:00:00. > :00:14.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:15. > :00:23.The and apartheid in the same sentence and you are stepping into a
:00:24. > :00:26.political minefield -- put the words Israel and apartheid in the same
:00:27. > :00:29.sentence. Write a UN report and accused Israel of systematically
:00:30. > :00:34.implementing apartheid policies, well, you can be sure that will be a
:00:35. > :00:38.diplomatic explosion. My guest today, Rima Khalaf, did just that
:00:39. > :00:43.and properly resign from her UN post when the Secretary General refused
:00:44. > :00:52.to accept her work. Her motives have been widely questioned. So let's ask
:00:53. > :01:10.are, what were they? -- let's ask her.
:01:11. > :01:25.Pleasure to be here. Now that the dust has settled for a few weeks on
:01:26. > :01:29.this episode of you, the report you commissioned on Israel and
:01:30. > :01:32.apartheid, you have had some time to reflect on it all. Do you have
:01:33. > :01:38.regrets about the way you handled it? No, actually, not at all. First
:01:39. > :01:42.let me explain that I did not commission the report, because I
:01:43. > :01:47.wanted to commission a report. ESCWA, or United Nations Economic
:01:48. > :01:50.and Social Commission for Western Asia, is an intergovernmental body.
:01:51. > :01:56.We and intergovernmental agency. And we just implement what a member
:01:57. > :02:00.state ask us to do, member states, which are the 18 Arab member states
:02:01. > :02:04.of ESCWA, they requested us to commission a report to see whether
:02:05. > :02:10.Israel is actually imposing and apartheid regime on the Palestinian
:02:11. > :02:16.people. In way of background, Israel has pursued segregation and racial
:02:17. > :02:19.discrimination policies. In that, this is not disputable, because even
:02:20. > :02:24.Israel doesn't deny the policies that it has implemented in the West
:02:25. > :02:28.Bank on the occupied Palestinian people, and some of the policies in
:02:29. > :02:33.Israel itself. I mean, in the West Bank, you have a dual legal system,
:02:34. > :02:37.one that applies to Jewish settlers and one that applies to the
:02:38. > :02:40.Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories. Yes, OK, but
:02:41. > :02:47.to use the word apartheid, that rings a whole heap of emotional
:02:48. > :02:52.issues, connected, of course, to the regime established in South Africa
:02:53. > :02:57.by whites, based upon a racial premise. Now, did not strike you
:02:58. > :03:00.that, as you say, the 18 nations who wanted you to write this report, and
:03:01. > :03:07.who said we want YouTube focus on the apartheid analogy, these were
:03:08. > :03:14.doyens of human rights standards, like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria,
:03:15. > :03:18.Iraq. Bahrain. Did not strike you that there might be something
:03:19. > :03:23.misguided about this entire enterprise? Well, the countries that
:03:24. > :03:28.you named did not write the report. No, they asked you. As you have just
:03:29. > :03:32.said to me, they asked you to do it. They asked us to check whether this
:03:33. > :03:35.is the case or not. Did you think for one second they didn't already
:03:36. > :03:40.believe they knew the answer? No, no. Because it was a debate among
:03:41. > :03:44.member states. Some did believe that and some didn't. So they said we
:03:45. > :03:49.wanted ESCWA to commission a report. Now, regardless of the motives, our
:03:50. > :03:54.duty as a UN agency was to look for the best experts in the field.
