0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HardTalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Every day Venezuela seems to get one step closer to economic
0:00:14 > 0:00:16and political chaos.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Mass anti-government protests have swept the country
0:00:18 > 0:00:26for the past month.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28Close to 40 people have been killed in clashes
0:00:28 > 0:00:29with President Maduro's Armed Forces.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32The shops are short of food, hospitals low on medicine,
0:00:32 > 0:00:41something it seems, has got to give.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44My guest is Julio Borges, Speaker of the opposition-controlled
0:00:44 > 0:00:46National Assembly, is the Chavista socialist revolution dying
0:00:46 > 0:00:48on its feet?
0:01:11 > 0:01:17Julio Borges is in Caracas, welcome to HardTalk.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Thank you, Stephen.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24We have seen more than 40 days of mass protests on the streets
0:01:24 > 0:01:27and we see the violent clashes between protesters and the armed
0:01:27 > 0:01:29enforcers of President Maduro and we see the casualties,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33many injured and around 40 people, many of them very young, killed.
0:01:33 > 0:01:42How long can this go on?
0:01:42 > 0:01:46Well, listen, it is not only 45 days, we have been fighting for 18
0:01:46 > 0:01:52years and 45 days.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55And we are fighting for democracy in Venezuela and that is the reason
0:01:55 > 0:02:01people are on the streets.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04They are making huge demonstrations, not only in Caracas,
0:02:04 > 0:02:05but all over Venezuela.
0:02:05 > 0:02:06Unfortunately, the answer from the government
0:02:06 > 0:02:09has been repression.
0:02:09 > 0:02:17Yesterday, two people were killed, very young, 16 years and 33 years.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Every day we have the same routine of repression and violence
0:02:20 > 0:02:23and it is very important for you to know that we are fighting
0:02:23 > 0:02:27in the streets, just for democracy, just for trying to get a Democratic
0:02:27 > 0:02:34pass in order to get free elections in Venezuela.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Free elections that are not planned in our constitutions,
0:02:36 > 0:02:40but Maduro denies the right to the people to vote in elections,
0:02:40 > 0:02:43so we have only the streets as a space to fight for our rights
0:02:43 > 0:02:48and democratic rights in Venezuela.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51As a responsible political leader and you are the President
0:02:51 > 0:02:53of the National Assembly, you're one of the leaders
0:02:53 > 0:02:56of the Justice First party, do you not have a responsibility
0:02:57 > 0:03:00at some point, when you look at the bloodshed and you point out,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03many of the people who have lost their lives are students,
0:03:03 > 0:03:04they are young people.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Do you not have a responsibility to say to the protesters,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10in your own party and far beyond your own party,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13enough is enough?
0:03:13 > 0:03:15The bloodshed, the cost, it is too high?
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Yes, but our responsibility is to bring peace, democracy
0:03:18 > 0:03:26and freedom to Venezuela.
0:03:26 > 0:03:32We are living in a Venezuela which is like a bad copy of Cuba.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36There are no rights in Venezuela, there is no food, there is no
0:03:36 > 0:03:38medicines, there is no opportunities.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Thousands and thousands of young people are leaving Venezuela
0:03:41 > 0:03:46in order to look for a future in other countries.
0:03:46 > 0:04:00So, it is not only a political conversation in Venezuela,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03it is a vital, existential, based on values, confrontation
0:04:03 > 0:04:04in Venezuela.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07If you see the people who are demonstrating
0:04:07 > 0:04:09in the streets, we see every kind of people,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11young people, old people, politicians, social activists,
0:04:11 > 0:04:12unemployed people.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16So it's all Venezuelan people against Maduro.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17It's not only a political confrontation.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21Do you really think that these protests are going to get Maduro
0:04:21 > 0:04:21out of power?
0:04:21 > 0:04:25That is the call from the protesters, he has got to go,
0:04:25 > 0:04:33they say, but there is absolutely no sign of him going anywhere.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35Well, we are fighting for some values.
0:04:35 > 0:04:43We have no time and no other way to fight for.
0:04:43 > 0:04:51Freedom, justice, democracy - you have to remember,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54Steve, that the only thing they have is ordering the coup d'etat
0:04:54 > 0:04:57that Maduro gave to the Parliament.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00They almost closed all the Parliament, and the Venezuelan
0:05:00 > 0:05:03people went to the streets in order to defend democracy and to defend
0:05:03 > 0:05:06separation of powers, and to defend their rights to vote
0:05:06 > 0:05:09and to defend their rights to have a free economy.
