:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. The recent UK general
:00:21. > :00:24.election was supposed to strengthen the British government's hand in the
:00:25. > :00:30.looming Brexit negotiations. Instead, it backfired spectacularly.
:00:31. > :00:33.Theresa May is a weakened Prime Minister at the head of a minority
:00:34. > :00:37.government ill-prepared for the complex, difficult talks that lie
:00:38. > :00:45.at. My guest is Deputy Prime Minister of old Jim, Alexander de
:00:46. > :00:48.Croo. -- Belgium. Does Europe viewed written's travails with sympathy or
:00:49. > :01:20.relish? -- view Britain's travails. Alexander de Croo, in Brussels,
:01:21. > :01:29.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Their use it as a senior minister in
:01:30. > :01:32.a European government. -- there you sit. And as luck would have it, in
:01:33. > :01:36.the institutional capital of the European Union. Be honest with me.
:01:37. > :01:40.How much attention do you pay to what is happening in British
:01:41. > :01:47.politics right now? Well, we do pay a lot of attention to what is
:01:48. > :01:52.happening there, because we know that the discussion on Brexit is one
:01:53. > :01:57.where time is of the essence. We have a two year period to negotiate
:01:58. > :02:02.a good deal with the United Kingdom, but three months have gone already
:02:03. > :02:07.and the time is ticking. So we are ready to go to the table to have a
:02:08. > :02:11.good negotiation, but I think the moment has come to really start
:02:12. > :02:17.talking, to get beyond the theatrical rhetoric and to get down
:02:18. > :02:24.to business. You say that with such gentility, but I get the sense that
:02:25. > :02:32.frustration is creeping into the EU position. I can quote to you the EU
:02:33. > :02:37.parliament chief participants negotiator in the expected Brexit
:02:38. > :02:42.talks, who also happens to be a former leader of your political
:02:43. > :02:48.party in Belgium. He said this, on Twitter, just a few hours ago. "We
:02:49. > :02:51.Are waiting impatiently for negotiating positions of the UK
:02:52. > :03:00.government, the current uncertainty cannot continue". Do you share that
:03:01. > :03:06.degree of frustration? I shared the degree of impatience. Because, look,
:03:07. > :03:14.we have looked at this election, and I have to reactions. One reaction is
:03:15. > :03:17.that I am reassured, because the whole idea of negotiating an
:03:18. > :03:22.unnecessary hard Brexit, I never understood why this would be to the
:03:23. > :03:28.benefit of the UK citizens or the European citizens. And what I see
:03:29. > :03:32.here is that there is no majority mandate for the negotiation of a
:03:33. > :03:37.hard Brexit. That, I think, is a good thing. The other element is
:03:38. > :03:43.that I am preoccupied, because as I said, time is of the essence. We
:03:44. > :03:52.only have to years for very, very difficult negotiations. We need to
:03:53. > :03:56.be very clear, there is nobody in Brussels who is wanting to punish
:03:57. > :04:01.the UK government or the UK citizens. I think the UK citizens
:04:02. > :04:06.have punished themselves already enough, with political instability,
:04:07. > :04:09.with a disunited kingdom, with a pound sterling which is falling and
:04:10. > :04:17.which is increasing, for example, the cost of going on holiday on the
:04:18. > :04:21.cap a continent. -- on the Continent. I think we have seen
:04:22. > :04:24.enough drawbacks, we are ready to negotiate. I guess that is music to
:04:25. > :04:30.the ears of many in Britain, that you do not see this in any sense to
:04:31. > :04:33.be a form of punishment. But you have maybe inadvertently just
:04:34. > :04:37.entered the most sensitive areas of the British debate right now, about
:04:38. > :04:41.what Brexit means. Because after this election there is no clear
:04:42. > :04:45.sense from the new Parliament, as it is made up today, of where a
:04:46. > :04:49.majority lies in terms of what kind of Brexit is wanted. You say there
:04:50. > :04:54.is clearly no majority for hard Brexit, but many people in Britain
:04:55. > :04:57.say there is no such thing as a soft Brexit. Brexit means that we in
:04:58. > :05:02.Britain have decided we are not repaired any longer to accept the
:05:03. > :05:07.free movement of people or the jurisdiction of the European Court
:05:08. > :05:12.of justice. -- not prepared. We want to govern our own affairs and take
:05:13. > :05:16.control, and that is Brexit. You can call it hard, you can call it soft,
