:00:09. > :00:29.Welcome to HARDtalk. Does Saddam's lethal cocktail of failed
:00:30. > :00:34.governance, ethnic division, hunger and disease threatens millions of
:00:35. > :00:40.lives. -- South Sudan. It represents a tragic failure on the part of the
:00:41. > :00:44.rulers of Africa's newest country, and on the part of the United
:00:45. > :00:51.Nations Mission in South Sudan which has brought neither peace or
:00:52. > :00:53.anything else. I ask David Shearer what hope there is for the people of
:00:54. > :01:25.South Sudan. David Shearer, welcome to HARDtalk
:01:26. > :01:29.Thank you. Do you think the world is paying heed to the agonies and
:01:30. > :01:34.suffering of the people of South Sudan? I think increasingly so, but
:01:35. > :01:39.there is a competition, of Italy, for airtime in terms of disasters
:01:40. > :01:43.around the world. South Sudan sometimes, despite the enormous
:01:44. > :01:48.amount of tragedy, sometimes falls off the stage. Right now, there are
:01:49. > :01:53.more than half the population of South Sudan in need of food aid. One
:01:54. > :01:58.third of the country is displaced, either in other countries or
:01:59. > :02:02.internally displaced. And the conflict continues on. And this is
:02:03. > :02:09.not a disaster that is borne out of drought. It is a disaster that is
:02:10. > :02:14.borne out of conflict. It is man-made. It is a man-made
:02:15. > :02:18.catastrophe. The UN agency responsible for food and agriculture
:02:19. > :02:24.has talked about famine. A word which is always used with great
:02:25. > :02:29.care. Is it justified in South Sudan today? They did Keppel analysis of
:02:30. > :02:33.the situation in South Sudan and declared one particular area, a
:02:34. > :02:39.number of counties, in a famine zone. -- careful analysis. They
:02:40. > :02:42.believe 100,000 people in the area were likely to die unless there was
:02:43. > :02:47.an enormous amount of food put into the area. That has happened to some
:02:48. > :02:52.degree and the numbers have come down from 100,000 down to about
:02:53. > :02:56.80,000. But around the rest of South Sudan, Dini has risen. Particular in
:02:57. > :03:03.now, with the onset of the rainy season. -- that has risen. Between
:03:04. > :03:07.now when they plant and when they harvest their food, there is a very,
:03:08. > :03:15.very big and worrying gap. Let's get back to the point that it is a
:03:16. > :03:26.man-made disaster. You sit there in the capital, responsible for the UN
:03:27. > :03:29.mission. There are -- you are supposed to be there protecting the
:03:30. > :03:37.people of South Sudan. And you cannot, because you are only able to
:03:38. > :03:41.address the symptoms, not of South Sudan's problem. And the cause is
:03:42. > :03:48.total political dysfunction. And that is beyond your ability to fix.
:03:49. > :03:54.I had to say that what we do do in South Sudan, and it is more than
:03:55. > :04:01.half of our mandate to protect civilians, and we have 230,000
:04:02. > :04:09.people either inside our bases or right alongside them, who we... Who
:04:10. > :04:12.we are protecting. Or not, as the case may be? Because we can go
:04:13. > :04:18.through the different case studies, last year, the year before, where
:04:19. > :04:25.people inside those camps, under your protection, have been attacked
:04:26. > :04:33.and killed. Some, yes. And I am not trying to defend what happened. But
:04:34. > :04:37.overwhelmingly, 230,000 people have chosen to come inside our bases, and
:04:38. > :04:42.are alive today because we are there. So the UN, through its work,
:04:43. > :04:48.has saved tens of thousands of people. There is absolutely no doubt
:04:49. > :04:50.about that. Have we let on occasion, have there been instances where
:04:51. > :04:55.people have been killed? Yes. But overwhelmingly, a lot of people
:04:56. > :05:02.choose to be there. I don't think that is enough. 230,000 is the huge
:05:03. > :05:07.number. But we have around 2 million people who are displaced across
:05:08. > :05:12.South Sudan, and our real role, now, is to get beyond our bases and get
:05:13. > :05:15.out into those areas and provide some degree of protection or comfort
:05:16. > :05:19.for those people who are outside. It one of the biggest problem is you
:05:20. > :05:23.face the fact that the president of the country, Salva Kiir Mayardit,
:05:24. > :05:26.and we have had him on the country, before. We had him here during a
:05:27. > :05:30.previous crisis a couple of years ago, but it is worse now. Salva Kiir
:05:31. > :05:39.Mayardit does not really want you and your forces in his country. It
