:00:00. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. In just a few days, Pope
:00:21. > :00:26.Francis will fly to Egypt to offer his personal support to Egypt's
:00:27. > :00:31.Coptic Christians. He will find a community filled with apprehension,
:00:32. > :00:35.targeted by jihadist extremists, and subject to persistent discrimination
:00:36. > :00:41.and sectarian violence. Elsewhere in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq,
:00:42. > :00:48.the plight of Christians is even worse. My guest today is the General
:00:49. > :00:52.Bishop of the cup that church in the UK, Bishop Angaelos. Do Christians
:00:53. > :01:20.have any future at all in the Middle East? -- one.
:01:21. > :01:26.Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk Do you think there is something
:01:27. > :01:32.substantively different about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic
:01:33. > :01:37.Christians in Egypt to date? Because they have faced threats for many
:01:38. > :01:41.years. Yes. We have faced threats for centuries, particularly over the
:01:42. > :01:46.past decades, but to have suicide bombers in churches is a shift, and
:01:47. > :01:50.it looks like the mirroring of attacks in other parts of the world.
:01:51. > :01:53.And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian community so much
:01:54. > :01:58.generally, Christians and Muslims. We have not seen this level of
:01:59. > :02:03.aggression and violence. We have had attacks, which have been equally
:02:04. > :02:08.painful, but this does mark a very new chapter. And does that mean,
:02:09. > :02:11.since we saw the suicide bomber tax onto churches, a cathedral in
:02:12. > :02:14.Alexandra, and the Church in the Tanta region, does that mean that
:02:15. > :02:20.Christian communities have to think more carefully than they have before
:02:21. > :02:24.about self protection? Of course. We saw heightened security around
:02:25. > :02:34.churches in the lead up to it celebrations. The community is
:02:35. > :02:38.resilient. It is strong. It is very faithful and forgiving. -- Easter
:02:39. > :02:42.celebrations. But it has to be more careful. I have said in the past
:02:43. > :02:46.week that what is ironic is that these churches were bombed and
:02:47. > :02:49.attacked when they were full. That was only two months after the
:02:50. > :02:54.bombing in Cairo. So it hasn't dissuaded people from going to
:02:55. > :02:59.church. You talk about resilience, and I appreciate that those churches
:03:00. > :03:03.are still being felt, but there are signs that the Egyptian Coptic are
:03:04. > :03:15.scared in a new way. I am thinking about what we have seen in northern
:03:16. > :03:18.Sinai. -- Copts are. People have been saying that they are going to
:03:19. > :03:22.come after Christians, that they will kill you. We saw some doubts,
:03:23. > :03:29.but we saw many fleeing. Leaving the committee altogether. Do you believe
:03:30. > :03:33.that is an inevitable response? -- leaving the community. At the time,
:03:34. > :03:37.and that was the correct response, because they had been undergoing a
:03:38. > :03:41.tax for weeks leading up to that. But at that point, they realise they
:03:42. > :03:46.had no more sustainable presents there. So they moved to surrounding
:03:47. > :03:51.dioceses, that absorb them. I don't think I would use the word fear. I
:03:52. > :03:54.don't think I have heard any of our church leadership or community use
:03:55. > :03:58.the word fear, but they are concerned. And they have every right
:03:59. > :04:01.to protect their families. And they did that in this instance by
:04:02. > :04:09.leaving. But they remain targeted, because they cannot all become
:04:10. > :04:14.displaced. And interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues, he
:04:15. > :04:19.said you can now consider yourselves to be living through a wave of
:04:20. > :04:24.persecution. Is this an era of outright and sustained persecution,
:04:25. > :04:28.in your view? I think we have lived a history of persecution throughout
:04:29. > :04:35.our presence in Egypt. And it has intensified at various times. In our
:04:36. > :04:39.contemporary history, ever since the presence of the former president,
:04:40. > :04:45.said that, when Islamist were given a greater range, and they started
:04:46. > :04:50.you divide up the committee now way. -- Saddat. Christians became more
:04:51. > :04:55.visible and a bigger target. It is a fault line, isn't it? I'm looking at
:04:56. > :05:07.the analysis of experts in England is in Egypt. He says the intent here
:05:08. > :05:14.is to make a separation between Christian and Muslims, and to start
:05:15. > :05:19.a outright division between the two. Can they succeed? -- Christians.
