:13The economy halved, the size of the economy halved

0:04:13 > 0:04:15after the year 2000.

0:04:16 > 0:04:18It's going to contract by another 2.5% next year.

0:04:18 > 0:04:21Land reforms - however justified they may or may not have been,

0:04:21 > 0:04:24they led to a massive decline in crop yields the way

0:04:24 > 0:04:25they were carried out.

0:04:25 > 0:04:33Three-quarters of the rural population live on less

0:04:33 > 0:04:34than $1.25 a day.

0:04:34 > 0:04:52One-fifth are in extreme poverty.

0:04:52 > 0:04:54The government can scarcely pay its civil servants,

0:04:54 > 0:04:57its doctors, its nurses, its soldiers, it's having to pay

0:04:57 > 0:04:59the bonuses in different months because it can't afford to.

0:05:00 > 0:05:02You've got debts of nearly $1 trillion still owing.

0:05:02 > 0:05:0480% of the workforce is outside the formal economy,

0:05:04 > 0:05:07so you can't even take taxes from them.

0:05:07 > 0:05:10The list goes on and on, more than half the children under

0:05:10 > 0:05:13five and over six months are anaemic and you say you are proud...

0:05:13 > 0:05:16Those are the problems you characterise, let me say

0:05:16 > 0:05:17to you that there

0:05:17 > 0:05:20is a collective understanding in Zimbabwe that we had to get land

0:05:20 > 0:05:21back at whatever cost.

0:05:21 > 0:05:24And this is the cost that you are counting.

0:05:24 > 0:05:26That notwithstanding, the response by the world

0:05:26 > 0:05:28through the departure of Zimbabwe and the United Kingdom

0:05:28 > 0:05:30was the imposition of sanctions through the European Union.

0:05:31 > 0:05:33The sanctions were targeted at a few individuals.

0:05:33 > 0:05:34The sanctions are not widely.

0:05:34 > 0:05:37Through the United States of America, there is an acknowledged...

0:05:37 > 0:05:38A few individuals.

0:05:38 > 0:05:40An acknowledged regime for sanctions called the Zimbabwe economic

0:05:40 > 0:05:41recovery and democratic act.

0:05:41 > 0:05:43It is in place, anyone can Google it.

0:05:43 > 0:05:46It speaks to what is prevented from happening in Zimbabwe

0:05:46 > 0:05:54by way of support.

0:05:54 > 0:05:55It targets those individuals...

0:05:56 > 0:05:57Official developmental assistance capital information.

0:05:57 > 0:06:00How do you answer, how do you respond to that challenge?

0:06:00 > 0:06:03The sanctions in place targets individuals and in the case

0:06:03 > 0:06:06of America, those around them?

0:06:07 > 0:06:10But you cannot wipe the history, the decade leading up to 2014,

0:06:10 > 0:06:13November, the European Union invoked Article 96, which was inflicting

0:06:13 > 0:06:14a lot of damage.

0:06:14 > 0:06:16The sum total, in article 96, on the Zimbabwe economy

0:06:16 > 0:06:19was the equivalent almost to the declaration of conventional

0:06:19 > 0:06:19warfare.

0:06:19 > 0:06:27The kind of destruction that you see...

0:06:27 > 0:06:28It's everybody's fault.

0:06:28 > 0:06:30It is exactly what happened to the Zimbabwean economy

0:06:30 > 0:06:31after that period.

0:06:31 > 0:06:37It is everybody's else's fault, the sanctions.

0:06:37 > 0:06:38What about land reform.

0:06:38 > 0:06:41You can say that this is something that everybody knew

0:06:41 > 0:06:44there was a price but look at the price of land reforms.

0:06:44 > 0:06:46Did you honestly expect it to be so great?

0:06:46 > 0:06:55No, what has not been spoken to.

0:06:55 > 0:06:58Therefore, if you didn't expect it to be so great,

0:06:58 > 0:06:59was it handled badly?

0:06:59 > 0:07:01What has not been spoken to is exactly what happened

0:07:01 > 0:07:04in Europe after World War two, the Marhsall Plan.

0:07:04 > 0:07:06When a country is under the kind of character,

0:07:06 > 0:07:09in terms of its economy, that the European collective end

0:07:09 > 0:07:12after World War Two, the equivalent Zimbabwe end after it

0:07:12 > 0:07:15acquired its land back, in the decade leading up to 2000,

0:07:15 > 0:07:18you get the same conditions that attract the kind of response

0:07:18 > 0:07:19which would require a recovery programme.