0:05:09 > 0:05:14So we have a very deep fight in Venezuela, and when you face
0:05:14 > 0:05:17a government that has no intention to open for a democratic agenda,
0:05:17 > 0:05:20so, for Venezuelan people, there is no other way,
0:05:20 > 0:05:26than to fight in the streets.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28And people are willing, and with emotion, to fight
0:05:28 > 0:05:29for their countries.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31But Venezuelans also have a sense of history,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34and they know that in 2014, very soon after Maduro came
0:05:34 > 0:05:37to power, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets
0:05:37 > 0:05:40to try and get him out, claiming that that
0:05:40 > 0:05:42election was illegitimate.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47He faced down the protesters and he won that battle.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51And then we can fast-forward to last year,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54when you and many colleagues demanded a recall election.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57And again, you believed that you could bring Maduro to his knees.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01But he outlasted you again, and I would put it to you that there
0:06:01 > 0:06:04is every sign this time around that Maduro is going to
0:06:04 > 0:06:05outlast you yet again.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08Yeah, but we are taking some good advantage.
0:06:08 > 0:06:17The international community has a very clear and very needed view
0:06:17 > 0:06:21about Maduro as a dictatorship.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25Venezuelan people have a very strong position.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29It's not a minority, but a huge majority, almost 80%,
0:06:29 > 0:06:3785% of the people, who are completely
0:06:37 > 0:06:41sure that Maduro will have to be out of power, because he did a coup
0:06:41 > 0:06:42d'etat in Venezuela.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Julio Borges, you know that in democracies,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47you do not run governments by opinion poll, you run them
0:06:47 > 0:06:48by elections.
0:06:48 > 0:06:53And let us not forget that Nicolas Maduro,
0:06:53 > 0:06:58whether you like it or not, he has an elected mandate.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00He won the presidential election after Hugo Chavez died
0:07:01 > 0:07:02at the end of 2013.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04He is due to be, according to his mandate, President
0:07:05 > 0:07:07of Venezuela until the very end of 2018.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09That is the mandate.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Yes - no, but listen.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15You have to rule the country by one constitution,
0:07:15 > 0:07:22and the constitution said that last year we had to have governors'
0:07:22 > 0:07:29elections, and Maduro didn't want to make it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32We should have a recall referendum, and Maduro stopped it.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34This year, we should have had the regional elections
0:07:34 > 0:07:35and Maduro stopped them.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38So, it cannot be one constitution for Maduro and one constitution
0:07:38 > 0:07:41for the Venezuelan people.
0:07:41 > 0:07:42That's it, the core of the problem.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Right now in Venezuela, we have no constitution
0:07:46 > 0:07:49at all, and we only have the will of Maduro,
0:07:49 > 0:07:50and he decides whether we have elections
0:07:51 > 0:07:52or not in Venezuela.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57This is not fair, it is not democracy, and we are fighting
0:07:57 > 0:08:00precisely, Steve, for having a democratic path,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02which is elections in Venezuela.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05So we are fighting for trying to bring the constitution out
0:08:05 > 0:08:06for our political life.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08We are trying to fight within the constitution.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10This is a huge difference.
0:08:10 > 0:08:16We are calling for democracy, Maduro is calling for violence.
0:08:16 > 0:08:24Well, Maduro says that you, in particular, and he identified
0:08:24 > 0:08:28you as an individual, Julio Borges, he said that you are the coup
0:08:28 > 0:08:30master, and what you really want is a coup.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34And I have to say, looking at some of your comments
0:08:34 > 0:08:37of late, one of your comments saying it is time for the men in green,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40that is the armed forces, to, quote, break their silence.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43Are you suggesting, implicitly, that you want to see the security
0:08:43 > 0:08:45forces, in particular the army of Venezuela,
0:08:45 > 0:08:50refuse to follow orders?
0:08:50 > 0:08:55Well, we are calling to the army force in Venezuela
0:08:55 > 0:08:57to precisely help Venezuelan people, not opposition,
0:08:57 > 0:08:59to help Venezuelan people to have the rule
0:08:59 > 0:09:04of constitution and democracy in Venezuela.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08Let me tell you again...
