:00:00. > :00:21.Rich, ruthless, and famous: My guest is a new institution,
:00:22. > :00:24.known for the buildings he has built, and the wives
:00:25. > :00:27.You don't want to cross him, though, because he likes
:00:28. > :00:32.And he's made it a rule that no-one pushes him around -
:00:33. > :00:37.So how did he lose all his money and then get it back again?
:00:38. > :00:43.Donald Trump, a very warm welcome to the programme.
:00:44. > :00:45.You say you can't make an omelette without breaking
:00:46. > :00:47.That sounds like a very destructive business
:00:48. > :00:56.I'm not sure I have actually used those words.
:00:57. > :01:00.Generally, you had to shake things up pretty much in order to do
:01:01. > :01:06.And they have shaken things up, and I've had the best business use
:01:07. > :01:17.We hear a lot about its the roughest, toughest,
:01:18. > :01:19.the most ruthless business in the world.
:01:20. > :01:23.I think the business tends to be tougher than in other places,
:01:24. > :01:27.The real estate business in New York is an amazing business.
:01:28. > :01:31.And any time you have a great business, you always have
:01:32. > :01:34.Do you have to be a killer in business?
:01:35. > :01:37.I think you have to be smart in business.
:01:38. > :01:40.I don't think you have to be a killer, I think you have
:01:41. > :01:44.That many have to have eyes in the back of your head,
:01:45. > :01:47.always looking to is going to get you, put
:01:48. > :01:50.One of the things I say in the book,
:01:51. > :01:54.very strongly, is you have to be paranoid.
:01:55. > :01:57.And the book is selling so well, well, and so people believe
:01:58. > :02:00.But there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree
:02:01. > :02:05.You watch what is happening behind your back.
:02:06. > :02:07.And I think that is probably very true in business.
:02:08. > :02:12.If you are paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that?
:02:13. > :02:16.How much can you actually sit back and say look what I've done,
:02:17. > :02:20.I think that there is great enjoyment.
:02:21. > :02:24.I think that paranoia cannot be carried to a large shattering crisis
:02:25. > :02:34.People are out there and they are looking and looking
:02:35. > :02:43.But I think success brings great enjoyment.
:02:44. > :02:55.Most of my business is the building of things.
:02:56. > :03:04.I get great pride that of Trump Tower per which is on 57th
:03:05. > :03:09.5th Ave in New York, or the hotel in Central
:03:10. > :03:13.I get a great sense of artistic enjoyment at those
:03:14. > :03:24.What are the business methods in the city?
:03:25. > :03:27.You have been in New York your whole life.
:03:28. > :03:29.I don't think that New York is that much different
:03:30. > :03:33.What I do think is there is a greater energy New York.
:03:34. > :03:37.There is a great verve, or to drive, maybe New York,
:03:38. > :03:40.And really, than any other place I have seen.
:03:41. > :03:42.But I don't think the business itself is much
:03:43. > :03:44.different in New York than anywhere else.
:03:45. > :03:48.Greed, corruption, I mean, you say, it is as though a line in the book,
:03:49. > :03:53.Well, I don't think that greed is good.
:03:54. > :03:56.As you know, they did that famous film with Michael Douglas,
:03:57. > :03:58.Wolf of Wall Street, where greed is good.
:03:59. > :04:04.I think you have to enjoy what you are doing.
:04:05. > :04:07.If you enjoy what you're doing, it will be
:04:08. > :04:12.If you don't enjoy what you are doing, it is almost never
:04:13. > :04:26.The richer you get, I suppose, the bigger the target that
:04:27. > :04:36.I think that rich men, I guess, are always targets.
:04:37. > :04:47.I think there is a level of celebrity that my team that has
:04:48. > :04:50.become so prodigious that makes me an even bigger target.
:04:51. > :04:52.So was bothers me, but there is really not
:04:53. > :04:58.Well, it has just become tough to go out.