:05:20. > :05:25.They have not so far. Whether it was after the bombing in Cairo, or these
:05:26. > :05:29.bombings, Egypt is very different to the rest of the Middle East. There
:05:30. > :05:33.is not a tribal presence there. It is much more homogenous. In actual
:05:34. > :05:39.fact, what we see after every one of these attacks is a greater support
:05:40. > :05:43.from the greater Muslim community, because they see themselves in the
:05:44. > :05:46.community as targeted as well. So does not make us more marginalised.
:05:47. > :05:52.People have come out to support us. The outpouring of support and
:05:53. > :05:55.shocked that we have seen in the community, both in Egypt and
:05:56. > :06:02.globally, as a result, is a tell-tale sign. To that extent, you
:06:03. > :06:09.strike me as an optimist. You could do it around, and talk about how the
:06:10. > :06:13.state, represented by President al-Sisi and the machinery of the
:06:14. > :06:20.state, does still not take the basic structural measures to ensure that
:06:21. > :06:25.the long-term discrimination against Coptic Christians in Egypt is
:06:26. > :06:28.addressed. There is the short term, the three-month emergency, and the
:06:29. > :06:35.specific new law about church construction, but many Copts say
:06:36. > :06:39.what is taught in schools, what about the horrible extremism that
:06:40. > :06:45.comes from some mosques, why are these things not address? We have
:06:46. > :06:48.seen it addressed in the past few months. I figure will take a
:06:49. > :06:52.generation. This sort of thought process has infiltrated the
:06:53. > :06:56.educational system. The general society, too, so much that it needs
:06:57. > :07:07.to be replaced by something else. So the correctly have to change. -- the
:07:08. > :07:13.curricular Bell curricula. Christians it is he themselves as
:07:14. > :07:16.part of that, living alongside Muslims. I've seen that myself
:07:17. > :07:24.reporting to HARDtalk in Upper Egypt. -- reporting for. All the way
:07:25. > :07:30.down to south, you still find many communities where Christians do feel
:07:31. > :07:33.that their security is constantly under threat. And the government
:07:34. > :07:37.knows it but still does not seem to do much about it. That has been the
:07:38. > :07:43.weak point. At the national level, I think we have hearing very
:07:44. > :07:46.legitimate and sincere promises from the President and the government,
:07:47. > :07:50.from the national security services, but when one comes down to the local
:07:51. > :07:57.level, to the villages, to the districts, where there is a sense of
:07:58. > :08:00.impunity, because crimes go unreported, sometimes, because they
:08:01. > :08:04.realise that there is not there to be an investigation. There might be
:08:05. > :08:08.no reprise or conviction will stop so therefore, there is a ratcheting
:08:09. > :08:13.up, and intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more deadly
:08:14. > :08:16.everytime. Any questionnaires at local level, municipal level,
:08:17. > :08:20.regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians are in
:08:21. > :08:28.positions of real authority? Say in the judiciary or in government. You
:08:29. > :08:31.are a Copt with great knowledge of the country. Can you say your
:08:32. > :08:36.community is represented in the machinery of government and justice?
:08:37. > :08:41.Absolutely not. That has been the problem over the past decades. There
:08:42. > :08:44.is most definitely a glass ceiling will stop and it is not because
:08:45. > :08:48.there are not enough Christians or they are not intelligent or
:08:49. > :08:52.specialise enough, because what we see is the leading the public sector
:08:53. > :08:57.and go to the private sector, and very successful. And that in itself
:08:58. > :09:01.create a greater resentment, because they are being seen as successful.
