0:00:02 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News it's time for HARDTALK.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15When President Muhamadu Buhari won the Nigerian presidency two
0:00:15 > 0:00:18years ago it seemed like Africa's most populous nation had turned a
0:00:18 > 0:00:24corner.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26A first ever peaceful democratic transition bought a
0:00:26 > 0:00:28promise of cleaner, better governance and major economic
0:00:28 > 0:00:29reform.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31How's it going?
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Well, my guest today is Emmanuel Ibe Kachikwu, Minister
0:00:33 > 0:00:38of State for petroleum resources.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Can oil dependent Nigeria transform itself
0:00:40 > 0:01:07into a modern, trading economy?
0:01:09 > 0:01:13Emmanuel Ibe Kachikwu, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Thank you, Stephen.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I guess the lesson of the last two years
0:01:18 > 0:01:24or so, with President Muhamadu Buhari in power, is that Nigeria
0:01:24 > 0:01:27remains dangerously overreliant upon oil.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29Well, yes.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31Clearly over reliant.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34I don't know if it's dangerously.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Look at the positive sides of oil, in terms of what it
0:01:37 > 0:01:39has done to the country over the years.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41When the price slumps, it's dangerous.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Oh yes.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47We would love to see, obviously, a lot more
0:01:47 > 0:01:50diversification, a lot of effort is going into that, emphasis on
0:01:50 > 0:01:52agriculture, tourism areas, emphasis on services, which have done
0:01:52 > 0:01:55substantially well in the economy.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58But obviously we've neglected for quite some years they need to
0:01:58 > 0:01:59diversify.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04We need to go at it full steam.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07We'll talk about the degree to which you are having
0:02:07 > 0:02:09success in diversification, but if we stick
0:02:09 > 0:02:13with the impact of the slump in oil prices over the last couple of
0:02:13 > 0:02:15years, I mean, you've actually, despite your growing population,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18despite all the talk of Nigeria becoming a new global powerhouse
0:02:18 > 0:02:20economy, you've actually been in recession.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Yes, over the last three quarters, yes.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26The numbers are getting better.
0:02:26 > 0:02:31Quarter to quarter we're beginning to slide back out of it.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33The 2016 fourth quarter numbers have moved from
0:02:33 > 0:02:36about negative 2 point something percent to about 1.63.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40I haven't seen the 1st quarter figures
0:02:40 > 0:02:43released, which are meant, due to be released
0:02:43 > 0:02:46by the National bureau of statistics, to be able to confirm.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50As I understand, the IMF is saying that at best you will grow by just
0:02:50 > 0:02:52under a full percent over 2017.
0:02:52 > 0:02:53So it's very sluggish.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57Yes, but that's not unexpected.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01The reality is that almost a 60% decline in oil income,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04we have been substantially dependent, and over the years it
0:03:04 > 0:03:07will have impact.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11Add that to all other manners of uncertainties and
0:03:11 > 0:03:14the general economy itself and inefficiencies happening there.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16We're going to talk plenty about inefficiencies.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21Here is a fascinating quote.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24"High oil prices spoilt us, and we've messed it all
0:03:24 > 0:03:24up."
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Do you know who said that?
0:03:26 > 0:03:27I don't know, the president?
0:03:27 > 0:03:28You did!
0:03:28 > 0:03:28You did!
0:03:28 > 0:03:33That's true.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37I think for us, for me certainly, I look at the
0:03:37 > 0:03:40difficulties that come with the slump as an opportunity to get
0:03:40 > 0:03:42serious.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44There were about 30 years where we just kept
0:03:44 > 0:03:45postponing the evil day.
0:03:46 > 0:03:47Spoiled by oil price and oil money.
0:03:47 > 0:03:52At the time I was concerned to find it, what can
0:03:52 > 0:03:54we do in the absence of global oil prices?