:04:59. > :05:05.It's hard to be discreet restaurant, in a sense, because it is always
:05:06. > :05:10.It didn't used to be that is a symbol of success,
:05:11. > :05:13.It is, but it is not a good symptom, necessarily.
:05:14. > :05:18.Because you go out and you would have dinner with a group
:05:19. > :05:20.of people are struck, the lender being a big event
:05:21. > :05:23.and there are people waiting at the entrance for you.
:05:24. > :05:27.It is just a very tough way to live a life, I find.
:05:28. > :05:30.You talk in book about getting even, the importance of getting even.
:05:31. > :05:36.If somebody has hurt you, if somebody has got out of their way
:05:37. > :05:39.to hurt you, if you have the opportunity, it is certainly go
:05:40. > :05:44.I've had more criticism about that 17 in than any other statement.
:05:45. > :05:55.If you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy have presumably
:05:56. > :05:58.suggested to you, what would that do to your reputation in business
:05:59. > :06:02.I don't know what it would do to my reputation.
:06:03. > :06:04.I just believe in instinctively turning the other
:06:05. > :06:13.So it isn't virtue, if they want to do a number on you,
:06:14. > :06:16.I really believe that you should just do a number on them,
:06:17. > :06:22.Well, there were people that are really helped in business
:06:23. > :06:25.when things were very good in the 1980s, and in my company
:06:26. > :06:30.And they did not lift a finger to help me when I needed it.
:06:31. > :06:34.And there were a couple of them that could have very easily held me.
:06:35. > :06:37.Now I have the opportunity to do a number on those people,
:06:38. > :06:40.and I will tell you, and having a lot of fun
:06:41. > :06:43.Who were the movers and shakers in this society?
:06:44. > :06:47.We get the impression in New York that power is in the hands of a few
:06:48. > :06:49.very, very rich people, yourself included.
:06:50. > :06:53.Is that still the weight business is conducted in the city?
:06:54. > :06:56.I think New York is very much run politically.
:06:57. > :06:59.We have a mayor, Rudy Giuliani, who has done an incredible
:07:00. > :07:02.And just been re-elected by a huge margin.
:07:03. > :07:04.I think it is the largest margin ever.
:07:05. > :07:11.And so it starts off with the Mayor, the leadership,
:07:12. > :07:14.We have other people within the business
:07:15. > :07:16.community, obviously, that are very important,
:07:17. > :07:20.But the city has just become very, very hot.
:07:21. > :07:23.And I think it is due to Rudy, and people in business,
:07:24. > :07:31.It is just a place where everyone wants to be.
:07:32. > :07:43.And I happen to be the biggest developer
:07:44. > :07:46.in New my company now has do much better than it ever did
:07:47. > :07:51.Well, I think one thing is perseverance.
:07:52. > :07:54.When things were tough at the beginning of the 90s,
:07:55. > :07:56.for me and every one else, the problem with
:07:57. > :07:58.me was I was getting all the publicity.
:07:59. > :08:02.I called it the Great Depression in the early 90s,
:08:03. > :08:08.And it was real estate in retailing and airlines,
:08:09. > :08:10.and various other businesses, they were in a total depression.
:08:11. > :08:14.And I survived, and most people did not survive.
:08:15. > :08:17.A lot of my friends, a lot of good people and that people
:08:18. > :08:22.And you probably never will hear from them again.
:08:23. > :08:25.But you know, I survived to a point where the
:08:26. > :08:28.company is much bigger now than it ever was,
:08:29. > :08:30.and much stronger, financially, then it ever was.
:08:31. > :08:33.But in the early 90s, you face the possibility
:08:34. > :08:37.In fact, on paper, you had lost that much of it in.
:08:38. > :08:40.-- In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything.
:08:41. > :08:42.I faced the possibility of losing everything.
:08:43. > :08:46.I focused my mental energies and all of my energy.
