0:00:00 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15A dozen years ago, Europeans looked to Turkey and thought they saw
0:00:15 > 0:00:18a country becoming more like them, embracing Western values
0:00:18 > 0:00:20and on a long-term track to EU membership.
0:00:20 > 0:00:21But today, well, Europe sees authoritarianism,
0:00:22 > 0:00:24conservatism, and repression embodied in the all-powerful figure
0:00:24 > 0:00:31of President Erdogan.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33My guest is Elif Shafak, the Turkish novelist and writer
0:00:34 > 0:00:40who lives much of her life in London.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Does the West get anywhere close to understanding Turkey's complex
0:00:42 > 0:00:48culture and politics?
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Elif Shafak, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21When you write of Turkey today, I wonder what emotions draw you?
0:01:21 > 0:01:25Would it be anger or sadness or incomprehension?
0:01:26 > 0:01:30I think there is a lot of sadness. I feel sad.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34I feel worried.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37So much is changing in Turkey and so fast.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41I think speed is important with many things that are happening,
0:01:41 > 0:01:45with a bewildering speed which almost prevents time to stop
0:01:45 > 0:01:51and analyse because something else happens next week and so it goes
0:01:51 > 0:01:53on and on.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57I am very sad when I look at the direction that my motherland
0:01:57 > 0:02:00has taken, and I think we have become a very unhappy nation,
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and unhappy people.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Do you feel that you and Turkey have a greater distance
0:02:05 > 0:02:10between you than ever before?
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Because I referred to the fact that you live most of your
0:02:14 > 0:02:15life in London.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Even from being a young girl, you were very used to travelling
0:02:18 > 0:02:21around the world, but doesn't the distance from your motherland
0:02:21 > 0:02:22feel much greater today?
0:02:22 > 0:02:24I wouldn't generalise like that because, as you know,
0:02:24 > 0:02:26Turkey is a very polarised, bitterly divided, bitterly
0:02:26 > 0:02:29politicised country.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33So there is also a civil society in Turkey that perhaps we do not
0:02:33 > 0:02:39hear much about.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42But within that civil society, there are so many progressive
0:02:42 > 0:02:44people, open minded Democrats who do know that their country deserves
0:02:44 > 0:02:51much better than this.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Minorities, women, students, youth, so when I look at the people,
0:02:54 > 0:02:55I feel very connected.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58When I look at Turkey's politics and politicians,
0:02:58 > 0:02:59then yes, the distance is enormous.
0:02:59 > 0:03:03I want to dig inside the civil society that you see in Turkey today
0:03:03 > 0:03:06in a minute, but I want to begin by focusing on perspectives
0:03:06 > 0:03:09between Europe and Turkey today and the degree to which there is,
0:03:09 > 0:03:11frankly, a complete lack of understanding.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Do you think there is mutual misunderstanding, both ways?
0:03:14 > 0:03:16The journey of Turkey's EU membership I think has been
0:03:16 > 0:03:18so important and there are several turning points,
0:03:18 > 0:03:19misunderstandings, and mistakes.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23Turkey no doubt is a very complicated country,
0:03:23 > 0:03:29very multilayered.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Sometimes European observers say they find it difficult to understand
0:03:32 > 0:03:37Turkey.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Many Turks feel the same way about their own country.
0:03:40 > 0:03:48But that said, I think we need to remember there was a time when it
0:03:48 > 0:03:51seemed almost possible that Turkey was going to become a member
0:03:51 > 0:03:54of the EU, around 2005, 2006.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Almost a historical moment, and that moment is lost now.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59I remember that moment very well because actually,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02as it happens, I was based in Brussels for the BBC,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04following every move in the Turkey-EU relationship,
0:04:04 > 0:04:08as they sought to get to a point where membership negotiations
0:04:08 > 0:04:15would become real and meaningful, but here we are, as you say,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19a dozen years later and there is no prospect at all.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22In fact, I just want to read to you something that
0:04:22 > 0:04:24President Erdogan said just a few weeks ago.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27He said, "In Europe, things have become very serious
0:04:27 > 0:04:29in terms of the extent of Islamophobia.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32The EU is now closing its doors on Turkey and Turkey doesn't
0:04:32 > 0:04:35close its doors on anyone."
