:00:00. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. South Africa's ANC was once
:00:21. > :00:25.seen as an inspirational model for Africa. Now it is becoming a
:00:26. > :00:30.watchword for infighting, cronyism, corruption and the dangers of
:00:31. > :00:35.1-party rule. President Jacob Zuma stands accused of abusing his power
:00:36. > :00:42.not just by his enemies but by many erstwhile ANC colleagues. My guest
:00:43. > :00:47.today, Fikile Mbalula, was made Police Minister in a recent
:00:48. > :00:49.controversial Cabinet shakeup. As the scandals pile-up are we
:00:50. > :01:15.witnessing the slow death of the ANC?
:01:16. > :01:28.Fikile Mbalula, welcome to HARDtalk. Let's begin with a simple question,
:01:29. > :01:32.there is no doubt the ANC government is in crisis, who do you believe has
:01:33. > :01:41.the responsibility for that crisis? Well, I wouldn't say it is a crisis.
:01:42. > :01:49.I would say we are undergoing some challenges in relation to what is
:01:50. > :01:57.happening now. And I think it is a test of time, which has happened not
:01:58. > :02:04.only now, over a period of time ANC has been tested. It has emerged
:02:05. > :02:10.victorious at each turning point in terms of its history. Well, you call
:02:11. > :02:13.it a challenge, I call it a crisis. I don't know what other word you
:02:14. > :02:19.could use when even the vice president suggests that the actions
:02:20. > :02:26.taken by his boss, the president, Jacob Zuma, have been unacceptable.
:02:27. > :02:34.Well, the deputy president can express those views but we must
:02:35. > :02:37.understand the president has his prerogative and they have been
:02:38. > :02:43.placed in those positions by membership of the African National
:02:44. > :02:47.Congress to lead, even in difficult times, even in times when you don't
:02:48. > :02:57.necessarily agree with the decisions of the President or whoever but it
:02:58. > :03:02.is President Zuma's time and he is entitled to those decisions, and
:03:03. > :03:05.both by the guidance of the ANC Constitution and the national
:03:06. > :03:09.conference resolution, to take a decision to reshuffle his cabinet
:03:10. > :03:14.after consultation, that is what the resolution says. Yes, but minister,
:03:15. > :03:18.he isn't, is he, entitled to reshuffle his cabinet, to fire his
:03:19. > :03:25.respected finance minister and the deputy finance minister without
:03:26. > :03:33.proper consultation with ANCA and Cabinet colleagues. And according to
:03:34. > :03:37.both of the Deputy President and the Secretary General of the ANC, there
:03:38. > :03:45.was no proper consultation before Mr Gordon and Mr Jonas were fired? They
:03:46. > :03:54.are entitled to those views and to the descent. They probably don't
:03:55. > :03:59.agree to the President, in terms of the shuffling -- dissent. But the
:04:00. > :04:06.ANC resolutions say that the President after consultation will
:04:07. > :04:12.basically exercise his prerogative. We have since reflected on that
:04:13. > :04:19.matter and both the deputy president and the Secretary General have
:04:20. > :04:26.ventilated, you know, their displeasure about certain issues.
:04:27. > :04:30.But the ultimate end, we have cohered around the issue and we have
:04:31. > :04:34.accepted that we have to move on and continue to build South Africa and
:04:35. > :04:37.make a great country. A lot of people have not accepted that you
:04:38. > :04:40.simply need to move on. I am thinking of the highly respected
:04:41. > :04:48.senior and veteran liberation struggle is, they are in the party
:04:49. > :04:51.integrity commission, who having watched the events of this
:04:52. > :04:56.catastrophic reshuffle declared that President Jacob Zuma must go --
:04:57. > :05:01.strugglers. Well, the integrity commission you are referring to has
:05:02. > :05:08.never placed any report before us. We know that there was an attempt to
:05:09. > :05:13.project the integrity commission. We have equally reflected on that.
