0:00:00 > 0:00:12Now on BBC News, it's HARDtalk.
0:00:37 > 0:00:44Thank you.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47You talk about frustration with government now,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51but your whole career basically sounds as though you have been
0:00:51 > 0:00:54banging your head against a brick wall.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Did you learn some lessons from that?
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Of course, of course.
0:00:59 > 0:01:00What lessons did you draw?
0:01:00 > 0:01:03It seems like the only lesson you took was,
0:01:03 > 0:01:06you know what, after a while you betray your best
0:01:06 > 0:01:06friends in politics?
0:01:06 > 0:01:07No.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09I don't agree with that at all.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10I bet you know.
0:01:10 > 0:01:20I bet you know!
0:01:22 > 0:01:26How do you feel as president that you are going to go down in history
0:01:26 > 0:01:29as a president who presided over a loss of a large part
0:01:29 > 0:01:34of your territory?
0:01:38 > 0:01:40I understood that you wished to do this interview,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and you wished to reply to questions that we,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45in the name of the BBC, are putting towards you.
0:01:45 > 0:01:46Am I not right?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Yeah, cheers.
0:01:48 > 0:01:48HARDtalk.
0:01:48 > 0:01:49HARDtalk.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52To the next 20 years!
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Well you got water and I've got wine?!
0:01:54 > 0:02:01That's terrible!
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Our show has a name which gives you a very strong clue
0:02:04 > 0:02:08as to what you're going to get.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10And I do wonder sometimes whether calling the programme
0:02:10 > 0:02:13HARDtalk has been a huge advantage, because it cuts through.
0:02:13 > 0:02:26And I think people know what our show is about.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28It has an extraordinarily clear and strong profile.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32But also, there are some people around the world who will be
0:02:32 > 0:02:34approached by their PR people and say, "Oh,
0:02:34 > 0:02:36there is this BBC programme, HARDtalk, on the phone
0:02:36 > 0:02:39and they would really like to talk to you."
0:02:39 > 0:02:42And I just wonder whether calling it HARDtalk is, for some,
0:02:42 > 0:02:43a red flag.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45It's the BBC doing what the BBC...
0:02:45 > 0:02:46Shouldn't it be a red flag?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Shouldn't we also be calling it what it is?
0:02:49 > 0:02:49Of course.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52But interestingly, if you look at the way in which,
0:02:52 > 0:02:53over 20 years...
0:02:53 > 0:02:54Do you want to rebrand?
0:02:54 > 0:02:55Not at all.
0:02:55 > 0:02:56After 20 years?
0:02:56 > 0:02:56Not at all.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00But if you look over 20 years at the degree to which now
0:03:00 > 0:03:02politicians want to manage everything about their public
0:03:02 > 0:03:04profile, and their spin doctors are multiplying,
0:03:04 > 0:03:07their entourage is expanding, and now they have the unmediated
0:03:07 > 0:03:09platform of social media, which Donald Trump has exploited
0:03:09 > 0:03:14more than any other politician, I am just going to be interested
0:03:14 > 0:03:18to see, over the next - let's hope - 20 years of HARDtalk,
0:03:18 > 0:03:24whether we still get the same access to those in power.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26But to me, HARDtalk is not harsh talk.
0:03:26 > 0:03:27It's asking tough questions.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29It's not a politically closed country then?
0:03:29 > 0:03:31Because you have got people like the opposition leader,
0:03:31 > 0:03:33Victoire Ingabire, who is on trial because she...
0:03:33 > 0:03:35I wish I knew what you were...
0:03:35 > 0:03:42No, but I'm just putting it to you.
0:03:42 > 0:03:43Let's talk about things that matter.
0:03:43 > 0:03:44This matters, doesn't it?
0:03:44 > 0:03:46The national treasurer of the opposition,
0:03:46 > 0:03:51United Democratic Force, says dissidents remain silent out
0:03:51 > 0:03:52of fear in Rwanda.
0:03:52 > 0:03:53What is your response?
0:03:53 > 0:03:57My response is that maybe you should take all your time,
0:03:57 > 0:04:00or most of your time, asking every leader of this world
0:04:00 > 0:04:01on these programmes.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05Well, I mean we do put these points and criticisms to leaders,
0:04:05 > 0:04:06other politicians, when we talk...