:09:02. > :09:05.So think is part of the overall solution, in a sense of citizenship,
:09:06. > :09:10.there needs to be greater representation and the understanding
:09:11. > :09:14.that Christians can be productive, sincere, faithful members of a
:09:15. > :09:20.community, and the people who can work side by side with Muslims. But
:09:21. > :09:26.Bishop, is not one of the problem is that you and other senior leaders in
:09:27. > :09:32.the church, including the current Pope, but also Pope Shenouda, who
:09:33. > :09:36.you work for the past. You as a group at the top of the church has a
:09:37. > :09:44.year upon year have been in the pocket of Egypt's rulers. And I am
:09:45. > :09:53.thinking of Mubarek and now our city. You celebrated when al-Sisi
:09:54. > :10:01.came back to power. -- al-Sisi. You are Alleyne yourself with a leader
:10:02. > :10:06.who is authoritarian. I don't think so. We are self-funded and self
:10:07. > :10:10.defending. We have not seen any greater benefits by supporting
:10:11. > :10:13.anyone. If we look across the presidency in the past, we have been
:10:14. > :10:18.attacked equally throughout. And I think we have two change the
:10:19. > :10:22.paradigms of this conversation a little bit, because I think
:10:23. > :10:27.Christians in Egypt, as with anywhere, and the right to express
:10:28. > :10:30.their allegiances to whichever political leadership or party they
:10:31. > :10:36.see will hold their interests, without reprisal. And I think that
:10:37. > :10:40.is very important. Yes, but a lot of Copts in Egypt today, looking
:10:41. > :10:46.online, they are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem to
:10:47. > :10:55.be knee-jerk loyal to the president of the country, Mr al-Sisi. For
:10:56. > :11:00.example, one blogger who blogs about Coptic issues has actually
:11:01. > :11:04.questioned the current Pope's fidelity to the Coptic creed. He
:11:05. > :11:15.said the church shows very little love except to the regime, SL. He is
:11:16. > :11:19.very resentful. -- it self. I agree with this frustration, but I don't
:11:20. > :11:24.think it is about loyalty. It is about alternatives. -- itself.
:11:25. > :11:28.Suppose we don't support al-Sisi. What is the alternative? We saw in
:11:29. > :11:33.the past presidency our cathedral it for the first time in living history
:11:34. > :11:37.being attacked in the sight of security forces who were standing
:11:38. > :11:45.and looking on and doing nothing. So that was not a viable option. What
:11:46. > :11:54.we can also realises that you have two -- if you are looking on, and
:11:55. > :11:59.there is an alternative, you should do that. So the suggestion is that
:12:00. > :12:03.if you do not support authoritarians, you are defenceless.
:12:04. > :12:10.That Christians felt similar things in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and Bashar
:12:11. > :12:13.al-Assad's Syria. But look at what has happened to questions in those
:12:14. > :12:17.countries. Because when the dam breaks, and the authoritarian loses
:12:18. > :12:21.his grip, because of the collaboration, Christians are in
:12:22. > :12:27.even more danger, aren't they? Creatures are in danger anyway. Over
:12:28. > :12:32.the past decades, we have seen that. -- Christians. I don't think it is a
:12:33. > :12:41.blind allegiance. It is an informed choice. Because one look ats at the
:12:42. > :12:45.options. Or lack of choice? Exactly. On the 30th of September, when
:12:46. > :12:48.Egyptians came out into the streets, they were by no means in the
:12:49. > :12:52.Christians. There was a huge spectrum. Yet, when you see police
:12:53. > :12:57.officers killed, soldiers killed, nobody asked where they were on the
:12:58. > :12:59.30th. Nobody asked what the political support is. They realise
:13:00. > :13:03.that they are targeted because they are police officers and soldiers. So
:13:04. > :13:07.Christians are being targeted by this French, just because they are
:13:08. > :13:13.Christians. And I think no matter what ever the affiliation as, there
:13:14. > :13:22.will be targeted because of the intolerance because of this fringe
:13:23. > :13:28.element. -- by this fringe. I'm giving you a chance in his interview
:13:29. > :13:37.to speak out against al-Sisi. A lot of Coptic intellectuals came out and
:13:38. > :13:41.issued a statement, a combination of al-Sisi, and they said that despite
:13:42. > :13:46.corporation, ordinary Christian citizens, day by day, still suffer
:13:47. > :13:54.from discrimination. You have an opportunity, here, to save Mr
:13:55. > :14:00.al-Sisi, at your words about helping us are not backed by actions. And it
:14:01. > :14:04.is not good enough. We have said that. But it would be naive of any
:14:05. > :14:09.analyst to say that we do not meet demands and do not stand by our
:14:10. > :14:14.people. We have to benefit except the interests of our people, and we
:14:15. > :14:20.do make demands, whether it is for people who are attacked on a daily
:14:21. > :14:25.basis or others. It is important for me as a bishop that we make these
:14:26. > :14:28.demands, we have made and through to the government, through their
:14:29. > :14:34.dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear in making these claims.