:05:17. > :05:23.you can call it hard baked ash Macca fake, at Brexit is Brexit. -- you
:05:24. > :05:28.can call it hard baked, at Brexit is Brexit. So we should get to the
:05:29. > :05:31.table. We have sent out the first position paper of the European
:05:32. > :05:39.Union. Let's be clear. We are ready to negotiate, and we are ready to
:05:40. > :05:42.negotiate any type of deal that the United Kingdom wants. We have
:05:43. > :05:46.received a letter that says we want to divorce. If one of the partners
:05:47. > :05:50.says they want to divorce, well, that is something that we should
:05:51. > :05:54.accept. Now, what is a problem today is that we get a letter saying we
:05:55. > :05:58.want to divorce and that the same time we hear that actually we want
:05:59. > :06:01.to remarry, because we want to create some kind of working
:06:02. > :06:08.relationship with the European Union. I think for talking about
:06:09. > :06:13.getting remarried we should be clear on the elements, on the principles
:06:14. > :06:17.of the divorce. -- before talking. That is a clear element of
:06:18. > :06:20.negotiation. First we discuss how to divorce and after that we discuss
:06:21. > :06:27.what is the way going forward. I continue to be convinced that
:06:28. > :06:30.despite the Brexit, the UK citizens and the European citizens continue
:06:31. > :06:37.to have more interests in common than interest that would be against
:06:38. > :06:40.each other. Let's talk about the specifics of the divorce agreement
:06:41. > :06:47.as you see it in a moment. Just on this issue of time, we'd talk about
:06:48. > :06:51.Michel Barniet, the chief negotiator for Brexit on the European side. He
:06:52. > :06:55.says it is extraordinary, nothing has happened, three months after you
:06:56. > :06:59.took the decision to trigger Article 50, we have had no negotiations, no
:07:00. > :07:04.sense of what the British government's negotiating position
:07:05. > :07:08.is, and somebody has calculator that is more than 12% of the entire two
:07:09. > :07:11.year period in which this deal is supposed to be done. That has
:07:12. > :07:15.already disappeared. Is it time for people like you, senior political
:07:16. > :07:19.figures in Europe, to say that it is obvious this is not going to get
:07:20. > :07:23.dealt with? It is not going to get negotiated in two years, and we
:07:24. > :07:26.already have to start talking about extending the deadline. Are you
:07:27. > :07:33.prepared to say that today? No. I think we should get started. There
:07:34. > :07:39.was a question for a mandate to negotiate. That mandate was supposed
:07:40. > :07:44.to be strong and stable. Well, the elections have taken place, let's
:07:45. > :07:50.get to the table. I don't think that we Europeans should be in a position
:07:51. > :07:54.to judge what the position will be of the United Kingdom. Hang on a
:07:55. > :07:58.minute. You cannot ignore reality. You know that Theresa May is not
:07:59. > :08:02.strong and stable. UN Belgium no better than anybody that democracy
:08:03. > :08:06.often throws up extraordinarily difficult results which do not allow
:08:07. > :08:11.for stability. -- You in Belgium. That is where we happen to be today
:08:12. > :08:15.in Britain, like it or not, and you are going to have to live with that
:08:16. > :08:18.just as the British people. It may require a second election soon. But
:08:19. > :08:21.you cannot say we demand coherence and stability and a strong
:08:22. > :08:27.government position in Britain if it is simply impossible. But we do not
:08:28. > :08:32.demand anything. There has been a request for Brexit. This was not
:08:33. > :08:36.something that the rest of the EU had asked for. But the United
:08:37. > :08:42.Kingdom as a sovereign country and makes its own choices. A letter
:08:43. > :08:45.referring to Article 50 has been sent, three months ago. It is true
:08:46. > :08:49.that we have been waiting for the last three months, but let's forget
:08:50. > :08:53.about why this happened. What is important for me is that we get to
:08:54. > :08:57.the table and that we start talking. That we start talking about
:08:58. > :09:02.negotiating a good deal. A deal will not be done in two years. Would you
:09:03. > :09:07.at least agree on that? Well, to figure it out, we should at least
:09:08. > :09:12.start. Up to now, what we have heard too much is rhetoric about hard
:09:13. > :09:17.Brexit, soft Brexit, about being generous, one relating to another.