0:03:54 > 0:03:56You're not going to have that happen again.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58So everybody's getting conscious of that.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00And there's a very conscious effort by
0:04:00 > 0:04:05the President and his team to focus on what we need to do is to be less
0:04:05 > 0:04:06reliant on oil.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09More efficient in terms of how we spend what we have.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Interesting you say there is very close
0:04:12 > 0:04:13focus from the president on
0:04:13 > 0:04:14this.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16One thing the president has been identified with in his first
0:04:16 > 0:04:19two years or so in office is trying to maintain,
0:04:19 > 0:04:20against all odds, a
0:04:20 > 0:04:21very strong currency.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23Now, many people inside and outside Nigeria
0:04:23 > 0:04:25say that is insane.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29First of all, you develop your own currency black
0:04:29 > 0:04:31market, which is never a good thing in an economy.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35But also your undermining the confidence of
0:04:35 > 0:04:37foreign investors, who simply don't believe it is sustainable.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Are you going to change that policy?
0:04:39 > 0:04:41I think we are working progressively towards
0:04:41 > 0:04:42getting out of that.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44If you look at the differences in prices, foreign
0:04:44 > 0:04:48exchange official versus the black market, it has moved from 520, high
0:04:48 > 0:04:53point of 530, in the black market took about 360-370.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57The strong policy was a mistake, wasn't it?
0:04:57 > 0:04:59I'm not a central bank governor, so I
0:04:59 > 0:05:01hate to call it a mistake.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03But really, we're faced with difficulties.
0:05:03 > 0:05:08The reality is we have very little foreign exchange in our
0:05:08 > 0:05:10hands, we have a lot of massive demands for it,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14a lot of it going to very luxury goods, which we really
0:05:14 > 0:05:15couldn't afford as a growing nation.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19What I believe central bank was, in the first one or two years,
0:05:19 > 0:05:21trying to force people away from that
0:05:21 > 0:05:22consumption culture.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23And they succeeded quite substantially.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25And now that they have, they've begun to
0:05:25 > 0:05:31release foreign exchange, loosen the market and that of it.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33I will leave the fiscal and monetary policies to
0:05:34 > 0:05:36the economists, in terms of how they decide.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39What I see as a growing trend is the central bank is
0:05:39 > 0:05:42creeping out of the very aggressive control that it had initially and
0:05:42 > 0:05:44losing conservative factors in the slide
0:05:44 > 0:05:45between the black market trade.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48OK, I put that policy at President Buhari's door.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52And before we get into a discussion of the
0:05:52 > 0:05:55future of the oil industry and this diversify the economy you want to
0:05:55 > 0:05:59see in your country, I need to stick with President Buhari a little bit
0:05:59 > 0:06:00longer.
0:06:00 > 0:06:01OK.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Not least because he is clearly seriously ill.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05Now, we speak here in London.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06You're a minister in the government.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09You tell me, because most Nigerians have no idea what is
0:06:09 > 0:06:12going on, what is the state of his health today?
0:06:12 > 0:06:14We understand that he is undergoing hospital treatment
0:06:14 > 0:06:15here in London.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16Have you seen him?
0:06:16 > 0:06:18Have you any idea what's going on?
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Yes, he's in London, undergoing hospital treatment.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22I don't know the details of that.
0:06:22 > 0:06:23I obviously wouldn't know.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Medical information is confidential.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26I wouldn't disclose that on TV.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30Let me say this, he returned back from his first trip in
0:06:30 > 0:06:33London, he walked full steam.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37The doctors had advised some rest.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39He is back to London, is continuing some
0:06:39 > 0:06:42levels of meetings, he's been able to place some rules.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45He has a very efficient vice president, who is
0:06:45 > 0:06:47sitting in for him in his absence.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49It really hasn't made much of a difference.
0:06:50 > 0:06:50You know what?
0:06:50 > 0:06:53He came to power promising a different, much
0:06:53 > 0:06:55more disciplined, transparent, open and efficient government in Nigeria.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58One of your main newspapers carried an editorial today saying he is
0:06:58 > 0:07:01guarding details of his health as carefully as Donald Trump card
0:07:01 > 0:07:10details of his tax affairs.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12What kind of transparency is this?
0:07:12 > 0:07:14The Nigerian public deserve and have a right
0:07:14 > 0:07:16to know what is going on
0:07:16 > 0:07:17with their nominal leader and Chief Executive?
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Nigerians generally know the fact he's not well.
0:07:20 > 0:07:21What is wrong with him?
0:07:21 > 0:07:22I don't know.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Where is the transparency in that?