:14:35. > :14:41.The background, it is striking to me that the Pope described the Arab
:14:42. > :14:45.Spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people across the region
:14:46. > :14:50.taking to the streets in support of Democratic change and reform, he
:14:51. > :14:56.described the Arab Spring as, quite, not a spring but a winter, plotted
:14:57. > :15:07.by malicious hands. Is that a place where Christians in the region want
:15:08. > :15:12.to be? Against that surge of popular support for change and an end to
:15:13. > :15:17.authoritarianism? No one is against reform, absolutely. I think we saw
:15:18. > :15:20.what was going to happen, we saw, knowing Egypt and knowing the
:15:21. > :15:25.political landscape, knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once
:15:26. > :15:29.this leader was gone, it would become a political vacuum. That
:15:30. > :15:33.vacuum would be filled by people who may not have the interests of the
:15:34. > :15:37.country at heart. We saw the greatest number of attacks in those
:15:38. > :15:43.two years than we had for the previous 20 years, because it was an
:15:44. > :15:47.anarchic state. As well because there was a sense of empowerment of
:15:48. > :15:50.those who were on the fringes. Those who didn't really want to think
:15:51. > :15:57.about anyone else. The thing about democracy is that it is a means to
:15:58. > :16:02.an end. I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is
:16:03. > :16:06.able to protect its smallest unit. Let me ask you about the visit of
:16:07. > :16:13.Pope Francis. We've been discussing how the local Coptic Church finesses
:16:14. > :16:17.its relationship to the state and power in a very troubled atmosphere
:16:18. > :16:25.in Egypt today. What do you want from Pope Francis? How robust do you
:16:26. > :16:31.want his message to the Egyptian government and people to be? I think
:16:32. > :16:37.on record, Pope Francis has been very robust in his message in
:16:38. > :16:40.support of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt, and indeed many
:16:41. > :16:44.persecuted people around the world. It is a Christian message of
:16:45. > :16:49.equality and sanctity of life and dignity of life. I think that is the
:16:50. > :16:52.message that people will get. He is primarily going to visit his own
:16:53. > :16:59.constituency, but also to support the Christians of Egypt, and to look
:17:00. > :17:04.into the Christian - Muslim dialogue on violent extremism. I think that
:17:05. > :17:07.voice going into that dialogue, that conversation is going to be
:17:08. > :17:11.important. It's not about conferences and dialogues any more,
:17:12. > :17:18.it is about taking ownership of the tax that are being used by the
:17:19. > :17:22.caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate Muslims -- texts. Muslims
:17:23. > :17:29.who could otherwise be very good Muslims. To use violence against
:17:30. > :17:33.peaceful, peace loving people. I have a Christian has broken... Do
:17:34. > :17:37.you think most Muslims are going to take lectures from leaders like Pope
:17:38. > :17:41.Francis? No. I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and
:17:42. > :17:48.speak to our Muslim friends in leadership to say, they need to take
:17:49. > :17:51.this ownership of there own texts. Some of them are doing it around the
:17:52. > :17:57.world. There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear
:17:58. > :18:03.that Egypt, the fate of Christians in Egypt could, in years to come,
:18:04. > :18:10.have horrible similarities to the fate of Christians in Iraq and
:18:11. > :18:15.Syria. In Iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80% of all Christians in the
:18:16. > :18:20.country either killed or have left. Inferior, the figures are getting
:18:21. > :18:23.close to that as. Christian communities are almost eliminated.
:18:24. > :18:27.Could that happen in Egypt? It is going to be more difficult. There is
:18:28. > :18:31.going to be greater pressure, this is not the end, this is only the
:18:32. > :18:38.beginning of the campaign is. -- campaign. Your numbers are going
:18:39. > :18:42.down? Somerset Coptic Christians are 10% of 90 million, others say it is
:18:43. > :18:48.viewer. The numbers seem to be going down? The numbers tend to be
:18:49. > :18:52.somewhere between 9- 13%. We have indications of about 15%. I think
:18:53. > :18:57.what we have seen, because it is such a book, it is very difficult to
:18:58. > :19:06.get what we have seen in other places. For every five Christians in
:19:07. > :19:09.the Middle East, four are in Egypt. They have become a target and they
:19:10. > :19:14.live under greater pressure. There will be some relief, but I can't
:19:15. > :19:20.imagine we will have that amount of haemorrhaging we have tried in other
:19:21. > :19:25.places, because what used to happen was that there would be persecution
:19:26. > :19:28.in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring Middle Eastern country.
