:00:00. > :00:14.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The war in Yemen has killed
:00:21. > :00:26.more than 10,000 civilians. That is an appalling number. But it may soon
:00:27. > :00:32.be dwarfed by the numbers starving to death. Yemen is experiencing a
:00:33. > :00:37.humanitarian catastrophe which the warring parties are making worse and
:00:38. > :00:42.of which the outside world seems unwilling or unable to tackle. My
:00:43. > :00:45.guest is the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in the country, Jamie
:00:46. > :01:09.McGoldrick. Is he losing the struggle to save millions of lives?
:01:10. > :01:23.Jamie McGoldrick, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Here use it on
:01:24. > :01:28.a visit to the United Kingdom. -- you sit. Your bases in Yemen. What
:01:29. > :01:33.is the right word to describe the situation in Yemen today? Is the
:01:34. > :01:40.right word famine? Fountain will come if the conditions continued. --
:01:41. > :01:43.Famine. The war, insecurity, the collapse of the economy, all of that
:01:44. > :01:48.is lending to a situation where there is no choice but to slip into
:01:49. > :01:52.it. 7 million people in the country already are in a fragile situation
:01:53. > :01:57.in terms of the lack of security. If we cannot respond with medical
:01:58. > :02:02.support and support in food and nutrition, they will famine by the
:02:03. > :02:06.end of the year. Really? 7 million? I always feel that we start to talk
:02:07. > :02:10.about salmon and we start to talk about these sorts of numbers and
:02:11. > :02:15.there is a danger people around the world will feel that perhaps you are
:02:16. > :02:18.exaggerating. -- famine. The idea of 7 million people facing the very
:02:19. > :02:23.immediate and real danger of starvation to death is almost
:02:24. > :02:29.unimaginable. Yeah. But it doesn't happen all at once. It happens
:02:30. > :02:33.incrementally. Measures we have taken in communities in 59 districts
:02:34. > :02:36.through the country, in the north and the south, shows quite clearly
:02:37. > :02:41.the fragility of the communities, the families and individuals. If we
:02:42. > :02:45.don't do something like give more money and response and humanitarian
:02:46. > :02:48.assistance to those populations and at the same time don't give them the
:02:49. > :02:53.health support, 50% of medical services and clinics no longer
:02:54. > :02:56.function, if all of that is in place and we can do better in terms of
:02:57. > :03:01.response, those fragile people will do better. Is this a man-made
:03:02. > :03:05.catastrophe? Completely. This has nothing to do with nature. This is
:03:06. > :03:10.completely to do with warring parties in the conflict they are not
:03:11. > :03:13.doing what they are supposed to do, address the situation properly. The
:03:14. > :03:18.international committee does not give us the resources we need to be
:03:19. > :03:24.we have 50% funded of an appeal that requires $2.1 billion. If that is
:03:25. > :03:28.the situation, those people who are the most vulnerable, those living
:03:29. > :03:31.hand to mouth and who don't know where the next meal is coming from
:03:32. > :03:35.and cannot feed their families, we cannot help them because we don't
:03:36. > :03:40.have the resources and access. I want to unpick where the situation
:03:41. > :03:46.is happening and where the blame lies. The degree to which people
:03:47. > :03:50.care. This was said the other day. Yemen is the forgotten conflict.
:03:51. > :03:55.Forgotten. Is that the way you feel about when you sit in your office in
:03:56. > :04:02.Yemen? I would not have forgotten. I was a purposefully forgotten. --
:04:03. > :04:08.would say. Yemen, you have other crises in the region which are
:04:09. > :04:15.overshadowing it. There is more involved. More is given to Hom and
:04:16. > :04:21.Aleppo. Did you feel that that you are not getting a message across? I
:04:22. > :04:26.know you are in HARDtalk today, but you, not just you, the international
:04:27. > :04:29.humanitarian machinery, including the United Nations and all those
:04:30. > :04:34.agencies, they have failed. We have failed because we do not have the
:04:35. > :04:38.resources. It is not that we are not telling the story properly, the
:04:39. > :04:42.parties don't want the story told. Who doesn't want the story told? You
:04:43. > :04:51.talk about the suffering. The suffering is coming from the warring
:04:52. > :04:58.parties. Let us name them. The Houthis and the other. It is because
:04:59. > :05:02.of that. We need to do something to get that story out and alert the
:05:03. > :05:06.world to the magnitude of the suffering. 7 million people cannot
:05:07. > :05:13.feed their families. 500,000 children under five are still
:05:14. > :05:20.illegal pictures you see on TV in any crisis. -- are those skeletal.