:03:55. > :04:00.Experts who are into international law and human rights law, and who
:04:01. > :04:03.also know the region. So from that point on, neither the member states
:04:04. > :04:08.nor ESCWA had anything to do with findings of the report. Related to
:04:09. > :04:11.the experts. So you felt the best expert to lead the writing of this
:04:12. > :04:21.report was the American legal scholar Richard Falk? He is, as you
:04:22. > :04:26.know, an expert in international law and human rights law. I do know him,
:04:27. > :04:30.because he has been on HARDtalk and I know his record. And I know the
:04:31. > :04:35.kinds of things he has written which include commentary on, quote,
:04:36. > :04:38.Israel's genocidal tendencies. Now, let's look at the substance that
:04:39. > :04:45.Richard wrote. I mean, he didn't invent laws and say the law in
:04:46. > :04:52.Israel is so-and-so. These are the laws in Israel. When Richard Falk
:04:53. > :04:57.said that there is a UN legal system applied in -- dual legal system
:04:58. > :05:00.applied in the West Bank, there is a dual legal system. So instead of
:05:01. > :05:03.attacking Richard Falk, who is, in my opinion, a very respected
:05:04. > :05:07.international jurist, let's look at the substance. If you disagree with
:05:08. > :05:11.anything the report, bring it up. Forgive me, you said earlier, he
:05:12. > :05:14.said nobody in the process of commissioning this report, nobody
:05:15. > :05:18.was prejudging the issue. You chose as your lead author a man who is
:05:19. > :05:25.highly controversial, because of the things he has said about Israel in
:05:26. > :05:29.the past, including, and I'm quoting Richard Falk directly, Israel is
:05:30. > :05:34.slouching towards a Palestinian Holocaust. Those are his words. You
:05:35. > :05:40.chose him. You chose him to be the author. It was clear what was in
:05:41. > :05:44.your mind. Before I chose him, members of the human rights Council
:05:45. > :05:49.chose him as a special raconteur, so he has the respect of many. I
:05:50. > :05:53.understand, that meant the state like the US do not like Richard
:05:54. > :05:56.Falk. But what I am saying is let's stop focusing on the messenger,
:05:57. > :06:00.let's focus on the message. We are saying we have a system of
:06:01. > :06:05.apartheid. At least, at minimum, we have is system of segregation and
:06:06. > :06:09.discrimination. We should focus on this. We cannot live with such a
:06:10. > :06:15.system on the 21st century. And I still... By the way, before I said
:06:16. > :06:19.that I am not willing to pull the report of our website, I really
:06:20. > :06:23.asked our colleagues, show me one floor, one fault, and I am willing
:06:24. > :06:27.to take it off our website. But so far, I have read so many
:06:28. > :06:34.commentators on the report, not one. The only commentary I read or heard
:06:35. > :06:40.was defamation focusing on Richard, focusing on me, focusing on why the
:06:41. > :06:45.report... Tell me what is wrong with the report. Well, I want to focus on
:06:46. > :06:50.the substance of the report, and on this insistence that there is, in
:06:51. > :06:55.legal, substantial terms, a direct comparison between Israel and the
:06:56. > :07:00.established norms of what represents apartheid. And I am struggling. I
:07:01. > :07:04.mean, for example, in Israel, I see no race classification act, I see no
:07:05. > :07:10.ban on mixed marriages, I see no group areas act, no pass laws, these
:07:11. > :07:15.are all fundamental pillars of South Africa's implementation of
:07:16. > :07:19.apartheid. The reference, in order to determine whether you have an
:07:20. > :07:24.apartheid regime or not, you have to go to the apartheid convention.
:07:25. > :07:27.Anti-apartheid convention has a very clear definition of what will be
:07:28. > :07:31.considered apartheid. Basically they should be three elements. The first
:07:32. > :07:36.element, there should be inhumane acts that are committed against a
:07:37. > :07:44.racial group. In this case, we have, let's say, the two category citizens
:07:45. > :07:47.in Israel, the Jewish citizens and the non-Jewish citizens. Other acts
:07:48. > :07:52.that are committed against the non-Jewish citizens? Per second,
:07:53. > :07:56.which is a very important condition, you need to show that those acts are
:07:57. > :08:03.committed within the context of an institutional regime of domination
:08:04. > :08:08.and oppression by one racial group over another. And third, you have to
:08:09. > :08:14.show that it is intended to maintain the regime. So what the report does,
:08:15. > :08:16.it looks at the act, and that it looks at the institutional