:05:14. > :05:18.There was no decision of the integrity committee that the
:05:19. > :05:23.President must go. There are some veterans in our country and in our
:05:24. > :05:28.movement who have over a period of time, for quite sometime now, taken
:05:29. > :05:37.a position that the President must go. Yes, indeed. Ahmad Kathrada,
:05:38. > :05:42.perhaps the most respected individual who sadly lost his life
:05:43. > :05:46.recently. At the funeral his own words from a year ago were read out
:05:47. > :05:52.from the congregation, which was a collection of the most senior and
:05:53. > :05:57.respected ANC people. And when his words, a year ago, in which he said
:05:58. > :06:02.that it is time for Jacob Zuma, for the good of the party, to resign the
:06:03. > :06:07.leadership, when those words were read out there was applause and
:06:08. > :06:10.there was cheering. It is clear that Jacob Zuma no longer commands the
:06:11. > :06:16.support of many of the most loyal members of your party. It is not
:06:17. > :06:21.correct, equally, that the president does not enjoy support. The motion
:06:22. > :06:26.that the President must step down, it was tabled and it was defeated at
:06:27. > :06:30.the level of the national executive committee. It was tabled in
:06:31. > :06:38.parliament and it was defeated. So, the question that some among us have
:06:39. > :06:42.got a different view, and they want the President to go, it is a
:06:43. > :06:48.well-known, documented fact and it does not mean that a majority of ANC
:06:49. > :06:53.members agree with that. We know as members of the ANC that it is a
:06:54. > :06:58.national conference properly constituted and that if not,
:06:59. > :07:06.branches of the ANC, through two thirds majority, that can call for a
:07:07. > :07:10.conference and bake Mac -- basically asking to step down. We are going to
:07:11. > :07:14.a conference of which President Zuma will step down as the President.
:07:15. > :07:20.That is happening in less than six months from now. Going to the
:07:21. > :07:25.national conference of the ANC in December. Yes, well, you are talking
:07:26. > :07:28.about stepping down as leader of the ANC, you're not talking about
:07:29. > :07:33.stepping down as the president of the country. And many in the country
:07:34. > :07:38.feel that this sense of crisis in governance cannot be resolved
:07:39. > :07:42.without the end of Zuma's presidency not least because it is about
:07:43. > :07:48.something fundamental, the phrase we hear from your country so often,
:07:49. > :07:54.that is state capture, there are so many allegations now of ways in
:07:55. > :07:59.which the Zuma government has been captured by private interests,
:08:00. > :08:04.wealthy individuals, cronies of the President, in ways that suggest
:08:05. > :08:12.decision-making has been fundamentally corrupted. Well, we
:08:13. > :08:18.know of those views but we know that the ANC is not captured in any way,
:08:19. > :08:28.and we have also reflected, if you want to speak about the Guptas as a
:08:29. > :08:33.movement, we have spoken about that at the national executive committee.
:08:34. > :08:36.And indeed, we as members of the ANC, and in particularly the
:08:37. > :08:42.national executive committee of the ANC, were not guided by a corrupt
:08:43. > :08:45.acts nor cronyism. How can you tell me it is clear that the Zuma
:08:46. > :08:50.government hasn't been captured by these powerful private interest when
:08:51. > :09:00.we know that the former public protector, wrote a report which part
:09:01. > :09:04.up evidence that stake capture was happening and that she said that we
:09:05. > :09:10.now need in South Africa and independent judicial investigation.