:05:21. > :05:26.You talk about the Houthi rebels, the government, which now sits in
:05:27. > :05:33.Aden because it had to quit Sana'a, and the third element, the Saudi-led
:05:34. > :05:38.coalition. They are the outsiders in the conflict. You are pointing the
:05:39. > :05:43.finger at the richest country in the Middle East as being directly
:05:44. > :05:47.responsible for keeping this crisis outside public view. Is that what
:05:48. > :05:50.you are saying? What we are saying is right now the parties involved in
:05:51. > :05:54.the conflict don't really care at all about the people they say they
:05:55. > :05:58.represent. So we have a situation where you have millions and millions
:05:59. > :06:03.of people, up to 90 million people, who need some form of assistance. We
:06:04. > :06:07.cannot get resources to them. -- 19 million. We don't have the funds.
:06:08. > :06:13.Because of that, people, of no fault of their own, represented by some of
:06:14. > :06:16.these groups, supposedly represented in political discussions by these
:06:17. > :06:21.groups, they are abandoned to the rain fade, which is starvation. If
:06:22. > :06:29.that is all true, and you are passionate about it, why did your
:06:30. > :06:33.boss, after a donors conference the other day, and to raise more than $2
:06:34. > :06:40.billion to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Yemen? Why
:06:41. > :06:44.did he come away from it saying it was an outstanding success when the
:06:45. > :06:47.pledges you got only a matter to half of what you wanted. It was an
:06:48. > :06:51.outstanding success because people came around the table for the first
:06:52. > :06:55.time to talk about the humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen, that hasn't
:06:56. > :07:00.been done... Hang on. The message delivered to the potential donors
:07:01. > :07:05.was these people are at risk of starvation and famine right now, and
:07:06. > :07:09.unless you make good on some financial pledges, they will die of
:07:10. > :07:16.the end you only got half of what you wanted, and you call that a
:07:17. > :07:20.success. -- die. If we can turn those pledges in the real cash and
:07:21. > :07:23.deliver assistance to those people and start saving lives, that is a
:07:24. > :07:32.strong message for the second half of the year. That is a very big if.
:07:33. > :07:38.Isn't it? Look at the reality. Look at all of northern Nigeria, Syria,
:07:39. > :07:49.the conflict there, Afghanistan, all those! Watch chance have you got,
:07:50. > :07:53.not even of getting to the $2 billion you say you need, but also
:07:54. > :07:57.the 1 billion you said you got the other day. What we hope is that we
:07:58. > :08:03.can deliver, which we are doing well, despite all the circumstances.
:08:04. > :08:07.And if we have more resources, we can save more lives. People are
:08:08. > :08:14.willing to invest in that. We have things set up. We are saving lives
:08:15. > :08:17.and are delivering food to 3 million people a month. Water, sanitation,
:08:18. > :08:22.and health, to millions every month. We have more opportunity to save
:08:23. > :08:26.lives. Why would, frankly, international donors feel it is
:08:27. > :08:30.worth pouring resources into Yemen when one looks at the reports from
:08:31. > :08:36.the ground and it is clear that the warring parties, and you name the
:08:37. > :08:43.Saudi-led coalition, so let us stick with them, are using aerial
:08:44. > :08:47.bombardment to sit civilian targets. Now, -- hit. Now, they deny they do
:08:48. > :08:53.it deliberately, but the facts on the ground is clear. Many, including
:08:54. > :08:57.children and women in hospitals, have been killed by the Saudi-led
:08:58. > :09:03.coalition. All parties in this conflict have a blatant disregard to
:09:04. > :09:06.do with anything to do with civilians and infrastructure. Just
:09:07. > :09:16.as you mentioned. 1600 kids have been used for recruitment is to
:09:17. > :09:21.military forces. -- recruitments. One of the actual motives of this
:09:22. > :09:24.crisis, I think, is completely disregarding the responsibilities of
:09:25. > :09:30.the Geneva Conventions. You want money! Yes. You want money to
:09:31. > :09:35.rebuild hospitals and finance the saving of lives. That, of course,
:09:36. > :09:40.means healthcare. If you look at what was said by the most recent UN
:09:41. > :09:44.sponsored watchlist report, what is happening on the ground, they say,