:09:18. > :09:21.For me, it is hard to understand what is really meant by that. At
:09:22. > :09:25.some point we just need to get to the table and start negotiating. And
:09:26. > :09:29.the message from Michel Barniet is quite clear. The European Union is
:09:30. > :09:33.ready, the clock is ticking, so let's get to the table and let's
:09:34. > :09:36.start talking. But Michel Barniet has already said that he thinks the
:09:37. > :09:40.first thing and the only thing that can be on the agenda at the
:09:41. > :09:43.beginning of the price, the divorce costs, before you get to any
:09:44. > :09:50.negotiation of a new and different future deal between Britain and the
:09:51. > :09:53.EU. He has talked about 60 billion euros, others have talked about a
:09:54. > :09:57.figure up to 100 billion euros. You must realise that politically,
:09:58. > :10:02.Theresa May, more than ever, is not in any position to sign off on those
:10:03. > :10:07.sorts of sums of money as a sort of compensation package for the EU. It
:10:08. > :10:12.is just political impossible. -- politically impossible. On
:10:13. > :10:16.principle, the moment you leave a club, I think it is quite normal
:10:17. > :10:20.when you leave a club that you settle the bill. If you will not
:10:21. > :10:23.settle the bill in leaving the club, it basically means that somebody
:10:24. > :10:27.else is going to pay the bill. How fair would that be to the other
:10:28. > :10:32.European citizens, to say, you know, in the end you are going to pay the
:10:33. > :10:38.bills for somebody who, on one side, has decided to leave the club? I
:10:39. > :10:41.think I have seen those numbers ranging from 60 billion euros to 100
:10:42. > :10:47.early in euros. Let's get to the table. Let's put the bill on the
:10:48. > :10:51.table and let's look at what is the most reasonable way of getting to an
:10:52. > :11:01.agreement there. Then we will go further. OK. I don't want to get too
:11:02. > :11:05.bogged down in detailed specifics, but there is a very live debate
:11:06. > :11:11.after the UK election, a very live debate about whether cross-party
:11:12. > :11:16.consensus in the UK can be found for the notion that we actually tried to
:11:17. > :11:22.stay inside the European single market, but negotiate an
:11:23. > :11:26.unprecedented sort of get out clause that would ameliorate the
:11:27. > :11:30.difficulties Britain has with the freedom of movement of labour. Can
:11:31. > :11:36.you imagine such a one-off special deal being offered to Britain? Stay
:11:37. > :11:41.in the single market, but get some concessions on freedom of movement?
:11:42. > :11:48.Look, I think in general, we are open to negotiate deals ranging
:11:49. > :11:52.from, on one side, being part of the single market, but you have to
:11:53. > :11:55.understand that one, you want to be part of the single market, it also
:11:56. > :12:01.means that you respect the four freedoms. -- that when you want to
:12:02. > :12:04.be part. That is the movement of people, capital, goods and services.
:12:05. > :12:08.And of course you also accept the authority of the European Court of
:12:09. > :12:11.justice and the European Commission. Deputy Prime Minister, you are
:12:12. > :12:20.ignoring my question. Can you imagine a press spoke, tailored deal
:12:21. > :12:24.which allows Britain some opt out for leniency on some of those four
:12:25. > :12:30.pillars you have just outlined? -- bespoke, tailored deal. I think it
:12:31. > :12:34.is hard to do cherry picking. The European Union is not a supermarket
:12:35. > :12:38.where you can go in and say, you know, this is the one ingredient I
:12:39. > :12:44.want and all the rest of it, I do not want to be part of this. Being
:12:45. > :12:50.part of the single market is of course one choice that can be made,
:12:51. > :12:55.but there are certain consequences to that, of course. And if this is
:12:56. > :13:01.what the UK negotiators want to negotiate, let's get to the table
:13:02. > :13:05.and exchange views on that. There is an opposite view, which is the hard
:13:06. > :13:10.Brexit, where you basically say that you do not even want a customs
:13:11. > :13:15.union. But up to now, for us Europeans and for the European chief
:13:16. > :13:21.negotiator, it is unclear what the option is that will be brought to
:13:22. > :13:27.the table. Let's at least be clear on what you basically want, and then
:13:28. > :13:30.we can discuss it. One thing which Theresa May's negotiating team was
:13:31. > :13:35.insistent upon before the election, and some of them are still saying,
:13:36. > :13:41.but not all of them, is that in the end, from Britain point of view, no
:13:42. > :13:44.deal is better than a bad deal, and they are ultimately prepared to walk
:13:45. > :13:48.away from the table to get to the two-year deadline and, in a sense,
:13:49. > :13:56.fall off and EU cliff and have Britain outside the EU was no
:13:57. > :13:59.negotiate -- with no negotiated trade deal. It seems to me that
:14:00. > :14:03.there is no question, even for those to advocate that position, that it
:14:04. > :14:07.would be damaging to the UK economy. But have you considered just a
:14:08. > :14:10.damaging it would be to the EU economy as well? Not just because
:14:11. > :14:15.you wouldn't get this payoff that you want of a 100 billion euros of
:14:16. > :14:19.divorce settlement, but also the impact on European trade, on
:14:20. > :14:24.European growth, you can't afford for that to happen, can you?