0:04:35 > 0:04:38But that's a narrative that suggests the currently pretty poisonous
0:04:38 > 0:04:41relationship between Europe and Turkey is the fault of Europe
0:04:41 > 0:04:47because Europe can't handle the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50We need to remember how the relationship has collapsed,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53going back ten years.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55I did criticise the Turkish Government for failing
0:04:55 > 0:04:57to fulfil EU criteria.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59We needed those reforms.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01Primarily in order to improve our immature and wobbly democracy.
0:05:01 > 0:05:08It was going to be good for Turkey's future and for Turkey's civil
0:05:08 > 0:05:11society as well, but I also criticised some of the politicians,
0:05:11 > 0:05:13particularly to make it more clear, populist politicians,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16within Europe, continental Europe, especially in France at the time
0:05:16 > 0:05:19of Sarkozy, who used Turkey at the time as the fear card
0:05:19 > 0:05:24in their own electoral campaigns.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26What they did was quite short-sighted and what we need
0:05:26 > 0:05:33to understand is ever since the EU became more distanced from Turkey,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36this directly worked into the hands of isolationists in Turkey,
0:05:36 > 0:05:41and who are those?
0:05:42 > 0:05:44They are the nationalists, they are the Islamists,
0:05:44 > 0:05:50and they are the ones who want a more authoritarian regime.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52So Turkey became more and more enclosed.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55It is very sad that years and years ago, public opinion,
0:05:55 > 0:05:57public support for EU membership in Turkey was incredibly high.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59But not now?
0:05:59 > 0:06:00Not now.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I mean, the Turkish Prime Minister, Mr Yildirim, just told our programme
0:06:03 > 0:06:07a couple of weeks ago, he said if there were a vote right
0:06:07 > 0:06:10now in Turkey, he has no doubt that the vote would be
0:06:10 > 0:06:12against membership of the European Union,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15and I'll come back to this point about you and your country.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17I mean, you do live in London.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19You are westernised, if that phrase means
0:06:19 > 0:06:22anything at all.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Of course, Turkey has always been seen as this country pulled
0:06:25 > 0:06:27and pushed between East and West, and the western element
0:06:27 > 0:06:30within Turkey does appear to have lost out.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32Well, the Government officials are saying that the public opinion
0:06:32 > 0:06:36right now is quite negative.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Yes, but that's also not unrelated to the fact that constantly
0:06:39 > 0:06:41the government itself is producing this anti-Western rhetoric
0:06:41 > 0:06:44and they're talking about joining the Shanghai pact, walking
0:06:44 > 0:06:46in the opposite direction with Kurdistan, China and Russia,
0:06:46 > 0:06:55and surely that is the right place to be for a country with such a poor
0:06:55 > 0:06:57record of human rights violations, human rights and freedom of speech.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01I personally never want to see Turkey walking in that direction.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03I want Turkey sharing the same values that matters
0:07:03 > 0:07:12so much in Europe.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14We have such a long history together.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17I am not only talking about financial, economic ties,
0:07:17 > 0:07:26not only political ties, but also cultural ties that go
0:07:26 > 0:07:28all the way back to the Ottoman Empire.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31With regards to identity, it is a big issue in Turkey
0:07:31 > 0:07:35and I wish we could see being in the middle of East and West
0:07:35 > 0:07:39as a source of richness instead of as something to get rid of.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42I wish we could see that diversity is a treasure in itself.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44I have always believed in multiple belongings.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Yes, I am an Istanbulite, but I am also a Londoner.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51There are so many elements in my soul, from the Middle East,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54I am attached to the Asian, the Mediterranean, the Balkans.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57I am a European by choice and I like to believe that I am
0:07:57 > 0:08:03a world citizen.