:05:40. > :05:42.is a copycat edition. I think for the government of South Sudan, on
:05:43. > :05:47.the one hand, they are proud, they got their independence after 40
:05:48. > :05:51.years of fighting. -- it is a complicated situation. The thought
:05:52. > :05:55.that the UN needs to be there is a bit of an anathema to them. On the
:05:56. > :06:00.other hand, they realise that we are mandated to be here and need to be
:06:01. > :06:04.there. It is a relationship we have two managed carefully. But they also
:06:05. > :06:07.recognise that if the UN was not better, there would be tens of
:06:08. > :06:12.thousands of people who would not get food aid, that would not be
:06:13. > :06:17.protected, that would not be up to get water or medical supplies, et
:06:18. > :06:21.cetera. So they need us and we need to work carefully with them at the
:06:22. > :06:27.same time. Salva Kiir Mayardit is at war with his former Vice President,
:06:28. > :06:30.the other man who has lived through the liberation struggle and
:06:31. > :06:38.independence of South Sudan, Riek Machar, one representing one
:06:39. > :06:49.particular tribal grouping, that is the Dinka, and Riek Machar
:06:50. > :06:54.represents the other group. Everything you are talking to me
:06:55. > :07:01.about is a plaster on a winter continues to fester. There is no
:07:02. > :07:07.doubt that if we want to solve the German problem, the cholera problem,
:07:08. > :07:12.of which are growing number of cases. -- South
:07:13. > :07:26.-- South -- wound that. A year ago, Riek Machar and Salva Kiir Mayardit
:07:27. > :07:30.were sitting down to discuss a peace deal. There was a lot of hope that
:07:31. > :07:34.would bring about peace. And within days of the meeting, Salva Kiir
:07:35. > :07:38.Mayardit's forces were bombing Riek Machar's people and they were on the
:07:39. > :07:43.run on leaving the country. It blew up. Who was responsible for that
:07:44. > :07:48.depends on who you speak to. In a sense is it not your duty, as the
:07:49. > :07:54.UN's top representative, the special envoy of the UN to South Sudan, at
:07:55. > :07:59.some point you will have to make some calls and you say to your boss
:08:00. > :08:02.and to the world that this is the man who is responsible for the
:08:03. > :08:06.methods are Sudan is in today. So why don't you tell me right now who
:08:07. > :08:12.you believe carries the responsibility. -- for the situation
:08:13. > :08:16.in South Sudan today. I think right now we need to be looking forward in
:08:17. > :08:20.terms of how we get out of this, rather than looking backwards and
:08:21. > :08:25.thinking about who did what to whom. And it depends on who you speak to.
:08:26. > :08:31.Right now, it is after the conflict in July last year, when everything,
:08:32. > :08:35.again, to do nothing. Salva Kiir Mayardit remained the President.
:08:36. > :08:39.Riek Machar is currently in South Africa. There was, I believe, a
:08:40. > :08:47.feeling around the region, and it was the region that brought these
:08:48. > :08:51.two together, are they peace deal. To enable Salva Kiir Mayardit to be
:08:52. > :08:58.president and to try and resolve the conflict as it went along. Right
:08:59. > :09:03.now, certainly, the government as a sedan is very strong. And the
:09:04. > :09:08.opposition is no longer just Riek Machar. It is also broken into other
:09:09. > :09:14.groups. And so it has become more competent than it was before. So go
:09:15. > :09:18.backwards is not an option. It is about going forwards. -- it has
:09:19. > :09:27.become more competent. Are you talking to Riek Machar yourself? --
:09:28. > :09:38.complicated. Not myself. But we have had somebody down to speak five or
:09:39. > :09:43.six weeks ago. Let's think deeply about your mission. The mandate has
:09:44. > :09:48.changed. In 2013, it was about ambitious plans to try and form a
:09:49. > :09:51.new state, to help build a civil society of functioning democracy.
:09:52. > :09:55.That is what the UN appeared to believe could be done in South
:09:56. > :10:00.Sudan. In the last couple of years, much more focused on that, as you
:10:01. > :10:06.call it, the core job of protecting civilians in a time of terrible
:10:07. > :10:13.civil strife. The problem is your forces do not appear to be able to
:10:14. > :10:18.do that job. Partly because, to quote one UN official in Sao Sudan,
:10:19. > :10:25.admittedly anonymous, he said the truth is, nobody was to die for
:10:26. > :10:30.South Sudan. In the UN force. And that is a brutal truth, isn't it?