:09:45. > :09:50.quote, the coalition is responsible for repeated attacks on medical
:09:51. > :09:58.facilities and staff. They are leading these attacks to the closure
:09:59. > :10:04.of hospitals, compromise in -- compromise on children's access to
:10:05. > :10:11.medicine. Are you really going to get more money from donors? We will,
:10:12. > :10:16.because of the UN's necessity to do this. The more we get, the more we
:10:17. > :10:18.can do in response to this. On the military side of things, it is not
:10:19. > :10:29.my concern. My concern is the impact. It has to
:10:30. > :10:34.be concerned. I want all parties of the conflict to understand
:10:35. > :10:39.obligations and accept them. Is it time for you to speak out and say,
:10:40. > :10:43.do you know what, there are things on the ground I have seen and which
:10:44. > :10:48.might have seen which are tantamount to war crimes. You have seen the
:10:49. > :10:52.reports. They are already there. I am asking you. I have seen the
:10:53. > :10:58.humanitarian impact of the airstrikes, shelling, all that. I
:10:59. > :11:01.have seen the impact. Who was responsible? I would lived up to the
:11:02. > :11:10.other parties, international community is. -- leave it to. The
:11:11. > :11:14.Secretary General... Let me ask you a question. This is what the Saudi
:11:15. > :11:18.UN ambassador said, the accusation of these reports that we have
:11:19. > :11:24.attacked and bombarded civilian targets, including healthcare
:11:25. > :11:28.facilities, are unfounded. We have exercised maximum restraint and
:11:29. > :11:33.rigourous rules of engagement. What is your response to that? That is
:11:34. > :11:39.the response from the outside... Is it true? Facts on the ground and
:11:40. > :11:44.reports say there need to be more investigations and legally sound
:11:45. > :11:47.arguments to say this has happened to be that has not happened because
:11:48. > :11:53.we don't have monitors and people the ground. I have no way of proving
:11:54. > :11:57.that. No one has that technical judgement and ability to make that.
:11:58. > :12:02.I absolutely understand your job is to co-ordinate the humanitarian
:12:03. > :12:12.efforts. There is a much you can do about the conflict in Yemen or say.
:12:13. > :12:16.But the United States is, it seems, more keen than ever to back the
:12:17. > :12:22.Saudis in this, and it is, a regional conflict. Does that concern
:12:23. > :12:25.you? Anything that contributes to the conflict continuing is what I
:12:26. > :12:29.would worry about because of the impact it has on the lives of
:12:30. > :12:33.people. People are completely powerless. Anything that adds more
:12:34. > :12:37.fuel to that fire and more arms to that fight would make the conflict
:12:38. > :12:42.exacerbated and make it difficult for us and make it difficult for a
:12:43. > :12:48.population to survive this and they are fragile anyway. A picture of
:12:49. > :12:56.what you actually can do on the ground right now. Sana'a is occupied
:12:57. > :13:01.by Houthi forces. There are pockets of conflict all around the country.
:13:02. > :13:04.Some territory is still held by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
:13:05. > :13:09.There is talk also of so-called Islamic State having a presence in
:13:10. > :13:17.Yemen today. Realistically, what can you actually do and deliver? Well,
:13:18. > :13:25.the UN and its partners, the NGOs, Red Cross, and other, we have five
:13:26. > :13:32.bases, the north, south, east, west, and metal. We are through the
:13:33. > :13:36.country entirely. -- middle. There is no problem getting to people. The
:13:37. > :13:42.problem is that there is interference, the version,
:13:43. > :13:46.blockages. The biggest issue apart from that is resources. If we don't
:13:47. > :13:50.have resources, it doesn't matter how many people around the ground if
:13:51. > :13:56.we cannot deliver them to be we need resources to save lives. Is it just
:13:57. > :14:04.resources? For example,, I know that the most important facilities get
:14:05. > :14:10.aid into the country, for example, Hadeda. It has been bombed. Five of
:14:11. > :14:13.the cranes that lift goods out of the ships in the port are not in
:14:14. > :14:18.operation. It isn't just about money.
:14:19. > :14:27.Is very much a topical issue right now. We need that port because of
:14:28. > :14:33.the proximity to the population. The location and the fact that it has
:14:34. > :14:37.the capacity to offload both commercial and humanitarian goods.
