0:00:03 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News its time for HardTalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:13I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17In just a few days from now, Pope Francis will fly to Egypt
0:00:17 > 0:00:22to offer his personal support to Egypt's Coptic Christians.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25He'll find a community filled with apprehension,
0:00:25 > 0:00:29targeted by jihadist extremists, and subject to persistent
0:00:29 > 0:00:33discrimination and sectarian violence.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37Elsewhere in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq, the plight
0:00:37 > 0:00:39of Christians is even worse.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43My guest today is the General Bishop of the Coptic Church in the UK,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Bishop Angaelos.
0:00:45 > 0:00:50Do Christians have any future at all in the Middle East?
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Thank you.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Do you think there is something substantively different
0:01:24 > 0:01:30about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic Christians in Egypt today?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Because they have faced threats for many, many years...
0:01:33 > 0:01:33Yes.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37We have faced threats for centuries, and particularly over the past
0:01:37 > 0:01:41decades, but to have suicide bombers in churches is -
0:01:41 > 0:01:44is a shift, and it looks like the mirroring of attacks
0:01:44 > 0:01:46in other parts of the world.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian community generally,
0:01:49 > 0:01:53so much, Christians and Muslims.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57We haven't seen this level of aggression and violence.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59We've had attacks, which have been equally painful,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03but this does mark a very new chapter.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06And does that mean, I mean, since we saw the suicide bomb
0:02:07 > 0:02:09attacks on two churches, a cathedral in Alexandra,
0:02:09 > 0:02:11and the Church in Tanta, does that mean that Christian
0:02:11 > 0:02:14communities have to think more carefully than they have
0:02:14 > 0:02:16before about self-protection?
0:02:16 > 0:02:22Well, of course.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27We saw heightened security around churches in the lead up
0:02:27 > 0:02:32to Easter celebrations.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35The community is resilient.
0:02:35 > 0:02:36It's strong.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39It's very - it's faithful in it's worship, it's forgiving.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41But it has to be more careful.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45I have said, in the past week, that what is ironic is that these
0:02:45 > 0:02:49churches were bombed and attacked when they were full -
0:02:49 > 0:02:52that was only two months after the bombing in Cairo.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55So it hasn't dissuaded people from going to church.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Well, you talk about resilience, and I appreciate that as you said,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01those churches are still being filled, but there are signs
0:03:01 > 0:03:03that the Egyptian Cops are scared in a new way.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07I am thinking about what we have seen El Arish, a small town
0:03:07 > 0:03:10in northern Sinai, where the so-called IS group made explicit
0:03:10 > 0:03:12threats, saying "We are going to come after you Christians,
0:03:12 > 0:03:14and we are going to kill you."
0:03:14 > 0:03:17And we saw some deaths, but we saw many fleeing,
0:03:17 > 0:03:18leaving the community altogether.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20Do you believe that is an inevitable response?
0:03:20 > 0:03:29That that was the sensible response?
0:03:29 > 0:03:34Well, at the time, and that was the right response,
0:03:34 > 0:03:40because they felt - they had been undergoing attacks
0:03:40 > 0:03:41for weeks leading up to that.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44But at that point, they realised they had no more sustainable
0:03:44 > 0:03:46presence there and their families were at risk.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49So they moved to surrounding dioceses, that absorbed them.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51I don't think I would use the word "fear".
0:03:51 > 0:03:54I don't think I have heard any of our church leadership
0:03:54 > 0:03:57or community use the word fear, but they are concerned.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59And they have every right to protect their families.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02And they did that in this instance by leaving.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04But they remain targeted, because they can't all
0:04:04 > 0:04:15become internally displaced.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17An interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Bishop Makarios of Minya diocese, he said "We can now consider
0:04:20 > 0:04:23ourselves to be living through a wave of persecution."
0:04:23 > 0:04:25Is this an era of outright, sustained persecution,
0:04:25 > 0:04:26in your view?