0:08:03 > 0:08:04Why not have multiple belongings?
0:08:04 > 0:08:07We do not have to be narrowed down to a singular,
0:08:07 > 0:08:08monolithic identity politics.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Well, it is fascinating you put it that way,
0:08:11 > 0:08:15and you put me in mind of the recent novel you wrote which was published
0:08:15 > 0:08:18last year, Three Daughters of Eve, which is about a Turkish woman,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Peri, who is living in Istanbul but still struggling to quite come
0:08:21 > 0:08:24to terms with her complicated past which involved being educated
0:08:24 > 0:08:26in the West, questions about her identity, relationship
0:08:26 > 0:08:42to living in a Muslim country, albeit in Istanbul,
0:08:42 > 0:08:45which is obviously in many ways the most liberal city in Turkey.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48It strikes me that you are Peri, in a way.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51There are a lot of issues that she is wrestling
0:08:51 > 0:08:54with and uncertainties and other easiness that she has that you have.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56In my recent novel, there are three women
0:08:56 > 0:08:57characters, female characters.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59All of them come from Muslim backgrounds but there
0:09:00 > 0:09:02are relationships with identity, religion is completely different.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04So we have Shirin, who is an Iranian British student,
0:09:05 > 0:09:06and she is the child of exiled parents.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10She is an atheist.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12She no longer has any faith at all.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13Absolutely.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16She is an atheist and she's very critical of all religions,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18but in particular of Islam, because of the mistreatment
0:09:18 > 0:09:20of women.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23We have Mona, who is Egyptian American, who wears
0:09:23 > 0:09:25a headscarf and is a practising Muslim.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Who has a belief.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30But I am really interested in Peri.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Because it seems to me, if I may, that when you talk
0:09:33 > 0:09:36about your Istanbul and your belief that in Turkey, yes,
0:09:36 > 0:09:39there can be this third way, this wonderful synthesis of East
0:09:39 > 0:09:42and West, you speak obviously for yourself and for a tranche
0:09:42 > 0:09:44of Turkish frankly progressive liberal and perhaps not very
0:09:44 > 0:09:46representative opinion, perhaps embodied by fictional
0:09:46 > 0:09:49characters like Peri as well, but do you really feel that you tap
0:09:50 > 0:09:55into the feelings of many ordinary Turks today?
0:09:55 > 0:09:58I think it goes beyond Turkey, but Turkey is an interesting
0:09:58 > 0:10:00platform in that regard because of our many,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03many confusions.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06We are a very confused nation about our identity,
0:10:06 > 0:10:08where we stand.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11So it is not a coincidence that I brought these girls together.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13They jokingly call themselves the sinner, the believer,
0:10:13 > 0:10:22and the confused.
0:10:22 > 0:10:23And you are right.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26I particularly wanted to follow the confused and write
0:10:26 > 0:10:28about the confusions of our times.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30I'm intrigued by this debate on faith.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Is there another path?
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Is there another way of talking about these issues,
0:10:35 > 0:10:44a more secularist approach?
0:10:44 > 0:10:46A nonreligious way of talking about faith, is that possible?
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Maybe to put it more bluntly, I'm intrigued by faith but I do know
0:10:50 > 0:10:53that faith without doubt is a dogma and dogmas
0:10:53 > 0:10:53are very, very dangerous.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57But I guess my point is what you have just said
0:10:57 > 0:11:00is fascinating and it is nuanced, and is there any room for nuance
0:11:00 > 0:11:08in Turkey today?