0:09:08 > 0:09:13Well, forgive me, but the armed forces are supposed to follow
0:09:13 > 0:09:14the orders of the commander in chief,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16the President of the country,
0:09:16 > 0:09:21I do not see how it is being constitutional to imply that
0:09:21 > 0:09:24you want to see all of the armed forces of Venezuela
0:09:24 > 0:09:27mutiny, which appears to be what you are suggesting to happen.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29No, because there is a huge difference, Steve,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32between a chief commander which is acting as the head
0:09:32 > 0:09:35of the Venezuelan government, with Maduro,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39who is acting and delivering orders to the armed forces as the head
0:09:39 > 0:09:41of a political party.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44What we don't want is an Army force with political colours,
0:09:44 > 0:09:46which is part or belongs to a political party.
0:09:46 > 0:09:53That's the real problem.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56We want independent institutional and democratic army force.
0:09:56 > 0:10:03That's the core of the problem.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07We are calling for an army force, not for opposition.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09We are calling for an army force to respond
0:10:09 > 0:10:11to democratic institutions in Venezuela, not political parties.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14The one who has colour with political parties has been
0:10:14 > 0:10:14Maduro.
0:10:14 > 0:10:15All right.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19A very simple question for you, yes or no.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Are you asking for the armed forces on the streets,
0:10:23 > 0:10:27policing the demonstrations, and of course sometimes opening
0:10:27 > 0:10:30fire, we have seen that,
0:10:30 > 0:10:33are you asking those armed forces to refuse to follow orders?
0:10:33 > 0:10:33Absolutely.
0:10:33 > 0:10:43I think that to fight against human rights,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46it has to be called, in order to operate in the consciousness
0:10:46 > 0:10:49of each guardian that it's breaking the human rights
0:10:49 > 0:10:51of the Venezuelans.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54And there is no way that you, Steve,
0:10:54 > 0:10:57can justify that an undemocratic government can make such
0:10:57 > 0:11:02a demonstration of violence against the people, when people
0:11:02 > 0:11:05are demonstrating in a very pacific way, just for asking
0:11:05 > 0:11:08for elections in Venezuela.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12There is no proportion of people, a people who is young people
0:11:12 > 0:11:15demonstrating for a peaceful solution,
0:11:15 > 0:11:17which is owed, and repression from the government,
0:11:17 > 0:11:18against their human rights.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22Even putting people under the jurisdiction of the military
0:11:22 > 0:11:28which is against the constitution, is against human rights.
0:11:28 > 0:11:31So we have to ask for consciousness, for fighting for our human rights
0:11:31 > 0:11:33in Venezuela, and not for repression.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37Well, the problem you have is that you have a track record
0:11:37 > 0:11:40and of course Maduro and the people in the government constantly
0:11:40 > 0:11:40refer to it.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44You're known as someone who supported the attempted military
0:11:44 > 0:11:47coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002, and we know from leaks in Wikipedia
0:11:47 > 0:11:50that appeared in the years afterwards, that your party had very
0:11:50 > 0:11:54close ties to the United States, and that there appeared to be
0:11:54 > 0:11:57hundreds of thousands, if not millions of US dollars that
0:11:57 > 0:11:59were funnelled into your party from NGOs that were funded
0:12:00 > 0:12:02by the United States.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05So there are many people in the regime who say that
0:12:06 > 0:12:08you are nothing more than an agent of the United States,
0:12:08 > 0:12:10the imperial power.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13That's propaganda, and
0:12:13 > 0:12:17this is very easy to demonstrate, Steve.
0:12:17 > 0:12:22Let's go to an election and let the people decide if I am
0:12:22 > 0:12:25an agent of the imperial power, or I represent some
0:12:25 > 0:12:27leadership in Venezuela.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31So it's very easy to demonstrate that you have to provide people
0:12:31 > 0:12:39the opportunity through the vote to decide
0:12:39 > 0:12:41which future they want in Venezuela, and I'm absolutely sure
0:12:41 > 0:12:46that the political movement that we have created,
0:12:46 > 0:12:55with so many young leaders in Venezuela, is right now
0:12:55 > 0:12:57the choice, the future, to decide what Venezuela wants,
0:12:58 > 0:13:03for a modern Venezuela.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05So it's very easy.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Let the people vote and let the people decide
0:13:08 > 0:13:09which future they want.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11The person who is refusing that is Maduro.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14On May the 5th, I believe, you had a meeting with
0:13:14 > 0:13:17Vice President Mike Pence and I think you also met
0:13:17 > 0:13:21with the national security adviser HR McMaster.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Did you ask them for American help, and specifically
0:13:23 > 0:13:26did you ask them to go beyond targeted sanctions
0:13:26 > 0:13:28on individuals and impose economic sanctions on Venezuela has a whole?