:08:47. > :08:50.I think one of the reasons why a really
:08:51. > :08:54.succeeded and bigger than even in the 80s is the fact that,
:08:55. > :09:00.It is a long would come to think of it.
:09:01. > :09:12.It is the world changed, the economy change,
:09:13. > :09:14.and there was a survival tactic until a certain year.
:09:15. > :09:20.And in 1995, things started changing.
:09:21. > :09:28.To start off with, I really played myself a little bit,
:09:29. > :09:30.because I've always been able to pick markets.
:09:31. > :09:33.And I really was not focused was into the 80s.
:09:34. > :09:48.And it is no different from you if you do
:09:49. > :09:50.15 great interviews, and in the 60s you can take
:09:51. > :09:58.I put my guard backup and put my defences and offences
:09:59. > :10:02.more than I ever did in the 80s, and worked harder than I did
:10:03. > :10:05.And actually became much more successful.
:10:06. > :10:07.You had to believe in your own abilities.
:10:08. > :10:09.Was there time where you thought "I really
:10:10. > :10:16.Because I owed billions and billions of dollars.
:10:17. > :10:20.$975 million or so was personally guaranteed.
:10:21. > :10:25.When you are that deep in debt, you are mired in debt,
:10:26. > :10:28.and you are that deep in debt, that is a pretty rough situation
:10:29. > :10:31.And the vultures circling around you?
:10:32. > :10:34.You had plenty of bad people circling.
:10:35. > :10:37.And some good people, friendly, that wanted to get paid.
:10:38. > :10:41.But it was just, it was hunker down time, as they say
:10:42. > :10:45.You learn some lessons about the people
:10:46. > :10:48.who were your friends and those who would your friends?
:10:49. > :10:51.I read once that I would love to sort of have a bad
:10:52. > :10:54.period, financially, just to see who my friends would be,
:10:55. > :10:58.I will never write again, because it is not fun.
:10:59. > :11:00.It might be a self-fulfilling prophecy?
:11:01. > :11:05.I have done that period, and in that time, I learnt a lot.
:11:06. > :11:09.They also learned that there was a very good
:11:10. > :11:15.friends out there for me, and then people who did not help.
:11:16. > :11:17.Tell me about the women in your life, because
:11:18. > :11:20.there seems a sense in which, you say in the book,
:11:21. > :11:22.you have measured the women by your mother.
:11:23. > :11:28.I don't measure women by my mother, but they have a woman and my mother
:11:29. > :11:34.And I've been married to very nice women, but it just didn't work out.
:11:35. > :11:36.And I think part of that, one of the negatives
:11:37. > :11:39.to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown
:11:40. > :11:41.in your way in terms of relationship.
:11:42. > :11:46.I'm thinking about these great buildings all over,
:11:47. > :11:49.the largest job ever approved by the New
:11:50. > :11:51.York city planning commission in the west side.
:11:52. > :11:56.There is a lot of things that I am doing a building.
:11:57. > :11:59.And think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship.
:12:00. > :12:03.I must a netted a positive way, but almost
:12:04. > :12:06.Because it is very negative and has a relationship.
:12:07. > :12:09.And success may be great in terms of living and
:12:10. > :12:12.lifestyle and beautiful homes and of this stuff that doesn't mean
:12:13. > :12:14.very but success is not necessarily very
:12:15. > :12:17.Women are far stronger than men, you say.
:12:18. > :12:21.I believe that women are actually stronger
:12:22. > :12:25.And actually say that they are not so much stronger, but I think
:12:26. > :12:28."Their sex drive makes us look like babies."
:12:29. > :12:32.I think the woman's sex drive is as much greater than a man's.
:12:33. > :12:35.I have been witness to it, and perhaps you have,
:12:36. > :12:37.But sex drive of women is extraordinary.