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Because look at the way Mr Erdogan handles politics.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13He referred to himself once, rather famously, as a black Turk.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16The idea that there is now this popularisation in Turkey
0:11:16 > 0:11:19between the white Turks, who he would regard as the elite,
0:11:19 > 0:11:20unrepresentative perhaps, associations with the military
0:11:21 > 0:11:23and the state in the past, and then what he identifies
0:11:23 > 0:11:26as the black Turks, who as the masses, the people
0:11:26 > 0:11:29who have faith, have religion, and frankly follow him.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32That is not a nuanced view of where Turkey is today
0:11:32 > 0:11:36but it is Erdogan's view and Erdogan is by so far the dominant player
0:11:36 > 0:11:46and character in Turkey's story today.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48Populism in general thrives upon dualities and populist
0:11:48 > 0:11:50demagogues like the distinction between us versus them.
0:11:50 > 0:11:51They're creating us versus them.
0:11:51 > 0:11:52They benefit from that.
0:11:52 > 0:12:00I think it is the artist's, it is the writer's job to introduce
0:12:00 > 0:12:04more nuance and hopefully to bring forth a more nuanced way of looking
0:12:04 > 0:12:06at things, but you are definitely right.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10Given the state of things in Turkey today, we have to bear in mind that
0:12:10 > 0:12:12Turkey has become the world's biggest jailer of journalists.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Journalism is the most difficult profession in Turkey today.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17And every poet, every writer, every journalist, every academic
0:12:17 > 0:12:19in Turkey knows that because of a poem,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22because of an article, a novel, or even a tweet,
0:12:22 > 0:12:35we can get into trouble so easily.
0:12:35 > 0:12:36We can be sued.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38We can be almost lynched in social media.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41We can be put on trial, may be detained or exiled or imprisoned.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45So what I am trying to say is when we write, we have this
0:12:45 > 0:12:47knowledge in the back of our minds.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49As a result, there is a lot of self-censorship,
0:12:50 > 0:12:52which is a subject we find very difficult to talk
0:12:52 > 0:12:54about because it is embarrassing.
0:12:54 > 0:12:55Do you self censor?
0:12:55 > 0:12:57But I think we need to face it.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Well, I am asking you face it.
0:12:59 > 0:13:00Absolutely, and I am facing it.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04I think when I write fiction I never self censor not because of any other
0:13:04 > 0:13:07thing but because the art of storytelling guides me
0:13:07 > 0:13:11and when I am inside a novel I stay inside the novel for weeks
0:13:11 > 0:13:12and months, sometimes over a year.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14And those characters become my reality.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16And I forget the so-called real world.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20Only when I hand it to my editor I become very anxious and by then
0:13:20 > 0:13:26it is too late.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29And how can you say that, Elif Shafak, when you more than most
0:13:29 > 0:13:32know the repercussions of writing things that cross a line.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35In 2006, the Bastard of Istanbul was your novel which landed
0:13:35 > 0:13:37you in court.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40For a while it seemed you were going to be convicted
0:13:40 > 0:13:42of crimes under Article 301, which essentially was accusing
0:13:42 > 0:13:45you of insulting Turkishness because of the way you wrote
0:13:45 > 0:13:47about the mass killing of Armenians, what many call
0:13:47 > 0:13:52the Armenian genocide?
0:13:52 > 0:13:59Yes, in my novel the Bastard of Istanbul, I wrote the story
0:13:59 > 0:14:01of an Armenian American family and a Turkish family
0:14:01 > 0:14:05and it is a book that uses the word genocide for what happened in 1915
0:14:05 > 0:14:08and for that I was accused of insulting Turkishness under
0:14:08 > 0:14:11article 301, even though nobody knows what that exactly means.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16What is insulting Turkishness?
0:14:16 > 0:14:21It is open to misinterpretation.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24And it was a very unsettling, unnerving time for me.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28I had to live with a bodyguard for a year and a half and the trial
0:14:28 > 0:14:34itself was quite negative.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37But that's a memory you can't get rid of.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40Saying so frankly that you were unsettled, you were
0:14:40 > 0:14:43unnerved, lived for a year and a half with a bodyguard, when you
0:14:43 > 0:14:47write your books today, and I know you have just embarked on another
0:14:47 > 0:14:50novel, surely you are carrying that in your consciousness and it does
0:14:50 > 0:14:54impact the way you write, does it not?