0:13:28 > 0:13:31Not at all.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32Impossible.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35We are building, in North America, and mainly in Latin America,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38a kind of group or team of countries which can help Venezuela
0:13:38 > 0:13:47in this crisis.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50We have talked with the President of Panama, we have talked
0:13:50 > 0:13:52with the President of Peru, Argentina, Brazil, Chile,
0:13:52 > 0:13:55Mexico and all of them are really worried about Venezuela
0:13:55 > 0:13:57for one reason - Venezuela is not only
0:13:57 > 0:14:00a local problem, right now, it is a regional problem
0:14:00 > 0:14:03and we are asking for the help of the community, of
0:14:03 > 0:14:07the Latin American community, in order to try and bring and build
0:14:07 > 0:14:17a democratic agenda right here in Venezuela and the chief
0:14:17 > 0:14:19aim of this agenda is letting people vote.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23This is very clear, there is no other way of letting people vote
0:14:23 > 0:14:24in order to build a solution.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27The thing is, you have talked throughout this interview as though
0:14:27 > 0:14:30the opposition is united, the trouble is that the opposition
0:14:30 > 0:14:33is nowhere near united, there are 21 different opposition
0:14:33 > 0:14:35parties, you have a history of being divided, you individually
0:14:35 > 0:14:37have had fights with other opposition leaders, frankly,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40often times, the Venezuelan opposition, has been fighting
0:14:40 > 0:14:47amongst itself like rats in a sack.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50So why would the outside world or indeed the Venezuelan people take
0:14:50 > 0:14:55seriously this proposition that if you were to get an election
0:14:55 > 0:14:59and a few in the short-term opposition alliance against Maduro
0:14:59 > 0:15:02were to win, that you could actually govern coherently,
0:15:02 > 0:15:03because you're so disunited?
0:15:03 > 0:15:13Well, sorry, but that is not true, Steve.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17I am the President of the Parliament and the President of the party
0:15:17 > 0:15:20and I am the head of a Coalition, which has 14 political parties
0:15:20 > 0:15:21within the Coalition.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24What we have realised is unity, that is something we are very
0:15:24 > 0:15:34proud of that.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37There is no election in Venezuela in which we have presented two
0:15:37 > 0:15:39candidates, only one candidate from the opposition,
0:15:39 > 0:15:41versus one candidate from the government.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43We have only our unique platform.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47We have only one message in the campaigns, we have a system
0:15:47 > 0:15:50of rule for election by referendum and the priority of candidates.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52We have a strong position.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54I understand that you only put up one candidate against Maduro
0:15:55 > 0:15:58and you insisted you have one message which is that there must be
0:15:58 > 0:16:01elections and Maduro must go, but that is not good enough.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03You have been telling me that the Venezuelan people
0:16:04 > 0:16:07are suffering, the shops are empty, the hospitals have no drugs,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09the economic system is broken and yet when I look
0:16:09 > 0:16:12at what you are putting forward, you're not telling the Venezuelan
0:16:12 > 0:16:20people how you would solve the crisis they are living through.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24You do not have a coherent platform and many of your parties have very
0:16:24 > 0:16:27different visions of what you would do with the Chavista socialist
0:16:27 > 0:16:27system.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32Listen, Steve, the way we are living in Venezuela is a tragedy.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36So, it is not that we are facing a bad government, a regular bad
0:16:36 > 0:16:49government as you would have in any country.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52We are living in a real tragedy, people are dying
0:16:52 > 0:16:55because they are hungry, people are dying because they have
0:16:55 > 0:16:57no medicines, people are in the streets eating
0:16:57 > 0:17:01from the garbage and we are living in what is one of the most richest
0:17:01 > 0:17:05countries in the world.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07So, what we have in Venezuela is a pre-ideological problem.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10We have to fight not for very fancy public policies,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13we have to fight for a government who gives us democracy,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16a government that has checks and balance, the rule of law,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20and in all this, we are very united, not only as an opposition,
0:17:20 > 0:17:22but as a people, as Venezuela.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25There is no problem with that, because we are living
0:17:25 > 0:17:27in such a tragedy.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30But with the greatest of respect, I have just, as you know,
0:17:30 > 0:17:34been in Venezuela and I have spoken to a lot of people in different
0:17:34 > 0:17:42parts of the country, and in different economic
0:17:42 > 0:17:45situations, from the rather posh suburb where you happen to live,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49to some of the poorest slums where some of the most loyal
0:17:49 > 0:17:49die-hard Chavistas lives.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53The impression I get is that many people are very alienated
0:17:53 > 0:17:55from Maduro, but there is still a hard core of support
0:17:56 > 0:18:04for Chavismo, for the idea of a socialist revolution
0:18:04 > 0:18:09and if you get rid of Maduro, it seems to me that there is a real
0:18:09 > 0:18:11risk of civil strife, maybe full-scale civil
0:18:11 > 0:18:12war in Venezuela.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Are you prepared to run that risk?
