:00:00. > :00:21.welcome to HARDtalk. In mid April, Turkish people voted will vote in a
:00:22. > :00:26.referendum to change the Constitution and give the president
:00:27. > :00:29.more power. Poll suggested as a tight race so the votes of Turkish
:00:30. > :00:33.citizens living in Europe could help swing the result. But ministers have
:00:34. > :00:38.been prevented from campaigning in some European countries, revoking a
:00:39. > :00:46.major diplomatic row. My guess to make guest is the opposition leader,
:00:47. > :00:50.Selin Sayek Boke. Born in New York she has enjoyed a meteoric rise in
:00:51. > :00:58.the party after a return to the capital nearly 15 years ago. The CHP
:00:59. > :01:01.as opposed to the referendum, claiming it will give President
:01:02. > :01:03.Erdogan too much power. But do they have an alternative vision for
:01:04. > :01:38.Turkey? Selin Sayek Boke, welcome. There are
:01:39. > :01:43.over 3 million expat Turkish voters living in Europe, about 6.5% of
:01:44. > :01:47.total voters. How far could they determine the result of the
:01:48. > :01:50.referendum? They could ease of the change the referendum result by one
:01:51. > :01:56.or two percentage points. Therefore they are critical in the end result
:01:57. > :02:01.that we would get. And, when you see what has been going on with some
:02:02. > :02:04.Turkish ministers being denied permission to campaign in some
:02:05. > :02:09.European countries, the Netherlands, Germany... What do you think? Do you
:02:10. > :02:19.support the government or do you support the European countries? I
:02:20. > :02:23.think you are -- I think providing a full-fledged picture is necessary.
:02:24. > :02:27.We have been struggling for years to find democracy in Turkey and we do
:02:28. > :02:30.not speak of it lightly. We speak of democracy is going beyond borders
:02:31. > :02:36.and being necessary for everybody and every geography. Therefore this
:02:37. > :02:40.freedom of speech is not just necessary in Turkey, it is necessary
:02:41. > :02:46.globally. Having said that, we find it unfortunate that this has become
:02:47. > :02:50.a diplomatic row, as you say, rather than having diplomacy being an
:02:51. > :02:52.integral part of the solution. Instead of actually creating a
:02:53. > :02:59.solution through diplomacy, unfortunately we have absorbed an
:03:00. > :03:02.escalation of internal politics playing here. When foreign policy
:03:03. > :03:07.was instrumental eyes by local actors all parties involved into
:03:08. > :03:12.making it a domestic argument at the end of the day. So, here there are
:03:13. > :03:19.two issues, I think. One the level of international relations where it
:03:20. > :03:25.is politics we absorb globally, putting facts in front of perception
:03:26. > :03:30.is portent and putting democracy first is a vital. This has been an
:03:31. > :03:34.international issue, unfortunately, that has been instrumental eyes into
:03:35. > :03:38.domestic politics. This is where we are unhappy with what has been going
:03:39. > :03:44.on because clearly what the MPs have done, what our ministers have done
:03:45. > :03:50.is quite against Turkish law. And we have been adamant in speaking for
:03:51. > :03:54.democracy and for rule of law. So, just to clarify, you do not believe
:03:55. > :03:59.that Turkish ministers should have been trying to address rallies to
:04:00. > :04:02.Turkish voters, expats living in Europe. You do not believe they
:04:03. > :04:08.should have done that? That they should have tried to do that?
:04:09. > :04:13.Turkish law clearly states, and this was the law that was brought into
:04:14. > :04:19.line by the ruling party themselves where they said politicians cannot
:04:20. > :04:25.go and do rallies are broad. There are two issues here, one is that as
:04:26. > :04:30.a minister, if you go as a minister abroad the new or presenting 80
:04:31. > :04:35.million people and not a political view. Unfortunately, these ministers
:04:36. > :04:40.have not travelled in ministerial positions. They have travelled to
:04:41. > :04:45.find support for a political view. This is against our domestic law.