:08:17. > :08:20.structures, it looks at the laws, and it looks at the Basic Law, and
:08:21. > :08:25.it looks at how the non-Jewish citizens are treated. Let me quote
:08:26. > :08:31.you Richard Goldstone, if I may. He is one of South Africa's most
:08:32. > :08:35.respected senior thinkers, after he was asked to write a report of the
:08:36. > :08:39.war, which the Israeli government hated, by the way, but Richard
:08:40. > :08:43.Goldstone has reacted in this way to the comparison between what Israel
:08:44. > :08:47.does and apartheid. He says in Israel nothing comes close to the
:08:48. > :08:52.definition of apartheid under the 1998 Rome Statute. Inhumane acts
:08:53. > :08:55.committed in the context of an institutional regime of systematic
:08:56. > :08:59.oppression, that is the definition of apartheid. He said Israeli Arabs
:09:00. > :09:03.represent 20% of the population. They have the vote, they have
:09:04. > :09:06.political parties. One of them is on the Supreme Court. They occupy
:09:07. > :09:11.positions of acclaim across the country. This is Israel. Have you
:09:12. > :09:18.been to Israel? This is part of the story. Have you been to Israel? I am
:09:19. > :09:22.trying to remember. I have... I have been to Gaza, I have been to the
:09:23. > :09:26.West Bank. But that's the point, have you been to Israel? Occurs we
:09:27. > :09:30.are talking about Israel's treatment of his own population on its own
:09:31. > :09:34.sovereign territory. We can get to the occupied territories. Please
:09:35. > :09:38.allow me to comment on this. Now I understand what Goldstone is saying,
:09:39. > :09:45.and he is telling us only part of the truth. Goldstone did not tell us
:09:46. > :09:48.that in Israel there is a differentiation between nationality
:09:49. > :09:52.and citizenship. And this is very strange, by the way. In that you
:09:53. > :09:56.have to be due in order to be a national. And there are of rights
:09:57. > :10:00.that are associated with nationality. So you can be a
:10:01. > :10:04.citizen, but you cannot have those other rights. And this is extremely
:10:05. > :10:08.important. You cannot discriminate between your citizens. Excuse me,
:10:09. > :10:14.but one of your sponsor countries, that commissioned this report, is
:10:15. > :10:17.Saudi Arabia. Yes. It is not easy being a Christian in Saudi Arabia,
:10:18. > :10:22.is it? What kind of rights do you have that? Wait a minute. First I
:10:23. > :10:24.don't like the idea of jumping to compare with another country. When
:10:25. > :10:28.we talk about apartheid and racial discretion and segregation, we are
:10:29. > :10:32.talking about treating citizens within the same country. Now, Saudi
:10:33. > :10:38.Arabia may be treated citizens cruelly, with cruelty. It may be the
:10:39. > :10:42.case. But my point is a treat all its citizens the same. There are
:10:43. > :10:45.Christians who live in Saudi Arabia... But there is a difference
:10:46. > :10:49.in terms of the Basic Law. Whether legally... I'll tell you what. There
:10:50. > :10:54.are areas of Saudi Arabia, particularly around Makkah, which
:10:55. > :10:58.Christians are not allowed to enter. I understand this. They have their
:10:59. > :11:07.excuses. I don't like them, but they don't have any law that says, for
:11:08. > :11:11.example, in Jeddah a Muslim can own land, a Christian cannot own land.
:11:12. > :11:15.In Israel, I'm sure you know that 93% of the land is owned by the
:11:16. > :11:20.state, and land laws allow land agencies to develop and sell land to
:11:21. > :11:25.Jews only. So you talk about 20% of the population who are non-Jewish?
:11:26. > :11:29.Fine, but they are not allowed to buy land in Israel, except the lands
:11:30. > :11:35.that stayed with them after Israel was established. And many of the
:11:36. > :11:39.lands... Let's not get... You mentioned also political parties. Do
:11:40. > :11:42.you know that it is unlawful in Israel to establish a political
:11:43. > :11:48.party that questions the nature of the state as a Jewish state? So
:11:49. > :11:52.basically you are telling the non-Jewish citizens of Israel, you
:11:53. > :11:58.can vote, but once you elect did, you cannot question your subordinate
:11:59. > :12:04.status. OK, you can lobby for additional, better budgets, for
:12:05. > :12:08.better services, for better health and better education, but the Basic
:12:09. > :12:11.Law is the disk and it against you, and that establish inequality, are
:12:12. > :12:15.beyond your reach. Because if you do, you are illegal as a party. I
:12:16. > :12:20.just wonder whether you are completing different issues here.