0:04:26 > 0:04:28I think we've lived a history of persecution throughout our
0:04:28 > 0:04:29presence in Egypt.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31And it's intensified at various times.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33In our contemporary history, ever since the presence
0:04:33 > 0:04:36of the president, the former president, Sadat, when Islamists
0:04:36 > 0:04:39were given a slightly greater rein, and so they started to divide up
0:04:39 > 0:04:42the community in that way, Christians became more visible
0:04:42 > 0:04:43and a bigger target for them.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45It is a fault line, isn't it?
0:04:45 > 0:04:54I'm looking at the analysis of experts in Islamism in Egypt,
0:04:54 > 0:05:01like Naji Sharab.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07He says the intent, here, is to make a separation
0:05:07 > 0:05:10between Muslims and Christians, and to start a outright religious
0:05:10 > 0:05:11conflict in Egypt.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13That is what the so-called Islamic State is about.
0:05:13 > 0:05:14Can they succeed?
0:05:14 > 0:05:15I don't think so.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19They - they haven't so far.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22So whether it was after the bombing in Cairo, or these bombings,
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Egypt is very different to the rest of the Middle East.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28There - there isn't a tribal presence there.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32It is much more homogenous presence.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35In actual fact, what we see after every one of these attacks
0:05:35 > 0:05:38is a greater support from the greater Muslim community,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42because they see themselves in the community as targeted as well.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44So it doesn't make us more marginalised.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46People have come out to support us.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49The outpouring of support and shock that we have seen,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51in the community, both in Egypt and globally,
0:05:51 > 0:05:55as a result, is a tell-tale sign.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57To that extent, you strike me as an optimist.
0:05:57 > 0:06:03You could flip it around, and talk about how the state,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06represented by President al-Sisi and the machinery of the state,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11still doesn't take what would seem to me to be basic structural
0:06:11 > 0:06:17measures to ensure that the long-term discrimination
0:06:17 > 0:06:20against Coptic Christians in Egypt is addressed.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22You know, there's the short-term, the three-month emergency,
0:06:22 > 0:06:30and the specific new law about church construction,
0:06:30 > 0:06:34but many Copts say "What is taught in schools, what about the horrible
0:06:34 > 0:06:36extremism that comes from some mosques, why are these
0:06:36 > 0:06:38things not addressed?"
0:06:38 > 0:06:43I think we are starting to see it addressed in the past few months.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45I think it will take a generation.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48This sort of thought process has infiltrated the education system,
0:06:48 > 0:06:53the general society, so much that it needs to be replaced
0:06:53 > 0:06:55by something else.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56So the curricula have to change.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59The sense of citizenship, belonging to the country
0:06:59 > 0:07:05as a citizen, it has to change, and Christians it is he themselves
0:07:05 > 0:07:11as part of that, and Muslims living alongside them as well.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15I mean, I've spent time, myself, reporting for HARDtalk,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17in Upper Egypt, some of the towns around Aswan,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Minya, other towns along the Nile, going all the way down south,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23you still find many communities where Christians do feel
0:07:23 > 0:07:29that their security is constantly under threat.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32And the government knows it, but still doesn't seem to do
0:07:32 > 0:07:36much about it.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38That has been the weak point.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41So, at the national level, I think we have hearing very
0:07:41 > 0:07:43legitimate, very sincere promises from the President,
0:07:43 > 0:07:46from the government, from the national security services,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49but when one comes down to the local level, to the villages,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52to the districts, where there's a sense of impunity,
0:07:52 > 0:07:53because crimes are - crimes go unreported,
0:07:53 > 0:07:57sometimes, because they realise that it will not be investigated
0:07:57 > 0:08:00properly, there will be no reprisal, no convictions.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04And so therefore, there is a ratcheting up, there's
0:08:04 > 0:08:07an intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more
0:08:07 > 0:08:08deadly every time.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11And the question is, at local level, municipal level,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians
0:08:13 > 0:08:18are in positions of real authority?