:04:46. > :04:49.Why then, did the former chairman of your party, why was he given
:04:50. > :04:54.permission to make an anti- referendum speech by the German
:04:55. > :04:58.authorities? He was going to do that and the government says that there
:04:59. > :05:03.have been people who are pushing for a no vote allowed to campaign. The
:05:04. > :05:09.government says it sounds like a double standard that do they have a
:05:10. > :05:14.point? The content there, if it is not just for a political campaign
:05:15. > :05:18.but a meeting with your voters, you are able to do that. But not in your
:05:19. > :05:22.ministerial position, using your ministerial position facilities.
:05:23. > :05:27.Therefore there was nothing illegal in our party meeting with voters. It
:05:28. > :05:37.is the process and how it is being utilised. But it is not the fault of
:05:38. > :05:40.the AK Party, the ruling party in Turkey. Therefore anybody who wants
:05:41. > :05:44.to speak in favour of the referendum on their behalf is going to be
:05:45. > :05:50.accused by you of abusing their position of power. Well, they could
:05:51. > :05:57.go with their own party's power was rather than using the powers of the
:05:58. > :06:00.states urges a state plane with the facilities supported by the state
:06:01. > :06:08.itself. Therefore there is a fine line there which has to be walked.
:06:09. > :06:11.But in terms of the diplomatic row, the ruling party has emerged
:06:12. > :06:15.stronger from this row. The poll suggests that the two sides are
:06:16. > :06:21.running neck and neck. 40% for each and 20% of voters are undecided. One
:06:22. > :06:25.researcher has said we should not be angry with the Germans and the
:06:26. > :06:28.Dutch, we should fight them a little. They contributed to the yes
:06:29. > :06:36.vote by at least two points. So the row has benefited the ruling party.
:06:37. > :06:41.Um, well, there are two things here. One is that on the ground when I
:06:42. > :06:45.speak to the public I do not observe row actually having turned into a
:06:46. > :06:49.significant increase or a change in the pattern of votes stop however,
:06:50. > :06:54.it is quite disappointing to hear an MP from the ruling party claims
:06:55. > :07:01.success out of an issue that hurts 80 million Turkish people they live
:07:02. > :07:04.in Turkey and, beyond that, millions of Turkish expats who live abroad.
:07:05. > :07:11.It is disappointing that such an issue has been made into a point of
:07:12. > :07:20.votes in a referendum. How does it hurt the Turkish people? This whole
:07:21. > :07:24.diplomatic row has actually contributed to the very far right
:07:25. > :07:31.extreme political movement abroad which creates sentiments of other
:07:32. > :07:34.writers say she. And it is this otherness, Turkish expats abroad
:07:35. > :07:40.will be included in that group. Therefore their life will be more
:07:41. > :07:43.difficult now. Beyond that, we have an issue that this relationship
:07:44. > :07:48.between EU and Turkey is further strain. This has social
:07:49. > :07:51.implications, political implications, economic implications.