0:04:06 > 0:04:08The cynicism that comes along with it.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11I wasn't being cynical.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14I was giving you a chance to rebuff some of these allegations.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16I will tell you one thing.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17We have explained these so-called allegations.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20But, and I'm glad you're even putting it that way yourself,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23you are talking about all of the progress that Rwandans
0:04:23 > 0:04:26are making in their lives, and then you put in "but".
0:04:26 > 0:04:28Nobody should really be, who submits themselves to doing
0:04:28 > 0:04:30HARDtalk, should worry about hard questions,
0:04:30 > 0:04:36because it's also fair, because you get a chance...
0:04:36 > 0:04:37Did Tony Blair worry?
0:04:37 > 0:04:39He never came on the programme.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Kofi Annan never came on the programme.
0:04:41 > 0:04:42No, I agree with you.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45We lost a lot of interviews because it was a tough programme.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Not because of the name, but because of how the interviews
0:04:49 > 0:04:57were done.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00If you give somebody a tough question and you don't give them
0:05:00 > 0:05:03the opportunity to answer it, I think that's not fair play.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06And I think a lot of people watching may feel that sometimes.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08And that is why I defend calling it HARDtalk,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13but I just think that it ought to be fair in the sense that if you ask
0:05:13 > 0:05:16somebody something, they should have the chance to answer it.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19Nobody is ever going to agree on what is fair.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21And you get constantly criticised for interrupting.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24But if you don't interrupt certain people, you're going to get a speech
0:05:24 > 0:05:25for 20 minutes.
0:05:25 > 0:05:25Of course.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27This shouldn't be a freeride.
0:05:27 > 0:05:28Have you had anybody walk out?
0:05:28 > 0:05:29I have.
0:05:29 > 0:05:29Yes.
0:05:29 > 0:05:30And didn't come back?
0:05:30 > 0:05:31Yes.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33My walkout was with a gentleman called Max Clifford,
0:05:33 > 0:05:34who was a PR guru...
0:05:34 > 0:05:36He is now in jail.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Nothing to do with my interview, but he is now in jail!
0:05:39 > 0:05:42He walked out after about eight minutes, which I realise was quite
0:05:42 > 0:05:45a clever tactic, because if you walk out early in an interview,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48obviously in HARDtalk, where we fill half an hour slot,
0:05:48 > 0:05:51you walk out very early, then there is no programme.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54You say Jade is happy, and I appreciate you have that long
0:05:54 > 0:05:58chats with her about all of this.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00But she is obviously a very vulnerable woman.
0:06:00 > 0:06:00And she's dying...
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I'll tell you what, let's just call it a day.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06You know, I just don't like the tone of all this.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07I really don't need this.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10You are quoting interviews I did five years ago.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13I thought this was a general conversation about my business
0:06:13 > 0:06:14and what I do.
0:06:14 > 0:06:15No, it is.
0:06:15 > 0:06:15That's fine.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16Good luck to you.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18If you come back, Max...
0:06:18 > 0:06:20I haven't got the time or the inclination.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22You do what you want with it.
0:06:22 > 0:06:22I'm quite happy...
0:06:22 > 0:06:25I'm very comfortable with what I'm actually doing.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Look, if you let us continue, the whole interview is going
0:06:28 > 0:06:30to touch on many aspects of your business.
0:06:30 > 0:06:39It's not just...
0:06:39 > 0:06:40I'm sure it is.
0:06:40 > 0:06:40Yes.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43You've made it very clear where you're coming from.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45I can see where you're coming from.
0:06:45 > 0:06:46Good luck to you.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Well, it's a shame that he can't stick around to do the full
0:06:50 > 0:06:50interview.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53It was a walkout over, again a matter that to many people
0:06:53 > 0:06:55would have seemed quite insignificant, but he was just
0:06:55 > 0:07:00in a very bad mood and he just didn't like the cut of my jib.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02He tossed off the microphone and off he went.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06He kicked the studio wall on the way out and a chunk of plaster fell off.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07So another satisfied client!