:10:31. > :10:34.Nobody was to die. And I do want anybody to die. Let's about
:10:35. > :10:39.absolutely clear. You know what I mean, though. The point is that your
:10:40. > :10:45.forces go when push comes to shove, whether it be the terrible incident
:10:46. > :10:53.in Juba last year, when your forces stood by as killings occurred. And
:10:54. > :10:57.there was another case in a different camp, and 2015, as
:10:58. > :11:02.civilians were killed, more than 30, your forces to buy. They are not
:11:03. > :11:08.prepared to put their own lives on the line to say civilians. -- South
:11:09. > :11:12.Sudan. In July last year, there was a lot of criticism about the UN and
:11:13. > :11:19.the way that it responded. -- stood by. I came in after that time. I
:11:20. > :11:25.came in after those of us. We brought in a retired general, and he
:11:26. > :11:30.led a team of people who looked very intensively at how the UN responded
:11:31. > :11:35.to what happened. And we were found to be wanting. And we set in play a
:11:36. > :11:43.whole series of measures to try and address that. When I came in, I
:11:44. > :11:47.picked that up to take those measures forward, and then brought
:11:48. > :11:52.the general back in again to say now look at us, as if we are better than
:11:53. > :11:55.when you canter a few months ago. And check to see... And I think we
:11:56. > :11:58.reported back to the Security Council on this, because the
:11:59. > :12:03.Security Council was also anxious to hear how we had got on. I think we
:12:04. > :12:09.have addressed many of the issues. But look, it is an ongoing thing. We
:12:10. > :12:14.have two be more robust. And I think we are. And we need to be more
:12:15. > :12:17.prepared. We need to have a great degree of looking forward and trying
:12:18. > :12:23.to anticipate what is happening and be ready for that. And so I think
:12:24. > :12:30.there is a, certainly within the mission, now, we are better placed
:12:31. > :12:33.than we were last year. But with respect, if you look at the time
:12:34. > :12:39.line, after the terrible events of last year, the UN decided it needed
:12:40. > :12:44.to beef up its military and police Imprezas with at least 4000 extra
:12:45. > :12:48.personnel. Salva Kiir Mayardit, and you refuse to take sides, earlier
:12:49. > :12:54.on, when I invited you to ascribe responsibility to different players,
:12:55. > :12:57.Salva Kiir Mayardit has over the months blocked and thwarted your
:12:58. > :13:08.desire to expand your military presence. -- police forces with at
:13:09. > :13:12.least. We have had difficulty getting people in. There is no doubt
:13:13. > :13:19.about that. A lot of it has been bureaucratic. You wonder how much of
:13:20. > :13:24.what is bureaucracy or something else. So why do you call them out?
:13:25. > :13:28.Say to Salva Kiir Mayardit that this is unacceptable? And there will be
:13:29. > :13:33.consequences. If you don't allow our extra military force in. We have.
:13:34. > :13:38.We've reported the Security Council in public. I have given various
:13:39. > :13:42.interviews where I have said we need to have his regional protection
:13:43. > :13:49.force coming. At what has happened? It is still slow. But look, we are
:13:50. > :13:55.doing what we can. -- but what has happened. We have the elements on
:13:56. > :13:59.the ground. And we are finding, as of the last few weeks, it is
:14:00. > :14:03.becoming easier and easier. I want to come back to something you said
:14:04. > :14:06.before, because I think there is an important issue, here, and that is
:14:07. > :14:10.about the robustness of the response. Of course nobody wants to
:14:11. > :14:15.die in Sao Sudan. We don't expect that. But right now, if we are... If
:14:16. > :14:20.I said a patrol down to a particular area, and at a checkpoint, and the
:14:21. > :14:24.checkpoints as you cannot come through, the standing instruction is
:14:25. > :14:31.do not turn around. -- South Sudan. You stay there. And we had patrol
:14:32. > :14:36.steppers checkpoints overnight, one day, it two days, or longer, until
:14:37. > :14:42.they are able to get through. -- we have had patrol 's stay at those. A
:14:43. > :14:45.few weeks ago, the Mongolian group had a checkpoint, weapons were cops,
:14:46. > :14:54.and they were told that they couldn't come through. -- patrols.