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Let's face it, who in the world goes around giving everybody what their
0:07:29 > 0:07:31medical status is.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34The doctors have got to be able to release something
0:07:34 > 0:07:34official.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37He is working through it, it's not become a major problem.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39If he gets to incapacity level, we'll
0:07:39 > 0:07:41begin to worry a lot more.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43You know what the rumours are, don't you?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45You know the rumours in Nigeria are that
0:07:45 > 0:07:49he is desperately ill and, frankly, he may not be capable of leading
0:07:49 > 0:07:50Nigeria for very much longer.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53Well, we've seen rumours about sick presidents often, most of them
0:07:53 > 0:07:57sometimes not quite correct.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Will he be able to lead Nigeria?
0:07:59 > 0:08:01I think looking at the sort of conversations
0:08:01 > 0:08:04I've had with him, I had a lot of interactions
0:08:04 > 0:08:08with him when he came back, he was strong enough to do his
0:08:08 > 0:08:08work.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11He struggled in terms of trying to fully recover.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12Nobody plans and illness, it happens.
0:08:12 > 0:08:13If it happens...
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Nobody is suggesting any fault involved, the issue is about
0:08:16 > 0:08:18transparency and informing people what is going on.
0:08:18 > 0:08:24Yes, but he has an efficient number two man.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26The system works, that's the whole essence of
0:08:26 > 0:08:29democracy.
0:08:29 > 0:08:34He's on top of his abilities to be able to issue
0:08:34 > 0:08:37policies, to approve what he needs to approve.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40It's partly about certainty and stability.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42The chief of your Armed Forces has just issued
0:08:43 > 0:08:45a statement in this somewhat febrile, rumour filled atmosphere,
0:08:45 > 0:08:47telling those in uniform not to engage in politics.
0:08:48 > 0:08:49I.e - not to begin any
0:08:49 > 0:08:50process of meddling,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52interfering in politics, when there is no, frankly,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55there is a vacuum of leadership at the very top of your
0:08:55 > 0:08:56country.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57This is an extremely worrying.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01No, no, no, I think the press is taking it out of context.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03They think what the chief of the army was saying,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06look it's something they have rhetorically said all the
0:09:06 > 0:09:09time, the new army that we have, subject itself to civilian
0:09:09 > 0:09:10democracy.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13And that is the opinion every chief of army staff will give.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15It's not related to the President's circumstances.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19It is an ongoing education by the military forces.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Back to the direction of travel of your government.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26You are the Minister of State for petroleum.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29You are a former, senior executive in
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Exxon, and I think you directed the National
0:09:32 > 0:09:32Petroleum Corporation for
0:09:32 > 0:09:36some time, so I can't think of a man more steeped in the oil business
0:09:36 > 0:09:38than you.
0:09:38 > 0:09:39Absolutely.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41What on earth has gone wrong, when you see that
0:09:41 > 0:09:45your output levels today, roughly 2 million barrels per day, are miles
0:09:45 > 0:09:52away from your grand ambition of 3 million barrels a day?
0:09:52 > 0:09:55In fact last year you sunk so low in terms of
0:09:55 > 0:09:59production you were overtaken by Angola in African output.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00It's a disastrous story.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04Short and long-term.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06The short term answer, the militants in Nigeria
0:10:06 > 0:10:09disrupted production.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12And got us the slump that you saw, from 2.2 million
0:10:12 > 0:10:16barrels all the way down to 1.2.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19And it's taken a lot of work from myself
0:10:19 > 0:10:22and the Niger Delta vice president to get that back on track.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25When you say a lot of work, you mean buying off
0:10:25 > 0:10:26the militants?
0:10:26 > 0:10:27No, no, no.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29You fed them hundreds of millions of naira
0:10:29 > 0:10:32to stop them attacking the infrastructure.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36They don't have the money to feed anybody.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40It's been simple engagement.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42I've always said that.