:07:52. > :07:56.Now, socially, it is the lives of the expats that I think of and the
:07:57. > :08:00.political issues that we take to the EU as a political party of the
:08:01. > :08:04.universal democratic values that it stands for and the standards that it
:08:05. > :08:09.represents, any relationship that is strained on account of the domestic
:08:10. > :08:13.political issue is suggestive that Turkey would be further away from
:08:14. > :08:17.those universal standards that we care for deeply, democratically. The
:08:18. > :08:23.third issue is that the EU was a huge economic party for Turkey. It
:08:24. > :08:27.represents 47% of Turkey's X boards and it represents 40% of Turkish
:08:28. > :08:33.imports and, beyond that bad, 80% of foreign direct investment in Turkey
:08:34. > :08:36.comes from the EU countries. Therefore, clearly, relationships
:08:37. > :08:42.that are strained just for a couple more votes in a domestic
:08:43. > :08:47.referendum... Is leading... Who are you blaming for this? We have now
:08:48. > :08:51.had the German Foreign Minister say on Saturday that today Turkey is
:08:52. > :08:54.further away from becoming a member of the European Union than ever
:08:55. > :09:05.before. You blame the state of affairs? We should take a longer
:09:06. > :09:10.perspective here. Over a course, the relations between the EU and Turkey
:09:11. > :09:15.by all parties involved in this negotiation have taken a myopic and
:09:16. > :09:23.pragmatic pro- viewpoint. Instead of being concerned for democratic
:09:24. > :09:27.values, unfortunately all parties, both at the EU and the ruling party
:09:28. > :09:30.in Turkey have made use of the process for their own political
:09:31. > :09:35.goals. This is still operational today. We believe that what we are
:09:36. > :09:39.seeing in this diplomatic row with nothing different in essence on the
:09:40. > :09:44.15 years that I just described. Having said that, all parties have a
:09:45. > :09:48.part in the blame if we are looking for a blame in this game. However, I
:09:49. > :09:55.would say that instead of looking for blame, let us look forward and
:09:56. > :09:58.bring democratic values into Turkey. Either hand with the EU by
:09:59. > :10:05.ourselves. Looking forward, one thing that may unravel if the EU-
:10:06. > :10:09.Turkey migration deal whereby Turkey would stem the flow of refugees from
:10:10. > :10:14.the Middle East through Turkish land into Europe and now we have had to
:10:15. > :10:19.Turkish Foreign Minister, as will as the president saying that they are
:10:20. > :10:23.re-evaluating his refugee policy, this refugee deal. Is that farming
:10:24. > :10:29.that concerns you? Does it seem as if Turkey is moving away even more
:10:30. > :10:34.from the European Union? Let me start by saying it is unfortunate
:10:35. > :10:38.that indeed, the relationship between the EU and Turkey was
:10:39. > :10:42.reduced to worry about the refugee crisis. This deal has to be a
:10:43. > :10:48.separate issue than EU- Turkey membership negotiations. Clearly the
:10:49. > :10:51.refugee crisis is not a Turkey crisis. It is an international
:10:52. > :10:56.crisis. Therefore the solution should not be one that is linked to
:10:57. > :11:01.this relationship but one where we have a true burden to share across
:11:02. > :11:04.all countries that have been involved in the buildup to the
:11:05. > :11:08.crisis as well is being exposed to the crisis itself. We have been
:11:09. > :11:13.unhappy and from the very outset of this that the crisis has been
:11:14. > :11:20.significantly linked to the EU Turkey relationship. It is also
:11:21. > :11:24.unfortunate that a membership negotiation is linked to a human
:11:25. > :11:29.crisis where people have been diminished into a negotiation
:11:30. > :11:33.instrument. We speak of people who have had to flee their countries.
:11:34. > :11:37.OK. So we look at the repercussions of the diplomatic row and I have
:11:38. > :11:40.been trying to save that the government has been complaining of
:11:41. > :11:46.double standards in its treatment of not only by ministers being denied
:11:47. > :11:51.permission to actually address campaigns in Europe but also, for
:11:52. > :11:54.example, we have had thousands and thousands of Turkish Kurds
:11:55. > :11:59.demonstrating and attending rallies in Germany. We have also seen their
:12:00. > :12:06.banners being held at supporting the PKK, the outlawed Kurdish separatist
:12:07. > :12:10.party which is even, by EU measures, a terror group. And so the Turkish
:12:11. > :12:14.government says it is clear it is a double standard. They have something