0:07:08 > 0:07:11He can't sue you because he's behind bars, so you're all right!
0:07:11 > 0:07:12He's in prison on matters unrelated.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16And they're going to let you know when he's released, are they?
0:07:16 > 0:07:19You do feel slightly conscious that now we've got a gap to fill.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22You know what?
0:07:22 > 0:07:24All we did was put it in the Christmas video,
0:07:24 > 0:07:27in the sort of upsum of the year.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29That was as good as we could do with it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31But we couldn't use it as a programme.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35I do wonder though, and I'm just thinking now about the future
0:07:35 > 0:07:41of the show, whether again, whether we believe that
0:07:41 > 0:07:44the attention span of audiences around the world for news
0:07:44 > 0:07:47and current affairs still means that the full on half hour intense,
0:07:47 > 0:07:48thoroughgoing, compelling sort of inquisition...
0:07:48 > 0:07:50What other programme does it?
0:07:50 > 0:07:53We are about the only programme in the world that does it.
0:07:53 > 0:07:54Why is that?
0:07:54 > 0:07:57Why have other broadcasters given up on the testing longform interview?
0:07:57 > 0:07:59I think they have underestimated the public's appetite.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02I think the public is keen on accountability, much more now,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05keen on facts in a way they were not before.
0:08:05 > 0:08:06Facts are in public focus.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08I think we are increasingly relevant.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10OK, but where will you go with it?
0:08:10 > 0:08:16You were saying your starting point was for the next 20 years.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Where I'm going with it is, I think about my own kids.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23You know, I've got kids who are late teens and early 20s,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and they have grown up not really, frankly, settling down to watch news
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and current affairs television in the way that we did.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31So do you think it doesn't have a future?
0:08:31 > 0:08:32No, I think because...
0:08:32 > 0:08:35Thank goodness, I still believe, from the feedback I get,
0:08:35 > 0:08:38anecdotal and the evidence we get in audience research,
0:08:38 > 0:08:40that there are enough people who value what we do,
0:08:40 > 0:08:42that we've got a very strong future.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44And I think Tim is right, in the current political environment
0:08:44 > 0:08:47around the world, and all this discussion of fake news
0:08:47 > 0:08:50and alternative facts, and an attempt by so many people
0:08:50 > 0:08:51in power to manipulate information...
0:08:51 > 0:08:52It's an antidote.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55But you must have had people walk out on you?
0:08:55 > 0:08:55Very few, actually.
0:08:55 > 0:09:03Very few.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06One of the most memorable was James Hewitt, Diana's lover.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07Yes, yeah.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10We got to a point in the interview where I said, "You've just written
0:09:10 > 0:09:13this tell all book, - did you not consider the feelings
0:09:13 > 0:09:15of her children, the Princes?"
0:09:15 > 0:09:18And he went, took of the microphone, and said, "That's a disgusting
0:09:18 > 0:09:19question to ask.
0:09:19 > 0:09:20You're a cad!"
0:09:20 > 0:09:22I said, "I'm a cad?"
0:09:22 > 0:09:32I'm suddenly the bad person in this!
0:09:32 > 0:09:34He got up and he walked out.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And unfortunately, again, as it was only eight or ten minutes
0:09:37 > 0:09:39in, we didn't have a programme to show.
0:09:39 > 0:09:40But no, surprisingly few.
0:09:40 > 0:09:41Surprisingly few.
0:09:41 > 0:09:42I think a lot of people...
0:09:42 > 0:09:46I remember a Deputy Foreign Minister in Israel, he was a rabbi.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49He said he came on the programme and in 25 years of public life
0:09:49 > 0:09:53he had never had such a response to anything he'd done in public
0:09:53 > 0:10:01as to the HARDtalk interview.
0:10:01 > 0:10:02Tim, that's so true.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05And you've just planted in my head a thought about Said Barakat,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08about whom you have interviewed a lot of times.
0:10:08 > 0:10:09So have I.