0:10:42 > 0:10:44What the situation demands is simple respect and engagement.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I've been very intensive about engagement
0:10:46 > 0:10:47since I was appointed.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49The vice president joined me in that recently.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51The president has authorised it.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54That was a dramatic about face, that we did that.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57What had happened previously, the militants got the impression that
0:10:57 > 0:10:58nobody was taking them seriously.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00Nobody was listening to their problems.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03And I'm going to be doing that engagement continuously in
0:11:03 > 0:11:05terms of trying to provide some economic blueprints of direction.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08So that was the short reason why we have declined.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11In terms of meeting our national goals of 3 million, 3.5
0:11:11 > 0:11:13million barrels, to which I am very committed,
0:11:13 > 0:11:15the problem had been I
0:11:15 > 0:11:17think we had no focus and no long-term plans.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18Long-term investment.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19Long-term infrastructure.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22We now need to begin to do that.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Even though this is a difficult time to do that.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30We'll talk about that, because you do have
0:11:30 > 0:11:32big plans, the question is whether you can deliver them.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34One more point on the Niger Delta.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37I'll be honest with you, you are the ultimate
0:11:37 > 0:11:37insider.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39You know, I just described your career.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43Are you ashamed of what has happened in the Niger Delta?
0:11:43 > 0:11:46A fairly recent UN development programme report on the region,
0:11:46 > 0:11:52you're oil-producing region, says this is a region suffering from
0:11:52 > 0:11:54administrative neglect, crumbling social infrastructure and services,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56high unemployment, social deprivation, abject poverty, filth,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59squalor and endemic conflict.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01That is the region that generates the
0:12:01 > 0:12:06cash cow which keeps Nigeria afloat.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08It is shaming, is it not?
0:12:08 > 0:12:10It may be shameful, but you look at every
0:12:10 > 0:12:13oil-producing country in the world, you have the same similar neglect.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18I don't know why that happens, I think
0:12:18 > 0:12:19we take it for granted.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22That once you leave the oil, you can go off.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24And we need to begin to address that.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27Not just the national government, the oil companies that
0:12:27 > 0:12:28are also there.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Because they mind, quite frankly, about 80, 80% of our
0:12:30 > 0:12:31oil, established oil companies.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35We've got to begin to require some level of transparency and engagement
0:12:35 > 0:12:37by them of the local workforce also.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38Not just the government.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Yes, we've not done well in the past on this.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42I think we could do better.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44Some of the money, over the period we're
0:12:44 > 0:12:48talking about, over the last ten years, over 40 billion has also been
0:12:48 > 0:12:49sunk into those areas.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50But where is the money?
0:12:50 > 0:12:54A lot of it went to corruption, a lot of that was
0:12:54 > 0:12:54siphoned out.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56So money's even meant for the local population...
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Billions, over the last 50 years, hundreds of billions of dollars have
0:13:00 > 0:13:01been siphoned out of the oil business.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02Yes, yes, so...
0:13:02 > 0:13:03And somebody has taken it.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06People have taken it, that is why the
0:13:06 > 0:13:09President's main focus when he came here was fighting corruption and
0:13:09 > 0:13:10fighting it aggressively.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12And I think that if there was one area he
0:13:12 > 0:13:16is focused immense attention on, it has been dealing with corruption.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18You are pushing this petroleum industry bill.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21As I understand, one of the key pillars of that bill is
0:13:21 > 0:13:25that more of the revenues that come out of the oil business stay in the
0:13:25 > 0:13:28region from which they come.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30The rest of your country doesn't like
0:13:30 > 0:13:34that one little bit.
0:13:34 > 0:13:35There are indicators senior politicians in
0:13:35 > 0:13:39your parliament are not going to allow you to steam-roll through this
0:13:39 > 0:13:40bill in the way you would like.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46Actually, the foreign bill that you have is actually a members Bill,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48Senate Bill, not even from the executive.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50The executive, including myself, have cooperated as much as
0:13:50 > 0:13:53we can in terms of giving data that is required
0:13:53 > 0:13:54to get a signed bill.
0:13:55 > 0:14:01Yes, there is an intent to try and put a bit more
0:14:01 > 0:14:02in the Niger Delta area.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Yes, they are obviously given the final discussed results, there
0:14:05 > 0:14:08were obviously grumblings in terms of how it is applied.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11But when I meet with them, I see a commonality of purpose.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13I hear the history of Niger Delta is heated,
0:14:13 > 0:14:17and everybody is trying to find a solution.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20One quick way of that is to enhance the ability of other
0:14:20 > 0:14:27component states, to be able to stand economically.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29And including findings of oil in the north.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32So I think I see a lot of collaboration, despite the
0:14:32 > 0:14:34disagreements in terms of what the percentages
0:14:34 > 0:14:37of the water numbers would be, but I'm still a lot more
0:14:37 > 0:14:38focused on governance.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40How do you use what eventually get into the
0:14:40 > 0:14:41territories well?
