:00:00. > :00:16.When it comes to seeking justice for some of the wrongs committed by
:00:17. > :00:20.American justice, the record hasn't always been that good. My guest
:00:21. > :00:27.today flew into the middle of the massacre in Vietnam and stopped the
:00:28. > :00:31.slaughter. It was more than 30 years before anybody even bother to say
:00:32. > :00:42.thank you. As the US military now learned the lessons he should have
:00:43. > :00:46.done from Vietnam? Hugh Thompson, are very warm welcome to the
:00:47. > :00:50.programme. When you hear allegations of brutality by US troops in Iraq,
:00:51. > :01:08.Delhi to respect the Geneva conventions, what goes through your
:01:09. > :01:14.-- Max Bailey. Dad -- failure. -- bad leadership. How could something
:01:15. > :01:21.happen ladies in the prison that seems to have happened -- happened
:01:22. > :01:31.in prison. It shouldn't have happened. In 1991, commanders were
:01:32. > :01:42.told that when they went to desert storm, no My Lai... That made me
:01:43. > :01:50.feel good echoes I thought we had learnt something. -- because. To get
:01:51. > :01:56.slapped in the face with this, it is horrendous. You think there will be
:01:57. > :02:00.a full investigation? You have been part of investigations in the past.
:02:01. > :02:14.Allah think there will be a full investigation. --I think they're
:02:15. > :02:24.well. What I knew wasn't made public till afterwards. This didn't take
:02:25. > :02:28.that long. So it's out there. Technology is better and I think
:02:29. > :02:35.this could be an investigation. Having people in the military
:02:36. > :02:41.careers are really ruined. I do think they will walk scot-free this
:02:42. > :02:47.time, I really don't. When President Nixon first commented on the My Lai
:02:48. > :02:52.massacre, he said it was an isolated is that -- incident. Was it? I think
:02:53. > :02:56.it was. I would have very difficult time with myself if I thought that I
:02:57. > :03:03.was part of something that was done all the time. I didn't see it.
:03:04. > :03:09.Innocent civilians do get killed in wars. I don't care what army, what
:03:10. > :03:16.country... But My Lai wasn't that, was it? No, it wasn't. These were
:03:17. > :03:25.murdered. Lined up, marched down in a ditch. 170 of them. Hands above
:03:26. > :03:28.their head and executed. That is not war. That is not what a soldier from
:03:29. > :03:37.any country does. These are murderers. Were you taught about the
:03:38. > :03:41.Geneva conventions? Yes, sir. In 1971, a soldier goes before a jury
:03:42. > :03:46.and said he couldn't remember a single army class on the Geneva
:03:47. > :03:53.convention. His name was rusty Kali. The one man who was found guilty of
:03:54. > :04:01.the My Lai massacre. I would say he has a very short memory. I will not
:04:02. > :04:10.say a lot of emphasis went on those classes. Anyone who went through
:04:11. > :04:16.basic training, just had some instructions. Code of conduct,
:04:17. > :04:23.Geneva conventions and treatment of... And it know what it was
:04:24. > :04:28.called. Treatment of prisoners. But standards were set. But I won't say
:04:29. > :04:35.they emphasised them a lot or really delved into it. It was more or less,
:04:36. > :04:44.you know, you had to go to this class. It wasn't, you know... It
:04:45. > :04:52.wasn't a lot of emphasis is being put on it. Hugh Thompson, March 16,
:04:53. > :04:57.1960 eight, 36 years have gone past. How clear in your mind are the
:04:58. > :05:06.memories of that day? Certain things to clear. Other things not clear.
:05:07. > :05:12.What is clear? When you shut your eyes, what do you see? A lot of pain
:05:13. > :05:22.and suffering by a lot of people. I remember the first girl getting
:05:23. > :05:27.killed. How was it she killed? Medina walked up and blew her away.
:05:28. > :05:33.This is one of the commanding officers on the ground? Commanding
:05:34. > :05:41.officer. He shot her at point-blank range? You saw it in front of your
:05:42. > :05:46.eyes? Yes. We were just kind of in shock because by that time, we had
:05:47. > :05:50.already questioned what was going on or what we have seen happen or seen
:05:51. > :05:55.the aftermath of what had actually happened. But when you landed your
:05:56. > :06:03.helicopter, it started all over again or were still going on? Yes.