:09:11. > :09:23.That is a call that has been repeated in the recent past from
:09:24. > :09:29.Cyril Ramaphosa and yet you have failed to establish this independent
:09:30. > :09:36.judicial enquiry. Why? Steve, you will know that as much as there
:09:37. > :09:42.seems to be an overwhelming view which is contested in our country,
:09:43. > :09:46.Thulisile Nomkhosi's report is a subject of contestation. Remember,
:09:47. > :09:50.there was a long debate and argument around that, including the evidence
:09:51. > :09:55.that was supposed to be led and given by the President and by all
:09:56. > :10:00.those who were actually implicated. So, it is not correct to suggest
:10:01. > :10:06.that that report is cast in stone. The report is being contested by
:10:07. > :10:12.people implicated in the report. The fact is, when we hear of stories
:10:13. > :10:15.which have evidence base, of brown paper bag stuffed with cash being
:10:16. > :10:22.offered to politicians if they will do the bidding of, and you name
:10:23. > :10:26.them, they denied it, but you have named them, the Gupta family, then
:10:27. > :10:29.it is clear that there is something rotten at the heart of the South
:10:30. > :10:32.African government and without an independent Judicial Commission of
:10:33. > :10:36.enquiry I am struggling to see how are to convince anybody that the
:10:37. > :10:40.government is taking this seriously. If you talk about state capture and
:10:41. > :10:45.you are not biased in relation to the Guptas, you will be very clear
:10:46. > :10:48.that that report is under contestation. Those who gave
:10:49. > :10:52.evidence, and they were given brown envelopes, have come to the fore.
:10:53. > :10:58.Those matters will equally be tested going forward. That is in the
:10:59. > :11:03.Judicial Commission of enquiry that has to be established. That report
:11:04. > :11:11.equally is a matter of contestation. In terms of our laws... Minister,
:11:12. > :11:15.minister, minister, you are the minister for police, so I know that
:11:16. > :11:19.you regard procedure as very important. I am really asking you a
:11:20. > :11:23.question about procedure which you are continuing to ignore. Cyril
:11:24. > :11:29.Ramaphosa, the deputy president, has said that this story of brown
:11:30. > :11:35.envelopes of cash being offered to politicians, it has basically become
:11:36. > :11:39.a problem, he says, for us in the ruling party, it is critical that
:11:40. > :11:44.these allegations of state capture be tested and put to rest because
:11:45. > :11:50.they are, for us in the ANC, the elephant in the room. So, this is a
:11:51. > :11:53.question of procedure, whether you are prepared to countenance an
:11:54. > :11:59.independent judicial enquiry. Are you or are you not? None of us in
:12:00. > :12:04.the ANC have contested that, and none of us are complicit in the
:12:05. > :12:12.corruption. Cyril Ramaphosa, the deputy President, is articulating a
:12:13. > :12:18.principled position in which all of us as public representatives will
:12:19. > :12:25.condemn in the strongest terms any form of corruption including bribery
:12:26. > :12:28.by anybody that would have been as reported in the state capture
:12:29. > :12:32.report, it is what would have been undertaken. We have been very clear
:12:33. > :12:39.with that. There is no point about it. All I am saying to you is that
:12:40. > :12:42.the report state capture, as it stands in terms of facts, some of
:12:43. > :12:47.the people implicated are contesting the veracity of those facts. And if
:12:48. > :12:53.the Judicial Commission of enquiry will be established, the Judicial
:12:54. > :12:57.Commission of enquiry will basically give the open space for everybody to
:12:58. > :13:04.clear their names and those who are guilty to be dealt with by the rut
:13:05. > :13:10.of the law. Well, because it hasn't been tested, I am not sure how you
:13:11. > :13:13.can tell me that no one in the ANC government is corrupt or taking
:13:14. > :13:17.backhanded sweeteners because the process hasn't been carried through
:13:18. > :13:21.-- wrath. What I will tell you is your assurances to me that the ANC
:13:22. > :13:25.leadership is united are clearly nonsensical because not only Anae
:13:26. > :13:28.quoting to you Cyril Ramaphosa, who is demanding a proper investigation,
:13:29. > :13:41.listen to these words from the ANC parliamentary chief chief whip