0:14:41 > 0:14:43How do we get the government to take responsibility
0:14:43 > 0:14:45for money that gets there?
0:14:45 > 0:14:47How do we get local governments, how do we get
0:14:47 > 0:14:48the citizens themselves?
0:14:48 > 0:14:51How do people who make a lot of money from
0:14:51 > 0:14:53oil pay enough tax to the government?
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Nigeria's probably the least taxed nation in the world so
0:14:56 > 0:15:03everybody's focused on...
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Well, it would help if you actually delivered on some of your promises
0:15:06 > 0:15:09to clean up the corruption endemic not just in the sector
0:15:09 > 0:15:12but across all economic sectors, by actually putting some very senior
0:15:12 > 0:15:15people, both public figures and fat cat businesspeople,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18into a court of law, and saying, no more of this.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20And here are the figureheads and we're going to take them
0:15:21 > 0:15:21through the courts.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Well, Stephen, to a court of law we have.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I think this president has put a whole lot more people
0:15:27 > 0:15:29than all successive governments collectively put together.
0:15:29 > 0:15:30I'm talking about the top people.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32Absolutely.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Name me a few. The ministers of the...
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Defence chiefs, who have been tried. Governors who have been tried.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39It's not happened before. Even the judiciary.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40Your carefully saying "Being tried".
0:15:40 > 0:15:43How many convictions of these top people have you actually seen?
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Just like in any system in the world including yours,
0:15:46 > 0:15:47you don't re-route judiciary.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50You have agreed with me that hundreds of millions of dollars has
0:15:50 > 0:15:53been taken out of the Nigerian economy, somebody's taking it,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56and you're telling me, unfortunately, a lot of these people
0:15:56 > 0:15:58who we take to trial we can't convict.
0:15:58 > 0:15:58Somebody is responsible.
0:15:59 > 0:15:59Somebody's responsible.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01Whoever is responsible, we're putting them into court.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03The court process has got to work.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07One of the, and I'm a lawyer, I studied to PG level in law,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09I wonder the difficulty sometimes of corruption is that
0:16:09 > 0:16:13because as much as there ought to be the bastion of Justice,
0:16:13 > 0:16:13take the time.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16The common law system is grinding at a slow pace.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20So again, if the president was to turn around and say anybody
0:16:20 > 0:16:22that had any suspicion, yank them into jail,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24we have an opera in the world.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27What's going on?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Until they are found guilty, there's not too much we can do.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33What is important, investigations are going on, it is very active,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36people are being picked up, they are not respecters of person.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39All the big names are being locked up where they can.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41And put through the trial process.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44But the trial process must take its time, there's not too much
0:16:44 > 0:16:48you can do about that.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51Let's get back to what you can do something about personally,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54and that is the reshaping of the oil business.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57You talked about diversification, and we can talk about taking
0:16:57 > 0:16:59diversification way beyond oil to other sectors,
0:16:59 > 0:16:59transportation, agriculture, etc.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03But on oil, one of the fundamental problems is that you have this
0:17:03 > 0:17:05wonderful resource but you don't do anything with it.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09What you do is ship it out and much of the value is then given
0:17:09 > 0:17:12to others, they refine it, then you buy it back.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15You've got the most extraordinary system where, I think I'm right
0:17:15 > 0:17:18in saying, you're refined petroleum imports were highly in March 2017
0:17:18 > 0:17:20than they've ever been before.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25I mean, your industry is totally dysfunctional.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29No, no, Steve not quite that.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Let me say this.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Yes, it is wrong.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37We ought to process, rather than ship out crude.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41If you look at all the efforts are made in the last few months,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44including measures for working with investors to begin to reshape
0:17:44 > 0:17:46the refineries that have been comatose for very many years.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49And actually came...
0:17:49 > 0:17:50Comatose?