0:08:18 > 0:08:23Say, in the judiciary, or in local government.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25You are a Copt with great knowledge of your country.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Can you, hand on heart, say your community is represented
0:08:28 > 0:08:34in the machinery of government and justice?
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Absolutely not.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41And that has been the problem over the past decades.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43There is most definitely a glass ceiling.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46And it's not because there aren't enough Christians or they are not
0:08:46 > 0:08:48intelligent enough or specialised enough, because what we see
0:08:48 > 0:08:52is the leading the public sector and go to the private sector,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55and becoming very, very successful.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57And that in itself creates a greater resentment,
0:08:57 > 0:08:59because they are being seen as successful.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02So think is part of the overall solution, in the sense
0:09:02 > 0:09:04of citizenship, there needs to be greater representation -
0:09:04 > 0:09:06and the understanding that Christians can be productive,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09sincere, faithful members of a community, and be people
0:09:09 > 0:09:16who can work side-by-side with Muslims.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19But Bishop, is not one of the problems that you and other
0:09:19 > 0:09:21senior leaders in the church, including the current Pope,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24but also Pope Shenouda, whom of course you worked
0:09:24 > 0:09:25for the past.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28You as a collection group at the top of the church have year-upon-year
0:09:29 > 0:09:32have been in the pocket of Egypt's rulers.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35And I am thinking of Mubarek, and now I'm thinking of Sisi.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38It obviously wasn't the case when the Muslim Brotherhood
0:09:38 > 0:09:41was in power, but you celebrated when Sisi came back to power.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44And the danger is coming yet again, that you're making the same mistake
0:09:44 > 0:09:47you and the church are allying yourself with an authoritarian
0:09:47 > 0:09:59leader.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Well, I don't think we've been in anyone's pocket.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04Because in a very literal sense, the church is self-funded,
0:10:04 > 0:10:05self-protected, we are self-governing.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08We haven't seen any greater benefits by supporting anyone.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11If we look across the presidencies in the past, we've been
0:10:11 > 0:10:12attacked equally throughout.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16And I think we have to change the paradigm of this conversation
0:10:16 > 0:10:21a little bit, because I think Christians in Egypt,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25as in anywhere, have a to right to express their allegiances
0:10:25 > 0:10:27to whichever political leadership or party they see
0:10:27 > 0:10:29will hold their interests, without reprisal.
0:10:29 > 0:10:30And I think that's very important.
0:10:30 > 0:10:35That can't be justification.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38But - yeah, but you know, a lot of Copts, today,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41I've been looking at the blogs, looking at social media.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44They are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem
0:10:44 > 0:10:47to be knee-jerk loyal to the president of the country,
0:10:47 > 0:10:50Mr al-Sisi.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53For example, while Iskander, who blogs frequently on Coptic
0:10:53 > 0:10:55issues, he's actually questioned the current Pope's fidelity
0:10:55 > 0:10:56to the Coptic creed.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00He said "The Pope and the Church, right now, show very little love,
0:11:00 > 0:11:01except to the regime, itself."
0:11:01 > 0:11:07I mean, he is - he is very resentful.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10I know, and I have communicated with him in the past.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13I agree with this frustration, but I don't think it
0:11:13 > 0:11:14is about loyalty.
0:11:14 > 0:11:15It is about alternatives.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Suppose we don't support the current president, al-Sisi.
0:11:17 > 0:11:27What is the alternative?