:06:04. > :06:10.On two different occasions, and then we asked the help and I got a girl
:06:11. > :06:16.killed and then we asked the help again and we got a bunch of people
:06:17. > :06:31.killed so it was kind of obvious that asking when getting a mission a
:06:32. > :06:35.-- accomplished like I thought it had been... So these people shot
:06:36. > :06:41.right in front of your eyes and at some point you said enough and you
:06:42. > :06:51.asked your men to turn your their guns on the American soldiers that
:06:52. > :06:56.were doing this. Yes, sir. We had tried to... I wouldn't say be nice
:06:57. > :07:04.and friendly but I had asked and we just kind of light append animal in
:07:05. > :07:09.a cage, I guess. The only way I can think of to get it to stop. If
:07:10. > :07:14.that's what it would take. That's what we would have to do. Were you
:07:15. > :07:28.prepared to open fire on fellow American soldiers? Killam -- yes. I
:07:29. > :07:33.thank God to this date and a lot of days in between that everybody
:07:34. > :07:38.played it cool and nobody started shooting because I would really hate
:07:39. > :07:44.to have that on my conscience. But it was something we didn't volunteer
:07:45. > :07:52.to do. It was an only way out. I felt like we had to take it. You
:07:53. > :07:55.said in one of the reports that a lot of the girls didn't scream too
:07:56. > :08:03.much because they had already had their tongues cut out. A bayonet can
:08:04. > :08:13.kill two real quick if they up pregnant. This is beast yellow tea
:08:14. > :08:20.on an unbelievable scale, isn't it? -- -- bestiality. One who took
:08:21. > :08:34.around right through the brain. There was a lot of evil. How do you
:08:35. > :08:43.carry around the memory of that for 36 years? Went for a long time just,
:08:44. > :08:50.didn't say anything. And most of the time I'm thinking about it now, I'm
:08:51. > :08:55.talking to a class of students and if I can reach one person in that
:08:56. > :09:04.class and make them think to do the right thing, it will be worth it. Do
:09:05. > :09:10.you have any explanation for why presumably previously normal people
:09:11. > :09:19.could have butchered their way through over 500 unarmed civilians
:09:20. > :09:24.on that day? I blame the number one cause, bad leadership. Negative
:09:25. > :09:31.leadership, bad leadership. That these people killed with their
:09:32. > :09:40.hands, didn't they? They raked in a murdered. How do you explain
:09:41. > :09:57.soldiers doing that? The leadership that allows them to do it, negative
:09:58. > :10:03.peer pressure, prejudiced... Cf. -- fear. Not everybody on the ground
:10:04. > :10:09.that they took part in it. We put about 190 people on the ground. Only
:10:10. > :10:17.somewhere between 13 or 18 of them actually took part in what was going
:10:18. > :10:22.on. The others didn't do anything to stop it, just kind of turned the
:10:23. > :10:37.other way. You knew what was going on. You could follow whether squads
:10:38. > :10:42.went -- where the. When you got it to stop, when he threatened your
:10:43. > :10:47.fellow US soldiers and you got it to stop, he called in assistance, you
:10:48. > :10:52.called into gunship, you managed to get some children out and get some
:10:53. > :11:00.survivors out. Civilians, they were children with them. Men, women. I
:11:01. > :11:12.remember the one little girl. She was hanging onto her mother 's knee.
:11:13. > :11:22.No, she was probably for six. --4 or six. I could only see three. When
:11:23. > :11:28.they started coming out, reality started coming in. What in the world
:11:29. > :11:33.are going to do with these people? I can't leave them here. They are
:11:34. > :11:36.going to die. I can't get them out of there, I don't have the
:11:37. > :11:44.capability. That's when I called a friend of mine in and I said, hey,
:11:45. > :11:47.do me a favour and get them out of the area. You got them out and then
:11:48. > :11:58.flew back to headquarters. What did you do then? Was very mad. You are
:11:59. > :12:12.crying, won't you? Yeah. Screaming. And people who outranked me, just
:12:13. > :12:19.lost it. You can't make me fly. To show that you are a pilot, you had a
:12:20. > :12:24.set of wings. You wanted to leave. I said I would rip my wings off
:12:25. > :12:29.because they didn't want to take part in this. There was an
:12:30. > :12:32.investigation. I think I thought something had been done. But it was
:12:33. > :12:36.a whitewash because the official Army report, the first Army report
:12:37. > :12:43.that claimed avec -- great victory and said 128 enemies dead and only
:12:44. > :12:51.one American casualties. But they knew better because they had your
:12:52. > :13:05.evidence. Yes. I cannot remember... Everyone lined, did -- didn't they?