0:10:09 > 0:10:09Yes, yes.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13Who you reduced to tears.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16But interestingly, the last time I spoke to him,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19and he has been the chief Palestinian negotiator for a long
0:10:19 > 0:10:22time, he's been around that story from when I was a cub reporter
0:10:22 > 0:10:24following the Oslo process in the early 1990s.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Said Barakat, just a few months ago when he spoke to me,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31was so low, so depressed, so run dry by that whole process,
0:10:31 > 0:10:33which is frankly stuck, going nowhere, moribund,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35dead, in many many ways...
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I have never heard you this bleak, this negative, this despairing.
0:10:39 > 0:10:45Is it all over for you?
0:10:45 > 0:10:49You know, if I answer you in any way I may cause more deaths.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51I just want to keep a ray of hope.
0:10:51 > 0:11:05I just want to keep a ray of hope.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09Because I know at the end of the day violence will breed more violence.
0:11:09 > 0:11:10Violence is not the answer.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13I know that the answer is for someone in the international
0:11:13 > 0:11:16community to bring to the Security Council resolution
0:11:16 > 0:11:18reiterating the two state solution within a specific time frame,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21within an international conference, saying the state of Palestine
0:11:21 > 0:11:24to live side-by-side with the state of Israel on 1967 lines.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26Now, if people ask me, "How come you failed?"
0:11:26 > 0:11:28I could not deliver, that is the truth.
0:11:28 > 0:11:29Now, do I leave?
0:11:29 > 0:11:31I'm thinking about it.
0:11:31 > 0:11:32I'm seriously thinking about it, Stephen.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36I'm seriously thinking about it because there is much that I can't
0:11:36 > 0:11:38take from my own family, from my own neighbours.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41I look them in the eyes, I wasn't able to deliver.
0:11:41 > 0:11:51And that is the truth.
0:11:52 > 0:11:53An extraordinary omission, isn't it?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56And it comes back to that word we used earlier,
0:11:56 > 0:11:57which is raw.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58HARDtalk can be raw.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01And because we have that extra time to really dig deep into somebody's
0:12:01 > 0:12:04psyche, there are times when they express emotion and dig
0:12:04 > 0:12:07deep into themselves in a way that you don't see anywhere else.
0:12:07 > 0:12:15Sometimes we all interview celebrities, actors and musicians
0:12:15 > 0:12:18and so on, and I still think they should be subjected
0:12:18 > 0:12:19to some rigorous questioning.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21And I'm thinking most recently of Burt Reynolds,
0:12:21 > 0:12:22whom I interviewed.
0:12:22 > 0:12:23And he was charming.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24And he enjoyed it.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27But it was obviously tougher kind of questions than he would normally
0:12:27 > 0:12:29have on the celebrity circuit.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32And I just said to him at the end, "You're approaching your 80th
0:12:32 > 0:12:34birthday", and so on, "are you happy?
0:12:34 > 0:12:36Would you describe yourself as happy?"
0:12:36 > 0:12:45And he said, "I was until I started this interview!"
0:12:45 > 0:12:47I always find that people are more...
0:12:47 > 0:12:50Celebrities often seem surprised that they enjoy it so much.
0:12:50 > 0:12:51I really like that.
0:12:51 > 0:12:58It's a whole different interview to what I'm used to.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02I mean, when you look back at some of the stuff that you did then,
0:13:02 > 0:13:03are you guilty of misogyny?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05I wrote those lyrics for that song.
0:13:05 > 0:13:06You can come straight...
0:13:06 > 0:13:10It was very much a tongue in cheek song, not misogynistic in any way.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12How do you explain it to your daughters?
0:13:12 > 0:13:14You have got teenage daughters now.
0:13:14 > 0:13:14Um...
0:13:14 > 0:13:17Well, there's a spirit of rock and roll that has,
0:13:17 > 0:13:18that is, to me, far and above...
0:13:19 > 0:13:20You know, misogyny or homophobia, or any of those things.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29There's just like this - primal sex and rock and roll
0:13:29 > 0:13:49are just hand in hand.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51How would I explain it to my daughters?
0:13:51 > 0:13:53But don't you think it's...
0:13:53 > 0:13:56I mean, you make the point when you are writing this book that
0:13:57 > 0:13:59you are responsible for some of the stuff.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Isn't that spirit of rock and roll responsible in influencing people
0:14:02 > 0:14:06in the way that they see things?