:14:38. > :14:44.This is a company that relied on 90% of its imports to survive. If that
:14:45. > :14:47.doesn't work, then there is a problem for people to access
:14:48. > :14:55.humanitarian goods. Saudi coalitions as, we cannot, at the moment, stand
:14:56. > :15:00.by and let the port do what it does, because we know that the Houthi
:15:01. > :15:06.rebels are shipping significant amount of arms through that port. I
:15:07. > :15:11.think people know that the arms do not just come through those ports,
:15:12. > :15:15.there are many ways they can get into the country. Yemen is awash
:15:16. > :15:20.with weapons and ammunition, it has been for decades. Everyone in the
:15:21. > :15:27.country has a gun, that is the kind of country -- The Saudi coalition.
:15:28. > :15:34.What you have to think about is we yourself and a significant UN
:15:35. > :15:38.presence may be required inside the port to stop that. Are you prepared
:15:39. > :15:47.to go in, monitor, it inspect and manage the port so that it will be
:15:48. > :15:53.an easier route for the aid to reach the country? -- inspect. We want the
:15:54. > :15:58.port not to be hurt any further, we do not want a military intervention.
:15:59. > :16:02.At the conference in Geneva, key member states all made this plea to
:16:03. > :16:06.say that the port should be protected because of the assistance
:16:07. > :16:12.it gives the population. Anything that the UN can do to prevent that,
:16:13. > :16:24.discussion for all parties involved, the authorities and the Saudi
:16:25. > :16:31.coalition, a conversation would have to take place for us to be able to
:16:32. > :16:35.deliver humanitarian aid. You told us that there are 7 million people
:16:36. > :16:38.who are on the brink of starvation, who don't know whether they will
:16:39. > :16:43.have enough to eat tomorrow. There is not enough time for a long winded
:16:44. > :16:47.negotiations. Port is still functioning, but in a diminished
:16:48. > :16:55.way. We are looking at other ways to bring food into the country. Plans
:16:56. > :16:59.will be put in place in case the port gets embroiled in a military
:17:00. > :17:03.conflict. We just think it should not because it is so important. We
:17:04. > :17:08.know from Saudi officials that they have gathered forces within military
:17:09. > :17:13.reach of the port. What is your message to them? The same message
:17:14. > :17:20.that Angela Merkel made the other day, there is no military solution.
:17:21. > :17:26.No one has won anything of great note as yet. We have come to a
:17:27. > :17:31.situation where we are stymied. We are looking for that not to need to
:17:32. > :17:36.go any further, to come up with a solution for that port to remain a
:17:37. > :17:40.vector for ice to deliver assistance to the population in need. I don't
:17:41. > :17:44.think a military campaign will make any difference. I don't think we can
:17:45. > :17:48.see a victory there. I don't think it will be the tipping point that
:17:49. > :17:55.will bring about a game changed, it will be hard fought by all sides.
:17:56. > :18:00.Negotiations tend to get somewhere when all sides come to a realisation
:18:01. > :18:03.that there is not going to be a military victory. Do you think we
:18:04. > :18:07.have got there? I think that countries would look back and think,
:18:08. > :18:10.in two years, what have we gained? What we need to do is get the
:18:11. > :18:16.international community to put pressure on those parties to get
:18:17. > :18:20.back to negotiations. There is no military or humanitarian solution to
:18:21. > :18:24.this crisis. We are just keeping people alive. Parties must
:18:25. > :18:32.understand this is the only way forward. It takes them to start to
:18:33. > :18:36.said to themselves, you never hear political leaders saying anything
:18:37. > :18:41.about this human suffering. There is a regional political interest, and
:18:42. > :18:47.we are looking for an opportunity to get people back to the table, stop
:18:48. > :18:50.the war, silenced the guns, give us a ceasefire and give us the
:18:51. > :18:55.resources. What you're saying is deeply depressing, that the parties
:18:56. > :19:03.to the conflict, not just talking about the Yemeni parties, but none
:19:04. > :19:05.of them really consider all frankly, care, about the humanitarian
:19:06. > :19:10.suffering in the country. I would say that's true. Would you say
:19:11. > :19:17.that's true of, talking about Saudi Arabia, one of the closest strategic
:19:18. > :19:21.partners of the Saudi Arabian government is the United States
:19:22. > :19:27.government, the UK government also backs the Saudi Arabian government.