0:11:27 > 0:11:30We saw in the past presidency, our cathedral, for the first time
0:11:30 > 0:11:33in living history, being attacked in the sight of security forces
0:11:33 > 0:11:36who were standing, looking on and doing absolutely nothing.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37So that wasn't a viable option.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41What we can also realise is, if you are looking at the landscape,
0:11:41 > 0:11:44who is going to hold the interests of not only Christians,
0:11:44 > 0:11:45but Egyptians as a whole.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48If there was an alternative, I would say yes, of course,
0:11:48 > 0:11:54there is an alternative.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57But you know, this is a council of despair.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59You're saying we have to collaborate with authoritarians,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01because if you don't, you have no protection
0:12:01 > 0:12:02at all, you're defenseless.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04But I daresay Christians felt similar things
0:12:04 > 0:12:06in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and Bashar al-Assad's Syria.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09But look at what has happened to questions in those countries.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Because when the dam breaks, when the authoritarian
0:12:12 > 0:12:14loses his grip, because of the - quote unquote - collaboration,
0:12:14 > 0:12:17Christians are in even more danger, aren't they?
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Christians are in danger anyway.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21Over the past decades, we've seen that.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24And I don't think it is a blind allegiance.
0:12:24 > 0:12:25It is an informed choice.
0:12:25 > 0:12:32Because one looks at the options.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33Or lack of choice?
0:12:33 > 0:12:33Exactly.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35One looks at the options.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37On the 30th of September, when Egyptians came out
0:12:37 > 0:12:40into the streets, they were by no means only Christians.
0:12:40 > 0:12:41There was a huge spectrum.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Yet, when we see police officers killed, soldiers killed,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46no-one asks where they were on the 30th.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48No-one asks what their political support is.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51They realise that they are targeted because they are police officers
0:12:51 > 0:12:59or soldiers or anything else.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01So Christians are being targeted by this fringe, just
0:13:01 > 0:13:02because they are Christians.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05And I think no matter what ever the affiliation would be,
0:13:05 > 0:13:07they would still be targets because of the intolerance
0:13:08 > 0:13:12because of this fringe element within Egypt.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Well, you could speak out more.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19I'm giving you a chance in his interview to speak
0:13:19 > 0:13:20out against al-Sisi.
0:13:20 > 0:13:21A bunch of intellectuals, Coptic intellectuals,
0:13:21 > 0:13:25at the time he went to New York for the last UN General Assembly,
0:13:25 > 0:13:28came out and issued a statement, quite a condemnatory statement
0:13:28 > 0:13:29about Sisi, saying that "despite cooperation
0:13:30 > 0:13:32between the current regime and the Egyptian churches," and that
0:13:32 > 0:13:35would be, you know, church leaders like yourself "ordinary Christian
0:13:35 > 0:13:37citizens, day by day, still suffer from discrimination."
0:13:37 > 0:13:40You know, you have an opportunity, here, to say "Mr Sisi,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43President Sisi, your stand - your words about helping us
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and supporting us are not backed by actions, and it's
0:13:45 > 0:13:55not good enough."
0:13:55 > 0:13:56We have said that.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59But it would be naive of any of the analysts to say
0:13:59 > 0:14:03that we do not make demands and do not stand by our people.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06We have nothing to benefit except the interests of our people,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and we do make demands, whether it was for people in Arish,
0:14:09 > 0:14:16or who are attacked on a daily basis or others.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20And I think it is important for me as a bishop that we make these
0:14:20 > 0:14:23demands, we have made them to the government,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25through their dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear
0:14:25 > 0:14:29in making these claims.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33The background, it is striking to me that the Pope described
0:14:33 > 0:14:36the Arab Spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people
0:14:36 > 0:14:38across the region taking to the streets in support
0:14:39 > 0:14:41of Democratic change and reform, he described the Arab Spring as,
0:14:41 > 0:14:44quote, not a spring but a winter, plotted by malicious hands.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48Is that a place where Christians in the region want to be?
0:14:48 > 0:14:50Against that surge of populist support for change
0:14:50 > 0:14:58and an end to authoritarianism?