0:17:50 > 0:17:53How can, in an ambitious modern state, how can you have
0:17:53 > 0:17:54refineries lying comatose?
0:17:54 > 0:17:57It is what it is, the president is there for two years.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59The refineries went down before he came.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01Since coming, we've been able to get them back,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04to begin to produce several million litres versus zero.
0:18:04 > 0:18:05That's not the 90% complete.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07We're now refurbishing the refineries, I've just signed
0:18:07 > 0:18:10an agreement to build a new refinery in Nigeria.
0:18:10 > 0:18:16We're focused on multinationals, focusing on an processes.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18May I say, you're very good at setting out targets,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21you know, more than 3 million barrels a day of production,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24you say by 2020 we want to eliminate petroleum import.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26Wonderful ambitions, but you give no sign
0:18:26 > 0:18:27of being able to deliver.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31Steve, I've delivered on everything I promised when I came into office.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34First, I took an NMPC and made it into a profit-making organisation.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35First time in history.
0:18:35 > 0:18:36I reshaped the organisation.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38I removed cash deficits of over 6 billion, OK?
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Everything I've promised I've delivered.
0:18:40 > 0:18:48I will deliver an the refineries, and I'm committed to that.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52I will also deliver a future for oil that makes sense for Nigeria.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56But bear in mind, one has been there for one and a half years,
0:18:56 > 0:18:58the president has been there for two years.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01I can't pretend that we're going to solve in one day
0:19:01 > 0:19:04all the problems that happen in Nigeria in the past.
0:19:04 > 0:19:06We'll solve the Niger Delta militancy problem.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It was there, we sorted it after one and a half years.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12And when I say solve, listen, I'm not saying it has gone away.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15When is Nigeria going to be self-sufficient in terms
0:19:15 > 0:19:16of refined petroleum?
0:19:16 > 0:19:18I have targeted 2019, that is the target I gave.
0:19:18 > 0:19:242019?
0:19:24 > 0:19:24Yeah.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27You're running out of time because you're nowhere
0:19:27 > 0:19:28near right now.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31No, Steve, don't worry, I put the date, I'll work it.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33And if you don't achieve it, you'll walk?
0:19:33 > 0:19:35Yes, of course, that's the reason why you're in government.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37That's called accountability, isn't it?
0:19:37 > 0:19:38Yes, absolutely.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40Will their's not much of that in the Nigerian government
0:19:40 > 0:19:41at the moment.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Well, we're trying to put it in place.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Do you wonder, and it goes back, in a sense, to Mr Buhari
0:19:47 > 0:19:50and his ability to impose his leadership on the Cabinet,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54on the country, do you worry that, you know, he is not in a fit state
0:19:54 > 0:19:57right now to knock heads together and deliver on the promises
0:19:57 > 0:19:59of better government, economic diverse a vacation.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Democracy's not a case of knocking heads, it's a business of persuasive
0:20:03 > 0:20:07ability to lead.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09He does possess that ability.
0:20:09 > 0:20:11He also has his leadership qualities, he does have
0:20:11 > 0:20:13the discipline, he's an incorruptible leader.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14Those other that we need.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17My underlying is, Mandela in his last days, these last years,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20was not the" go do it" individual and he was a leader,
0:20:20 > 0:20:21a perceptive leader.
0:20:21 > 0:20:22And that's what we need.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26And so I think he's able to deliver on that as of now.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29And we're happy with the job that he's doing and we're
0:20:29 > 0:20:30going to work around that.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33We just, you just powerfully said, I believe in accountability,
0:20:33 > 0:20:36and you said you would walk if you didn't achieve
0:20:36 > 0:20:38what you promised.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40A significant anti-corruption organisation in Nigeria has looked
0:20:40 > 0:20:43at the state of Buhari's promised to clean up government
0:20:43 > 0:20:43in your country.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45They've asked a series of interesting questions,
0:20:45 > 0:20:48I wonder if you can answer them for me.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50One, why does - the Nigerian government budget asks -
0:20:50 > 0:20:52need 11 different aircraft for ministerial use?
0:20:52 > 0:20:55In a recession, just coming out of recession.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57There isn't any budget, let there isn't an aircraft
0:20:57 > 0:20:59for ministers, ministers don't use aircraft.