0:07:21 > 0:07:22What are you suggesting?

0:07:22 > 0:07:23I'm suggesting that...

0:07:23 > 0:07:25That in the year 2000, the Zimbabwean government brought

0:07:25 > 0:07:27the effects of a global war on itself?

0:07:27 > 0:07:28Absolutely and the response...

0:07:28 > 0:07:34And that was a right thing to do?

0:07:35 > 0:07:37Their response is a recovery programme in the same order that

0:07:37 > 0:07:40you had the Marshall Plan for Europe post-World War Two.

0:07:40 > 0:07:44And that is not what we have not been able to take to the world

0:07:44 > 0:07:48to say - $50 billion worth of income and lives was lost on the Zimbabwean

0:07:48 > 0:07:51economy in the period leading up to November 2014.

0:07:51 > 0:07:54What happened to crop yields as a result of land reform?

0:07:54 > 0:07:56There are certain things that you can predict,

0:07:56 > 0:08:00if you do not farm the land well enough, your crops are going to go

0:08:00 > 0:08:10down and now people are starving.

0:08:11 > 0:08:13Those were the unintended consequences, but we are back,

0:08:13 > 0:08:14if you see tobacco now.

0:08:14 > 0:08:25Unintended consequences, so accept that it was handled badly?

0:08:25 > 0:08:28If you see our cash crop, tobacco, it's back to better than before

0:08:28 > 0:08:30the land reform programme.

0:08:30 > 0:08:32The other crops, cereals and other grain crops,

0:08:32 > 0:08:34they've not done as well, because of incessant droughts

0:08:34 > 0:08:43but this year the harvest, God had helped, and this year

0:08:43 > 0:08:49there's lots of grain in Zimbabwe.

0:08:49 > 0:08:52Is it very hard for to you criticise either the government

0:08:52 > 0:08:55or the president to say - look, there were things we did

0:08:55 > 0:08:57wrong, is it hard to make criticisms?

0:08:57 > 0:09:00Like every recovery programme, it is fraught with imperfections.

0:09:00 > 0:09:03And I do accept that the process is not smooth but the end justifies

0:09:03 > 0:09:06the means and people have their land in their hands,

0:09:06 > 0:09:07in their possession.

0:09:07 > 0:09:10The next stage is really unleashing productivity out of that land

0:09:10 > 0:09:12and there is no country like Zimbabwe.

0:09:12 > 0:09:13If you think...

0:09:13 > 0:09:16There's no country and most other countries will be glad they are not

0:09:16 > 0:09:17in the situation.

0:09:17 > 0:09:19If your problems could be wished away.

0:09:19 > 0:09:21The land problem could never be wished away.

0:09:21 > 0:09:24Wars have been fought in Europe, wars have been fought

0:09:24 > 0:09:26in the United States of America, wars have been fought

0:09:26 > 0:09:28on the back of land.

0:09:28 > 0:09:30It is a problem already solved in our domain.

0:09:30 > 0:09:32But you didn't answer my question.

0:09:32 > 0:09:34We are going to the next of our recovery.

0:09:34 > 0:09:36Are you able to criticise the president?

0:09:36 > 0:09:39I do criticise him inside the confines of the theatre

0:09:39 > 0:09:41that is designated for critiquing, inside Cabinet.

0:09:41 > 0:09:44So you won't criticise publicly but privately you feel confident

0:09:44 > 0:09:45saying - it is a mistable.

0:09:45 > 0:09:46I do criticise him.

0:09:46 > 0:09:49If there are superior ideas to move our country forward.

0:09:49 > 0:09:50Let's look at one.

0:09:50 > 0:09:53The country has had a terrible problem with inflation.

0:09:53 > 0:09:57Sure.

0:09:57 > 0:10:01Back in October you were publicly saying what the country should do

0:10:01 > 0:10:02is adopt the South African rand.

0:10:02 > 0:10:04I still insist that's the way to go.

0:10:04 > 0:10:06It is part of a discussion.

0:10:06 > 0:10:09What the Government actually did, we should explain, was to launch

0:10:09 > 0:10:13a bond note - a bond note which is being called the bollar,

0:10:13 > 0:10:18the idea waas the equivalent to the US dollar, and it's

0:10:18 > 0:10:19created considerable problems.