0:14:58 > 0:15:00No one is against reform, absolutely.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03I think we saw what was going to happen, we saw,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05knowing Egypt and knowing the political landscape,
0:15:05 > 0:15:08knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once this leader was gone,
0:15:08 > 0:15:18it would become a political vacuum.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20That vacuum would be filled by people who may not
0:15:20 > 0:15:23have the interests of the country at heart.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25We saw the greatest number of attacks in those two years
0:15:25 > 0:15:29than we had had for the previous 20 years, because it was
0:15:29 > 0:15:38an anarchic state.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41As well because there was a sense of empowerment of those
0:15:41 > 0:15:43who were on the fringes.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Those who didn't really want to think about anyone else.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49The thing about democracy is that it is a means to an end.
0:15:49 > 0:15:53I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is able
0:15:53 > 0:15:58to protect its smallest unit.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01Let me ask you about the visit of Pope Francis.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03We've been discussing how the local Coptic Church
0:16:03 > 0:16:06finesses its relationship to the state and power in a very
0:16:06 > 0:16:08troubled atmosphere in Egypt today.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10What do you want from Pope Francis?
0:16:10 > 0:16:13How robust do you want his message to the Egyptian government
0:16:13 > 0:16:21and people to be?
0:16:21 > 0:16:25I think on record, Pope Francis has been very robust in his message
0:16:25 > 0:16:27in support of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt,
0:16:27 > 0:16:29and indeed many persecuted people around the world.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32It is a Christian message of equality and sanctity of life
0:16:32 > 0:16:40and dignity of life.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42I think that is the message that people will get.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45He is primarily going to visit his own constituency,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48but also to support the Christians of Egypt, and to look
0:16:48 > 0:16:49into the Christian-Muslim dialogue on violent extremism.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I think that voice going into that dialogue, that conversation
0:16:52 > 0:16:59is going to be important.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02It's not about conferences and dialogues any more,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05it is about taking ownership of the texts that are being used
0:17:05 > 0:17:19by the caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate Muslims.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Muslims who could otherwise be very good Muslims,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23who use violence against peaceful, peace loving people.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25I have a Christian has broken...
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Do you think most Muslims are going to take lectures
0:17:28 > 0:17:29from leaders like Pope Francis?
0:17:29 > 0:17:33No.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and speak
0:17:37 > 0:17:39to our Muslim friends in leadership to say,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42they need to take this ownership of their own texts.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Some of them are doing it around the world.
0:17:44 > 0:17:52There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear that
0:17:52 > 0:17:56Egypt, the fate of Christians in Egypt could, in years to come,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58have horrible similarities to the fate of Christians
0:17:58 > 0:18:06in Iraq and Syria.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10In Iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80% of all Christians in the country
0:18:10 > 0:18:11either killed or have left.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14In Syria, the figures are getting close to that as well.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Christian communities are almost eliminated.
0:18:16 > 0:18:22Could that happen in Egypt?
0:18:22 > 0:18:24It is going to be more difficult.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27There is going to be greater pressure, this is not the end,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29this is only the beginning of the campaign.
0:18:29 > 0:18:30Your numbers are going down?
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Some have said Coptic Christians are 10% of 90 million,
0:18:33 > 0:18:35others say it is fewer.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39The numbers seem to be going down?
0:18:39 > 0:18:42The numbers tend to be somewhere between 9-13%.
0:18:42 > 0:18:43We have indications of about 15%.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I think what we have seen, because it is such a book,
0:18:47 > 0:18:50it is very difficult to get what we have seen in other places.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52For every five Christians in the Middle East, four
0:18:52 > 0:18:57are in Egypt.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00They have become a target and they live under greater pressure.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03There will be some relief, but I can't imagine we will have
0:19:03 > 0:19:06that amount of haemorrhaging we have had in other places,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09because what used to happen was that there would be persecution
0:19:09 > 0:19:12in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring
0:19:12 > 0:19:23Middle Eastern country.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27With a series of failed states, the only way out is Europe
0:19:27 > 0:19:29or North America and that is becoming more difficult.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Let me ask you about a very sensitive and important word
0:19:32 > 0:19:33in this debate.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36The former Archbishop of Canterbury used it the other day.