0:14:06 > 0:14:09I think I give humans a lot more credit.
0:14:09 > 0:14:16If I write a song or a lyric, if it influences them in a bad way,
0:14:16 > 0:14:17which I rarely ever hear about...
0:14:17 > 0:14:2099.9% of the times people come up to me and say,
0:14:21 > 0:14:30"Your music changed my life" - it's always a positive thing.
0:14:30 > 0:14:36It's a sign of something really rather
0:14:36 > 0:14:39wonderful about some of these celebrities who live in a bubble,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42frankly, of minders and PR, but particularly the selling of the
0:14:42 > 0:14:45movie, where there is a conveyor belt of five-minute interview where
0:14:45 > 0:14:48they talk a little bit about the plot and their co-stars
0:14:48 > 0:14:50and say what a wonderful movie it is, and then
0:14:51 > 0:14:54they move on.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Whereas if they come on HARDtalk, it's going to be nothing like that.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00And they have 25 minutes where the questions could be
0:15:00 > 0:15:06about their politics, they could be about decisions
0:15:06 > 0:15:09they made earlier in life that were very difficult at the time.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12It could be about a whole bunch of things.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14It certainly won't be a puff for their book,
0:15:14 > 0:15:16their movie, their latest perfume.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19And I think hats off to those who are prepared to do it.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23It's all set up, typically it's in the studio, and it's all set up
0:15:23 > 0:15:24in this confrontation.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26But sometimes, and often when you are out doing
0:15:26 > 0:15:28an on-location interview, when things go really wrong,
0:15:28 > 0:15:30suddenly a sort of comedy.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32Can you think of one?
0:15:32 > 0:15:36I can think of one which was meant to be in the studio,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39where Ilya Ponomarev, the Russian MP, the only member
0:15:39 > 0:15:41of the Duma who had voted against the annexation of Crimea,
0:15:41 > 0:15:44and we'd set it up.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48And every single thing technically went wrong.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Such that when he was doing the interview it started raining.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55And some guy put up an umbrella and you could see this hand come
0:15:55 > 0:15:57in from the side of the screen!
0:15:57 > 0:15:59I was like, "This is not really HARDtalk!"
0:15:59 > 0:16:02And then they moved it under this awning, and then the awning
0:16:02 > 0:16:04collapsed on his head, with this water pouring out.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06And he was so good-natured.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09I was sort of giving him this hard time about Russian politics.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11I mean, it was just...
0:16:11 > 0:16:14By the end of it it was just like, "Thank you so much
0:16:14 > 0:16:15for coming on HARDtalk!
0:16:15 > 0:16:17I can't quite believe we got there!"
0:16:17 > 0:16:20It's interesting you raise funny moments, because actually I think
0:16:20 > 0:16:23sometimes when you conduct a HARDtalk interview,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26although it's hard, there are moments of humour.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29And actually I think it's a very good way of the interviewee
0:16:29 > 0:16:33disarming you, the interviewer.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35And I'm thinking in particular of Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39And I remember saying to him when I did a HARDtalk with him,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42"Well, you know, President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe has described
0:16:42 > 0:16:46you as an evil little interfering bishop."
0:16:46 > 0:16:50And he looked at me and he said, "Did he say that?
0:16:50 > 0:16:52Did he really say that?!"
0:16:52 > 0:16:55He started laughing and laughing and laughing, chuckling,
0:16:55 > 0:16:56with his shoulders moving up and down.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58What did I do, of course?
0:16:58 > 0:16:59Laugh my head off, too.
0:16:59 > 0:17:00On air!
0:17:00 > 0:17:03So sometimes there are a humorous moments on air.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04Tutu is wonderful for that, wasn't he?
0:17:04 > 0:17:07He is.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09But that's a very good way of defusing actually
0:17:09 > 0:17:10a difficult question.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12And the same with Burt Reynolds.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15I remember saying to him, "Have you used your good looks
0:17:15 > 0:17:17and your sex appeal to further your career?"
0:17:17 > 0:17:19Nothing like buttering him up, of course!