0:18:14 > 0:18:19Well, I do not agree with that picture.
0:18:19 > 0:18:26First of all, Steve, Chavista live in the modern reaches,
0:18:26 > 0:18:33-- First of all, Steve, Chavista live in the mosdt riches,
0:18:33 > 0:18:38urbanisation and other portions of the city.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41I am not talking about the members of the government, I am talking
0:18:41 > 0:18:44about ordinary people, some of whom do believe that
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Hugo Chavez is the reason that they can afford some sort
0:18:47 > 0:18:50of an accommodation, have a job, have a better economic existence
0:18:50 > 0:18:53than they had when your class was in power in Venezuela
0:18:53 > 0:18:54in the 1980s and early 1990s.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56At that time, I was 20 years old.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58Sorry.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02But I can tell you something, these people, right now,
0:19:02 > 0:19:06they know that Maduro has destroyed what they praised for Chavez.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Right now, the Chavista and Maduro bases are only 10% or 12%
0:19:10 > 0:19:12of the population.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16And we know that we can have a future in the government
0:19:16 > 0:19:19and we can bring those people for a new Venezuela
0:19:19 > 0:19:24and a very united Venezuela.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27I do not see at all any problem or chance
0:19:27 > 0:19:33of confrontation, because there is no symmetrical proportions,
0:19:33 > 0:19:38because there is almost a very unanimous position against Maduro,
0:19:38 > 0:19:48we are talking 90% of the population is against Maduro.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51It is not half of the population, it's 90% of the population,
0:19:51 > 0:19:56so I do not see any risk of having a democratic path and having a very
0:19:56 > 0:20:00inclusive, you are right on that, a very inclusive speech and very
0:20:00 > 0:20:02inclusive policies in order to bring together
0:20:02 > 0:20:02a whole country.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Let me ask you a personal question, you have four young children,
0:20:06 > 0:20:08you know what is happening in your country today,
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I mean, one of the most high-profile opposition leaders,
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Leopoldo Lopez, after the last round of mass
0:20:13 > 0:20:16demonstrations, he was convicted of incitement, he has got 14 years
0:20:16 > 0:20:19in a military prison.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21You have been attacked with a metal pipe.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26You have been beaten up.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28In the last month, you have been tear-gassed, it's very
0:20:28 > 0:20:32probable, given what Maduro has said about you personally in recent days,
0:20:32 > 0:20:35you're going to end up in prison, too, perhaps in military prison,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37for many years, are you ready for that?
0:20:37 > 0:20:41Well, I am ready for fighting, I am ready for what we believe in
0:20:41 > 0:20:42Venezuela.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45We are ready for fighting for the values that make democracy
0:20:45 > 0:21:15strong, splendid and great for Venezuela.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18All of us take the risk - yesterday, two young people died,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21and they were not ready for that - but we are being positive,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25we believe that all Venezuelans know, all Venezuelans are very aware
0:21:25 > 0:21:28that we are fighting for something that we have to do,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31we need to do everything we can in order to create a country
0:21:31 > 0:21:32for all of us.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34We have to fight with that in mind.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38One thing on which you and Maduro would agree, you have talked
0:21:38 > 0:21:39about the need for inclusivity.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43Maduro in recent days has said, we need to get a dialogue going,
0:21:43 > 0:21:45he has the idea of a constituent assembly, to develop
0:21:45 > 0:21:48a new constitutional framework for Venezuela and he wants
0:21:48 > 0:21:50you and the opposition to join the dialogue.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Are you prepared to do that?
0:21:52 > 0:21:54You have kept saying no in the recent past.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57You know that this proposal of Maduro is a real fraud,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00because it will not be a constitution, it will not be
0:22:00 > 0:22:02elected by the people, it will be something
0:22:02 > 0:22:05like the Congress of Mussolini, where the people were appointed
0:22:05 > 0:22:08by sectors and not directly by the people, so it is a real
0:22:08 > 0:22:12fraud, it is a copycat for Cuba.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17OK, well, Julio Borges, we have to end there,
0:22:17 > 0:22:44but thank you very much for joining me on HARDtalk.