0:19:36 > 0:19:49That word is genocide.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52He says that we have to acknowledge and report what is happening
0:19:52 > 0:19:55to Christians in the Middle East as a genocide, and that there
0:19:56 > 0:19:57are clear moral and legal imperatives, therefore,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00to intervene on the part of Western nations and international nations,
0:20:00 > 0:20:01not just Western nations.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Is that word relevant?
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to Christians?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Absolutely.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13We have seen it happen in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and of course
0:20:13 > 0:20:16in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in Egypt,
0:20:16 > 0:20:17from this radical fringe.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the United States before
0:20:21 > 0:20:24the genocide by Congress, we went to the State Department,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27I was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much
0:20:27 > 0:20:29in line with that.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister
0:20:32 > 0:20:35and a Christian, I need to look at the interests of people.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38I would be very tribal and supercritical if I was just
0:20:38 > 0:20:41to look at Christians in Egypt, without looking at Christians
0:20:41 > 0:20:43across the Middle East and looking at even groups
0:20:43 > 0:20:53like the Yazidi, too.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55There is a narrow in scope through the Middle East.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58Only certain people have the right to exist.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00We need, in conscience, to address that.
0:21:00 > 0:21:10If it is a word you say is entirely the right word,
0:21:10 > 0:21:13then what on earth is your view of Western political leaders
0:21:13 > 0:21:22who are not intervening?
0:21:22 > 0:21:24There has been a deafening silence over the past decades.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27I think we have seen that starting to break recently.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31Some would say it is too little, too late, but is not too late
0:21:31 > 0:21:33for those who are still there and suffering.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35Whatever we can do, even at this late stage,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40we must try to do.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Talking about those still suffering, there is also a debate about them,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46because, frankly, it seems that in Iraq and Syria,
0:21:46 > 0:21:48even those still there are making plans to escape.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50They see no future in either country.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53They think the Christian experience and presence in those
0:21:53 > 0:21:56countries is over.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Yet, we have Christian leaders, I will now quote words from a former
0:21:59 > 0:22:03cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in Syria saying,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08We absorb the faithful, call them to patience in spite
0:22:08 > 0:22:10of the tribulations, in spite of the tsunami
0:22:10 > 0:22:20and bloody, tragic crises.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22Jesus tells us, he finished, fear not.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25Do you, as a religious Christian leader, have a right
0:22:25 > 0:22:37to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all of this?
0:22:37 > 0:22:41The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way
0:22:41 > 0:22:47he thinks is fitting.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51What is your view of whether that is the right thing to say to ordinary
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Christian people facing the reality of life and death in Iraq
0:22:54 > 0:23:03and Syria today?
0:23:03 > 0:23:05It is exactly that, facing reality.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08I don't think I should put the burden on a single individual
0:23:08 > 0:23:11for the continuance of Christianity, and have him or her stay
0:23:11 > 0:23:13there at the personal cost, because of that.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16I think people need to make a personal decision.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18If they think they have a viable presence in existence,
0:23:18 > 0:23:26we need to support them to stay safe and dignified.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29But if they need to leave, if they think, they will decide
0:23:29 > 0:23:32on the interest and safety of their children and families,
0:23:32 > 0:23:34we need to provide a safe passage.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38I don't think we can prescribe that.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42What would you do if it was you and your family in Iraq
0:23:42 > 0:23:42or Syria today?
0:23:42 > 0:23:48It is difficult to know.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51If I was alone as a celibate monk, I would probably stay.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54If I had to look after a family with vulnerable people,
0:23:54 > 0:23:56children, the elderly, I would look after their interests.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00That is why I say it is a particular personal decision that we can't take
0:24:00 > 0:24:08away from people.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11They need to make those decisions for themselves and to be able
0:24:11 > 0:24:12to ensure the rights...
0:24:12 > 0:24:15We live in freedom, dignity and safety, and I don't think
0:24:15 > 0:24:18I should expect less of anybody in the world.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Bishop Angaelos, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:21 > 0:24:22Thank you.