0:20:59 > 0:21:00We travel, we travel public.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03There are some presidential jets, some of which have been put
0:21:03 > 0:21:04up for sale.
0:21:04 > 0:21:05I don't have quite the details.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08But I think he's down from an initial 11-12,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11down to something like about seven, and only two or three really proper
0:21:11 > 0:21:12conditions for usage.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16And he has given, I know he has given some authorisation for some
0:21:16 > 0:21:22to be sold.
0:21:22 > 0:21:23In terms of numerical accountability, he has
0:21:23 > 0:21:24reduced that substantially.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27Ministers try to travel in business class by commercial airlines.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30One other thing, we can go from the specific to the board,
0:21:30 > 0:21:33how can the government release 400 billion naira for capital
0:21:33 > 0:21:35expenditure, giving no proper detail of how this money
0:21:35 > 0:21:40is going to be spent?
0:21:40 > 0:21:43That's not true, there is a proper detail on how the money's
0:21:44 > 0:21:45going to be spent.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Budgets are just not resilient in the air.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49There are specific ministries who provide details.
0:21:49 > 0:21:50They are vetted and approved.
0:21:50 > 0:22:06I know that the biggest chunk of that is going to capital spend,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09in terms of infrastructure, rail roads taking up quite a bit
0:22:09 > 0:22:11of that, roads are taking quite a bit of that.
0:22:12 > 0:22:13The whole idea was, given the deficit position
0:22:14 > 0:22:17with the economy, we need to spend our way, in difficult times
0:22:17 > 0:22:18come out of it.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21So a lot of capital expenditure has gone into construction.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23Right, we must end, I think, reflecting on the biggest
0:22:23 > 0:22:24pitch of all.
0:22:24 > 0:22:25The tragedy of Nigeria.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Which is that while you focus on trying to reinvigorate
0:22:28 > 0:22:31the economy and your sector, the oil industry, the fact
0:22:31 > 0:22:34is in the north of your country, according to the UN,
0:22:34 > 0:22:36there are nearly half a million children in grave
0:22:36 > 0:22:37danger of starvation.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40A result, in one way or another, of the Boko Haram insurgency.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Isn't that the ultimate condemnation of Nigeria today?
0:22:43 > 0:22:46You are a country, oil-rich, half a million kids they starve to death.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Steve, come on.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Are you going to say that the attacks in London
0:22:51 > 0:22:52by terrorists is the fault of London?
0:22:52 > 0:23:03No.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05Boko Haram isn't the fault of Nigeria.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07It's the happenstance we've found.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Buhari has been able to deal with it very effectively.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12When he came into position, we had literally about 28
0:23:12 > 0:23:15of our local governments in the hands of Boko Haram.
0:23:15 > 0:23:22Today it's zero.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Now there is fallout from some of this, some of those are social.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26We need to do better.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29But there is a lot of work going into funding provision,
0:23:29 > 0:23:32we have a lot of international support, international assistance.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34But clearly we inherited problems that were major,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37nobody better, quite frankly, at that time, in terms of security
0:23:37 > 0:23:39imperatives, to deal with this issue than Buhari.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41I think he's dealt with it effectively.
0:23:41 > 0:23:42Innovate...
0:23:42 > 0:23:43We have to end...
0:23:43 > 0:23:46In a way you're saying Buhari's promised to eliminate Boko Haram.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48He's going to deliver on it?
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Yes, he's working very hard at it.
0:23:50 > 0:23:51Does anybody promised on 100% basis?
0:23:51 > 0:23:53To eliminate militants or eliminate terrorism?
0:23:53 > 0:23:55Nowhere in the world has that been achieved.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57The key thing's that taken back the territories.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58That is key.
0:23:58 > 0:23:59That is the first control.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Now when somebody explodes a bomb somewhere you can't
0:24:02 > 0:24:03prevent, potentially, yes.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05We're going to keep working at that.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06We have to end there.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08Emmanuel Ibe Kachikwu, thank you very much.
0:24:08 > 0:24:09Thank you very much.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10For being on HARDtalk.
0:24:10 > 0:24:25Thank you.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Hello there.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44The weather has been warming up over the past couple of days,
0:24:44 > 0:24:47and that warming trend is set to continue through much