0:14:54 > 0:14:57I think it took me a long time to heal that psychological
0:14:57 > 0:14:58turbulence in my soul.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00Of course, I was affected by that.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03But at the same time, when the book came out in
0:15:03 > 0:15:05Turkey, I was experiencing the trial and so forth,
0:15:05 > 0:15:06from the readers the
0:15:07 > 0:15:08feedback, the warmth, was amazing.
0:15:08 > 0:15:09Particularly women readers.
0:15:09 > 0:15:10Women readers of all backgrounds, Turkish,
0:15:10 > 0:15:21Kurdish, Jewish, Armenian, their words, it was just amazing.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24It showed me one thing.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26That words matter in Turkey.
0:15:26 > 0:15:27Stories matter.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30And your connection as a writer with readers is very important.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33That is why I always say being a Turkish
0:15:33 > 0:15:36writer is just like being kissed on the one cheek by readers
0:15:36 > 0:15:38and being slapped on the other cheek by the
0:15:38 > 0:15:41system exactly at the same time.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43But let me ask you this.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45If you want to make a difference in Turkey today,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48an you identify with the writers, the journalists, the
0:15:48 > 0:15:50progressives, the academics, let's not forget thousands of those have
0:15:50 > 0:15:52lost their jos and many been arrested since
0:15:52 > 0:15:54the most recent round of
0:15:54 > 0:16:01measures taken in the state of emergency.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05If you self identify with this group in Turkey, how do you
0:16:05 > 0:16:07make that voice, the let's call it progressive, liberal voice,
0:16:07 > 0:16:10resonate and count across the country, because there's no
0:16:10 > 0:16:12doubt the AKP know how to organise and
0:16:12 > 0:16:14deliver politically, and one could also say
0:16:14 > 0:16:16that the military and everything that goes with the
0:16:16 > 0:16:18Turkish military, they know how to organise.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21But it seems to me that the liberals and progressives,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24though they may be quite substantial number, they don't really organise
0:16:24 > 0:16:26or have a coherent vision for the country.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30Yes, but first of all I am so glad you mentioned academics in
0:16:30 > 0:16:31addition to journalists, writers, who are unfortunately...
0:16:31 > 0:16:33Who have lost their freedoms today.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36But the position of the academics is also so
0:16:36 > 0:16:36important.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37Thousands of them have been sacked.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40We need to understand that when you are dismissed as an
0:16:40 > 0:16:43academic and Turkey, your prospects of finding another
0:16:43 > 0:16:45job at another university is almost nil.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47These people are almost left without money, without any job, and
0:16:47 > 0:17:11completely unlawfully exact.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13So to be frank about it, the progressives,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15the liberals, they are too weak.
0:17:15 > 0:17:16They are not united.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18They don't have a coherent platform or vision and
0:17:18 > 0:17:22therefore, for all of the individual efforts of people such as yourself
0:17:22 > 0:17:25and many others, the voice doesn't resonate.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Yes, but there are so many important voices in Turkey today.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31As we are speaking, I am very sad to say,
0:17:31 > 0:17:35two academics are on hunger strike and it has been over 60 days.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37They have now passed a very critical threshold,
0:17:37 > 0:17:38which is life-threatening medical for them.
0:17:39 > 0:17:40There are people trying to dissent, criticise,
0:17:40 > 0:17:43express their sorrow or position sometimes at the expense of their
0:17:44 > 0:17:44lives.