:14:55. > :14:57.They radioed back to the base, and they were told that they would turn
:14:58. > :15:01.around, but not in five minutes. They turned around in 30 minutes,
:15:02. > :15:06.and the next day they went back and got through. This is the more robust
:15:07. > :15:10.type of peacekeeping that we want to see. But I want to say... People are
:15:11. > :15:17.still dying. Civilians are dying every day. Just a minute. That is
:15:18. > :15:20.highly, highly dangerous brinkmanship. We are two sides with
:15:21. > :15:26.their weapons cocked against each other. In order for us to perform
:15:27. > :15:29.our mandate, I guess we could machine-gun our way through, but
:15:30. > :15:33.what would happen the next day? The next day we would be at war with the
:15:34. > :15:38.groups that are in front of us. And we would suffer casualties, and we
:15:39. > :15:42.would not be able to do the job that we have been sent out to do. So this
:15:43. > :15:44.is a very delicate situation in terms of peacekeeping. This is
:15:45. > :15:48.peacekeeping. It is not warmaking. It is not invasion. It is
:15:49. > :15:54.peacekeeping. Try to get to civilians are you try to protect and
:15:55. > :16:00.it is when the possibly can. -- in the best way that you possibly can.
:16:01. > :16:07.Is it possible to talk about peacekeeping when they are players
:16:08. > :16:12.who are guilty against war crimes and crimes against humanity? I think
:16:13. > :16:17.you can but the point for us is to be able to get to the places that we
:16:18. > :16:21.need to go and by being present, we stop a lot of the atrocities that
:16:22. > :16:28.are going on, from being carried out. We are able to monitor and
:16:29. > :16:33.record some of those atrocity perhaps for future times and some of
:16:34. > :16:38.those people may be able to be held to account. We are able for
:16:39. > :16:42.humanitarian supplies to be able to brought into an area that otherwise
:16:43. > :16:48.they would not be able to get into. I think the peacekeeping role, it is
:16:49. > :16:53.no doubt, it is a saving the lives of thousands of people dot back but
:16:54. > :16:59.just to be clear about it, the UN said in December 2016, a process of
:17:00. > :17:04.debt cleansing is under way in parts of south Sudan. Is that your beliefs
:17:05. > :17:09.that ethnic cleansing is happening in a country which you, for the UN,
:17:10. > :17:16.are responsible for, use it within force of 17 thousand personnel and
:17:17. > :17:23.you are unable to stop ethnic cleansing continuing? With the
:17:24. > :17:27.comings and that are going on and the multitude of them, every part of
:17:28. > :17:34.south Sudan is a bit different. There is an ethnic dimension to
:17:35. > :17:40.them. Around that time that report came out, there was talk about
:17:41. > :17:44.genocide and that was the word that scared people and certainly got the
:17:45. > :17:48.attention of the international... People have talked about Rwanda and
:17:49. > :17:54.have said South Sudan has all the components that could push it over
:17:55. > :18:01.the edge to be the world 's next Rwanda style genocidal catastrophe.
:18:02. > :18:08.I worked in Rwanda just after the genocide and know what absolute
:18:09. > :18:13.failure looks like. My feeling is, yes, there are atrocity that are
:18:14. > :18:17.being carried out, that are racially inspired, but we're not seeing
:18:18. > :18:23.something that is organised political campaign to eliminate one
:18:24. > :18:27.group or another. None of this is easy but it seems to me you have a
:18:28. > :18:32.pet ticket only difficult set of choices to be made, particularly in
:18:33. > :18:38.regards to your approach to Salva Kiir. John Kerry when he was
:18:39. > :18:44.addressing the south Sudan crisis, he made it crystal clear as the US
:18:45. > :18:49.Secretary of State that US assistance in its total of more than
:18:50. > :18:54.$1.6 billion over the last six years, he said it was not
:18:55. > :18:58.unconditional. We are not going to continue to fill this void and
:18:59. > :19:02.provide help incessantly if the parties involved are not willing to
:19:03. > :19:08.accept responsibility and do things to deliver peace for their people.