:13:42. > :13:46.Jackson Mthembu, we are divided, we are busy scoring spectacular own
:13:47. > :13:51.goals, and all that we are concerned about is accumulating wealth as if
:13:52. > :13:57.there is no tomorrow. Yes, Jackson Mthembu might have expressed that
:13:58. > :14:01.particular viewpoint. His views in relation to the matters of
:14:02. > :14:07.corruption, they are not only a matter of concern. The state is
:14:08. > :14:19.intact. The state has actually acted against the corrupt people whether
:14:20. > :14:25.they wear our colours or not, or whatever ideological colour you want
:14:26. > :14:29.to make us believe is that we ANC members and leaders were implicit in
:14:30. > :14:34.corruption, we protect corruption, whereas that is not the case. We
:14:35. > :14:39.have acted at every turn in relation to matters of corruption as guided
:14:40. > :14:43.by our courts and where the state organs have had to arrest, including
:14:44. > :14:49.members of the ANC, they have acted without any hindrance. I am simply
:14:50. > :14:54.reporting to you the grave concerns of people inside your own party,
:14:55. > :15:03.that is why I call this a crisis for the ANC. Let me try one more time
:15:04. > :15:06.with you. The former ANC treasurer general, Mathews Phosa... Hang on a
:15:07. > :15:11.second. He says this, we are not servants of the people any more in
:15:12. > :15:16.the ANC. We have a president and when we plead with him to go these
:15:17. > :15:21.days. My plea is this, for once, Mr President, serve your people and go
:15:22. > :15:23.now because if you do not history will judge you to be the architect
:15:24. > :15:39.of the destruction of the ANC. Mathews Phosa and whoever in
:15:40. > :15:43.concert, they are not ANC. There is a lot of discipline numbers of the
:15:44. > :15:49.ANC if you have not sought to express any view in the manner in
:15:50. > :15:54.which some of the views have been expressed. You are telling me one of
:15:55. > :16:05.the struggle is for the liberation of South Africa, he does not for you
:16:06. > :16:13.represent the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa? He is a leader but where I
:16:14. > :16:17.correcting you is views expressed by individuals who are members of the
:16:18. > :16:24.ANC did not necessarily represent what the ANC represents in the
:16:25. > :16:33.National African Congress. If Mathews Phosa has a view about Zuma
:16:34. > :16:39.to go, it is not the view that the majority of the ANC members have.
:16:40. > :16:46.There is still debate not yet settled weather the next vote of
:16:47. > :16:50.confidence or no-confidence in Jacob Zuma should be by secret ballot.
:16:51. > :16:55.Those who want him to go believe that a secret that it would give
:16:56. > :17:01.politicians much more freedom to express their real feelings about
:17:02. > :17:06.Jacob Zuma. Let me put you on the spot, to use support the democratic
:17:07. > :17:12.idea of a secret ballot? Our Constitution does not allow that in
:17:13. > :17:17.terms of the voting process is in Parliament but equally, we have been
:17:18. > :17:25.tested to their limit. To think that the African National Congress can
:17:26. > :17:30.actually take a position to take itself out of power, simply because
:17:31. > :17:37.the opposition wants that, we are here in Parliament as an date of all
:17:38. > :17:46.voters and we will never take ourselves out of power because the
:17:47. > :17:52.opposition would also never do that. If are a may say so, you strike the
:17:53. > :17:57.is a senior member of cabin crew on the Titanic refusing to accept the
:17:58. > :18:03.ship is going down. It is not just the opposition out to get Mr Zuma,
:18:04. > :18:08.the South African federation of trade union, the South African
:18:09. > :18:13.Communist Party, which is clearly lined up alongside the ANC, both
:18:14. > :18:20.those institutions also said Jacob Zuma is to go. Baby gone to the
:18:21. > :18:27.street to listen to people who say that President must not go. -- have
:18:28. > :18:36.you gone. The view you are expressing is one-sided stop it is a
:18:37. > :18:43.coalition of forces. It is not the view of the majority. I have seen
:18:44. > :18:50.opinion polls,... Hang on. You asked me what I have seen. The latest TNS
:18:51. > :18:55.poll says seven out of ten South Africans believe Jacob Zuma should