:13:06. > :13:11.-- light. -- lied. There was a report that 20 civilians had been
:13:12. > :13:16.killed inadvertently. That was a straight lie, wasn't it? And Captain
:13:17. > :13:23.Medina light, as well. And admitted later in the end that he had lied.
:13:24. > :13:32.He was the one seen shooting a girl. His scenario when he was on his
:13:33. > :13:39.court martial, they believed his scenario rather than mine, I guess.
:13:40. > :13:45.You stayed 13 years in the service after that. It was in the same,
:13:46. > :13:55.though, was it? As fast as it came up after the court marshalling died
:13:56. > :14:03.down. That you ostracised. When it first broke and people didn't know
:14:04. > :14:08.the facts, they forgot all about it very soon after it happened. But
:14:09. > :14:11.personally, you paid a heavy price in terms of depression, over the
:14:12. > :14:17.years. A lot of nightmares that you went through. Four marriages. There
:14:18. > :14:31.has been multiple marriages. It's been hard for you to carry
:14:32. > :14:40.around? No, life goes on. Can you ever forgive the people who did
:14:41. > :14:48.that? Note. -- no. Nope, I can't. I don't think I am man enough to. I
:14:49. > :14:55.know the pain and suffering that was inflicted for no reason, no reason
:14:56. > :15:04.whatsoever. There was no threat. You know, there was no enemy. They might
:15:05. > :15:11.have grown up to be enemy, but that's not what a soldier does in
:15:12. > :15:15.any country. It's just not. And when you think of those who walked away
:15:16. > :15:22.from it, got on with their lives, had children, set up businesses.
:15:23. > :15:30.They've got to live with themselves. I imagine some of them don't have an
:15:31. > :15:38.easy time. I'm OK with what I did. I just, you know, know the unnecessary
:15:39. > :15:49.pain and suffering and know how fragile human life is. In 1969,
:15:50. > :15:53.Rusty, the officer on the ground who was eventually held responsible, was
:15:54. > :15:56.flown back for an identification parade. You were asked to identify
:15:57. > :16:20.him. What went through your mind? Well, I knew I'd seen him and I
:16:21. > :16:28.couldn't remember whether it was at the ditch or the bunker. I knew he
:16:29. > :16:38.was one of them. I blocked a lot of that out of my mind. I think it is
:16:39. > :16:44.God's way of maintaining sanity. Only 25 officers and enlisted men
:16:45. > :16:50.were prosecuted. Only a handful of them came to trial. Only one man was
:16:51. > :16:55.found guilty and he served four and a half months behind bars. I think
:16:56. > :16:59.three days. Three days? And a little bit of house arrest. Yes, he had
:17:00. > :17:08.house arrest with conjugal visits. That's a rough life. This was a
:17:09. > :17:13.farce. Army justice was a farce. The Army justice system is a good system
:17:14. > :17:20.but I do believe it let us down. I think it let the Army and the United
:17:21. > :17:30.States down. It let you down as well, didn't it? Yeah, mm-hm. Not
:17:31. > :17:33.many people said thank you, did they? Nobody said thank you. You
:17:34. > :17:37.were intimidated, dead animals left on your porch, one of the
:17:38. > :17:44.Congressmen suggested you should be put behind bars. Mm-hm. So you
:17:45. > :17:51.didn't get much banks from a grateful nation. I didn't get any.