0:17:19 > 0:17:19Exactly.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22He did that nude photo spread.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25It was a very iconic image of you lying on your side
0:17:25 > 0:17:28with just your hand protecting your modesty.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30Yeah.
0:17:30 > 0:17:32Both my hands, by the way!
0:17:32 > 0:17:34Which are not small.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36And I was...
0:17:36 > 0:17:38Yes, it made me happy.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40LAUGHTER
0:17:41 > 0:17:42How did you react?
0:17:42 > 0:17:43I laughed!
0:17:43 > 0:17:44Wouldn't you?
0:17:44 > 0:17:47And blushed.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51But you know we were talking about the future of HARDtalk?
0:17:51 > 0:17:54And where it stands now in a world of social media,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57where the digital revolution means the media is so much more
0:17:58 > 0:17:59fragmented.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03I think now when you have a president like Donald Trump
0:18:03 > 0:18:05obviously tweeting, because he doesn't like
0:18:05 > 0:18:07the mainstream media, because he describes us,
0:18:07 > 0:18:08including the BBC, as dishonest.
0:18:08 > 0:18:09It's called the BBC.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12And I think he said, "Well, that's another beauty",
0:18:12 > 0:18:16he said about the BBC!
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Anyway, but I think it is interesting because now,
0:18:19 > 0:18:23you know, he communicates directly with the electorate
0:18:24 > 0:18:24through his tweets.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27And sometimes in the mainstream media, written as well as
0:18:27 > 0:18:30broadcasters, we're having to get our news from social media,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33from Twitter, what the president of the United States says.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36In a way, do you think it's kind of the tail wagging the dog?
0:18:36 > 0:18:37I don't know.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42I have to say I think Trump is a master of understanding
0:18:42 > 0:18:45the power of social media, and I think he has changed politics
0:18:45 > 0:18:46in that sense.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49I don't think democratic politics will ever be the same again.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Other people have watched the phenomenon, the fact he didn't
0:18:52 > 0:18:55play the game of spending vast amounts of money on TV advertising,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58but reached his public, unmediated, through his Twitter feed and social
0:18:58 > 0:19:01media platform, and they have learned a lot from it.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04Clearly we won't get Trump, but we might get people around him.
0:19:04 > 0:19:09Surely that's where we have to be part of the antidote to fake news?
0:19:09 > 0:19:12Wouldn't it be great to get Trump though?
0:19:12 > 0:19:12Oh, my God!
0:19:12 > 0:19:14We'd scratch each other's eyes out!
0:19:14 > 0:19:16I was going to say, we'd all be fighting!
0:19:17 > 0:19:19I did actually do Trump in 1998.
0:19:19 > 0:19:20Yeah.
0:19:21 > 0:19:22Yeah, yeah.
0:19:22 > 0:19:23On HARDTalk.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25When he was sort of pretty unknown.
0:19:25 > 0:19:26What was he like?
0:19:26 > 0:19:28It wasn't a very good interview.
0:19:28 > 0:19:29It was hardly my finest hour.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31There was very little time for preparation.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34But there is one thing that stuck in my mind.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37You talk in your book about getting even, the importance
0:19:37 > 0:19:37of getting even.
0:19:38 > 0:19:38Is revenge sweet?
0:19:38 > 0:19:40I believe strongly in getting even.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43If somebody has hurt you, if somebody has gone out
0:19:43 > 0:19:46of their way to hurt you, I think if you have the opportunity
0:19:46 > 0:19:50you should certainly go out of your way to do a number on them.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53I have had more criticism about that one statement in my book
0:19:53 > 0:19:54than any other statement.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00the rabbis, they have all said, what a terrible thing to say.
0:20:00 > 0:20:01That it's against our teachings.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03I believe in an eye for an eye.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07We were in a tiny little room and he wouldn't shake hands.
0:20:07 > 0:20:07He's a germaphobe.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11He is also worried about his hands and the size of his hands!
0:20:11 > 0:20:15We do need to be testing the people around Trump.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20And we need to be reaching out to them and interviewing them
0:20:20 > 0:20:23as often as we possibly can.