:12:38. > :12:40.And they like to betray themselves as the weaker sex,
:12:41. > :12:45.I think that probably, they are certainly the more
:12:46. > :12:48.And even a business, I have found that some women
:12:49. > :12:55.I say this was scorn or anything else.
:12:56. > :12:59.But I think the women, in many cases, are more
:13:00. > :13:02.You've seen that sex drive first hand.
:13:03. > :13:06.You talk about the woman of great social pedigree and the dinner party
:13:07. > :13:10.Well, I've had a lot of circumstances where a woman's
:13:11. > :13:13.sexual drive has turned out to be just
:13:14. > :13:14.And not necessarily anticipated by me.
:13:15. > :13:20.There really was a specific dinner, though, wasn't there?
:13:21. > :13:24.I would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest,
:13:25. > :13:27.it is was embarrassing talking about it in an interview.
:13:28. > :13:29.Because it really is mostly a business book.
:13:30. > :13:32.But I think that women have a lot to do with
:13:33. > :13:36.They've a lot to do the effect on your life and how
:13:37. > :13:41.She embarrassed you, though, this woman.
:13:42. > :13:43.Your didn't give the name in the book...
:13:44. > :13:45.Somebody else wrote a book and named everyone.
:13:46. > :13:48.It was their feet under the table, was that it?
:13:49. > :13:52.There are so many instances like this.
:13:53. > :13:54.And I do talk about them in the book.
:13:55. > :13:58.It is not what the book is all about.
:13:59. > :14:01.But the book is about success, and frankly,
:14:02. > :14:03.women are so influential, on you, at the world,
:14:04. > :14:06.and the world around you, they have devoted a lot of to women
:14:07. > :14:20.You say that women have one of the "greatest acts" in the world.
:14:21. > :14:22.The smart ones very feminine and needy, but inside,
:14:23. > :14:27.It sounds as though you almost have a sort of love hate
:14:28. > :14:30.I have mostly a love relationship with
:14:31. > :14:32.women, because they totally admire and respect and love women.
:14:33. > :14:38.I feel that there is a - the ones who
:14:39. > :14:41.go out and do it without waiting the banner of women's liberation.
:14:42. > :14:43.And if you look at the really successful
:14:44. > :14:47.women, those are the ones that are not had to wait that big banner.
:14:48. > :15:01.Two wives, that you have had, Ivana and Marla.
:15:02. > :15:05.I have good relations relationships with both of them.
:15:06. > :15:12.You were in an ongoing fight with one of them at the time
:15:13. > :15:16.I mean, well, see, I would rather want to address the question
:15:17. > :15:20.sometime later because at this moment, umm, I have a very good
:15:21. > :15:24.I think I have a very good relationship with
:15:25. > :15:27.Marla, but I will be able to tell you better later.
:15:28. > :15:32.You stressed the importance of the prenuptial agreement,
:15:33. > :15:35.even to use this vicious document, and people who signed a 50% more
:15:36. > :15:37.likely to divorce than those who don't.
:15:38. > :15:39.But yet you stressed that this is the
:15:40. > :15:42.Prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious,
:15:43. > :15:44.terrible documents that you have to have.
:15:45. > :15:47.I mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married,
:15:48. > :15:50.and if you are a person of substance, man or a woman
:15:51. > :15:52.of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement.
:15:53. > :15:54.And the reason is the word certainty.
:15:55. > :15:56.You need certainty over your business.
:15:57. > :15:59.You can't be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement.
:16:00. > :16:02.You just have to have a prenuptial agreement.
:16:03. > :16:05.And even if you do, you have had battles,
:16:06. > :16:10.Even when you do, I mean, even when you
:16:11. > :16:15.Well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight.
:16:16. > :16:19.And people who will still fight over prenuptials, I know people that have
:16:20. > :16:23.prenuptial agreements they have given, they are legion.
:16:24. > :16:25.But, umm, you know, the prenuptials are very
:16:26. > :16:32.It's always hard to go up to somebody and say,
:16:33. > :16:35.look, I love you very much, but if and when we
:16:36. > :16:37.get divorced, this is what you're getting.