:14:25. > :14:33.Honestly, I think we need to take a step back and see as politicians why
:14:34. > :14:37.are we doing our jobs. We are doing our jobs because we want to create
:14:38. > :14:40.an environment which is good for our citizens, which creates prosperity
:14:41. > :14:45.for our citizens, which create security and peace for our citizens.
:14:46. > :14:50.And what I would want to avoid it is that this whole Brexit discussion is
:14:51. > :14:56.about political parties, is about governments, and so on. I do not
:14:57. > :15:00.think that aiming for no deal would actually be something that is in the
:15:01. > :15:04.interests of the security of the British and European citizens. And I
:15:05. > :15:09.think a UK perspective, there is a choice to be made. We live in a
:15:10. > :15:14.global world. And I think in a global world, at some point, you
:15:15. > :15:20.have to make an evaluation and say who are my allies? Who is the person
:15:21. > :15:28.they see as an ally? Is Donald Trump and Ally? Is that it viewed in an
:15:29. > :15:33.ally? Is Emmanuel Macron or Angela Merkel and Ally? I would go with
:15:34. > :15:43.Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron any day. -- an ally. But that is a
:15:44. > :15:52.decision that the United Kingdom is to make. A very interesting
:15:53. > :15:56.perspective. And I want to come back to those global point you made. I
:15:57. > :15:59.don't want this entire interview to be just about Britain, that would
:16:00. > :16:05.not be right, given your position in Europe. But a final point on
:16:06. > :16:08.Britain, in your heart of hearts, do you still think it is possible that
:16:09. > :16:11.Britain will actually reversed its decision, and decide that it does
:16:12. > :16:18.not want to leave the European Union? Who am I to judge? If I would
:16:19. > :16:25.be a British citizen, then I have the right to vote, and the right to
:16:26. > :16:29.be a part of this debate. I am not. And I think that this is a choice
:16:30. > :16:33.that has been made in the United Kingdom. I believe that no deal
:16:34. > :16:36.would be very bad for the UK citizens, and would be bad for
:16:37. > :16:41.European citizens. I believe it would be worse than the UK citizen
:16:42. > :16:49.and the EU citizen, but being Belgian, a small economy, who
:16:50. > :16:53.believes in free trade, with most of our economy dependent on trade, and
:16:54. > :17:01.the large but dependent on the United Kingdom, I believe that this
:17:02. > :17:05.whole session with maybe no deal, I don't see how this could be to the
:17:06. > :17:09.benefit of the citizens. Citing this as a political debate. But it is too
:17:10. > :17:16.important to make this only a political debate. -- so I think this
:17:17. > :17:28.is. A wider argument, let's think about where the EU is going up. --
:17:29. > :17:32.going now. Man U Micron, where he is going, and Angela Merkel, and
:17:33. > :17:36.perhaps you can extrapolate this to the Brits who are dragging their
:17:37. > :17:44.feet, Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel are talking about unity on
:17:45. > :17:53.the security and fiscal side, do you think that that is where the EU is
:17:54. > :18:00.going next -- Emmanuel Micron? I prefer having the British people on
:18:01. > :18:05.the table. On a lot of topics, they are an ally. They are an ally in
:18:06. > :18:10.discussions on free trade, and very often, they are at an ally when it
:18:11. > :18:16.comes to foreign policy. But they are absolutely not an ally, when it
:18:17. > :18:21.comes to further integration of the European project. Emmanuel Macron is
:18:22. > :18:24.now talking about his vision of a Finance Minister co-ordinating
:18:25. > :18:30.fiscal policy across the European Union. He, I think it is that to
:18:31. > :18:34.say, definitely has a vision of a European army, European security and
:18:35. > :18:39.foreign policy, heavily integrated. Britain was never followed. Britain
:18:40. > :18:46.was on its way out to the accident. This seems to be the Franco-German
:18:47. > :18:51.vision of where to take the European Union. I think this is their
:18:52. > :18:56.catharsis moment. Brexit was a catharsis moment. But equally so the
:18:57. > :18:59.election Donald Trump, and the United States lead in the Paris
:19:00. > :19:03.Climate Agreement. I think these are all defining moment. And it comes at
:19:04. > :19:09.a moment where there is a new leadership standing up in Europe. I
:19:10. > :19:17.believe that the European project is much stronger than some people
:19:18. > :19:24.thought it was. We need more Europe? Yes. To tackle... But have you seen
:19:25. > :19:26.the opinion polls? These polls have asked people if they want more
:19:27. > :19:34.treaties, more Europe, and in Germany, France, the Holland, Spain,
:19:35. > :19:38.and others, the response is, overwhelmingly, no. Let's see how
:19:39. > :19:45.you asked the question. If you look at whether the -- if you look at the
:19:46. > :19:50.big themes of the world today. Climate change. Terror. Handling
:19:51. > :19:55.migration. Everybody knows that there is no country that can handle
:19:56. > :19:59.it on itself. Isaby can say that we want some parts in Europe which are
:20:00. > :20:12.less, I can agree. I want less European democracy, it yes. -- I can
:20:13. > :20:20.certainly say it, that we have some parts in Europe which one less, I
:20:21. > :20:25.can agree. In working together, for certain causes, however, I think we
:20:26. > :20:29.find each other. And I honestly think that in the discussion with
:20:30. > :20:34.the United Kingdom, we will come back on certain topics. Yes, we have
:20:35. > :20:37.to discuss Brexit. But when we are fighting terror, we have the same
:20:38. > :20:41.interests. And instead of what we see from time to time, when there is
:20:42. > :20:45.unfortunate terrorist attacks, trying to blame one another, I would
:20:46. > :20:49.rather put my energy, instead of blaming one another, and you seen
:20:50. > :20:54.what we can do together, can we work together to get a better solution?