:12:21. > :12:24.There is no doubt South Africa was a racist state, built on racist
:12:25. > :12:29.premises. Same with, of course, the Nazis. They were deeply racist in
:12:30. > :12:36.the way they viewed people and society. Yes. Now, in Israel, and
:12:37. > :12:42.this is a quote from a Palestinian expert on Israel and Palestine, from
:12:43. > :12:46.the Washington Institute, from Italy's policy, says accusing Israel
:12:47. > :12:49.of being an apartheid state doesn't serve the Palestinian cause. Rather
:12:50. > :12:53.it diverts attention from the fact that on the ground Israel is an
:12:54. > :12:59.occupation state, and the conflict is on about racial segregation so
:13:00. > :13:03.much as military occupation. This is, I think Mahmood from the court
:13:04. > :13:07.that you just said was talking about the situation in the West Bank. We
:13:08. > :13:10.have two problems in the West Bank. The first of the problem of the
:13:11. > :13:14.military occupation which has lasted for half a century. And the second,
:13:15. > :13:17.because this is not like the US occupation of Iraq, where you sent
:13:18. > :13:21.your army, this is a case where Israel sent its population to settle
:13:22. > :13:24.in the West Bank, to colonise the West Bank. So you ended up with an
:13:25. > :13:29.occupied territory with two populations. The apartheid problem
:13:30. > :13:32.emerges not from occupation but from the fact that you had two
:13:33. > :13:36.populations on the same land, and you have different laws applying to
:13:37. > :13:40.the two populations. So you have one set of laws that applies to the
:13:41. > :13:43.Jewish settlers, and another set of laws that applies to the
:13:44. > :13:46.Palestinians. If we didn't have this, then it would have been just a
:13:47. > :13:52.military occupation, that everybody has been hoping will end.
:13:53. > :13:59.The Israelis say that so many of the conditions put upon the Palestinians
:14:00. > :14:03.are connected to security, it is security they say that led them to
:14:04. > :14:06.build the barrier fence or wall whatever you choose to call it, it
:14:07. > :14:10.is security that leads them to have wrote specifically for Jewish
:14:11. > :14:15.settlers to get them safely to their settlements. Now, that is not about
:14:16. > :14:21.a racial theory, that is about the practicalities of security. Mention
:14:22. > :14:26.South Africa, is that exactly the same arguments that were used by the
:14:27. > :14:32.South Africans. We are in a very difficult neighbourhood, except the
:14:33. > :14:35.south African call them revolutionaries, they attack us,
:14:36. > :14:39.they are barbaric and because of security we have to take such
:14:40. > :14:45.measures, Israel is using the exact same arguments and no, security
:14:46. > :14:50.doesn't mean, it doesn't this is as a -- it doesn't necessitate that you
:14:51. > :14:54.treat a Jewish child and the Palestinian child differently, it
:14:55. > :14:57.doesn't mean you have different judicial procedures or sentencing
:14:58. > :15:01.when they commit a crime, if two children commit a crime regardless
:15:02. > :15:07.of their religion they should be treated the same. When the Secretary
:15:08. > :15:12.General saw your report he was appalled, so much so he demanded you
:15:13. > :15:16.withdraw the report, and when you refused, you then said that you
:15:17. > :15:22.would resign but the bottom line is he and his staff said that you had
:15:23. > :15:26.ignored key UN protocols. He said... When you put this report online. It
:15:27. > :15:32.should be enlightening that it isn't the of content, he wasn't appalled
:15:33. > :15:36.at the content. Well, excuse the UN spokesman, I have it in front of
:15:37. > :15:43.me," this report does not reflect the views of the Secretary General."