:16:38. > :16:39.So, you know, would you agree to that?
:16:40. > :16:43.There's nothing nice about a prenuptial
:16:44. > :16:47.But from a practical standpoint, and living in this world,
:16:48. > :16:49.and living through a very difficult court system,
:16:50. > :16:51.and everything else, I think it's absolutely necessary
:16:52. > :16:56.And at some point I actually devote a chapter in the book
:16:57. > :16:59.So, you think that if you can sort out
:17:00. > :17:02.the finances, that somehow the relationship will take
:17:03. > :17:05.I think that finances and relationships are very,
:17:06. > :17:13.I think that finances, that great success
:17:14. > :17:16.often leads to bad relationships are unfortunately.
:17:17. > :17:26.I think that the reason somebody becomes successful
:17:27. > :17:30.is they who focuses on success, his or her success, not necessarily
:17:31. > :17:37.But, I think that there are times when both
:17:38. > :17:40.Getting the right partner is a very important
:17:41. > :17:43.Having the right partner can be a very beautiful
:17:44. > :17:46.thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that.
:17:47. > :17:51.It is certainly not number one in my mind.
:17:52. > :17:55.I am having a lot of fun doing what I am doing.
:17:56. > :18:03.I think there is nothing like having a good
:18:04. > :18:06.I think having a great relationship is more important than deals
:18:07. > :18:08.and more important than everything else.
:18:09. > :18:10.I find that business comes very easily when you
:18:11. > :18:14.I have just found that historically it's
:18:15. > :18:17.Most people would say it's just the opposite,
:18:18. > :18:24.I think that a relationship is based on so many
:18:25. > :18:26.different things that are adverse to business.
:18:27. > :18:29.And I think that having that great relationship does
:18:30. > :18:32.not necessarily go with having a good business.
:18:33. > :18:35.Most important to you seems to be your children,
:18:36. > :18:40.Yeah, I have great children and they are very important to me.
:18:41. > :18:44.That is one of the good things that came out of the relationship.
:18:45. > :18:50.And your parents, I used to very close to them?
:18:51. > :18:52.And your parents, are still very close to them?
:18:53. > :18:56.I have a great relationship with them.
:18:57. > :19:02.My father was a builder in Brooklyn in Queens.
:19:03. > :19:10.And I learned a lot just sitting on his knee,
:19:11. > :19:15.you know, listening to him from the time I grew up.
:19:16. > :19:17.And I just learned a lot about negotiating
:19:18. > :19:21.and I learned a lot about building, I learned a lot about business.
:19:22. > :19:24.And while he was at a different level in terms of the kinds
:19:25. > :19:27.of things he did, he still built, and he built, you know,
:19:28. > :19:32.He built some jobs out in Brooklyen, Queens, and in the boroughs
:19:33. > :19:34.of New York, for low and moderate income
:19:35. > :19:38.And, you know, he did a really good job at what he did.
:19:39. > :19:42.Some of the most important people in the world
:19:43. > :19:45.There was a dinner you went out with Michael Jackson
:19:46. > :19:50.Tell me about that, because he seemed almost lost
:19:51. > :19:51.when you took him out to a restaurant.
:19:52. > :19:56.What do you remember about that evening?
:19:57. > :19:58.Michael Jackson was literally just...
:19:59. > :20:08.But he was literally going to a restaurant.
:20:09. > :20:11.We went to Le Cirque, the great Le Cirque, with Sirio.
:20:12. > :20:16.And Michael was sitting at the table and he just sort of...
:20:17. > :20:18.It was like he was never at a restaurant.
:20:19. > :20:22.He did not know about manners, he did not know about things.