:17:52. > :17:59.But it's not the nation's fault. But you stop the killing and Rusty
:18:00. > :18:05.Calley and the then governor of Georgia was rooting for him, radio
:18:06. > :18:18.stations were proclaiming him as a hero and due to stop the killing had
:18:19. > :18:21.been ostracised. Yeah, I had a hard time going into Georgia because
:18:22. > :18:28.that's where Calley was court marshalled and I think he is
:18:29. > :18:33.originally from Florida and iron a Georgian native. And I am hearing my
:18:34. > :18:39.governor on the radio saying, leave your lights on today to show support
:18:40. > :18:49.for Lieutenant-governor on. I thought, what is this world coming
:18:50. > :18:52.to? -- Lieutenant Calley. But people didn't have the fax. You believed
:18:53. > :18:58.the fax a high-ranking congressmen says, it should be true. But low
:18:59. > :19:03.ranking Congressmen were standing off to the side and asked one
:19:04. > :19:09.another, was here in the same room I was in? Because they heard that I
:19:10. > :19:13.said there was a massacre and there was nothing here to indicate there
:19:14. > :19:21.was any wrongdoing. I couldn't say anything because believe me I was
:19:22. > :19:28.scared and I thought I was going to go to jail. So I wasn't talking to
:19:29. > :19:35.anybody. Hugh Thompson, he went back to My Lai. He went back on the 30th
:19:36. > :19:41.anniversary. There was no official representative from the American
:19:42. > :19:44.government. Not one. I guess I would be the only representative of the
:19:45. > :19:48.American government there. You met one of the women who survived,
:19:49. > :20:00.several people who survived. What did they say to you? Thanked me. One
:20:01. > :20:06.of them came from out of nowhere, we didn't know she was there. An
:20:07. > :20:13.interpreter brought her up. She wanted to meet Mr Thomson. Everyone
:20:14. > :20:22.was kind of shocked. Mr Wallace said, here is Mr Thomson. She wanted
:20:23. > :20:26.to know why I was very upset. I couldn't answer, sorry I couldn't
:20:27. > :20:38.help. I had always wondered in my mind... Did somebody there know that
:20:39. > :20:45.not all Americans were crazy and went mad that day? I wonder if
:20:46. > :20:50.somebody was trying to help. And I was real happy when she knew we
:20:51. > :20:57.tried to help. And she thanked me and I told her how -- I was sorry I
:20:58. > :21:00.couldn't help that they and then going through the interpreter was
:21:01. > :21:08.really difficult because they only say like half a sentence at a time.
:21:09. > :21:17.She asked, why didn't the people that had done the killing comeback
:21:18. > :21:22.with us? And I lost it. I thought, how do you answer this? I was
:21:23. > :21:29.getting ready to and then she finished the sentence and said, so
:21:30. > :21:36.we could forgive them. Oh my God... It was over with for me right then
:21:37. > :21:45.because it just tore me up. These people. Not many people have that
:21:46. > :21:50.much forgiveness in their hearts and I'm not man enough to forgive the
:21:51. > :21:57.people who did it. I can't do it. But you lecture, you've lectured in
:21:58. > :22:04.various places. I call it talking. I don't lecture. You've counselled. I
:22:05. > :22:11.still work with veterans every day. Trying to help them. And what do you
:22:12. > :22:18.tell them about My Lai? I don't tell them anything. Now some of the ones
:22:19. > :22:27.know about it, well, all of them do I guess. I have never talked at a
:22:28. > :22:42.military or a veterans function where anybody had agreed with me.
:22:43. > :22:48.You know... I'm not... I don't cut down the brigade or soldier. I think
:22:49. > :22:53.a soldier in the Army or navy or Marine Corps are very vulnerable
:22:54. > :23:00.profession. -- honourable. These were not soldiers, these were
:23:01. > :23:08.hoodlums and terrorists, the skies like soldiers. No soldier is taught
:23:09. > :23:12.to do that. -- disguised. If he does something like that he's no longer a
:23:13. > :23:16.soldier, he is not living by the creed of a soldier. I think it's
:23:17. > :23:20.time to remind people of that, given what's been going on in Iraq. I
:23:21. > :23:26.think very obviously it's time to remind the game. Hugh Thompson, it's
:23:27. > :23:27.been good having you on the programme. Thank you. Thank you very
:23:28. > :23:33.much. I appreciate it.