:15:44. > :15:46.Of course. Every report that we submit, nothing represents the views
:15:47. > :15:50.of the United Nations or the Secretary General that particularly
:15:51. > :15:53.the United Nations, we are talking about member states and we as a
:15:54. > :15:57.secretariat submit reports and they take resolutions and they may be
:15:58. > :16:01.very different from the material that we submitted. The position of
:16:02. > :16:05.the UN is taken over by its member states, not by the Secretary at. We
:16:06. > :16:09.submit reports to the Security Council, they can adopt it or
:16:10. > :16:14.completely ignore it and with a bit reports to be assembly and it is up
:16:15. > :16:18.to them to take policies. You wrote a resignation letter to him in which
:16:19. > :16:21.you said you have instructed me to withdraw not any fault but you found
:16:22. > :16:25.in a report, because you disagreed with the content but due to
:16:26. > :16:31.political pressure by member state who gravely violate the rights of
:16:32. > :16:34.the people in the region. Obviously you by talking primarily about
:16:35. > :16:38.Israel but I assume you are talking about the United States as well. Use
:16:39. > :16:45.it to be accusing the new UN Secretary General of having no moral
:16:46. > :16:51.backbone, of being a moral coward. I am accusing member state of
:16:52. > :16:55.interfering in the work of the secretary. I know you are accusing
:16:56. > :16:58.them of that but you are also saying that Mr Secretary General you have
:16:59. > :17:03.been bullied, you have been weak, you have the spine of a jellyfish. I
:17:04. > :17:07.didn't say that. Actually, I thought this in my resignation, I said I
:17:08. > :17:11.understand that you have little choice and I understand the
:17:12. > :17:15.difficult position you find yourself in. At the recent the Secretary
:17:16. > :17:18.General finds himself in a very difficult position is because member
:17:19. > :17:23.states are trying to impose on him what needs to be said and what needs
:17:24. > :17:27.to be done. For the Secretary General, if I was the Secretary
:17:28. > :17:32.General, if I have... I'm sorry but you are really not facing up to my
:17:33. > :17:36.question- 80 or did he not bow down in the face of bullying, as you
:17:37. > :17:44.would see at, from Israel and the United States? OK, whatever toys he
:17:45. > :17:49.made, it was very difficult. -- choice. Let me ask you for a direct
:17:50. > :17:54.answer to the question. I will answer you how... I will explain
:17:55. > :17:57.what the situation that they found the sovereign, a member state is
:17:58. > :18:02.breathing down your neck and telling you take this report of the website.
:18:03. > :18:06.And you have the head of the agency telling you that unless you give me
:18:07. > :18:10.a convincing reason or you Shami, I will not take it off my website.
:18:11. > :18:15.What are the choices? If the Secretary General resists pressure
:18:16. > :18:19.from member states, actually, the UN may lose its existence because those
:18:20. > :18:23.member states will give up the UN. But if the Secretary General... Hang
:18:24. > :18:27.on, USA and the United States of Donald Trump was threatening the UN
:18:28. > :18:32.Secretary General to withdraw the billions in funding in the US is to
:18:33. > :18:35.the UN? Actually, they started threatening this way before we issue
:18:36. > :18:41.the report. They started their threats after the passing of the
:18:42. > :18:44.settlement Security Council resolution in December 2016 and
:18:45. > :18:48.Congress said we are going to be fun this agency unless they thought of I
:18:49. > :18:53.don't know what the word they used takeback or cancel that resolution.
:18:54. > :18:58.It seems to be it is very convenient for you to say I wrote a great
:18:59. > :19:02.report but it was, it was bullying and it was the intimidation of
:19:03. > :19:05.Israel and the United States that led to it being rejected by the UN
:19:06. > :19:09.Secretary General but the truth surely is somewhat different, the
:19:10. > :19:13.truth is that if one takes the logic of your report to its final
:19:14. > :19:20.conclusion, you are saying that Israel is a racist state. I am.