0:10:19 > 0:10:27Was it a mistake to launch that bond note?

0:10:27 > 0:10:30It has alieviated to a limited extent the cash crisis

0:10:30 > 0:10:31in our country.

0:10:31 > 0:10:34I have always aired my position on the matter, what mischief

0:10:34 > 0:10:37are we treating if we equate the bond note value to the US

0:10:37 > 0:10:40Dollar, because the US Dollar itself is the mischief that's currently

0:10:40 > 0:10:53obtaining in our economy, and our inability to appreciate

0:10:53 > 0:10:56its value to the extent where it is driving the US

0:10:56 > 0:11:02Dollar for inflation.

0:11:02 > 0:11:03But it was your Government...

0:11:03 > 0:11:07We should equate the bond note and the rand and I still make this

0:11:07 > 0:11:08argument to this day.

0:11:08 > 0:11:17Your argument was 70% of exports going to South Africa and 70%

0:11:17 > 0:11:20imports and you have a huge disaspora of people leaving.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23And in terms of the ideas that have advanced, they work,

0:11:23 > 0:11:26the economic ideas that work, and they have been tested.

0:11:26 > 0:11:27They didn't listen to you.

0:11:27 > 0:11:30They'll listen in the fullness of time and just two weeks ago

0:11:30 > 0:11:33the president was actually reciting that he has actually advised

0:11:33 > 0:11:36the Finance Minister that perhaps they should fully consider the full

0:11:36 > 0:11:39introduction of the rand and he was doing that

0:11:39 > 0:11:41on the occasion of the traditional interview.

0:11:41 > 0:11:43So you will be proved right and in such a time

0:11:43 > 0:11:51that it will happen?

0:11:51 > 0:11:53It is soon going to happen.

0:11:53 > 0:11:54It is going to happen?

0:11:54 > 0:11:57The markets are going to shift to what works.

0:11:57 > 0:12:07Markets speak louder than our own wishes.

0:12:07 > 0:12:10But it will be the case that Zimbabwe will adopt

0:12:10 > 0:12:11the South African rand.

0:12:11 > 0:12:12Well we have to fulfil processes.

0:12:13 > 0:12:16For example, if we are going to go that route we have to our own

0:12:17 > 0:12:20currency, for example, the bond route but it has to have

0:12:20 > 0:12:20parity with the rand.

0:12:21 > 0:12:24You are a long way from having a currency that could qualify.

0:12:24 > 0:12:27That bond note could be put in place to achieve the same objective.

0:12:27 > 0:12:29What you require is your own local currency.

0:12:30 > 0:12:36Which is the bond note.

0:12:36 > 0:12:38Whatever you call it, bollar, dollar.

0:12:38 > 0:12:41That equates to the rand but ultimately you are then joining

0:12:41 > 0:12:42the rand customs union.

0:12:42 > 0:12:43How quickly can that happen?

0:12:43 > 0:12:45I think it is already happening by default.

0:12:45 > 0:12:48The currency is increasingly gaining usage in a multiple currency basket.

0:12:48 > 0:12:51I can see that shift taking place because the US Dollar...

0:12:51 > 0:12:55But you have a very small number of bond notes.

0:12:56 > 0:12:59Limited to the extent that I think less than 80 million has been put

0:12:59 > 0:13:01into circulation, equivalent to the African bank currencies.

0:13:01 > 0:13:05When you talk about the fact that you need your own currency in order

0:13:05 > 0:13:08to qualify to join the union, are you suggesting that there

0:13:08 > 0:13:17is enough in circulation to do that?

0:13:17 > 0:13:18No there isn't enough.

0:13:18 > 0:13:21In fact a deficit could be up as high as 900 million.

0:13:21 > 0:13:24So what, there need to be a lot more bond notes issued?

0:13:25 > 0:13:26Not a lot more bond notes.

0:13:26 > 0:13:29They have to be bond notes equivalent to the currencies that

0:13:29 > 0:13:32have been put in place by the African banks,

0:13:32 > 0:13:39200 million dollars and I want to reserve...

0:13:40 > 0:13:41So let's talk about it.

0:13:41 > 0:13:47They continue through with that programme but the ultimate aim

0:13:47 > 0:13:50is for the rand to become Zimbabwe's currency and with that people

0:13:50 > 0:13:59will say, what about South Africa?

0:13:59 > 0:14:01The markets will lead us to what works.