0:17:44 > 0:17:45You are right.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47The opposition in Turkey, the other half, is quite
0:17:47 > 0:17:55fragmented, disorganised, but let us not also
0:17:55 > 0:17:56forget what happened in
0:17:56 > 0:17:56this referendum.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59I would like to take a closer look at it.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01In the run-up to the referendum, we have
0:18:01 > 0:18:03seen a very unfair campaign.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05Almost all of the state's resources, almost
0:18:05 > 0:18:08all of the media outlets were is devoted to one side of the
0:18:08 > 0:18:16referendum, which is the yes vote, pro Erdogan.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18Essentially to change the constitution to the
0:18:18 > 0:18:21presidency, not necessarily Mr Erdogan, because he won't be there
0:18:21 > 0:18:23forever, but to give the presidency much more power.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Yes, but it was symbolised in him, certainly.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30What I am trying to say is the other side of the campaign, the no voice,
0:18:30 > 0:18:32was almost given no free space, and just the opposite.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35People who dared to say no were either targeted,
0:18:35 > 0:18:36slandered, stigmatised, sometimes physically
0:18:36 > 0:18:37or verbally assaulted or
0:18:37 > 0:18:45lost their jobs.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48So within this climate of intimidation, we went to
0:18:48 > 0:18:48this referendum.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52But let's put all of this on the side and look at the
0:18:52 > 0:18:53picture we have in hand.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55It is remarkable that despite the intimidation half
0:18:55 > 0:18:57of the Turkish society still said no.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59And that says something about the strength...
0:18:59 > 0:19:04Well, just under half.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07The nature of democracy is that those who get the
0:19:07 > 0:19:11most votes tend to win and obviously in this case it was close but
0:19:11 > 0:19:12Erdogan's side won that argument.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15It seems to me you have got to address the
0:19:15 > 0:19:19most basic fact of all which is that since 2003, Mr Erdogan and his
0:19:19 > 0:19:21colleagues in the AKP have time and again
0:19:21 > 0:19:22proven themselves to be the
0:19:22 > 0:19:24most popular force in Turkish politics.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26You may talk about his authoritarianism, his oppressive
0:19:26 > 0:19:29approach to free speech in the media, but he wins elections,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32repeatedly, and if you travel perhaps to rural Antolia, you
0:19:32 > 0:19:37will see just how popular the man is.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40The distinction between the countryside and urban areas is not
0:19:40 > 0:19:45only happening in Turkey.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Across Europe we have seen similar patterns.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Even in Austria, we have seen more far right being supported
0:19:50 > 0:19:56across the countryside and in urban areas more liberal voices voting
0:19:56 > 0:19:56pro-liberal voices.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59So it is a pattern that we see over and over
0:19:59 > 0:20:00again.
0:20:00 > 0:20:05There is a pattern.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07You could argue that the sorts of things we
0:20:08 > 0:20:11see in Turkey today could be linked to the political realities of Russia
0:20:11 > 0:20:14today, where Putin is in the ascendant.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17You could perhaps look at a country like Egypt, where 2011
0:20:17 > 0:20:20brought the Arab Spring and so many pro-democracy voices onto the
0:20:20 > 0:20:22streets in Cairo, but where is Egypt today?
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Those liberal, secular, pro-democracy voices are nowhere.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27But here is what I think.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Being popular or getting the most of the
0:20:29 > 0:20:32votes, let's say, by numbers, isn't enough to gain legitimacy.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34It is not enough to make a system a democracy.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And that is the biggest mistake the AKP elite
0:20:37 > 0:20:38have been making over and
0:20:38 > 0:20:39over throughout the years.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42In short, what they are thinking is if we have
0:20:42 > 0:20:46the ballot box, this is democracy, is what they are saying, and I am
0:20:46 > 0:20:48saying no because the ballot box is only one
0:20:48 > 0:20:50of the requirements for a
0:20:50 > 0:20:50proper democracy.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53In addition to the ballot box, you need other things.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55You need rule of law, separation of powers,
0:20:55 > 0:20:57checks and balances, definitely a free media, definitely
0:20:57 > 0:20:59an independent academia, you need women's rights,
0:20:59 > 0:21:00you need LGBT rights.