:12:15. > :12:21.against us. When you look at facts like that, they have a point, don't
:12:22. > :12:27.they? My then ask the following question. It is important to pose a
:12:28. > :12:30.question in return. If we seek a double standards and we may as will
:12:31. > :12:34.look internally and observe whether or not we have double standards in
:12:35. > :12:40.Turkey. In the run-up to the referendum that we are a part of a
:12:41. > :12:45.sturdy society, when I say we seek democratic values globally I don't
:12:46. > :12:48.speak about lightly. Indeed, such double standards should never be
:12:49. > :12:53.applied, especially as we speak of terrorist groups. However I have to,
:12:54. > :12:57.as a Turkish politician who was under great pressure along with 80
:12:58. > :13:02.million other people in Turkey during this process, I have to
:13:03. > :13:07.underline the same double standards observed in Turkey and they are
:13:08. > :13:13.implemented and opposed by the ruling party on any opposition on
:13:14. > :13:18.any no vote currently in Turkey. Could I pick you up on that? The
:13:19. > :13:23.president's spokesman said disputes what you are saying. He says the
:13:24. > :13:26.opposition have been allowed to campaign freely and this is because
:13:27. > :13:30.the President and the Prime Minister's rallies attract more
:13:31. > :13:37.rallies and it looks like only as a campaign, that is not true. That is
:13:38. > :13:43.a misperception. Another point, a prevention provincial AK Party
:13:44. > :13:48.deputy was forced to resign after saying the they needed to prepare
:13:49. > :13:54.for civil war if they did not get 53%. He was forced to resign by the
:13:55. > :13:55.AK Party. This does not sound like a party that is trying to promote
:13:56. > :14:06.divisive rhetoric. Lets speak with facts, not
:14:07. > :14:10.perceptions. Those at the upper end of the administration, including our
:14:11. > :14:14.president and our Prime Minister, have been yelling in meeting areas
:14:15. > :14:18.that those who say no in Turkey are terrorists. This sentence itself
:14:19. > :14:23.trickles down into society and creates physical pressure on people
:14:24. > :14:30.who are actually campaigning for Ray no. When you hear those in the upper
:14:31. > :14:34.administration call those of us who are saying no as terrorists, this
:14:35. > :14:39.creates an environment on fair in itself. A single resignation out of
:14:40. > :14:44.a party does not resolve the position. The language does not
:14:45. > :14:48.change. For myself, I have avoided going to university campuses where I
:14:49. > :14:52.was actually going to go into leadership and career services and
:14:53. > :14:56.speak to youngsters, whereas MPs from the ruling party are on the
:14:57. > :15:00.campaign speaking about the yes campaign across every campus on
:15:01. > :15:06.Turkish territory. We have those who are campaigning for no being
:15:07. > :15:11.actually, physically under pressure, in marketplace places when they are
:15:12. > :15:15.distributing fliers about no, when they speak of no on university
:15:16. > :15:20.campuses. We have students today arrested as they tweeted great no
:15:21. > :15:23.campaign. Clearly this is pressure. I can only repeat what the
:15:24. > :15:28.government is seen, that they dispute this. For sure. Looking at
:15:29. > :15:32.the substance of the referendum, the aim is to give more power to the
:15:33. > :15:37.President. The office of one minister would we abolished, but the
:15:38. > :15:40.2-term limit would be retained. The government says the president
:15:41. > :15:43.becomes head of an executive branch that can issue decrees, but there is
:15:44. > :15:47.going to be strong parliamentary oversight. It will control the
:15:48. > :15:50.budget pursestrings, the Constitutional Court can look at any
:15:51. > :15:55.kind of presidential executive order. So they say there are checks
:15:56. > :16:02.and balances within the proposal is that they are making. Unfortunately,
:16:03. > :16:07.these do not reflect the reality and the truth about what is being
:16:08. > :16:10.proposed. Clearly the separation of powers are actually fully in road
:16:11. > :16:16.under the Constitutional amendment that is being proposed. -- fully
:16:17. > :16:20.eroded. There will be no checks and balances that remain. The three
:16:21. > :16:25.branches are brought under the control of a single commander in
:16:26. > :16:30.what is being proposed. It doesn't matter who that commander is going
:16:31. > :16:33.to be. It is not about our current president, where we are against this
:16:34. > :16:38.constitutional proposal that is on the table. It is about the content.