0:14:01 > 0:14:03Is South Africa happy about that?

0:14:03 > 0:14:13Is South Africa happy to have them issuing currency,

0:14:13 > 0:14:18on behalf of a country with a whole heap of problems?

0:14:18 > 0:14:20Is the US happy we are using the US Dollar.

0:14:20 > 0:14:23But you are talking about joining a currency union.

0:14:23 > 0:14:24The markets will lead you there.

0:14:24 > 0:14:27When we dollarised the Zimbabwean currency, we did that well

0:14:27 > 0:14:30after the people had already moved and shifted to the US Dollar.

0:14:30 > 0:14:34It doesn't matter if South Africa is happy about it or not?

0:14:34 > 0:14:35We are talking to South African.

0:14:35 > 0:14:36What are they saying?

0:14:37 > 0:14:38They are our neighbours.

0:14:38 > 0:14:39They are warm to the idea.

0:14:39 > 0:14:44Who would not want their currency being used by a neighbour?

0:14:44 > 0:14:47Somebody who is worried about what we saw happen in Greece.

0:14:47 > 0:14:49Out of our currency we can motivate more production

0:14:49 > 0:14:51in the South African economy.

0:14:51 > 0:14:54If they extend rand loans to us and they are looking for home

0:14:54 > 0:14:55for their capital.

0:14:55 > 0:14:58And they will say you are basically just becoming the tenth province

0:14:58 > 0:14:59of South Africa.

0:14:59 > 0:15:01Well characteristicically and economically, we have always

0:15:01 > 0:15:04been, it is nothing new.

0:15:04 > 0:15:07So you are surrendering sovereignty to South Africa?

0:15:07 > 0:15:09No, there is no sovereignty in a globalised village.

0:15:09 > 0:15:11In a global village we are opening markets.

0:15:11 > 0:15:16We are opening the European economic markets.

0:15:16 > 0:15:16That

0:15:16 > 0:15:17That word

0:15:17 > 0:15:17That word is

0:15:17 > 0:15:17That word is a

0:15:17 > 0:15:17That word is a dead

0:15:17 > 0:15:20That word is a dead word.

0:15:20 > 0:15:23You point out there is a whole basket of what, almost nine

0:15:23 > 0:15:24currencies used in your country.

0:15:24 > 0:15:26Yes, and people shift...

0:15:26 > 0:15:29And what you will find is you will have a shop pricing

0:15:29 > 0:15:32things in three different currencies because the bond loan isn't

0:15:32 > 0:15:36worth its face value of the US Dollar, it is worth much less

0:15:36 > 0:15:38because nobody wants it, everybody wants US Dollars.

0:15:38 > 0:15:40Are you suggesting people will actually want to have

0:15:40 > 0:15:46South African rand as the economy that will dominate?

0:15:46 > 0:15:50Well, they are already using it and in 2009 the ratio of two rands

0:15:50 > 0:15:52to the US Dollar was achieved in several areas.

0:15:52 > 0:16:00And this is my point, the markets, people always follow what works.

0:16:00 > 0:16:06And President Mugabe is happy to become, effectively subservient

0:16:06 > 0:16:10to South Africa or at least in a situation where it will be

0:16:10 > 0:16:17the South African Central Bank that can control your currency.

0:16:17 > 0:16:21That is the argument advanced by those who don't want to see this

0:16:21 > 0:16:23situation naturally come out of this current crisis.

0:16:23 > 0:16:28There is no submission to anyone in a global economic village.

0:16:28 > 0:16:34And President Mugabe is acceptiong that?

0:16:34 > 0:16:39The monetary union, you have come out of the European Union.

0:16:39 > 0:16:42But not out of the euro.

0:16:42 > 0:16:44Using the same logic, you can see the divisions

0:16:44 > 0:16:48in your society of that issue of shifting away from a global trend

0:16:48 > 0:16:52of openness of...

0:16:52 > 0:17:01Is this the only way, because you will know that people

0:17:01 > 0:17:04say that there is professor Steve Hanker, at John Hopkins University

0:17:04 > 0:17:08in Baltimore, he said the economy is in what could turn into a death

0:17:08 > 0:17:09spiral because of the situation currently.

0:17:09 > 0:17:10Is he right?

0:17:10 > 0:17:14And is that's why you have to adopt of the South African rand?