0:21:09 > 0:21:10Together with all these
0:21:10 > 0:21:18components, you can have a proper, pluralistic, functioning democracy.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Now, if you don't have any of those other
0:21:21 > 0:21:22components and only have the
0:21:22 > 0:21:27ballot box, that system cannot be called a democracy.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29It can only be a majoritarianism at best.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31At worst, it will go towards authoritarianism.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34What we have lost in Turkey is the culture of code systems.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36What we have lost is the understanding that
0:21:36 > 0:21:39we can have diversity and unity at the same time.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43We can have shared values.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Rather than that, it has always been half of the society
0:21:46 > 0:21:48pitted against the other half.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50And this is the rhetoric that Mr Erdogan
0:21:50 > 0:21:51used again and again.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54And that kind of dualism is not healthy for any
0:21:54 > 0:21:54society.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58And, yes, I think there is a lot of depression in Turkey at the
0:21:58 > 0:22:01moment.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Would you like to escape from that depression by ceasing to
0:22:04 > 0:22:06write about Turkey and writing about other things?
0:22:06 > 0:22:08You have just started a new novel.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Is that going to be set in Turkey?
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Frankly, I think if you are a writer from countries such as
0:22:14 > 0:22:16Turkey, Nigeria, Pakistan, Egypt, from places that have either wobbly
0:22:16 > 0:22:19or no democracies, if you happen to be
0:22:19 > 0:22:20a novelist from such a
0:22:20 > 0:22:23background, you do not have the luxury of being able to...
0:22:23 > 0:22:26You do not have the luxury of being able to
0:22:26 > 0:22:27say, "I close my door.
0:22:27 > 0:22:34I am just going to live in my own bubble."
0:22:34 > 0:22:37What I like to do as a writer is to ask
0:22:37 > 0:22:37questions.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39Difficult questions about difficult issues, political taboos,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42sexual taboos, cultural taboos, just to say, "Why is it like that?
0:22:42 > 0:22:43Let's talk about this."
0:22:44 > 0:22:46And then I like to leave the answers to
0:22:46 > 0:22:49the readers.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52And in a word, if you continue to think like that and
0:22:52 > 0:22:56write like that, you will be able to write in London, but you won't be
0:22:56 > 0:22:58able to write in Turkey.
0:22:58 > 0:22:59Does that bother you?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01Yes, it does bother me, of course.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05I mean, it makes me sad, this feeling of sorrow, melancholy I
0:23:05 > 0:23:06think just follows you.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08Istanbul is a city that you can't just leave
0:23:08 > 0:23:08behind.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12You carry Istanbul with you in your soul, in your writing.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14On the other hand, interestingly, writing in English, I have
0:23:14 > 0:23:15started...
0:23:15 > 0:23:18I have been writing both in Turkish and in English and that
0:23:18 > 0:23:21commune between the two languages has also been an interesting
0:23:21 > 0:23:22experience for me.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25I realise over time, if there is humour in my work,
0:23:25 > 0:23:29satire, irony, I find it much easier to express that in English, whereas
0:23:29 > 0:23:31melancholy, sorrow, I find it easier to express in Turkish.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34But one other thing I noticed is by writing in
0:23:34 > 0:23:38English, maybe taking a step back and looking at Turkey from that
0:23:38 > 0:23:41cognitive distance, maybe I can see things a bit more closely when I
0:23:41 > 0:23:44write in English, paradoxically, because there is no baggage, there
0:23:44 > 0:23:55is no cultural baggage.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59It frees me from my anxieties and I feel maybe
0:23:59 > 0:24:05more free to write whatever I want to write at that moment in time.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08Elif Shafak, we must end there, but thank you so much
0:24:08 > 0:24:09for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Thank you.
0:24:10 > 0:24:11It is a pleasure.
0:24:11 > 0:24:21Thank you very much indeed.