:19:28. > :19:30.I think it is one of the inconsistencies you find in
:19:31. > :19:34.conflicts in the Middle East, you get different parts of government is
:19:35. > :19:39.supporting different aspects of the conflict. It is unfortunate, on one
:19:40. > :19:45.hand we are supported in the humanitarian point of view by the
:19:46. > :19:54.parties to keep the conflict moving. I am trying to be to sitting in your
:19:55. > :20:00.office, responsible for staff in five countries, people telling you
:20:01. > :20:07.that the situation is deteriorating and thousands are suffering. What
:20:08. > :20:11.kind of poll does it take on new? I think it galvanises you and makes
:20:12. > :20:16.you harder and stronger, trying to fix it. The UN is the only
:20:17. > :20:20.international body inside the country, there is a lot of pressure
:20:21. > :20:27.on us and a lot of things we should be doing more of. What I would do
:20:28. > :20:31.is, I go out to some of these areas. I went out two weeks ago to be on
:20:32. > :20:36.clay for the city which is closed. It took me nine and a half months to
:20:37. > :20:41.negotiate entry. There is some hope there, but you also see some
:20:42. > :20:44.negative elements. You see children dying of Armenia because there are
:20:45. > :20:51.no salaries for staff and no medicine. At the same time, you see
:20:52. > :20:57.expensive cars. That inconsistency is unfortunate and inhumane. It is
:20:58. > :21:02.my job to wake up in the morning, bang on the doors and push on with
:21:03. > :21:06.the team that is there. I understand that Desire just to push on, but
:21:07. > :21:12.there are some extraordinary figures. 462,000 babies and young
:21:13. > :21:17.children under the age of five are at a real threat of death because
:21:18. > :21:23.they are suffering from acute, severe malnutrition. That suggests
:21:24. > :21:28.that all of the work you are trying to do, you are failing. Are failing
:21:29. > :21:32.because not getting to the people with the resources quickly enough.
:21:33. > :21:38.If you look at some of the figures and trends, while the severe
:21:39. > :21:45.malnutrition has not, it has not gone that greatly more than it was
:21:46. > :21:48.two years ago, we have still made a difference. We have an immense task
:21:49. > :21:55.ahead of us. There are children dying, or one child every ten
:21:56. > :22:00.minutes. In this programme, children who have died through preventable
:22:01. > :22:05.diseases in a hospital, if they get to the hospital, the hospital is not
:22:06. > :22:10.working. Or, there is no medicine in the hospital. So, there are people
:22:11. > :22:14.dying in villages all around the country, and nobody is recording the
:22:15. > :22:21.deaths. Not because of the conflict, but because of the consequences of
:22:22. > :22:26.the conflict and the economy not working. Famine, water problems,
:22:27. > :22:30.health problems, they kill people on a very regular basis. This cannot be
:22:31. > :22:35.properly tackled unless there is an end to the walkways alow totally.
:22:36. > :22:43.There is no meaningful peace process right now. You would need to get
:22:44. > :22:50.some kind of peace process going, that has failed. How bleak, how
:22:51. > :22:56.depressed are you right now? You would be normally, but last week I
:22:57. > :23:00.was quite pleasantly surprised by the force of support that came to
:23:01. > :23:04.us. A better understanding and qualification of what is behind it.
:23:05. > :23:13.At the same time, quite a decent response to the appeal for $1.1
:23:14. > :23:16.billion. The talk in the room, conversations that critical
:23:17. > :23:20.settlement is required... One crucial moment in our exchange, you
:23:21. > :23:27.told me that you don't think any party in this conflict really cares
:23:28. > :23:37.about the scale of suffering. So it will go on? No, what is happening is
:23:38. > :23:43.a tailspin of deterioration of the humanitarian population. The
:23:44. > :23:48.responsibility for that relies with all the parties involved in that --
:23:49. > :23:52.lies. They have to say, enough is enough. The people in Yemen have
:23:53. > :23:56.said that, they can't take this any more. They are at breaking point.
:23:57. > :24:02.They have sold their land, children get married much younger, people are
:24:03. > :24:05.suffering. I think we are at breaking point. If we don't stop
:24:06. > :24:11.that soon, nobody knows what will happen in Yemen. Political and
:24:12. > :24:15.otherwise. It could be damaged irreconcilable, nobody knows. Jamie
:24:16. > :24:26.McGoldrick, we have to end there, but thank you for being on HARDtalk
:24:27. > :24:43.thank you. -- HARDtalk. Thank you.