:18:56. > :19:01.go. The economic situation seemed this disastrous cabinet reshuffle
:19:02. > :19:10.has taken a new downward turn. We have had South African debt turned
:19:11. > :19:17.into junk old status by SNP. -- junk bond. You have an unofficial
:19:18. > :19:24.employment rate of 50%. You are now supervising economic as well as
:19:25. > :19:32.political chaos. There is no political chaos. It is the wishes of
:19:33. > :19:39.others that want this to be seen as that. It is important that everybody
:19:40. > :19:46.comes to the party, in the interests of all South Africans and a national
:19:47. > :19:52.interest to career around what is important around our country. In
:19:53. > :19:59.relation to growth and employment creation has been a matter that has
:20:00. > :20:08.been receiving all attention since 1994. Even the recession that we
:20:09. > :20:13.have come to whip those exacerbated the situation. In this particular
:20:14. > :20:21.instance, we are going to have to ensure we get out of the quagmire of
:20:22. > :20:25.jobless growth and an economy which has not been assisted in terms of
:20:26. > :20:32.employment creation. Leaders have looked at this downgrade and said
:20:33. > :20:38.that people who will suffer... Hang on... This is the words of the
:20:39. > :20:43.banking Association of South Africa, the people who will suffer are the
:20:44. > :20:48.pork because they will feel interest rate rises and inflation rise. I say
:20:49. > :20:54.to you, those economic experts you are talking about, do not speak
:20:55. > :21:02.about them as though they do not have an ideological interest. They
:21:03. > :21:10.do! And probably those of vested interests want to get rid of Jacob
:21:11. > :21:17.Zuma. It means the State, in relation to the economy and the
:21:18. > :21:23.poorest people, must continue to be perpetuated. The Zuma government
:21:24. > :21:27.that is a leading talks radical transformation in the interest of
:21:28. > :21:31.the poll, to ensure we redistribute land and our people become the
:21:32. > :21:37.primary beneficiaries of that particular programme. Thanks of the
:21:38. > :21:43.reshuffle, you are police Minister. South Africa is a terrible problem
:21:44. > :21:47.of violence and insecurity. I am wondering if it was useful and wise
:21:48. > :21:52.for you in one of your first statement as police Minister to talk
:21:53. > :21:58.about instilling new levels of fear in criminals, telling the police
:21:59. > :22:03.that if they are approached by violent criminals, the police should
:22:04. > :22:08.outgun them, meet fire with fire. You are not given your guns as toys,
:22:09. > :22:15.you told the police. Is that really the best way to address South
:22:16. > :22:20.Africa's massive insecurity problem? That is probably the best way to
:22:21. > :22:27.deal with violent crimes and violent criminals who terrorise our society
:22:28. > :22:37.full of making our people gripped by fear. In fear of free movement. We
:22:38. > :22:42.are steadfast and clear in relation to criminals within the context of
:22:43. > :22:45.the law. It seemed to me there was something alarming and threatening
:22:46. > :22:52.about your words. You talked about protesters and warned protesters not
:22:53. > :22:58.to do damage during demonstrations and you said, I do not want another
:22:59. > :23:05.Marikana, referring to the mass killing around the mine some time
:23:06. > :23:10.ago, do not want another Marikana were police open fire and people
:23:11. > :23:14.died. Suggesting your message to protesters in the future if they
:23:15. > :23:22.might well face police who to quote you should not view their guns as
:23:23. > :23:29.toys. No, no, no dog do not exaggerate situations. That message
:23:30. > :23:36.is directed to the criminals. Criminals who are dangerous and
:23:37. > :23:42.think they can run South Africa. I am very clear when it comes to
:23:43. > :23:52.protesters, we are upgrading our approach in terms of our units and I
:23:53. > :23:57.am saying that those units of the police that are supposed to deal
:23:58. > :24:04.with specific dangerous crimes, will not come closer to ordinary South
:24:05. > :24:11.Africans who are protesting. Minister Fikile Mbalula, we thank
:24:12. > :24:36.you very much for joining us from Cape Town.
:24:37. > :24:39.The weather contrast on Wednesday got a little bit more stark