:16:39. > :16:42.Think of the following. This president, who is going to be
:16:43. > :16:46.elected if this constitutional change happens, will have, through
:16:47. > :16:50.decrees, a full power of legislation. Therefore the
:16:51. > :16:54.legislative branch is delegated into the presidential office. When it
:16:55. > :17:00.comes to the judiciary, the two critical courts that we have, the
:17:01. > :17:03.Constitutional Court and the upper court administration, for both of
:17:04. > :17:06.these, the majority of those who will be appointed into the
:17:07. > :17:11.Constitutional Court and the upper court administration will be a lack
:17:12. > :17:15.did and appointed by the President himself, and the President will hold
:17:16. > :17:20.full power over executive powers, because the President, he or she,
:17:21. > :17:23.will be able to appoint the ministerial body. They will not be
:17:24. > :17:29.elected through the Parliament itself. Therefore, on the facade, we
:17:30. > :17:33.will have a Parliament. You could easily visit the Parliament. But
:17:34. > :17:37.when it comes to de facto, we will not have a Parliament, will have a
:17:38. > :17:40.single autocratic regime. But you are going to have a separation
:17:41. > :17:45.between the executive and the legislative branches. A presidential
:17:46. > :17:50.veto or a presidential decree can be overturned by simple majority in the
:17:51. > :17:54.Parliament, and if you take, for example, the US system at the
:17:55. > :17:57.moment, offer a presidential veto in the US to be overcome, you would
:17:58. > :18:03.need a two thirds majority in both houses of Congress. So AKP are
:18:04. > :18:06.saying that, arguably, in this instance, they have stronger checks
:18:07. > :18:12.then you would have in the American system. Look, what we are going to
:18:13. > :18:16.be exposed to, if this constitutional change happens, is
:18:17. > :18:20.the following. We will have elections where the President will
:18:21. > :18:25.be elected at the same time when MPs are being elected. And indeed, one
:18:26. > :18:31.of the change we are observing in this constitutional changes that the
:18:32. > :18:34.President will run as the chair of a political party. Therefore we are
:18:35. > :18:39.going to have a political climate where the election of the president
:18:40. > :18:47.is going to be at the same time for the party of that resident itself.
:18:48. > :18:51.-- president. And the MP list will be listed by the President, because
:18:52. > :18:55.we do not have primaries. Indeed, the MP list is drafted by the
:18:56. > :18:59.chairman of any political party. This is to suggest that it is
:19:00. > :19:03.impossible to factually expect that the President is going to be
:19:04. > :19:08.different than the majority party in the Parliament. Therefore, de facto,
:19:09. > :19:13.unfortunately, there will be no checks and balances in the system.
:19:14. > :19:17.So you are opposing it, obviously. The head of the Constitutional Court
:19:18. > :19:20.in Parliament says the CHP, your party, are opposing the change to
:19:21. > :19:24.protect their own interests, because when you look at the figures, you
:19:25. > :19:27.know that if you feel that a candidate in a presidential election
:19:28. > :19:31.you have no chance of winning. If you look at what happened in
:19:32. > :19:36.November 2015, your party won 25% of the vote, AKP won 49% of the vote.
:19:37. > :19:41.If you look at approval ratings, the head of your party has approval
:19:42. > :19:46.ratings of 26% and President Erdogan has approval ratings of 50%. They
:19:47. > :19:51.are far ahead of you in terms of the popularity stakes. Clearly Arab
:19:52. > :19:59.rejection is not about our future. It is about Turkey's future. --
:20:00. > :20:03.clearly our objection. We object to the fact that Turkey will lose its
:20:04. > :20:06.democratic values, it will loose alternate voices being heard at the
:20:07. > :20:12.same time, and indeed, having democracy alive in our Parliament.
:20:13. > :20:14.Therefore we are not concerned that we are not going to be in power.