:19:21. > :19:24.Israel is renewing that old canard about Zionism being racist. If
:19:25. > :19:28.that's what you really believe? Wait a minute. I'm talking about specific
:19:29. > :19:35.laws, policies and practices. That pursue racial segregation. You
:19:36. > :19:39.believe Israel is a racist state? I do believe that Israel discriminate
:19:40. > :19:45.against its non-Jewish citizens. Are you questioning is Rob's right to
:19:46. > :19:49.exist? What is this... Unless you are telling me that the Israel to
:19:50. > :19:51.exist it has the practice racial discrimination and it has two
:19:52. > :19:56.oppress all of the non-Jewish citizens and the non- Jewish people
:19:57. > :19:59.in the occupied Territories that I can't see... You know the history
:20:00. > :20:06.better than I, you know Israel was set up in 1948 as a state for the
:20:07. > :20:11.dues. -- Jew. After all the history they went through, they were given a
:20:12. > :20:15.homeland. I tell you what, I suggest you and probably the audience go
:20:16. > :20:20.back to the UN resolution that established Israel, the partition
:20:21. > :20:25.resolution, and it was very clear that it is a Jewish state and the
:20:26. > :20:29.reason Arab state but neither of the two states, neither the Jewish or
:20:30. > :20:36.the Arab state can have laws that discriminate between people based on
:20:37. > :20:41.religion, sex, or race. So that was, that was the condition for
:20:42. > :20:43.establishing the state. Actually the declaration of Independence for
:20:44. > :20:48.Israel does not discriminate based on any of these factors. Then later
:20:49. > :20:53.on, laws that discriminate based on religion and ethnic origin came into
:20:54. > :20:58.the legal stature of Israel. What I'm saying is if we want peace the
:20:59. > :21:03.region, we really need to address those laws, particularly now. We
:21:04. > :21:07.were talking about recognising Israel as a Jewish state, my
:21:08. > :21:12.references the Prime Minister of Israel, the Prime Minister of Israel
:21:13. > :21:16.said what you mean by the Israel State, he said state for the Jewish
:21:17. > :21:20.people and the Jewish people only. So you have... This is another
:21:21. > :21:23.reference point for you, a written statement from the European
:21:24. > :21:26.Parliament working group on anti-Semitism that denying the
:21:27. > :21:31.Jewish people they write to self determination, i.e. By claiming that
:21:32. > :21:36.the existence of the state of Israel is a racist endeavour... I didn't
:21:37. > :21:41.say that. That is in their terms of form of anti-Semitism. Buk, and I
:21:42. > :21:47.know there are lots of flaws that are criticising Israel, and they
:21:48. > :21:52.will lead to defamation and to labelling you as an anti-Semite
:21:53. > :21:57.but... Would you accept among the member states, those 18 Arab member
:21:58. > :22:01.nations, there are many people who do not accept the legitimacy of
:22:02. > :22:06.Israel and there are many who bring anti-Semitism to the table when they
:22:07. > :22:10.are discussing issues like this very one? I think we should differentiate
:22:11. > :22:17.between the and a regime. State exist, a regime may not be
:22:18. > :22:24.legitimate but not a state. I mean, when South Africa, when the
:22:25. > :22:28.apartheid regime in South Africa was dismantled, South Africa existed but
:22:29. > :22:32.in a different regime. All I'm saying is it is not against Israel,
:22:33. > :22:36.it's against this type of regime that discriminates against people
:22:37. > :22:41.and I think it is serious issue. We have to end but a final point and
:22:42. > :22:45.again, it seems to be it raises questions about the consistency of
:22:46. > :22:48.your position, you are a senior member in the Jordanian government
:22:49. > :22:52.to make peace with Israel and then built a relationship with Israel,
:22:53. > :22:57.even in the last few months and weeks, we have seen closer ties
:22:58. > :23:01.being forged, a purchase agreement with $10 billion between the
:23:02. > :23:05.Jordanian government and the Israeli Cabinet into a Netanyahu, more
:23:06. > :23:09.Jordanian workers being allowed to cross into the Jordan river and work
:23:10. > :23:15.in Israel in hotels around the dead Sea. The ties are getting tighter
:23:16. > :23:18.and you, as a Jordanian, presumably are saying to your own government
:23:19. > :23:24.which you are a loyal servant of this is unacceptable, we have to cut
:23:25. > :23:28.all ties. First... With this racist apartheid state. Are you saying
:23:29. > :23:32.that? I think as a result of issuing this report, member state should
:23:33. > :23:37.show the responsibility, they should go to a sorry Katie of the determine
:23:38. > :23:43.whether the findings are correct or not. If an authoritative by the ICC
:23:44. > :23:46.or the General Assembly decide this is an apartheid state than member
:23:47. > :23:49.states have a responsibility not to aid or assist in apartheid state and
:23:50. > :23:54.continue and dominating other people. You are saying your own
:23:55. > :23:59.government has it wrong? Your own government and King have a totally
:24:00. > :24:03.misguided policy to Israel, is that what you are saying? I'm saying the
:24:04. > :24:06.next step, if it proves that we go to an authoritative and they
:24:07. > :24:09.determined that Israel is an apartheid state, then yes, my
:24:10. > :24:14.government should not deal with them. Rima Khalaf, we have to end
:24:15. > :24:20.there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.