:20:55. > :20:56.System in this conversation you have chosen an internationalist
:20:57. > :21:01.perspective, and you have talked about worrying trends that you see
:21:02. > :21:05.in the United States and Russia and elsewhere, but, as a senior member
:21:06. > :21:10.of a government in Belgium which is failing to meet some of its most
:21:11. > :21:15.basic international obligations, I just wonder how strong the ground is
:21:16. > :21:20.that you are currently standing on. For example, in Nato terms, Belgium
:21:21. > :21:26.has an appalling record of failing to meet the 2% of GDP threshold on
:21:27. > :21:33.to phase -- on defence expenditure. Only Luxembourg, pro rata, spend
:21:34. > :21:36.less on defence than you do. And on international aid, your own
:21:37. > :21:41.portfolio, you are only record of getting anywhere near to the 0.7% of
:21:42. > :21:48.GDP spent on international aid, that is terrible. You are at 0.49%.
:21:49. > :21:55.Belgium is not stepping up when it comes to its international
:21:56. > :21:58.obligations. On defence, our Prime Minister has been clear on the fact
:21:59. > :22:08.that we will step up and invest more. When we are talking about
:22:09. > :22:12.foreign policy, I think that you need to sit in a broad perspective.
:22:13. > :22:16.If we have had positive revolution in the world over the past ten
:22:17. > :22:20.years, where has it come from? The reason number one is trade. And when
:22:21. > :22:27.we talk about trade cover the European Union is second to none, in
:22:28. > :22:31.relation to trade, and inward and outward investment. That is all very
:22:32. > :22:35.interesting, but you seem to be avoiding my point that Belgium has
:22:36. > :22:38.signed up to specific international obligations. Let's talk about your
:22:39. > :22:43.own portfolio, before we Vanish. Belgium has said that it wants to
:22:44. > :22:48.meet the 0.7% of GDP in two international aid, but time and
:22:49. > :22:52.again, it has failed, and you have been crowing about how you are going
:22:53. > :22:59.to cut the aid budget by another 270 million euros by 2019. -- we vanish.
:23:00. > :23:04.I just don't see how you can then stand before me and said that you in
:23:05. > :23:08.Belgium are committed to the internationalist agenda. What I
:23:09. > :23:17.wanted to say before you cut me off was that the internationalist
:23:18. > :23:25.agenda, in my view, is more spending criteria on defence and aid. Yes, we
:23:26. > :23:30.need to step out our investment, and we need to do investments. But if
:23:31. > :23:33.you look at what happened today, what makes a difference, it is open
:23:34. > :23:37.democracies, it is trade, it is investing in the least developed
:23:38. > :23:44.countries, which is somewhere where it Belgium is contravening the rest
:23:45. > :23:48.of the world, it is too easy to judge countries on spending
:23:49. > :23:53.criteria. Let's also see what we're doing. Minister, we are doing. The
:23:54. > :24:04.thank you very a much indeed were joining us on HARDtalk My pleasure.
:24:05. > :24:15.-- Thank you very a much indeed for joining us on HARDtalk.
:24:16. > :24:26.The middle of the week is going to bring a peak
:24:27. > :24:31.You could describe it as very warm across many parts of the country.
:24:32. > :24:34.Especially across southern areas of England and Wales