0:17:14 > 0:17:17There are a number of economic pillars that will ultimately drive

0:17:17 > 0:17:18the Zimbabwean economy.

0:17:18 > 0:17:20One of them is what I lead, the tourism pillar.

0:17:20 > 0:17:24It is a $200 million economy when I inherited it to a $1.1

0:17:24 > 0:17:26billion by the end of 2015.

0:17:26 > 0:17:28There are serious leaps and bounds in that sector.

0:17:28 > 0:17:32It is no different from tourism globally.

0:17:32 > 0:17:42But analysts say tourism is unlikely to grow this year,

0:17:42 > 0:17:49are they right?

0:17:49 > 0:17:51No, it will actually grow.

0:17:51 > 0:17:52So those analysts are wrong?

0:17:52 > 0:17:55Are they signposting a decline in a global village,

0:17:55 > 0:18:03in trends, wages are growing in leaps and bounds.

0:18:03 > 0:18:10That's interesting, you are saying something that is counter

0:18:10 > 0:18:13to what many people would say about your sector, which is not

0:18:13 > 0:18:16least that it's expensive, partly because of the introduction

0:18:16 > 0:18:18of VAT at 15% on tourists to Zimbabwe.

0:18:18 > 0:18:21Which you didn't want.

0:18:21 > 0:18:25I didn't want it.

0:18:25 > 0:18:28It raised prices.

0:18:28 > 0:18:29I didn't want it.

0:18:29 > 0:18:30I look where I sit from.

0:18:30 > 0:18:34I have to canvass on behalf of my sector, to the extent

0:18:34 > 0:18:36that we grow it and tax it incrementally.

0:18:36 > 0:18:38I'm not an advocate of unintelligent succession.

0:18:38 > 0:18:41I think we should grow it sufficiently enough to where we tax

0:18:41 > 0:18:55it on smaller numbers but we tax a bigger portion.

0:18:55 > 0:18:57And it did have an effect, didn't it?

0:18:57 > 0:18:58It did.

0:18:58 > 0:19:01So although you are saying tourism is doing fabulously

0:19:01 > 0:19:04it was knocked by that?

0:19:04 > 0:19:06There were other actions taking place elsewhere

0:19:06 > 0:19:10which are motivating growth.

0:19:10 > 0:19:15For example, we've just commissioned the new Victoria Falls airport

0:19:15 > 0:19:20and we are signing up airlines.

0:19:20 > 0:19:22In the past we have suffered from accessibility programmes

0:19:22 > 0:19:25and challenges, where people were at sixes and sevens about how

0:19:25 > 0:19:29to reach one of the wonders of the world like Victoria Falls.

0:19:29 > 0:19:31Now they will be able to land there.

0:19:31 > 0:19:35You have a wonder of the world in your country, so you would think

0:19:35 > 0:19:37people might like to fly into Harare and drive through beautiful

0:19:38 > 0:19:38Zimbabwe.

0:19:38 > 0:19:39...

0:19:44 > 0:19:46No, to land there actually.

0:19:46 > 0:19:50But you need to do, that not least because of the many roadblocks that

0:19:50 > 0:19:53- if you do that drive you are stopped countless times

0:19:53 > 0:19:55by police or asking money off you.

0:19:55 > 0:20:00And that's not surprisingly put people off.

0:20:00 > 0:20:02It has had its impact to a limited extent.

0:20:02 > 0:20:05I commissioned myself, not anybody else, a study over

0:20:05 > 0:20:07the last year where, we are getting feedback

0:20:07 > 0:20:10from tourists on their own experiences in Zimbabwe,

0:20:10 > 0:20:11as a tourist destination.

0:20:11 > 0:20:14One of the issues that they clearly pointed out that it was completely

0:20:14 > 0:20:16undesirable, was the inordinate instance of roadblocks

0:20:16 > 0:20:19and their frequency on our highways and on roads leading

0:20:19 > 0:20:23to tourists destinations.

0:20:23 > 0:20:25Roadblocks, police basically wanting to tap them for cash.

0:20:25 > 0:20:29We are taking corrective action and if you look at my public

0:20:29 > 0:20:31statements I've been advocating for digital signing of highways.

0:20:31 > 0:20:33And more importantly where they cannot collect cash

0:20:33 > 0:20:36on those checkpoints and the rebranding of the whole

0:20:36 > 0:20:38concept of roadblocks, I actually don't like the word.