:20:23. > :20:24.And I said to him, when was the last you
:20:25. > :20:31.And I believe that was true, because he was so not at ease
:20:32. > :20:39.And saying that he was just not somebody was exposed to this
:20:40. > :20:43.What I really thought was interesting was there are many
:20:44. > :20:44.great celebrities at that restaurant.
:20:45. > :20:47.People were asking him for his autograph.
:20:48. > :20:50.That, to me, was the funniest thing about the evening.
:20:51. > :20:56.And Frank Sinatra you fell out with at some point.
:20:57. > :21:02.I said so many things about Frank Sinatra
:21:03. > :21:10.He was rough and tough at the table with somebody,
:21:11. > :21:13.not me, but somebody at the table, namely his wife.
:21:14. > :21:19.I was just amazed at how bad this particular incident was.
:21:20. > :21:27.And then I realised, you go outside and everyone
:21:28. > :21:32.is pulling at his coat strings trying to get his autograph,
:21:33. > :21:35.trying to break him down one way or the other.
:21:36. > :21:37.It really was pretty tough from all of those
:21:38. > :21:44.And as I mellowed, coming into my third book, I said,
:21:45. > :21:47.you know, I feel badly about writing about him.
:21:48. > :21:50.And I did the same thing with Malcolm Forbes.
:21:51. > :21:56.When I was having trouble with Forbes Magazine,
:21:57. > :21:59.I did not feel good about Malcolm Forbes.
:22:00. > :22:03.Then I realised he was just doing his thing just trying to do
:22:04. > :22:05.the right thing, and I apologised to Malcolm
:22:06. > :22:08.Forbes, because he was just really doing his thing.
:22:09. > :22:12.And New York City has lost a great guy and a great
:22:13. > :22:16.The impression from what you write is that you haven't had
:22:17. > :22:20.You haven't enjoyed relations with the press, you think the press
:22:21. > :22:33.I think a lot of the press is dishonest, I think a lot of the
:22:34. > :22:37.press is really, really dishonest. Most people think I get great
:22:38. > :22:43.publicity. I happen to think I get terrible publicity. Do you mind what
:22:44. > :22:47.people say about you? I used to mind much more. The one thing I have
:22:48. > :22:53.learned is that it is a one-week phenomenon. Does not matter. Usually
:22:54. > :22:57.at the end of a week or even a it is gone. Once you get that into your
:22:58. > :23:00.head you can live with it. The lessons you have learned over your
:23:01. > :23:07.they? It is very, very focused. I they? It is very, very focused. I
:23:08. > :23:11.think I help people, I like people, I have a good relationship with the
:23:12. > :23:16.ball, I have a lot of good relationships with people in
:23:17. > :23:21.business and generally. -- people. Do people try to lean on you?
:23:22. > :23:26.Everyone does. I don't mind being leaned on if it is to help somebody.
:23:27. > :23:30.I really enjoy helping people at high levels and at low levels and I
:23:31. > :23:35.feel that is very important to give to charity. I give a lot of money to
:23:36. > :23:40.charity, I try to give as much as I can. But, you know, there are times
:23:41. > :23:43.when you just have to say that is enough, that is all I can do. People
:23:44. > :23:47.might look at you and think yourselves, I wonder what it is like
:23:48. > :23:51.to have all of that money. Donald Trump, what is it like to have all
:23:52. > :23:55.of that money? Well, again, money does not buy happiness ended it does
:23:56. > :24:00.not buy lots of other things, but it certainly makes life easier, and it
:24:01. > :24:04.lets me create what I want to do artistically. Because in a certain
:24:05. > :24:09.sense I am an artist. I built the greatest buildings in the world and
:24:10. > :24:13.in the biggest developer in New York City and I love what I am doing and
:24:14. > :24:17.I have put up great things. And having money and having the kind of
:24:18. > :24:22.access to money that I have allows me to do what I like to do best. If
:24:23. > :24:27.someone said I want to be Donald Trump, what would you say? I would
:24:28. > :24:30.say good luck. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you.