:19:09. > :19:16.Is it time to reassess aid and assistance to South Sudan? I hope
:19:17. > :19:21.not, quite frankly, because if we cut at an 80 only people the list
:19:22. > :19:26.are the people who have nothing to do with the conflict and a sickly
:19:27. > :19:29.innocent bystanders, citizens who have gone through years and years of
:19:30. > :19:37.war. Maybe the aid is simply allowing the players to perpetuate
:19:38. > :19:43.the cycle of conflict and violence. From the work of NGOs on the ground,
:19:44. > :19:46.some people are enriching themselves as millions of their fellow citizens
:19:47. > :19:54.are going hungry and facing starvation. I think that if we cut
:19:55. > :19:57.back on food aid, then there is going to be a direct correlation
:19:58. > :20:03.with the number of people who died. It is very simple. If we do that,
:20:04. > :20:09.that is a decision. Will it be about a political and Abbas no, I do not
:20:10. > :20:14.think so. The people fighting to not depend on food aid. Overwhelmingly
:20:15. > :20:21.Seagate... Some may be redirected to military... But overwhelmingly... In
:20:22. > :20:26.every conflict I have worked in a round of the world, the military
:20:27. > :20:30.always eat first. Let's face it, that is happening but the
:20:31. > :20:37.overwhelming Seagate that goes into South Sudan goes to those people who
:20:38. > :20:42.need it. If you turned the tap off, then it will change the behaviour of
:20:43. > :20:48.the leaders of South Sudan? I do think so. I think we will be in
:20:49. > :20:52.exactly the same situation only with a lot of people dead. No one
:20:53. > :20:59.disputes the fact that today South Sudan is a failing state. It is the
:21:00. > :21:05.world 's youngest station but it is failing badly. There is an idea
:21:06. > :21:13.abroad that the early and best way of saving the people south Sudan is
:21:14. > :21:15.to put the country into some form of UN trusteeship stock
:21:16. > :21:23.at the UN died in South Sudan, you've seen the failing of the
:21:24. > :21:26.government, is that the best solution may be to look what
:21:27. > :21:34.happened in Kosovo and East Timor, and put these country in some form
:21:35. > :21:37.of trusteeship. There is quite a bit of talk about an never seen somebody
:21:38. > :21:43.go beyond the idea through the implications of what that would mean
:21:44. > :21:48.on the ground. First of all, the UN is not talking about that and I
:21:49. > :21:54.certainly am not. I was in Iraq were effectively, there was a trusteeship
:21:55. > :21:59.when the US went in, it was hugely problematic. I was in Kosovo, a
:22:00. > :22:04.small country and it was problematic that but it was more containable.
:22:05. > :22:09.South Sudan is an immense country with a very proud people who believe
:22:10. > :22:12.they thought a 40 year plus civil war in order to gain their
:22:13. > :22:18.independence, only now to have it taken away and given to the UN. I
:22:19. > :22:24.think that would... Millions are at risk... Absolutely but more millions
:22:25. > :22:27.would be at risk by going down the road where we have not thought about
:22:28. > :22:37.the repercussions of what that would mean. I think just the basics, the
:22:38. > :22:42.salsa down people 's liberation Army is 2000 strong. He was going to be
:22:43. > :22:47.on the ground to be able to protect people and enable that to come
:22:48. > :22:52.together? There are lots of implications around these... It is
:22:53. > :22:57.just doing the best you can in a terrible situation. Look, it is
:22:58. > :23:02.about doing the best you possibly can. I also worked in Liberia and
:23:03. > :23:08.Sierra Leone where they have turned a corner and moved into another
:23:09. > :23:12.direction. I have optimism that an agreement will be found and we will
:23:13. > :23:18.be able to move forward. Many countries, as they have started off
:23:19. > :23:21.in conflict, admittedly this is one of the worst. It is the most
:23:22. > :23:26.difficult and most challenging country I have worked in in my
:23:27. > :23:31.career and I do not think people really understand where south Sudan
:23:32. > :23:36.started from. Yes, they got their independence or a 200 kilometre of
:23:37. > :23:41.tarmac road, 200 kilometres in a country the size of France. That is
:23:42. > :23:52.what they inherited when they got the independence. The capital, Juba,
:23:53. > :23:57.to a half weeks in a dry season to go through a journey to the next big
:23:58. > :24:03.town. The logistics are overwhelming in south Sudan. I do not think
:24:04. > :24:09.people quite grasp the enormity of the issues facing both us, the
:24:10. > :24:13.government, the opposition, everybody. That is the challenge
:24:14. > :24:15.that you continue to face and we thank you for being on HARDtalk.
:24:16. > :24:20.Thank you.