0:20:23 > 0:20:30But I just think we need to learn, too, that while we are fundamentally
0:20:30 > 0:20:36committed to the longform interview, and that is what we do,
0:20:36 > 0:20:38we need to make sure that the product, the content,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42which matters so much to all of us, is consumed by as many
0:20:42 > 0:20:45people as possible.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47And the truth is, I talked about my kids earlier,
0:20:47 > 0:20:52there is a change in the media landscape.
0:20:52 > 0:20:53We have to react to it.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56We have to make sure that HARDtalk does have a profile.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00Here is a thought for you all.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04When the lights are on, the studio is set and we say,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07"Welcome to HARDtalk", do you really feel you're
0:21:07 > 0:21:09being yourself, or is there an element of performance
0:21:09 > 0:21:12about it all?
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Well, I don't do that to my husband every day!
0:21:14 > 0:21:16I don't know about you!
0:21:16 > 0:21:18You wouldn't have a husband very long.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20Exactly!
0:21:20 > 0:21:22And sometimes people...
0:21:22 > 0:21:25You have heard of this response from people sometimes,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29which is, they assume it must be that way you think.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32And you say, "No, I'm challenging a person's position."
0:21:32 > 0:21:34If it wasn't us, it would be an act.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38And we don't go on HARDtalk to act, we go on HARDtalk
0:21:38 > 0:21:40because we actually care about the issues.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42We do care about the issues.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44True, but sometimes, depending on who the interviewee is,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48you take a position to challenge them.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Well you always take the opposite position, don't you?
0:21:51 > 0:21:54I was glad to say, I mean, I reflected on it a lot,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57because I've done the show consistently for the last 11 years,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00and I think to myself sometimes, "Am I really a nasty person?"
0:22:00 > 0:22:04Then I say to myself, "No, I'm not, what I am is curious
0:22:04 > 0:22:07and I love an argument."
0:22:07 > 0:22:09And I think your point is interesting.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12You can't go into that studio and pretend to be something
0:22:12 > 0:22:13you are not, not consistently.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15That would really get you down after a while.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17I do love a good argument.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18I love a challenge.
0:22:18 > 0:22:19And I am very curious.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23And I love to talk to people and find out what makes them tick.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26I'm an angry old man and HARDtalk helped me get there!
0:22:26 > 0:22:27LAUGHTER
0:22:27 > 0:22:28Now you are embittered as well!
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Since you stopped doing it you look ten years younger!
0:22:31 > 0:22:32You laugh a lot longer.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35I've been doing HARDtalk for the same length as you,
0:22:35 > 0:22:36but not obviously as often.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40I would say that I am - part of me is the person
0:22:40 > 0:22:48you see on HARDtalk.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50I like rigorous argument, engaging in considered
0:22:50 > 0:22:51argument, intellectual jousting.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54I think that's one aspect with some of the interviews we do.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57I think holding people to account, as somebody who was born in Africa,
0:22:57 > 0:23:01where over the years I have seen that the media isn't as rigorous
0:23:01 > 0:23:05as it should be in many African countries, I feel that I am
0:23:05 > 0:23:09fulfilling a kind of...
0:23:09 > 0:23:15Something that is important for me is being a voice for people,
0:23:15 > 0:23:18in being able to put those questions.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21So I would say yes, the person you see, it is the same.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24Although when I do meet people, they say sometimes, "Hello,
0:23:24 > 0:23:25Zeinab Badawi, no HARDtalk, please!"
0:23:26 > 0:23:29They might say at the end of it, "Actually, you are very, very nice."
0:23:29 > 0:23:31I say, "Yes, but of course."
0:23:31 > 0:23:32That's the classic.
0:23:32 > 0:23:33"Oh, you're much nicer!"
0:23:33 > 0:23:35I get that all the time.
0:23:35 > 0:23:36And they are, they are.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37You know what, everybody.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40As I say on the show, we have run out of time.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42But we can't end this conversation without
0:23:42 > 0:23:43a classic HARDtalk handshake.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44Oh, the handshake!
0:23:44 > 0:23:45And long may HARDtalk continue.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49Yes.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52Good luck.
0:23:52 > 0:23:59Good ruck. That's a tight grip you have got!