0:20:38 > 0:21:00It doesn't speak to what we seek to achieve in tourism.

0:21:00 > 0:21:03OK, but on tourism there is another - something else that

0:21:03 > 0:21:07has been happening.

0:21:07 > 0:21:13You are obviously known for your wildlife.

0:21:13 > 0:21:17Is it true that you are so cash strapped, that's the reason you have

0:21:17 > 0:21:20sold 35 elephants to China and you are advertising for American

0:21:20 > 0:21:22dentists to come and hunt your lions?

0:21:22 > 0:21:25Well, the approach to conservation is based on world

0:21:25 > 0:21:32tested conservation practices.

0:21:32 > 0:21:35You are selling off the family silver.

0:21:36 > 0:21:42So we do sell excess from time to time, in line with CITES

0:21:43 > 0:21:45provisions and it is all done above board.

0:21:45 > 0:21:47We don't have to sell to China, as it weres.

0:21:47 > 0:21:49For their zoos.

0:21:49 > 0:21:52The Zimbabwe parks and wildlife are selling to friendly countries

0:21:52 > 0:21:54to extract value out of our wildlife.

0:21:54 > 0:21:57You wouldn't be doing this if you didn't need the money.

0:21:57 > 0:22:01If you go to the United States, you see our animals.

0:22:01 > 0:22:04In the past people have attempted to use China as a point

0:22:04 > 0:22:05against our conservation practices.

0:22:05 > 0:22:08But the markets are taking our products across the borders.

0:22:08 > 0:22:16And you will sell to whomever because you need the cash?

0:22:16 > 0:22:20We sell because we have excess capacity and excess population.

0:22:20 > 0:22:23Let's turn to the future of both the country and yourself.

0:22:23 > 0:22:26Because you have been tourism minister for quite a few years

0:22:26 > 0:22:27Nearly a decade now.

0:22:27 > 0:22:31You want to leave, you want to go, you put yourself forward

0:22:31 > 0:22:33as the Secretary-General of the UN world tourism...

0:22:33 > 0:22:35Only this afternoon, I had acknowledgment that the papers

0:22:35 > 0:22:38were received and that I comply with provisions in place

0:22:38 > 0:22:42for the job.

0:22:42 > 0:22:48I'm waiting now to compete with whoever is going to be

0:22:48 > 0:22:51in the fray.

0:22:51 > 0:22:52The elections will be in April.

0:22:52 > 0:22:54They will be in May.

0:22:54 > 0:22:55So elections in May.

0:22:55 > 0:22:56May 12th.

0:22:56 > 0:22:59If you don't get that job, will you leave anyway?

0:22:59 > 0:23:01Well, I'm still minister of tourism.

0:23:01 > 0:23:04I'm on professional leave of absence right now,

0:23:04 > 0:23:06competing for this post on the back of Zimbabwe's nomination,

0:23:06 > 0:23:14so their endorsement, the African Union.

0:23:14 > 0:23:18You have an awful lot of support, there is a good chance you will get

0:23:18 > 0:23:22that job, judging by the support, but many people are saying

0:23:22 > 0:23:25you are doing what another 2 million Zimbabwean's have done,

0:23:25 > 0:23:26abandon the sinking ship?

0:23:26 > 0:23:27I'm going on deployment.

0:23:27 > 0:23:34I'm not just being deployed by Zimbabwe but by Africa.

0:23:34 > 0:23:36At some point when you come back.

0:23:36 > 0:23:39When President Mugabe has gone, is it a job you would ever consider?

0:23:39 > 0:23:43Well, if the people in the future decide that I should be place there,

0:23:43 > 0:23:45I will respond.

0:23:45 > 0:23:51So you do, you would stand as president?

0:23:52 > 0:23:53Who wouldn't stand as president?

0:23:53 > 0:23:56If I offered you the opportunity to be Prime Minister of Britain

0:23:56 > 0:23:57today, would you say no?

0:23:57 > 0:23:59It doesn't matter what I would say...

0:23:59 > 0:24:00Yeah.

0:24:00 > 0:24:03I think most people would probably say no.

0:24:03 > 0:24:05You answer the papers and calling.

0:24:05 > 0:24:05I'm a politician.

0:24:05 > 0:24:08The ultimate end in this journey is the way it

0:24:08 > 0:24:12ends, isn't it?

0:24:12 > 0:24:14Walter Mzembi, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:14 > 0:24:18Thank you.