:20:15. > :20:18.Indeed, there will be more opportunity for us if we are
:20:19. > :20:22.thinking of a 2-party system to be in power in this new proposed
:20:23. > :20:26.system. Rather, we care to have a full representation. This is why,
:20:27. > :20:31.two weeks ago, we actually offered a package to the Parliaments where we
:20:32. > :20:35.said, let's change certain laws in Turkey, rather than the
:20:36. > :20:38.constitution, and that strengthened the parliamentary representation in
:20:39. > :20:42.Turkey, where each and every one of us and each and every vote is
:20:43. > :20:47.represented in the Parliament. Therefore, we do not care if we are
:20:48. > :20:51.strong or not. Clearly we have come as a political party, the wish to be
:20:52. > :20:56.the leading party. But our concern is not about us, it is about Turkey.
:20:57. > :21:00.Having said that, there you are, Turkey's oldest political party,
:21:01. > :21:07.established by the founder, Ataturk. But you have not let a majority
:21:08. > :21:11.government since 1950 and the AKP party, and you come on the scene,
:21:12. > :21:16.relatively, is riding high with the electorate because you cannot go
:21:17. > :21:22.beyond that 25% of voters to back you. So briefly, how can you appeal
:21:23. > :21:26.to those more socially conservative people in Turkey who are proud of
:21:27. > :21:32.their Islamic heritage? Because you are so sick of the rest. --
:21:33. > :21:39.secularist. Let me state the following. The problem in per -- in
:21:40. > :21:43.Turkey in the past few decades, in the past 15 years, is that politics
:21:44. > :21:47.has become extremely identity driven. You have political parties
:21:48. > :21:51.representing identities and polarising through these identities.
:21:52. > :21:56.This is extremely risky in countries such as Turkey, that have a
:21:57. > :22:00.heterogeneous population with differences in their beliefs, their
:22:01. > :22:04.ways of life, their ethnicity is. Therefore we need to have a new
:22:05. > :22:08.political language that looks beyond this and is blind to identity, but
:22:09. > :22:13.speaks of politics when it comes to content and touches upon your life.
:22:14. > :22:16.We have indeed, in the past two years, changed our language
:22:17. > :22:22.significantly, and the content of issues we speak of. We speak of
:22:23. > :22:27.minimum wage. Minimum wage touches upon millions. It is not about your
:22:28. > :22:32.identity. I was just saying, how can you have mass appeal to people who
:22:33. > :22:38.have tried in that Islamist roots, as well as hanging onto your
:22:39. > :22:42.secularist tradition. Finally, an independent writer and analyst has
:22:43. > :22:45.said that your party, the CHP, is finally getting religion, a
:22:46. > :22:49.political party that does not compare in this fact is doomed to be
:22:50. > :22:56.marginalised. The irony is, your party can only do better against the
:22:57. > :23:00.AKP by becoming more like them. I have to strongly disagree with that.
:23:01. > :23:03.This is why our mentioned the minimum wage package. We are
:23:04. > :23:09.speaking of the economic policy framework. If we are going to
:23:10. > :23:12.overcome this identity driven politics, through secularism, we
:23:13. > :23:16.should be able to give the message that this protects everybody's
:23:17. > :23:21.religious beliefs, rather than alleviating religion from the pop
:23:22. > :23:29.elation. Here we have taken leaps and bounds in Turkey. However this
:23:30. > :23:34.does not mean that we do not have a political ground to speak of, right?
:23:35. > :23:38.Economic policy is crosscutting. Regardless of what you believe in,
:23:39. > :23:41.regardless of your ethnicity, indeed, your social issues and your
:23:42. > :23:45.economic issues bring you around the same table. It is blind to your
:23:46. > :23:50.identity. This is what our politics as to speak of without denying that
:23:51. > :23:54.what makes us does indeed include what we believe in, does include our
:23:55. > :24:01.ethnicity. But the government and politics has to be blind to this.
:24:02. > :24:02.Selin Sayek Boke, in Ankara, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. A great
:24:03. > :24:27.pleasure. For England and Wales,
:24:28. > :24:29.some heavy rain over The forecast is
:24:30. > :24:33.complicated because this band of rain, as soon as it moves
:24:34. > :24:37.in, is going to stop moving, as this low pressure slips
:24:38. > :24:40.southwards towards Spain.