:19:29. > :19:32.With a series of failed states, the only way out is Europe or North
:19:33. > :19:36.America and that is becoming more difficult. Let me ask you about a
:19:37. > :19:40.very sensitive and important word in this debate. The former Archbishop
:19:41. > :19:47.of Canterbury used it the other day. That word is genocide. He says that
:19:48. > :19:52.we have to acknowledge and report what is happening to Christians in
:19:53. > :19:57.the Middle East as a genocide, and that there are clear moral and legal
:19:58. > :20:01.imperatives, therefore, to intervene on the part of Western nations and
:20:02. > :20:06.international nations, not just Western nations. Is that word
:20:07. > :20:11.relevant? Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to
:20:12. > :20:17.Christians? Absolutely. We have seen it happen in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and
:20:18. > :20:24.of course in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in Egypt, from this
:20:25. > :20:29.radical fringe. I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the
:20:30. > :20:34.United States before the genocide by Congress, we went to the State
:20:35. > :20:38.Department, I was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much in
:20:39. > :20:43.line with that. I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister
:20:44. > :20:48.and a Christian, I need to look at the interests of people. I would be
:20:49. > :20:54.very tribal and supercritical if I was just to look at Christians in
:20:55. > :20:58.Egypt, without looking at Christians across the Middle East and looking
:20:59. > :21:01.at even groups like there easy to use. There is a narrow in scope
:21:02. > :21:08.through the Middle East. Only certain people have the right to
:21:09. > :21:16.exist. We need, in conscience, to address that. If it is a word you
:21:17. > :21:19.say is entirely the right word, then what on earth is your view of
:21:20. > :21:28.Western political leaders who are not intervening? There has been a
:21:29. > :21:34.deafening silence over the past decades. I think we have seen that
:21:35. > :21:38.starting to break recently. Some would say it is too little, too
:21:39. > :21:42.late, but is not too late for those who are still there and suffering.
:21:43. > :21:46.Whatever we can do, even at this late stage, we must try to do. Talk
:21:47. > :21:52.about those still suffering. There is also a debate about them, because
:21:53. > :21:56.frankly, it seems that in Iraq and Syria, even those still there are
:21:57. > :22:00.making plans to escape. They see no future in either country. They think
:22:01. > :22:04.the Christian experience and presence in those countries is over.
:22:05. > :22:17.Yet, we have Christian leaders, I will now quite your -- quote words
:22:18. > :22:21.from a former cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in Syria
:22:22. > :22:27.saying, despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate. We
:22:28. > :22:31.absorb the faithful, call them to patients in spite of the
:22:32. > :22:38.tribulations, spite of the tsunami and bloody, tragic crises. Jesus
:22:39. > :22:44.tells us, he finished, fear not. Do you, as a religious Christian
:22:45. > :22:50.leader, have a right to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all
:22:51. > :22:55.of this? The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way
:22:56. > :22:59.he thinks is fitting. What is your view of whether that is the right
:23:00. > :23:03.thing to say to ordinary Christian people facing the reality of life
:23:04. > :23:09.and death in Iraq and Syria today? It is exactly that, facing reality I
:23:10. > :23:15.don't think I should put the burden on a single individual for the
:23:16. > :23:18.continuance of Christianity, and have him or her stay there at the
:23:19. > :23:22.personal cost, because of that. I think people need to make a personal
:23:23. > :23:26.decision. If they think they have a viable presence in existence, we
:23:27. > :23:30.need to support them to stay safe and dignified. But if they need to
:23:31. > :23:34.leave, if they think, got they will decide on the interest and safety of
:23:35. > :23:39.their children and families, we need to provide a safe passage. I don't
:23:40. > :23:46.think we can prescribe that. What would you do if it was you and your
:23:47. > :23:53.family in Iraq or Syria today? It is difficult to know. If I was alone as
:23:54. > :23:57.a celibate monk, I would probably stay. If I had to look after a
:23:58. > :24:01.family with vulnerable people, children, the elderly, I would look
:24:02. > :24:04.after their interests. That is why I say it is a particular personal
:24:05. > :24:08.decision that we can't take away from people. They need to make those
:24:09. > :24:13.decisions for themselves and to be able to ensure the lights... We live
:24:14. > :24:18.in freedom, dignity and safety, and I don't think I should expect less
:24:19. > :24:25.of anybody in the world. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
:24:26. > :24:29.Thank you.